An Analysis of the Yorktown Heights T 206 PSA 8 E-Bay Auction [Archive]

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09-15-2006, 03:05 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskind The strength of the market for super high grade pre WW II cards can not be questioned. Even when said cards are auctioned on E Bay they continue to bring prices that ran range between very impressive and simply astounding. The great caution, as we have indicated on numerous occassions is that the market remains relatively thin. Let's look at the results Total number of T 206 PSA 8 cards auctioned on September 13 17 Total value of prices realized $90,391 Average price realized per lot $ 5,317 Note: There were 5 cards with a pop 1 They represented 44% of the total value $ 39.444 Averaged price realzied for a "pop 1" $ 7.889 Average price realized for the 12 non "pop" 1 psa 8 T206 $4,4245 Number of collectors who won 1 or more items 6 Three well known "set registry" collectors won 14 of the 17 items Each of these collectors finished second on one item One collector won only 1 lot but finished 2nd 8 times In 13 of the 17 lots, the four major players were both the winner and runner-up We'd be interested to hear your comments regarding this auction and its implications for other high grade pre-war collectors Best, Bruce Dorskind America's Toughest Want List

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09-15-2006, 06:05 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIf the market is indeed thin then some of the prices you see may be unreliable as indicators of the state of the market. The deeper the market is and the more people who collect in a particular area, the more reliable the information is.

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09-15-2006, 06:57 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner Hi Bruce, What the EBAY system doesn't show, is the number of snipe bids that were never placed. I bid on 4 of the cards, but my snipe bid of 4500 at 3 sec was already beat by 2 people with bids of more than 9000. It's quite possible that 3-4 people had snipe bids in the 5000-8500 that we will also never see. The market for super high graded T206's and low pop's maybe be thin, but it's more than 3-4 people, it's probably closer to 15-20. In the last few months I've sold several 8's offline to several different high grade collectors, who did not bid on these cards. Or if they did, there snipes were too low. Be well Brian

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09-15-2006, 07:45 AM

Posted By: martindl My first thought in watching the cards go one by one was "sheer registry madness". These are some great condition cards and I think I understand why some people find appeal in the registry, but I question the sanity of the differential in prices attained (value?) based largely on the population reports. For the high grade pre-war collector I think the impications will be severe the minute a matching grade card comes to the market and that Pop 1 suddenly becomes a 1-of-2. You can never be assurred of having that highest graded card, so why pay such a premium for the current highest?

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09-15-2006, 07:55 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThe highest grade lowest pop cards have the best shot at achieving record setting prices but also exhibit the greatest volatility. The same card in VG-EX will trade at a fairly consistent level and there will never be a shortage of buyers. I'm not saying there is a shortage of high end buyers, just that there is a greater likelihood of price swings.

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09-15-2006, 08:35 AM

Posted By: jay behrensHow come the Dorkskin group didn't win any of these cards if they are such great cards to own? You spent money on a pedestrian Double Play card, but won't pony up for t206s? To quote an old movie line, "Show me the money" cuz we certainly don't see you spending it on anything more impresive than Double Play cards. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-15-2006, 08:55 AM

Posted By: joe brennanIf these 4 or 5 collectors obtain all the cards that they need to fill their sets the real price of these cards will be realized by the people that under bid at $4-5K. I think the prices are inflated by a select few. JMO People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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09-15-2006, 09:28 AM

Posted By: peter ullmanwhile I agree with most opinions thus far...since the hobby is everexpanding and growing...despite the fact that a select few registry types are certainly driving prices into the stratosphere...this sect of the hobby should be growing to a degree as well...just like the rest of the hobby. so...yes...the prices are ridiculous...and volatile...but shouldn't they remain relatively stable. just playing devils advocate. pete ullman

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09-15-2006, 10:17 AM

Posted By: warshawlawstay the hell out of boxing cards! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-15-2006, 05:53 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Although I would like to (and do) believe that the market for Vintage, pre-War cards is hot, the utter madness of the PSA 8's and 9's is not an accurate representation, overall. Only a handful of people collect these cards (or can afford them) and are clearly in a league of their own. Similar to other statistical analyses, the high figure(s) and low figure(s) are omitted in determining a true picture. So...As encouraging (and discouragining, as I simply can't afford these cards) as this trend is, I don't think the orgy over multi-thousand dollar cards is (necessarily) representative of pre-War issues in general.

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09-15-2006, 06:02 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI wonder if the same bidders were bidding on the high grade E93 Group in mastro?

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09-15-2006, 06:31 PM

Posted By: barrysloateCobby made a good point, and that is it is as if the people buying these cards are transacting as members of a completely different hobby. There is no intersection between what they purchase and what the typical collector buys.

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09-15-2006, 07:37 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesBased on the data you presented, Bruce, a pop 1 PSA8 t206 purchase puts less than half of the purchase price at risk. To evaluate this risk vs. a potential reward, we would have to be able to estimate the potential reward. Although this can not be forcasted accurately, Id estimate that reward (if the cards remain 1 of 1s) as 2x the purchase price. As Jay points out, based on your option to not bid, you clearly are seeking a better situation, or you disagree with my analysis. Please explain your assessment. Edited to add: Useful information which I do not have includes - % t206 population currently graded above PSA8.

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09-15-2006, 09:38 PM

Posted By: Dan KravitzThat was not necessary. Let's have a little respect for fellow collectors who post on this board. Every person on this board has a different style that should be respected. It would suck if we all collected the same thing. Come on!

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09-15-2006, 11:53 PM

Posted By: Cobby33What'd I miss??? See what happens when I step out for a moment!

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09-16-2006, 12:30 AM

Posted By: jay behrensDamn, what did I miss? Leon, shoot me a copy if it still exists. I need some good humor after a bad night of bowling. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-16-2006, 06:00 AM

Posted By: leonWhomever "lentel" is made a sharp jab at a board member and did it anonymously. Remember, if you want to jab, you better put your real name by it, or be well known by your net54 handle. Personal attacks should, for the most part, be kept off the board. We all know there have been heated arguments before but not anonymously..Each situation is considered when enforcing rules....as every situation is different...The rules are there for a reason...It's actually been fairly tame lately, which is good by me......kind regards

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09-17-2006, 07:21 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellThanks Bruce, There is no better investment than high grade vintage cards--the results of this seem to fly in the face of the assertion by some that high grade T206's are trimmed--or at least it shows that high-end collectors do not care if they are(unlikely). This represents another leg up for T206 high-grade prices. I will consider any offers for my T206s(150 or so PSA 8s) on the PSA Set Registry that are in line with these prices. Wonderful example of the economic benefits of grading cards. Jim

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09-17-2006, 08:14 AM

Posted By: jay behrens--the results of this seem to fly in the face of the assertion by some that high grade T206's are trimmed--or at least it shows that high-end collectors do not care if they are(unlikely). Jim, go ahead and keep your head buried in the sand. Just don't come crying to us or anyone else if the collecting world finally wises up and quits bidding on the obviously trimmed cards that reside in PSA holders. There are far to many knowledgable people on this board that know there trimmed cards in PSA 8 and higher holders to just dismiss these claims out of hand. Then again, you are the perfect example of buying the flip and not the card. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-17-2006, 10:19 AM

Posted By: Anonymous.

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09-17-2006, 10:36 AM

Posted By: JoannOK, you guys are starting to convince me. If the Spade (link to ebay auction in post above) turned up on ebay raw, with a seller I didn't know, I don't think I'd bid $15 on it. Really. That slanted top border would put me off it in two seconds. I obviously can't say whether it is trimmed or not - I have no idea. But I know I wouldn't give it a second look raw. Hmmm. Maybe I should be rethinking that if they sell for $2K+ in a PSA 8 slab. Joann

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09-17-2006, 10:37 AM

Posted By: ItsStillOnlyGilCertainly you realize that if you are unresponsive, that is what your inquirys will yield. To reiterate: To evaluate this risk vs. a potential reward, we would have to be able to estimate the potential reward. Although this can not be forcasted accurately, Id estimate that reward (if the cards remain 1 of 1s) as 2x the purchase price. Please identify your analysis.

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09-17-2006, 12:32 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Let's see...Perfectly-straight borders and 70/30 vertical centering???

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09-17-2006, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundJim, If "there is no better investment than high grade vintage cards", why would you consider offers for you PSA 8 T206's that are in line with current prices? Why not hang onto them if, as you say, there is no better investment?

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09-17-2006, 01:27 PM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockMy 2 cents worth: *If I bought cards with consideration to risk-reward ratios I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Cards to me are a hobby and one of the purposes of a hobby is to divert our attention from what keeps us awake at night! *It is ironic that the prices some graded cards bring have created an incentive to trim cards and hope that they grade high when one stated purpose of the grading services was to protect the buyer from trimmed cards. *The average price Bruce cites, $5317, is eye-popping. If I were to spend that much on a single card it wouldn't be a T206 common. No offense to those who do. These T206s are very rare in PSA 8 condition, but the cards themselves, condition aside, are not particularly rare. To put such a premium on what amounts to sharp corners, for my budget, would mean that I would have a very small collection. *I try to keep it simple. I buy cards that I like. I bought some cards at the National which I had never seen before and might never see again. Did I overpay? Probably. Did I have fun? Yes. Do I enjoy the cards? Yes. Can I sleep at night? Yes.

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09-17-2006, 01:35 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBruce- as I mentioned earlier on this thread, the way you collect and the way set registry people collect are for all practical purposes two completely different hobbies. You collect in an interesting manner looking for scarce or rare material and to a degree keep an eye on some type of reasonable budget. Set registry people have an awful lot of money and it is important for them to say they own the best. Whether it is an investment issue or simply a way of proving self worth, it's tough to say. But it's two different philosophies altogether. The only thing that connects them is the pursuit of something baseball.

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09-17-2006, 01:40 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Amen, brother.

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09-17-2006, 01:41 PM

Posted By: cmokingSet registry people are a very big population - perhaps more than a thousand people have sets registered at PSA. A very very very very very small percentage of those are involved in paying 5K+ for a PSA 8 T206 common. Perhaps only 5 people. Those 5 people are not typical of all set registry people - they are their own subset to themselves.

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09-17-2006, 01:57 PM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockAnother good point. I have one set registered, almost by accident. I have ten Tango Eggs which were already PSA graded when I bought them individually so I went ahead and joined the registry. Ten cards is only half the set but this was enough to put me at number two. I haven't added a card in nine years.

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09-17-2006, 02:06 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThere are many ways to look at this phenomenon, and let me posit one: If I am not mistaken, one of the PSA-8 on Bruce's list was Lattimore, and if memory is correct it sold for $7700. I looked at it on ebay and I will not deny that it is a very sharp looking card. Now let's say I too wanted a Lattimore but only had $50 to spend. I could probably get a nice VG-EX that would have no creases and a bit of softness at the four corners. Using this example, it would cost me an extra $7650 to get the same exact card with the corners squared. Call me naive, but gentlemen, you sure aren't getting very much for your money. I know, I know, some collectors will settle for nothing less than best...but other than the fact that there will be some other guy who will probably pay more for it six months down the road because he too won't settle for anything less than the best, are you really getting your money's worth? I won't even go into the fact that Lattimore is among the most boring players in the T206 set.

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09-17-2006, 03:52 PM

Posted By: Steve M.residing in SGC "A" holders. Beautiful cards, including a Johnson Pitching, McGraw Finger in Air, Lundgren Chicago and Powers. All appear right, maybe a teeny bit short? Do not appear trimmed. What say I crack them out and submit to PSA and let's see. Anyone want to take bets on results?

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09-17-2006, 04:03 PM

Posted By: cmokingI may be intersted in gambling. What terms are you looking for?

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09-17-2006, 04:11 PM

Posted By: Steve M.get its initial fee submission package. Will submit 10. Over-under is 4. I'll let you pick. I win, you pay grading fees. You win, I'll buy your book.

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09-17-2006, 04:17 PM

Posted By: cmokingThat's it? I thought this was for real money. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'll take Under 4 (out of 10 or 11 cards) are graded with a numerical grade. Here's what I want from you: - send me scans of the cards in the SGC Authentic holders - once you have it submitted, give me the PSA submission number and your zip code so I can track along with you on PSA's site - tell me how much your total grading fees + shipping fees are ahead of time my email is cmoking@yahoo.com If more than 4 grade, I'll happily pay for your grading fees. Win or lose, I'd be happy to send you a copy of my book.

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09-17-2006, 04:20 PM

Posted By: JimBAre the "set registry people" the handful of big names in the hobby with collections worth many millions or the majority of people on the registry with much more humble collections? I think there is a tendancy to draw large conclusions about broad and diverse groups of collectors. More often than not the broad strokes and generalizations do not tend to be accurate when applied to individuals. I have a high-grade E93 set on the registry which I mostly put together before the caramel craze of the past few years. I don't consider myself a "set registry person" but many here may think of me that way by virtue of putting one set on the registry. I did it mostly because it has been a great way to hear from other caramel collectors and to get wind of available cards that would fill holes in my set. The vast majority of my collection is not high grade like that set. JimB

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09-17-2006, 04:22 PM

Posted By: Steve M.and a 4 is a push. I'm going out tonight but will email you the scans tomorrow. Terms acceptable.

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09-17-2006, 04:23 PM

Posted By: cmokingExcellent. This will be fun. I will leave it up to you whether you want the results to be public. I won't say anything either way.

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09-17-2006, 04:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSteve and King- that's a really funny bet you two guys have going. But watch out for King- he's a professional!

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09-17-2006, 04:28 PM

Posted By: Steve M.I can hold my own. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (jacklitsch a/k/a 2005XKR)

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09-17-2006, 04:29 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- I agree that it is not a good policy to stereotype any group, even the set registry crowd, but would it be fair to categorize the people who spend several thousand dollars on each T206 common as very wealthy? Some may be wealthier than others, but can we say all of them have deep pockets?

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09-17-2006, 04:30 PM

Posted By: barrysloateMaybe I should lay a bet on who will win your bet. Are there odds on each of you?

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09-17-2006, 04:33 PM

Posted By: Steve M.underdog. 4 to 1 but it will be fun to see. The cards residing in SGC "A"'s don't do much for me anyway.

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09-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Posted By: cmokingYou may be an underdog - but you stand to lose nothing! A complete free-roll...great bet for you. So what do I get out of it? Some interesting info for myself. That's worth it for me. Looking forward to it.

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09-17-2006, 04:37 PM

Posted By: Steve M.it will be an interesting experiment one way or the other. I'm out of here, wife is screaming at me, so I'll get those scans out tomorrow.

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09-17-2006, 04:40 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI want in on this action. I say less than four of them come back graded, and I'll wager a vanilla milkshake (that's my standard bet, I never wager more than I can afford).

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09-17-2006, 05:04 PM

Posted By: JimBBarry, Sure, somebody who spends thousands of dollars on T206 common has deep pockets. But most people on this board have discretionary income that they spend on cards, whether that be $30/month or $30,000/month. We can judge either by saying that it would be a lot better to give that money to charity. But who are we to judge the taste of different collectors? I would love to have a PSA 8 T206 set. It probably won't happen, but not for lack of desire. JimB

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09-17-2006, 06:55 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI just find it fascinating that people are willing to pay multi-thousands of dollars for T206 commons. I just can't fathom why they do it. Doesn't make it wrong, just leaves me baffled.

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09-17-2006, 07:39 PM

Posted By: jay behrensNo one is saying that every trimmed card submitted to PSA get slabbed with a number. What we are pointing out is that far too many trimmed cards ARE getting slabbed. I don't card what volume of business you are doing, if your business is to detect cards, then none should be getting through. We shouldn't be seeing the large number of questionable cards that we do in high grade PSA holders. And yes, we are aware of size variations in the cards, but don't you find it curious that it's only the short cards that survive in high grade? Take a look at population of t206s in general. There should be a roughly equal number of short and long cards, since cutting a card short means making another card long. Yet if you look at all the t206s out there, oversized t206s are few and far between, yet you see an inordinate number of short cards. A lot this can be traced back to when Jim Copeland started paying huge money for NM t206s. I saw many collectors and dealers running around shows looking for oversized t206s they could trim down and hopefully pass off on Copeland or one of his buyers. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-17-2006, 10:30 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellJay, I think you are the one that's crying--I have no reason to cry--my psa 8s have probably risen 20-fold on average since I bought them. Face it, the trend of the industry is graded cards--my point is if in fact some of the T206s are trimmed and they got in PSA holders(which is undoubtedly true), the market does not seem to care. Educate yourself and adapt. Barry and others, There are a few set registry people who have thrown tremendous amounts of money into high-grade vintage cards. Why not? It has been a tremendous investment. Why not build the worlds greatest set of what many feel is the greatest set ever made? To do that you are going to have to pay $6-$10,000 for pop 1 psa 8 commmons. For someone who is worth what these guys undoubtedly are that is not a big investment. Jim

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09-17-2006, 10:49 PM

Posted By: ElliotI would also point out that if Steve submitted each if those 10 cards 25 times and just once got one PSA 8 he would be ahead of the game financially. I've got to believe that sooner or later, if he kept resubmitting most of his 10 or 11 would get a numerical grade. I'm sure the Spade and Tannehill didn't get an 8 the first time around, but sooner or later.....

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09-17-2006, 11:41 PM

Posted By: Cobby33If I worked at PSA and kept seeing the same cards over and over, I'd give them all 1's for posterity's sake and move on with my life. At least they'd get #'s.

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09-17-2006, 11:55 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJim, I'm not crying at all. No idea why you get that idea. I would also be willing to bet that I've got a better return on my money invested into cards than you do. As I pointed out in another post, I have just a little over a $1500 out of pocket expense on my collection. You can go back to that other thread to see some of the highlights of what I have. Here's a challenge for you, take $1500 and five years and see if you can build a collection that can come anywhere to close to mine. For some reason, I really doubt you could, mainly because you lack the knowledge to be able to do so. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-18-2006, 12:48 AM

Posted By: DJWhat other collectible in the world, can the very exact item be purchased for $10 or sell for as high as high as $20-30,000? Barry hit my thoughts EXACTLY and I guess it all comes down to being old school: Barry wrote: If I am not mistaken, one of the PSA-8 on Bruce's list was Lattimore, and if memory is correct it sold for $7700. I looked at it on ebay and I will not deny that it is a very sharp looking card. Now let's say I too wanted a Lattimore but only had $50 to spend. I could probably get a nice VG-EX that would have no creases and a bit of softness at the four corners. Using this example, it would cost me an extra $7650 to get the same exact card with the corners squared. I'm baffled as well. Questions about PSA8's. -Is he a player you admire that you want to collect in that high of grade? -Are you planning on putting together a PSA8 set? -Couldn't you just buy a pretty nice VG-VG+ set for around $35,000 and be satisfied? -524 cards versus say 7 or 8 "commons"? -Do you tell people that you have the only T206 PSA8 of _____ in the world at dinner parties? -What if another one shows up in the market place? -What kind of increase do you expect on these cards? -Will that common be worth $6,000 next year and $10,000 the year after that? After all, what did the George Davis PSA8 sell for in Mastro? Something like $4,500? Davis, a Hall Of Famer, but because of the silly population he sells for less than a "common"? Makes sense to me. My two cents...this is a fun thread and I look forward to the outcome of the challenge. DJ

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09-18-2006, 01:04 AM

Posted By: BcDso many pedestrian collectors with not so tough want lists! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-18-2006, 01:17 AM

Posted By: John_B_CaliforniaHere's a T206 SGC 20 Bender that is quite short s/s, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-T-206-Chief-Bender-Portrait-HOF-SGC-20-Nice_W0QQitemZ150029366946QQihZ005QQcategoryZ57993 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-T-206-Chief-Bender-Portrait-HOF-SGC-20-Nice_W0QQitemZ150029366946QQihZ005QQcategoryZ57993 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a> And yet some fit exactly, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/CHIEF-BENDER-T206-TREES-SWEET-CAPORAL-SGC-GAI-5_W0QQitemZ190031499532QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31718QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/CHIEF-BENDER-T206-TREES-SWEET-CAPORAL-SGC-GAI-5_W0QQitemZ190031499532QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31718QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a> PSA certainly makes mistakes, and no one will get it 100% right all the time. Mastro has made mistakes (witness the Oscar statue fake this year), Lelands, no one is operating at 1,000 percent. If it was as easy as taking an oversized card and trimming it down, I would have expected to see... -More and more cards coming to the marketplace as prices have risen. It would be interesting to see changes in the pop report as prices have gone up. Goudey commons have exploded in value over the past 5-7 years (some up 1,000%+ and yet the numbers aren't even close to satisfying demand). -Previously rare cards becoming easy. George C Millers, T204s, etc. That would make me pause. -Greater discrepancies between the pop numbers of high dollar sets vs low dollar. Consider 1933 Goudey Indian Gum vs '33 Goudey baseball. The Indian Gum set has a higher percentage of 7's, 8's and 9's as a percent of the total cards submitted (.22, .176, .0059 vs .12, .09, .0057). '38 Horror of War vs '38 Goudey (.189, .209, .016 vs .16, .13, .007). Some of the non sport numbers are very high ('35 Mickey Mouse, .33 of all cards submitted are an 8). The comparisons aren't perfect. The high dollar baseball figures are more likely to be inflated by crackouts and resubmissions. Low dollar non sport cards aren't as likely to be submitted (not as much registry demand). But something to consider in this debate...

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09-18-2006, 05:41 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think what this thread has shown us is that there are many different philosophies about how people like to collect. The guy who spends $7700 is likely to be happy with his purchase and the guy who spends $50 for his may be so too. It's really not a matter of who is right and who is wrong. This has and always will be a provocative topic.

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09-18-2006, 06:34 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, Couldn't agree more. DJ-- In response, 1)Nobody admires Lattimore--anyone who is paying $6-$10K for a psa 8 common is trying to do the set in 8. 2)Unless there are no other examples available,high end collectors do not want off condition cards. 3)524 vs 7-8 psa 8 copmmons--certainly not--they want all 524 in psa 8 4)There is a lot of competition to want to have the best set in existense and for the popular sets they virtually all exist on the psa set registry. %)High-end collectors of collectibles will always be paying a lot more for quality and that is what is at work here. Jay, Good for you. You said if I came crying about my cards going down in price. Trust me--I will not cry--at least to you,

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09-18-2006, 06:57 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- here's a question for you based on your last post: do you think that these set registry people really love the process of collecting, or has it become more of an exercise of outdoing the competition and being able to say "I am the best?" Again, I find the "I have to be the best" philosophy interesting, and that's why I think the topic is provocative. Do they like T206's or do they like feeling one up on everyone else? Not saying you have the answer, just curious to hear your opinion.

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09-18-2006, 07:20 AM

Posted By: leonPlease email me about something......thanks for participating ... I would like to have a chat....best regards

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09-18-2006, 07:39 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellBarry, I sense it is a combination. 1)First, I think these are very competitive people. They are very successful businessmen who probably got where they are in part by being so competitive. Its hard to turn it on and off. I( by no means am I putting myself in the category of collectors who will spend $10K for a T206 PSA 8 common but from time to time I find myself straying from my basic goal of completing sets in PSA 8 and better to getting ahead of a certain collector. The Set Registry will do that to you. 2)These people do love the sport and have a real passion for collecting. They are big baseball fans--I know of one guy who just did a fantasy camp that is one of the leading vintage collectors. 3)As you know, the trend in America has been the creation of a significant group of people who are extremely wealthy. Whether it is from stock options, Wall Street, the tech boom or just being a successful entrepreneur, there is a pretty good size group of people to whom $10,000 is like $10 to you and me. Some people you just cannot outbid on ebay. 4)Lastly, the whole concept of grading cards has validated cards as an investment.10-15 years ago high-end vintage cards were going for a song as collectors had completely lost confidence in whether the cards were altered in some way. While some would argue that altered cards still get through, grading has given wealthy collectors the confidence to step up and put millions into the hobby. Jim

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09-18-2006, 07:44 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesYour lawn gets brown spots, your tires go flat, your garage door opener don't open the door, almost eberything in life is imperfect (and deteriorating). However, a PSA8 t206 common is virtually fault free, won't deteriorate and can be yours - maybe the only thing in your pitiful existence with quality and staying power. (I hope your kids are good, but maybe not). And for several grand -- why not have one thing of quality? Not for snoot value, not because only the best will do, just because you can have one thing nearly perfect, or two, or more.

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09-18-2006, 07:46 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim- that was a well thought out response and I agree with everything you said. You would think a lot of these Type A personalities would need an outlet like collecting baseball cards to unwind and relax, but collecting for them is just an extension of their need to be the best at everything. To them, that's a 24/7 job. Everyone is different, I suppose.

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09-18-2006, 07:50 AM

Posted By: warshawlawor is it thread? I agree that the high grade set registry folks don't collect the same way as the rest of us but I wouldn't say they are of a different hobby altogether. Many of them take just as much pride and enjoy themselves just as much as I do. One thing I do note is that the folks who do these high grade/high price sets are not the ones touting the "investment" end of things. They realize that they are collecting cards they will likely die with and just don't make a big deal of it. The investment cheerleading seems to be the purview of others. It seems to me that if you have to actively worry about whether you can resell these supposedly fantastic investments, you probably shouldn't be claiming to collect them; what you are really doing is investing in them. And that's a totally different story. I realize I am generalizing but that doesn't make me wrong. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get me.

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09-18-2006, 08:21 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusSuppose the 8 Lattimore clearly did not look like an 8 (which I'm not saying is the case but just hypothesizing to raise an issue). Do you think the card would have ended up selling for any less or is the set collector mentality completely focused on buying the holder and not the card? Or, to put it another way, while it is all well and good for a well-heeled set collector to want to say he/she owns the best T206 set, would he/she still get the same enjoyment out of that if he/she really felt that a number of the cards are overgraded?

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09-18-2006, 08:28 AM

Posted By: jay behrensJim, I assume from your nonresponse that you won't be takingme up on my challenge? Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-18-2006, 08:37 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCorey, My experience is that it has some impact in certain situations but if it is a weak 8 and a pop 1 probably no impact. Jim

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09-18-2006, 09:31 AM

Posted By: JimBMy questions are: 1. Why does everybody care so much about what a small percentage of collectors are paying for cards that you, yourself are not interested in? 2. Why is there such a moralizing tone to the arguments? I don't see any of the subjects of this debate coming on and questioning why collectors buy lower condition cards. JimB

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09-18-2006, 09:46 AM

Posted By: leonI think people like to debate this topic. It goes with the "human ego" sentiment/debate and is very interesting. I think we have also debated why folks collect lower grade cards too. Same thing...just different monies involved. For the record I do think the number on the slab, even if it's really a grade lower by most standards, has a huge impact on the value. That's kind of sad but no sin. Personally I don't collect high grade cards but if that's what folks want to do I will sit back and enjoy the game....It's all good...(and yes, it seems as though some people belittle those that do, at least to me)....best regards

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09-18-2006, 10:06 AM

Posted By: Cobby33I'm sure the people who drop these tremendous amounts of money on high-grade commons are smart. That's why they have so much disposable income, right? Thus, I'm sure they know that if the market softens, their "investments" will be th first to fall. Even if the overall market stays strong and there is the inevitable economic "adjustment," as with any industry, it's the high-$ product that is affected first. Personally, I don't collect to "invest" (doesn't seem like many on the Board do)- so although a downward trend would suck, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

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09-18-2006, 10:15 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskind While I appreciate Jim B's point, as well as the "ego" issue that Leon raises, the simple fact is this (1) In every collectible (at least every valuable collectible) condition matters Look at 18th century American furniture Coins Tiffany Lamps Rare watches Items in very high grades or near perfect condition command prices of 10, or in some cases 100 times, what lower grade items command. A number of baseball card dealers began their career in coins. They can certainly speak at great length about condition rarity and its concomitant impact on prices. Secondly, one of the great joys about living in this country is nobody can tell you how to spend your money...whether it be 10 dollars, 10,000 dollars or 100 million dollars. Some people have world class card collections and live in a $600 a month apartment other people who buy beaters drive a $80,000 car or spend their money on wine, women and song. It is not appropriate to condem someone because they have the means to buy what they wish. I don't hear anyone saying that John Travolta should not have his own 727 jet or that Bill Gates should not own a $50 million home. God bless the brilliant minds that were able to earn tens of millions of dollars and chose to spend a small fraction of their hard-earned wealth on rare baseball cards. You never hear those gentlemen belittling people who have more than they do. They are rarely sarcastic in their comments. And the fact that someone believes that he has built one of the most remarkable collections in the hobby on $1500 is no more a badge of honor than someone who has done so by spending 15 million. Remember this is about baseball...and the greatest team ever- The Yankees have always won by growing their own talent and by buying talent when they had the opportunity. Not only are the Yankees the most successful franchise in sports history but they are far and away the most profitable one in America. My guess is that those lucky enough to be able to spend a million dollars a year on cards will each do well when it comes time to sell, and they will enjoy the hobby until they are ready to sell. For those with more modest budgets, they too should enjoy the hobby. I am sure, however, that there are very few collectors, regardless of what they spend, who would not like to earn a substantial return on their investment when it comes time to sell. I will end this message with a quote from Bill Mastro who spoke with me at great length after I was outbid on a card I really wanted. He said, "Bruce, don't sweat it,,,remember all it is a piece of old cardboard."

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09-18-2006, 10:15 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCobby, None of them collect to invest--they collect because they love it. Also doubtful that people of this net worth would change their buying habits in a downturn. My sense is if the downturn came as the result of a recession then there would be a further widening of the gap between high and low end cards. The one scenario I think that could cause high end cards to drop would be something which causes them to lose complete faith in the whole grading process. Jim

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09-18-2006, 10:27 AM

Posted By: Cobby33Hi Jim- Your points are well-taken, but I have to say I do know at least one person who collects high-end cards to "invest" and not because he is mad about the hobby - which drives me crazy. (I got him into Vintage because I thought he would enjoy it like I do). I can't predict how his "investment" practices will change if there is a downturn (which I hope there isn't), but I can guarantee you I won't hear the end of his bitching and moaning about how I "got him into" cards. Yes, I got him into the hobby, but not into the investment aspect of it. I guess what most people are voicing is their dissatisfaction with (some of) the "have's" being "show-off's" and/or making certain cards out of reach for the rest of us. Sobeit, that's simple economics. I believe your assessment (subject to my caveat) that these people collect because they love it and that's great. But, with any group of people, there are always some who turn it into a "I have more/better toys than you do," which leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, especially with something that is primarily done for fun, for most.

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09-18-2006, 10:38 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellCobby, Points well taken--some of it is just human nature I guess. JIm

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09-18-2006, 10:54 AM

Posted By: DJJim, In all honesty, is that what we are trying to do? Build a complete T206 of "8"'s and own the world's greatest T206 set? If you pay a minimum of $4,000 for commons with some selling for around $6,000-7,000 and count the stars along the $14,000-20,000 range wouldn't you have invested roughly $3 Million on your conquest with extreme difficulties? Is it feasable in your lifetime? As far as Lattimore goes, maybe there is a guy out there who collects Lattimore and wants an "8". People do collect after all. My highest graded T206 (most are unslabbed) is a Jake Stahl at PSA7 because he's one of my faves and an attractive and colorful card. Of course I bought it three years ago for $190. I thought about it more after I posted and I asked myself "self, if I had all the money in the world, would that be my conquest as well?" and I said "nah". I would rather own other avenues (Yum Yum's, e107's in any condition) and go a different difficulty route. Collecting where only 10-12 examples in the world in less than appealing condition, not cards that exist in massive quantities, but limited in "pristine" condition. Too each is own I guess. DJ

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09-18-2006, 11:46 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellDJ, To each his own. I would love to have a complete set T206 in psa 8 and better. I would rather though have a multitude of other sets in 8 or better. I have no interest in 7s or less. Remember, however, that some(a few) have the financial abolity and passion to do both. Jim

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09-18-2006, 12:24 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJim Crandall alluded to something earlier that we all seem to already know, and that is there is an ever widening gap between the wealthy and the middle class, and the rich keep getting richer. I guess that explains the equally enormous gap between a VG-EX and a PSA-8. A NR MT card has always been more expensive than a lower grade card, but I think it is the degree of that gap that is opening people's eyes and perhaps ruffling a few feathers. Maybe there is a little class warfare going on here, which might explain why this topic touches a chord with so many people.

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09-18-2006, 07:10 PM

Posted By: jay behrensBill Gates doesn't belittle anyone that has more money than him? I guess that's a true statement in a way since no one has more money than he does. And yes, Bruce, I know that jab was meant for me. I don't belittle every rich person I know, only pompous, arrogant asses like you who look down on us, how did you put it, pedestrian collectors of Net54. I would have belittle every person on Net54 if I was someone that belittled every person richer than me. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-18-2006, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Cobby33John Travolta should not have a 727 jet and Bill Gates should not have a $50 million home. There, I said it. I don't care if people pay $10K for PSA 8 commons, so long as they're humble about it. But that was an inappropriate analogy, I think. Excess is the one thing that is behind most of this society's issues, IMHO. P.S. Not everyone who has ridiculous amounts of money has a brilliant mind. In fact, very few of them do. (Nothing personal towards Bruce or anyone, by the way).

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09-18-2006, 09:14 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI thought Bruce had excellent points and I agree with him. Jim

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09-18-2006, 09:16 PM

Posted By: jay behrensCobby, so true. The truely brilliant minds are people like Stephen Hawking. Travolta entertains us and our society overpays entertainers, including athletes. Bill Gates is basically a theif having taken advantage of some legal loopholes and basically ripped off the Windows OS from Apple. Gee, imagine that, Crandall agrees with Dorkskin Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-18-2006, 09:27 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWhat a ridiculous staement. Imagine that--Behrens playing the class warfare card for the umpteenth time. Sad.

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09-18-2006, 10:04 PM

Posted By: jay behrensPlease explain this class warfare thing? I don't have an issue with Leon, JC, or any of the other people on this board who far more money than me (which is pretty much everyone on this board). My issue with you and Dorkskin is that both of you are pompous, arroungant, jerks. Plain and simple. No one else on this board comes across that way. You constantly find it neccesary to tell us that if with aren't collecting the best of the best that we are throwing our money away and then try make things all better by saying "collect what you like." Which is it? Should we be buying the best of the best or collecting what we want to collect? You are both so far removed from reality it's not even funny. Or maybe it is <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm still waiting for Mr America's Toughest Wantlist to produce something more spectacular than a PSA8 Double Play or PSA5 Delong. Talk about pedestrian. He will continue to be a running joke around here until such time that he can actually live up to self promotion. Hell, I think I'll change my wantlist to match his. I can claim the same success rate at finding cards on that list that he has. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-18-2006, 10:13 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellFunny-- We know who the biggest joke is here and its you. Just continue to make a fool of yourself while others ridicule you.

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09-19-2006, 01:15 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskindWhile I will not lower myself to Mr. Behrens' level, in the interest of honest representation, I would like to make two simple points: I have never owned or posted a PSA Delong 5. I offered a PSA Delong 7 of Simmons for sale because I obtained several PSA 8 Delongs for my type collection. I offered a PSA 8 Double Play for sale because I obtained two other PSA 8 Double Plays-also for my type collection. I also believe that we should not allow people to post who can not speak English. I reference Mr. Behren's two most recent postings. His comments, whilst gutter-like and inflammatory at best, fail to acknowledge the basic rules of English grammar. Anyone who speaks English as a first language knows that the correct phrases are: ….. has more money than he ….. that belittled every person richer than I …. other people on the board who have far more money than I It is sad that Mr. Behrens has been treated so badly by this country, and that he lives in poverty and hates so deeply. Perhaps, this "card terrorist" should relocate to a third world country and surround himself with others who hate America as much as he.

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09-19-2006, 04:12 AM

Posted By: JoannHuh? When did this become about patriotism? Also, the use of the honorific "Mr." is a pretentious affectation and should be dropped - a more casual style might be better recieved. (Just practicing pompous language.) (hee - couldn't resist.) Joann

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09-19-2006, 04:37 AM

Posted By: David McDonaldSo do you only want to have him banned or do you want his sorry, syntax-mangling ass deported to Guantanamo? I'm not sure Leon is that powerful. Good pitching will always beat good hitting and vice versa.

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09-19-2006, 05:26 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesRest assured that understanding the intracacies of the difference between a gerund and a participle holds far greater importance to all of us, than any of the opinions of the Dorskind Group which you so charmingly inflict.

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09-19-2006, 06:13 AM

Posted By: leonOh, pretty please keep me out of it. I have no power and only want to collect baseball cards and have fun. I am going to have a very stressful day but maybe can frequent our board for a few quick getaways. If people want to collect high grade or low grade does it really matter? As long as you are having fun and it's your money...do what you want. Heck, you don't even have to have fun if you don't want to. Let's do take some of the personal stuff off of the board, if we can. I think everyone has gotten their shots in. As always, if you put your name next to it, and stay with within the rules you can pretty much say what you want to. Btw, I still think the difference between a nrmt card and a nrmt-mt one is negligable and not worth the extra $1000's, but many people do. Hooray for them....it's still all good...(I am sure my grammar is not correct so let me apologize for anyone having trouble reading my drivel)..best regards

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09-19-2006, 06:52 AM

Posted By: warshawlawJay may not "write" well but how he "speaks" isn't at issue in a written posting, Bruce. If you're gonna crap on someone's grammar at least get the subject matter right. We seem to have one of these rich vs. poor threads every few months (of course, what we really have is a rich vs. upper middle class argument since anyone who spends money on baseball cards isn't poor). Frankly, this isn't ever going to resolve nor will it ever stop. There is a perpetual clash in this country between the rich piggies at the top and the hungry piggies in the middle and bottom, and we all know who's been winning and at whose expense for the last several years. We won't solve it with cards. Is is sick that John Travolta has a 727? Would I personally like to see a radical redistribution of wealth in this country? Maybe, but this isn't the place for it to be discussed. One of the things that is most distressing is to see arguments here equating personal wealth with superior intelligence, morality, etc. For every smart guy who made money on his own I can show you dozens of widows and idiot sons living on their predecessors' investments and lots of smart but unexceptional people who were at the right place at the right time and happened to cash in on it. Money isn't about character, quality, ethics (not that anyone ever mentions ethics but I thought I'd throw it in there), morals or any other quality. You can have money or not have money and still be a jackass, as we've all seen. Getting back to cards, personally, I can't decide if I'd prefer that the bottom fall out of the card market so I can collect solely for fun again or if I want to see it keep spiraling out of control so I can retire on the cards I own. Having to insure my cards, keep them in a vault where I can't see them, and enrobe them in plastic can be such a drag, and it bums me out to no end to watch my wife flying lazy circles over my collection waiting for the value to rise to the point where she can force a sale to pay off the mortgage (don't laugh; I know two collectors who "had" to liquidate to pay off their houses or pay for additions because the cards are just too valuable; not surprisingly both are married). If prices on rare and old cards continue to rise many collectors will be forced out of the hobby and that is s shame.

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09-19-2006, 07:13 AM

Posted By: Bob PomillaOh, please. Do you realize how idiotic that sounds?

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09-19-2006, 07:49 AM

Posted By: BobbyJay, Just want to point out that Bill Gates basically did rip off Apple. But in reality they both got it from Xerox, they where the true inventors of the GUI system and many other leading software developments in there research center.

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09-19-2006, 07:52 AM

Posted By: jay behrensTo quote Bruce in an email he sent me, "...maybe if you were raised properly by servants like I was, than make you wouldn't be lacking in social graces." All you have to do is look at his last post to see the pompous ass I've speaking of. This how all his emails to have been. Very pompous. Very Condescending and as I mentioned before, he just doesn't get it, or chooses not to becuase he thinks that people respect him for acting that way. Maybe the white-breed Mayflower crowd does, but the everage American certainly doesn't. "Card terrorist"? Does this mean I run around car bombing cards sitting on the store shelf? Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 07:53 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisAt this posting there nearly 90 posts on this thread.......and the only rational post, in my opinion, is Corey Shanus' post (9/17 10:21). A PSA8 or PSA 9 T206 Minor League common such as the Lattimore example selling for mid to upper $K's is so mind-boggling to me that I just chuckle. I am the first to champion our capitalist system; and, if you are fortunate to have big $$'s and you want to "invest" it in neat little Tobacco cards, then more power to you. I think it's foolish, but I also believe in....."live and let live". My 1st T206 set (521 cards..with MAGIE) cost me less than any single Hi-Grade T206, non-HOFer, is currently going for on ebay....this is really crazy ! A total of 90K was cited for purchases in these Hi-Grade cards, if I had $$$$'s like that I certainly wouldn't have invested in little pieces of cardboard; but, in real estate or diversified in the Stock Market. And, indeed I have done that and it has paid off over the years; which as a consequence has yielded discretionary $$$$ for acquiring all the cards I needed to complete all my numerous vintage sets. At the risk of getting the "Jay B" treatment from respondents here.....I will caution.... it is very risky business business in "investing" $$$$ in any collectible that far exceeds its intrinsic value. And, the fact that it is in plastic with some # assigned to it, then raises the level of it's value is really scary....very scary. Sorry....this is so long-winded....T-Rex TED

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09-19-2006, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesBabe Ruth too was raised by someone other than his parents. But somehow that seems regretful to me. Certainly not something which one would boast about. Especially seeing that the product of this impersonal training meets with general distaste from our pedestrian crowd. Simply the most recent in a parade of those with similar views. All very forgetable. But as a reminder - the predecessor was Adam J. Moraine. Maybe this one is too.

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09-19-2006, 08:29 AM

Posted By: cmokingTed Z wrote: "A total of 90K was cited for purchases in these Hi-Grade cards, if I had $$$$'s like that I certainly wouldn't have invested in little pieces of cardboard; but, in real estate or diversified in the Stock Market." Ted, those people have already made those investments. This is play money they are dealing with. 90K to them is no the same as 90K to you and me. Many of them probably have tens of millions already in real estate, the stock market, the cattle ranch, the friend's business, etc. This is likely the leftover money they can screw around with. 90K may be the core to someone's net worth, and if so, you're thoughts would be dead on IMO. But 90K can also be silly money to others.

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09-19-2006, 08:34 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskind Whilst I agree with many of the points that Ted makes, how can one argue that $7000 for a 100 year old card with a population of 1 is too much when certain cards from the 1950's sell for 40% more money in mint condition Case in point - from Vintage Card Prices.com 1957 Topps Don Drysdale PSA 9 6/15/06Mile High$10,549.70 Which card would you rather have? Price is and always will be a function of supply and demand. The first time a card is offered on E Bay or by an auction house, particularly a high grade card, it tends to command what appears to be an unreasonably high price. However, if one tracks expenditure on E Bay of 50's and 60's cards in PSA 9 the prices for SGC 88 E-93's or PSA 8 T 206's appears to be reasonable. What do you think abou that Ted? Best, Bruce

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09-19-2006, 08:36 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellKing, As you know $90K is a drop in the bucket compared with what they are actually spending. There are several that are dropping over $1 million a year into high grade sports cards. Jim

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09-19-2006, 08:51 AM

Posted By: BrianPeople spending this kind of cash on cards don't need wealth building advice... Similar point to King's, stated differently.

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09-19-2006, 08:57 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellAlso, to state the obvious, if one would have invested in high grade prewar cards 10-15 years ago, you would have had a substantially better return than in a diversified stock fund or real estate. Speculative collectibles can certainly have a place in a diversified investment portfolio. Jim

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09-19-2006, 09:05 AM

Posted By: jay behrens15 years ago grading was essentially nonexistant. What did exist in the high grade market were a bunch of trimmed up and doctored cards to take advantage of the huge money being paid by Copeland and the bandwagon that followed him. Chances are, you would have a high percentage of cards that wouldn't grade. High grade cards always bring big moeny, it's just that it's a much safer investment today than it was 15 years ago if you buy slabbed cards. This doesn't mean that you won't get trimmed cards in a slab though. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 09:18 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellNo--you are wrong again here. What really got grading going is legendary collectors like Fogel, Merkel and others endorsing grading and leading dealers jumping on the bandwagon. If you were around then, vintage collectors had lost complete confidence in non-graded cards and PSA came in to fill a tremendous void. What has followed has been a boom in the vintage card market due mainly to the advent of card grading.

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09-19-2006, 09:25 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisMy response to your...... "However, if one tracks expenditure on E Bay of 50's and 60's cards in PSA 9 the prices for SGC 88 E-93's or PSA 8 T 206's appears to be reasonable. What do you think abou that Ted?" "Reasonable ?".......there is nothing in my opinion "reasonable" in any of these prices (sold); whether, for preWar and especially post-War cards. I retired at age 51, because as I said in my above post, I made some very prudent invest- ments with the discretionary money I earned while I was working as a profes- sional for almost 30 years. I had a family of 4 to support; however, I still was able to set $$ aside for my sportscard collecting hobby. Bruce, in order to tell you where I am coming from.... the most I have ever paid for a single BB card is $2000 for a 1951 Bowman MM (in Ex-Mt condition) to complete my 1951 set. I firmly believe on the "law of large #'s"....if I am going to spend multi-K $$$$, then I will acquire a large collection. Just call it "getting the most bang for your buck". Back in December, I acquired a collection of 500+ (all different) T206's at the Philly Show. And, just a month ago I came across an original T206 "find" of 440 cards. This is the way I have operated for 30 years now in this hobby. But, by no means do I say others should "wheel & deal" as I do. To each his own........regards, TED Z

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09-19-2006, 09:29 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsAfter reading these posts, and having a pretty good laugh over the use of the phrase "card terrorist," I've come to a conclusion. Bruce tends to post topics that relate cards as commodities, much like porkbellies, oil, or soy. Now there's nothing wrong with that, because hey, cards ARE in fact traded like these commodities. However, I think where the rift occurs is that this is a board about the hobby, and a place to gain more knowledge about specific issues of baseball cards. When a topic appears that really just deals with a price (remember that 11 yr old kid?), it rubs people the wrong way. Of course, the high prices paid for a common t206 card amazes most people, that doesn't seem to be the thrust of this board. Personally, I've learned a ton from my 2 years on here, and made some pretty cool friends. I look forward to many more years on here. This is not to say that Bruce or anybody should be bashed for posting about low pop/high prices paid for a card. Hey, if someone has the money to spend on a Lattimore in an 8, fantastic, I applaud your success! I'm just trying to figure out why every time Dorskind posts here, there are like 90 replies which eventually turn into a class warfare debate. End of my ramble, flame away! Josh Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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09-19-2006, 09:39 AM

Posted By: jay behrensJim, you said essentially the same thing I did but in a different way. I got out of the hobby in 1991 becuase of my absolute disgust with the hobby and the direction it was going. The last show I set up at was the Labor Day show in SF in 1991. I remember their being a both with a company offereing to professionally grade cards. After that show, I diassapeared from hobby until 5 years ago, so I missed out on the birth and growth of slabbing industry. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 09:47 AM

Posted By: jay behrensCrandall is the only person that has ever claimed there was a class war going on here. My issue is with him and Dorkskin and their attitude, not the money they have. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 10:08 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellI am not talking about a class war just what is going on in the market. Others have commented on the validity of my comments. Its okay to talk about ecomomic issues as they relate to card collecting. Remember you are the one blowing your own horn about your fabulous economic returns. Graded cards have irreversably changed the nature of the hobby. You can stick your head in the sand which you are doing or you can recognize reality and explain why this is going on which I nhave attempted to do.

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09-19-2006, 10:28 AM

Posted By: jay behrensBecause I don't buy PSA8 cards means that I am burying my head in the sand? I fully understand the implication and impact of graded cards. Why do you think I did all the leg work I did to get my e90-3 Hofnlan graded? It's becuase I knew that it would maximize the sale price of the card. I offered the card raw on ebay for a $200 BIN and no one bought it. Put it in a slab and magically it becomes a $2750 plus juice. Any card I have of significant value that I plan on selling will be slabbed. They generally get slabbed anyway, just to protect them from me. I don't neccessarily get great returns on my cards. What I do is buy cards shrewdly and don't overspend on cards. Anyone with a lot of moeny can throw a ton cash at anything they want. Trying to collect what we do with a limited budget, which is most board members problems as evidenced by the number of people seeking advice on how to collect on a budget, much more of a challenge than have the kind of moeny that you and a few others have, that can just throw what most of considered unlimited funds at to buy the cards you want. Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 10:29 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI hear a lot of bootstrapping rhetoric offline from some folks to justify whatever excesses they want to justify in their collecting. It is nice rhetoric but it doesn't play in the real world. I am a product of privilege; I owe a large part of what I achieved to being raised by wealthy parents who were able to send me to the best prep schools, universities and graduate programs. I went to school with scions of large fortunes, including some of the Forbes 400's kids. None of them earned it. None of them "deserved" it. They were simply born lucky. I socialize with many people who are nothing special but who emerged from the dot com boom with options that ended up worth fortunes. They did not deserve it nor did they earn it, they simply worked at the right company at the right time and happened to get some pieces of those companies when the friends and family were granted stock. Other wealthy people I know started out with no educational debts and inherited family businesses or six figures worth of family assets. My point is simple: I do not appreciate analyses that equate worldy success with virtue. Some rich folks are virtuous just as some companies are run ethically. Many others are not. It is a case by case analysis. As I said before: spend what you want on what you like, just stay the hell out of boxing cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-19-2006, 10:40 AM

Posted By: DJWow. I don't think there is that much a class struggle between the rich and the poor, unless someone makes something of it. We belong for the most part to this free forum where people come in here and talk about collecting and the pure joy of it. When we make a purchase, we throw it up on a collecting thread and people are congratulated for their purchases. You hear statements like: "That's a strong '4'!" or, "Wow, nice looking front, there must only be back damage!". When someone proudly finished up a T206 set in low grade after ten years, we all congratulate them. This is the kind of community that this is. The thing about this board is that we all LOVE our cards! Would Jim or Bruce ever congratulate your feable PSA4? Of course not. Remember when Adam J. Moraine started that thread which lasted way into the next year about cards that weren't Mint were worthless and will never be worth anything? What's the difference? Bruce, you are a successful person in the world. Why must you resort to words like "card terrorist" and telling people they hate America...why? Because he can't afford (nor would he want to) to pay $7,000 for a common? I was in Las Vegas six years ago and there was a crowd around this one area of the poker room. It was Bill Gates. What stakes was he playing? He was playing the same stakes that I was playing at the time. $3/6. He didn't belittle anyone at the table for playing those stakes. He was having a great time and joked and laughed with the rest of the nine players. I later got an autograph of him and he couldn't have been nicer. DJ

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09-19-2006, 10:54 AM

Posted By: warshawlawHigh stakes gambling in LV. The game is the same whether it is a buck a bet or ten thousand a bet. I have a friend who's a high roller (they send the jet for him; he bets in the millions). He can't explain it, either.

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09-19-2006, 10:55 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDJ, I think you owe Jim an apology. To suggest that he views cards as a status symbol solely is really an ignorant position to take and, more importantly, not true. I don't know Bruce at all but I find it impossible to believe he doesn't love the history of cards and baseball. In addition, should anyone want a real status symbol in life they buy a fancy car, home or woman - not baseball cards. Anyway you guys want to slice it, those who wish they had more money resent those that have that money and figure out ways to subtley insult them, all the while trying to make it seem as if they are impervious to such earthly concerns such as chasing the dollar.... Blast rich people all you want, claim that they are merely lucky in business or given money via the Lucky Sperm Club, the bottom line is that if you take samples of 1 million rich people compared to 1 million poor people, you'll find that the richer on average work harder, are more industrious and have higher intelligences - and probably have better baseball card collections too. That doesn't mean there aren't a zillion people who don't fit either generalization -- but the generalization is true nonetheless.

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09-19-2006, 11:11 AM

Posted By: Cobby33I think this comes down to begrudging the kid who brought the Nolan Ryan rookie card to school, not because he collected cards, but because he knew it was "worth" more than the '80 Jack Clark that the rest of us coveted. Looking back, we all know that kid didn't collect of like baseball cards, but liked trying to be the "best," when he had nothing else to offer (blame his parents), but having the best of the best (501's, Izod's, etc.)... I am in no way suggesting that Bruce or Jim or whomever, were or are those kids. I don't know them. But- I think that people here (myself included, I'll have to admit)- have a problem with the "in your face" attitude (that may very well be no more than a perception). And- have a problem with the suggestion that these rich kids are driving the hobby (they're not - as we have previously discussed). If you can afford a $9K common and truly enjoy the hobby, more power to ya (and thanks for boxing me out of those auctions- haha). BUT- if you're paying $9K for a common just to prove a point, save it for the playground.

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09-19-2006, 11:12 AM

Posted By: BrianChicks dig the set registry.

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09-19-2006, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Cobby33There's always that...

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09-19-2006, 11:21 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think everybody needs to find their comfort zone. Some people are extremely competitive, for whatever reasons, and need to have the best of everything. Others are happy to live life in a slower lane and just enjoy themselves as best they can. These different lifestyles also reflect how people collect. The hobby is full of VG's and PSA-8's so let's just agree there's something for everyone. I know this sounds trite but there is no resolution to this issue. Let the zillionaires collect what they want and others collect what makes them happy. I do however, object to the notion that money makes you both classier and more intelligent. I think it only makes you wealthier; life's other attributes have to be earned, too.

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09-19-2006, 11:42 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskind I believe you got an autograph from him (Bill Gates) not an autograph of him. I would appreciate it that if you choose to attack me, please stick to the facts. Here they are 1. I collect cards because I love them. I have been active in the hobby since 1976 and published numerous articles. I consulted to Wharton Tigar when he was working on his 5 part catalog and visited him at his home in London. His collection now resides in the British museum 2. I am currently consulting to two museums and a national magazine which is about to write a major feature story on card collecting. 3. I have the largest collection of collector correspondence dating back to 1929. 4. Since entering the hobby, I have only focused on rare cards in top condition. The Four Base Hits I purchased from Rob Lifson in 1977 for the then outrageous sum of $600 is now the second highest (from either service) graded Four Hit. The Just So Tobacco I purchased for $500 is the highest graded Just So. Finally, the uncut 1912 Boston Garter Sheet purchased for $20,000 from Mastro is now appraised at 10 times that figure The point is I acquired the best I could afford because they were the most attractive cards, and it was my belief that they would hold their value. Remember what Coach Lombardi said "Luck is what happens when preparation meets ability." Though it is doubtful you would know anything about ability Bruce

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09-19-2006, 11:48 AM

Posted By: JoannWhilst I was reading the post above, I just about wanted to throw myself off the balcony. Wow. Fortunately it ended, so I'm still here. Wealth? Yawn. Reason for collecting? Each person's personal business. Correcting grammar? Belittling occupations? Lock the door to the balcony. There's only so much of that I can stand. Joann

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09-19-2006, 11:59 AM

Posted By: leonI am right with you...and am not taking sides. I do always enjoy it when folks try to correct grammar and then sort of stick their foot in a big pile of pooh <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> .....I especially liked the one from right above: "I believe you got an autograph from him (Bill Gates) not an autograph of him. I would appreciate it that if you choose to attack me, please stick to the facts." I rarely correct grammar as I am liable to stick my foot in the pile too...so I just go on with my B+ grammar.......regards

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09-19-2006, 12:04 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDJ, Why are you making these ignorant comments? I love cards and know a tremendous amount about the history of the game. Do I know as much about pre-war cards as Jay? No, but I think I know as much as many on this board. Just because I collect PSA 8 cards and better is no reason to presume that I do not love the hobby. As I have said before, my experience in graded cards has been that the people who are the most passionate about the hobby are those with high grade collections. Your comments are way out of line. Jim

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09-19-2006, 12:17 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittYour B+ grammer continues to keep you firmly ensconced as the Grand Poobah of the Net54 board. Others can only hope to aspire to such a lofty throne...... Not sure St. Peter (or whomever holds the key to the gates for everyone's individual religions....) will be checking to see if your T206 Lindaman is PSA8 or VG ungraded before opening the pearly gates. There's much more to be debated in life than whose is better (or bigger I guess....). Don't want to sound like a bleeding heart because I'm far from it but who puts this much time into their personal lives or their kids lives, their churches, their communities, etc. Hope we not only keep PSA1-10 in perspective but everything else too. I'm glad I can afford Bounty and not the cost cutter version.....anyone wanna debate that........JIF vs. Skippy? Pepperidge Farm vs. Sunbeam?

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09-19-2006, 12:33 PM

Posted By: sagardNot to interupt the contest... But did anyone else think money was left on the table by not arranging a private sale of some of the cards. I realize that pricing these may be difficult, but it sure seems like some of these bidders would pay virtually any asking price.

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09-19-2006, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockQuoting Bruce: Whilst I agree with many of the points that Ted makes, how can one argue that $7000 for a 100 year old card with a population of 1 is too much when certain cards from the 1950's sell for 40% more money in mint condition Case in point - from Vintage Card Prices.com 1957 Topps Don Drysdale PSA 9 6/15/06 Mile High $10,549.70 Which card would you rather have? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of us would probably say "Neither." However you could buy a very presentable example of either card in a PSA 5 for a very reasonable cost. Most of cannnot or will not spend $10k on a single card. If the question were "Given $10k of free money, what would you buy," the answers would range from caramel cards to Diamond Stars to Zeenuts to Old Judges to Kal Bats to Allen & Ginters, to Boxing(!) cards (Hi, Adam),etc. That's what makes this a great forum and a great hobby. I've got a couple of PSA 8s of Eddie Mathews, my favorite player. PSA 8s are great looking cards.But generally I'm interested in cards that rarely get graded or, if they do get graded, grade very low. <img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/More%20Favorites/Darby.JPG"> This card is one of my favorites and may well be one of a kind. The Drysdale card was worth $10k to whoever bought it and the T206 Lattimore was worth $7700 to whoever bought it. Mostly likely neither buyer would be interested in the Darby card. So everybody should be happy. I had no plans to grade this card but now that I know that chicks dig the set registry . . .

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09-19-2006, 12:37 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDJ, even I wouldn't say Crandall doesn't love his cards. That's been obvious form many of his posts. Jeff, I've been on both sides of the wealth spectrum. I now currently reside on the lower side. You know what? I am a much happier person now than when I had a lot of money. It's personal decision for me to work a common low wage job than pursue a career in nuclear engineering. I have better things to do with my life than work 50-60 hours per week. So don't assume I am speaking from a position of ignorance. As they say, "Been there. Done that." Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 12:43 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHere's something to ponder: If I had 20 slabbed T206's, and ten of them graded PSA-8 and the other ten graded PSA-7, and I covered up the labels and mixed them up, how many collectors of high grade cards would be able to get them all right? My guess is none, and it's possible many wouldn't even come close. Assuming anyone agrees with this statement, then how does one justify the huge premium for high grade cards?

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09-19-2006, 12:58 PM

Posted By: jay behrensBarry, easy answer....EGO!!! Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 01:31 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJay, I don't disagree with your point at all or your life decision. I actually commend it and am a bit jealous to be honest. My comment re ignorance was simply based on DJ's insult of Bruce and Jim by claiming that they don't give a crap about baseball cards or history. It's just not true and his assertion was ignorant, i.e., made without the necessary knowledge or facts to render a correct opinion.

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09-19-2006, 01:44 PM

Posted By: sagardOn the 10 PSA 8, 10 PSA 7 question. I think a lot of people would get 80% correct. This is also the likely the same rate if PSA were to grade them again. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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09-19-2006, 01:50 PM

Posted By: Peter Spaeth"Do Jim and Bruce love cards? No! Do they love the rich history of baseball? No! All they see is a status symbol, investment potential, registry numbers and cha-ching." Unless you know Jim or Bruce personally, how do you have ANY basis for making this statement? And since you don't have any basis for making it, why say it in the first place?

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09-19-2006, 01:55 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIf Sagard is right, and my guess was about 15, then an awful lot of $1000 cards could become $5000 cards, or vice versa, based on some very subjective criteria.

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09-19-2006, 02:00 PM

Posted By: DJ My intent was to basically ignore this thread after I got Jim's answers. It was "too each is own" and his answers spoke volumes on what he believed. That's all fine. It started out as a healty debate and I apologize Jim. I should have taken a walk before writing what I wrote. Jeff, the only apology I need to issue is if in fact I was incorrect in whether Jim and/or Bruce actually enjoy trading cards. If I was wrong on this, I'm big enough to apologize. I know neither men, all I know is their words. As noted above, I should have taken a walk. Jeff, I'm not blasting rich people and if you think I am, you are dead wrong. I AM blasting rich people who belittle those who don't have the means to put together a great collection because they don't have the available funds for one reason or another. Bruce's behavior toward Jay was truly off base and I guess I was coming to his defense. Do I know Jay? No. Do I always agree with Jay? Um, no. Then Bruce writes, "Doubtful I know anything about ability?" You don't even know me. What the hell are you talking about? I have means, continue to make a great living and have made a pretty great life for myself. I wouldn't change a thing in my life if I had to do it over again. DJ

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09-19-2006, 02:02 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliAgreed with Peter. Furthermore, I would hope that "cha ching" wouldn't much enter into it. My impression would be that someone with the wherewithal to have earned enough money in his lifetime to build a T206 set in 8 wouldn't be using baseball cards as his primary investment strategy. As far as the overall issue is concerned, I can't believe the venom that some people generate over it. Who cares? People collect all sorts of things in all sorts of ways - far be it from me to criticize it, I'd rather learn from it. Much more fun, and much more peaceful. -Al

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09-19-2006, 02:13 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellDJ, Apology accepted--lets move on. If you knew me, you would know I am a passionate collector who loves all sports but particularly baseball. I also have never met anyone who loves his cards more than me. I collect so many sets because I love them all--except 1970 Kellogg(inside joke--just kidding). We collect differently--I have strong beliefs--I believe graded cards are the future of the hobby and that vintage high-grade cards are a great investment. But I also believe that others can collect differently and that their way of collecting is equally valid. Enjoy the hobby. Jim

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09-19-2006, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI think some of you guys are cheating on your work and I know it is not Jay, because he doesn't work much. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Lee

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09-19-2006, 02:26 PM

Posted By: cmoking"But did anyone else think money was left on the table by not arranging a private sale of some of the cards. I realize that pricing these may be difficult, but it sure seems like some of these bidders would pay virtually any asking price." Ah, but if that happened, this thread would never have existed! Seriously, I don't know what would have been a better way to sell these cards. Maybe a catalog auction like Mastro or REA would have brought even more money. Maybe a private sale would have brought more. But here are the negatives with both of those: - catalog auction negative: each increment is usually 10%. When it gets that high, it is possible someone wants to pay higher than the next current bid, but not 10% higher. Thus the seller possibly loses say 5% more because of the auction format. - private sale negative: some people don't like to negotiate a specific price because they aren't sure if they are paying too much. If they win an auction, they know they won it at slightly higher than the other guy's highest bid. But if they paid a private sale price, then they could have paid much higher. I think some people are more comfortable buying in an auction than a private sale for this reason.

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09-19-2006, 03:08 PM

Posted By: JayI am relatively new to this board and just wanted to offer my two cents. My name is Jay and I am 15 years old and exclusively collect T206s. Every card I buy is with my personal money that I have allotted to spend on cards. I strive for the best condition possible but at this point of my life cannot come close to spending $7,700 for a Lattimore no matter how nice condition. So, I try to find a great gradeable common card in EX condition for about 20 to 30 dollars. By shopping around and spending wisely, great cards can be bought at great prices. This is also part of the fun of collecting: making deals to get great cards. I would not enjoy it nearly as much if I was so rich that I could shell out 5 million and just buy a complete PSA 8 set. I also want to note that the main difference between a PSA 4 or 5 and an 8 is that the corners are perfect rather than a bit of wear. Does this lack of a bit of wear justify spending $7,500 more? Maybe, it just depends on the person, the goal, and the budget. I look for the best condition that I can afford, and most importantly I enjoy what I am doing. This should be a hobby and not an investment. I think that some members on this board should realize that we all collect because we love the game and love the cards (at least I hope we do). Whenever I look at a PSA 4 T206 I can think to myself, "Wow this survived in reasonably good condition for 95 years." Someone else might say "I would never spend a penny on a card that is in such bad condition." Everything in collecting depends on the person. Regards, Jay (T206kid)

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09-19-2006, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusYou're wise beyond your years.

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09-19-2006, 03:20 PM

Posted By: jackgoodmanJay, welcome to the board and thank you for renewing my faith in the educational system of this country. Your comments were well thought out, intelligent and well written. I wish I had your clarity of purpose (relative to collecting) when I was your age. Now if we could just send another former board youngster to the same school you attended..........

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09-19-2006, 03:21 PM

Posted By: warshawlawWhile I'd just as soon see the ultra rich have their assets drained like a keg at a frat house, this isn't the place for a policy debate. Let's take a cue from the kid and get back to cards. Edited to add name

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09-19-2006, 03:28 PM

Posted By: sagard<<<If Sagard is right, and my guess was about 15, then an awful lot of $1000 cards could become $5000 cards, or vice versa, based on some very subjective criteria.>>> You and I have about the same ideas. In a group of ten 8s, a couple may be questionable. Just like a nice group of ten sevens a couple are probably 8s on a day where the grader is happy. The $5000 cards don't become $1000 cards though for obvious reasons. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Soren

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09-19-2006, 03:54 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisGEE....Your post is a refreshing breeze, on what has become a very long-winded, with not too much meaningful commentary on this Thread. What ever happened to the exciting days of bragging about acquiring a "valuable" BB card (it's irrelevant what circa it's from) for a bargain price ? Instead, they are now bragging about paying 7700 for a T206 Minor League card of Lattimore (which, incidently I have 5 of them from Vg to near Mint). I would be embarrassed to boast about such a purchase......But, I guess we are living in an "upside-down-world", nowadays. TED Z

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09-19-2006, 04:07 PM

Posted By: JimBI did not notice anybody boasting about paying high prices for a Latimore or any other card. Occassionally there are threads about the great deals people have gotten, but I have never seen anybody brag about paying a lot for a card. JimB

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09-19-2006, 04:25 PM

Posted By: jay behrensBruce, since you seem to be so hung up on grammar, care to explain in detail to use simple, pedestrian collectors why you keep refering to yourself as "we" instead of "I"? Or is "we" misspeclled and actuially a French word that was taught to you by French servants that raised you? Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 04:28 PM

Posted By: cmokingWhich is better? Bragging about paying $7700 for a PSA 8 T206 common? (BTW, who did brag about that? I don't think any of those winners posted in this thread and I doubt they read this forum regularly) or Bragging about ripping off some old lady's face off by giving her $10 for $500 worth of cards? They both suck.

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09-19-2006, 05:23 PM

Posted By: warshawlawripping an old lady's face off (not being sarcastic; it really does sum up what some folks make it sound like they do). Or did you mean ripping off an old lady to her face? I like the first one better, it has a certain sense of urgency to it. To answer your question, I don't think it is ever an honest bargain that is the bad part, it is the way the bargainer handles the successful deal. There is a thing called "class" that you can't buy, you can't inherit and you can't fake. Making a good deal is the American way; being a pig about it is not. The discussion we've had here reminds me of a situation I had recently. I had a friend who got into some money troubles of his own devise and became obsessed with card values as a result. He was so desperate to make money as a card dealer that he could not stand it when anyone made a dime off cards he sold. He got so paranoid that I had to stop being friends with him. He started trying to unravel months-old deals we made because he thought in retrospect that I got the better end of things. It wasn't pretty and definitely reminded me of how friggin serious this stuff can get to some people if it is allowed to escalate. My point is that I used to rush to the breach to fight over these threads in a very moralistic tone but I am less inclined to do so with this one because I understand how it feels to be on both ends of the debate. I have felt at times like the kid with no money looking into the candy store window and watching the rich kids open boxes of cards and at other times (as was the case with my erstwhile friend) like the rich kid staring out the window at the poor kid wondering why he's so pissed off at me. Unless you are Bill Gates or Sam Walton, we are all on both sides of the equation from time to time. I think we all need a little perspective here. It's just cardboard with pictures of male athletes (which is in no way gay...not that there's anything wrong with that, its perfectly acceptable if it is gay...but it isn't gay. Really).

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09-19-2006, 08:50 PM

Posted By: Kevin Cummings<img src="http://members.aol.com/kkkkandp/grammarbig.jpg"> <a href="http://grammarsnobs.com/thebook.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://grammarsnobs.com/thebook.html</a>

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09-19-2006, 09:51 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesIt certainly is not gay, although the shiney stuff may be. The athletes we collect are all dead. Collecting pictures of dead men isn't gay, its ... oh wait, I know its not that necro thing at all - its history!

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09-19-2006, 10:04 PM

Posted By: Max WederI don't want to merge this thread with the "football sucks" thread, but oh, sometimes.... <img src="http://ettinger.ca/fairplay.jpg">

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09-19-2006, 10:15 PM

Posted By: jay behrensNow that guy looks gay <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Then again, that whole Ive League, sweater wrapped around the neck thing is pretty gay <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-19-2006, 10:15 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Ace or Gary?

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09-20-2006, 12:07 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCwell, i am new to the board...i think i used to look on this board years ago...anyway, i'm basically new to it, glad to have found it. well, i am the winner of the Dick Egan 9 (bill from yorktown told me the next day, "looks like you got the best deal")...i have been collecting T206 cards since 1991 (bought my very first cards from Cavalcade of Sports (thanks for everything Jay!)...long story short, i used to a ton of low-mid grade cards, and then last year decided to "streamline" the collection, basically sold all of the lower-mid grade cards and "re-invested" in high grade-low pop cards...you can see my set on PSA set reg, Sarno-Schuster # 46, but don't let the number fool you...anyway, i guess i am hearing a wide variety of opinions here, but just to give my 2 cents, i am a "true" collector, have never sold a thing prior to march, i know the history of the game, the players and the cards...it was hard for me (as a true collector) to get my head around the idea of collecting to invest, BUT it cannot be denied that collecting high grade/low pop, pre-war cards is an amazing investment. i do collect with a friend, who is in the financial world and he is super analytical, he has approached collecting with that mindset, and has made unbelievable profits, but the beautiful thing is, he is a "true" collector, he knows the stories behind the players and the understanding and appreciation of cardboard printing processes and cigarette distribution in 1909-11, etc, etc. so my big point here is this: you can approach collecting from an investment standpoint AND STILL have an unbelievable passion for collecting...and to respond to someone else's point above, questioning why should a common low pop sell for more than davis (HOF)...to answer that we have to look at the root of our wonderful hobby, it is to hunt, find, buy, cherish hard to find, sought after cards, in real estate it is all about location, location, location...well, our in hobby it is all about condition, condition, condition...also, i am NOT trying to fill a set in 8's/9's...thats a task reserved for a select few...i merely enjoy the mystic and importance of looking at and appreciating an 8 or a 9, and admiring how it has survived 2 worldwars, numerous paper drives, handling prior to slabbing, etc, etc...i have owned many 100's of T206 cards, and i simply decided to switch gears and focus on quality...thats all, nothing more...

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09-20-2006, 12:48 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCa REALLY important fact i failed to mention is this...it is a huge goal of mine to have a complete T206 set someday, BUT not in 8's & 9's (unless i hit the lottery)...this will be achieved by eventually selling the limited number of high grade cards (which will perform better for me), and "parlaying" those profits into 500+ mid-grade cards, something i was not able to do a few years ago, before i restructed the collection & only had low-mid cards...the higher grade cards will ultimately allow me the oppertunity to achieve the life-long goal of owning the monster...

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09-20-2006, 01:38 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensFif the buyers ever think that with so few people interested and able to afford these PSA 8 that there is a very good chance that you would not get as much when you tried to sell your card. A few things can happen, for one you have now eliminated a bidder by having the card yourself and you were willing to pay more than anyone else and the good chance that more of this card will become graded the same or higher. You have to hope that more people become interested in spending there money on high grade high dollar cards. Also, IMHO there will be a day when buyers and collectors become wise to the amount of PSA high grade cards that have been altered and thus will shy away from PSA high grade cards no matter how nice they look. By the way I also think that there is the same rate of return if not higher on lower grade cards, just not the fancy price tags attached to them. I would never have been able to accumulate my collcection without buying and selling for a profit and I have rarely paid over $500 for a card. Lee

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09-20-2006, 05:33 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellExtremely well said! You hit on my main point--that in my experience the guys who are the most passionate and informed about graded cards are the ones collecting the high-end material. I would point out that the number of collectors willing to pay several thousand for a low-pop psa 8 common(even post-war) is expanding significantly and it is my view that the prices between low grade and high grade vintage cards will widen further--perhaps substantially. My main concern is card alteration--if card alteration spreads further then collectors bcould lose their confidence they are buying unaltered material. Now I am really looking forward to meeting you guys tomorrow. Jim

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09-20-2006, 06:57 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCi totally agree that the number of people willing to spend the money on 8's is growing rapidly...i mean look at me for instance, jan. 1 i only had one 8, that i bought 2 years ago for $450, now i have run wild with them...and it is an important point to make here that it seems that most people on the board think only rich people can get into the high grade market, but this is not true, people with limited funds can do this too, IF they make the right moves, it is all about knowing what you already have and trying to find ways to parlay that into as much value as possible in order to make smart trades, hunt and find great deals, etc... we are also looking forward to meeting you tomorrow night as well.

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09-20-2006, 07:05 AM

Posted By: martindl MVS, Your Egan 9 is up for sale on Ebay and its only $2900 - doesn't sound like you're selling it, so did someone steal the scan?

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09-20-2006, 08:02 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI taught my brother well. On a percentage basis, low grade cards are going to give you a better rate of return than high grade cards will. A $7700 card will have sell for $8470 in order to see a 10% return. A $100 low grade common only needs to go to $110 to get that same 10% return. Take a guess at which one will go up 10% first. You also run the risk in the thin high grade-low pop market of taking a huge loss. I remember a few years somene pointing out a PSA9 or 10 t206 from MAstro that sold for a huge amout less than its previous sale price. You will enver see that with low grade cards becuase there are too many people in that market to let a card go for significantly less than current market. Dorkskin, WE (as in everyone on this board) are still waiting to hear why you refer to yourself as "we" instead of "I". This is really bad grammar, unless you are refering to the voices in your head. Or do you have another explaination, Mr Grammar? Jay I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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09-20-2006, 08:18 AM

Posted By: MVSNYCsomeone stole scan...card is safe with me.

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09-20-2006, 08:22 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellNo--high grade cards will give a better return. The number of vintage collectors who are seeking top condition vintage cards is growing substantially and the supply is low and not growing much. If you look at T206s, the majority of the T206 PSA 8 commons I have bought have been under $200 and were bought 7-9 years ago. Lets say the average price of those today is $4,000(?). Have psa 5 commons grown 20-fold over this period of time--of course not. Off-condition cards are much more prevalent and generally speaking those collectors that buy vg-ex or ex cards are not willing to pay huge premiums to get them--those that collecrt psa 8 and better are. Might $7,700 be the peak for a T-206 common for awhile in psa 8--sure. But the market will turn its attention again to goudeys, play balls, cracker jacks, sporting life etc. and we will see big prices paid for the low pops in those issues. If returns are important to you and you have the financial ability to do so--stick with the high grade cards. Jim

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09-20-2006, 08:28 AM

Posted By: cmokingMVSNYC - welcome to the board. Here's an unsolicited piece of advice for you: Try to get an understanding of what people here think. Many of us (me included probably) will spew the same opinion in post after post, thread after thread. Sometimes it becomes so obvious what someone will post even before they post! I think many of us could save some time by simply copying/pasting previous statements rather than write the same thing in a milliion different ways.

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09-20-2006, 08:45 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliI try really hard not to write about cards like an investor, but in the spirit of this thread... If we're going to talk about this as an investment, then a big part of any investment involves WHEN you get in. Jim got into T206s in 8 at $200 a pop years ago, which is sort of like getting into Microsoft in the late 80s. The rate of return is huge. A home run for anyone who got in at that time. There's still a lot of upside to getting into Microsoft today, but the exponential growth will take longer, and likely be less. Still a lot of upside to high-grade prewar cards, of course. There will always be new collectors who prefer this stuff, who have the cash, and who are willing to pay a premium for condition. But Jay's point is a good one as well. I think for every big-money buyer of high-grade prewar, there is some multiple of that buying low-to-mid grade prewar. While the dollars are smaller, the upside potential in terms of percentage growth is probably a bit higher in the shorter term. A $100 investment in a lower-grade E-card HOFer two years ago is probably double or triple that today. As more people gravitate to prewar (because it is an infinitely cool niche in the hobby), this market will continue to thrive. Ultimately in my mind there's a point somewhere in the prewar arena where "scarcity" and "condition" meet and create a perfect investment. For my money, if I had any, I'd always opt for scarcity over condition, because I do think that "condition" as a concept is a little dicey, for three reasons: 1) People improve the condition of cards, which increases the pops of higher-grade cards (the lower-grade ones, too, but the impact of one additional 8 is much greater than the impact of one additional 4) 2) People resubmit cards over and over until they wind up in the highest possible holder, which also increases pops. 3) There are still ungraded cards out there, even higher-grade ones, and while the finds are getting fewer and further between, they're still out there. Cards that are scarce will remain so (with some exceptions, like George C Millers, which were mentioned elsewhere in this thread), and are thus, in my opinion, a better "investment" than higher-grade cards. The best "investment", though, in my opinion, is in those cards where "scarcity" and "condition" meet - the highest-grade example of a scarce card. Either way, in my opinion, two basic concepts in this thread are obvious: 1) Prewar cards are a good "investment", whether they be high-grade, off-grade, common, scarce, popular, unpopular, whatever. 2) There are lots of different people who collect in lots of different ways, and they're all equally relevant and important to the hobby. It's just as much of a thrill for me to read about Jim's latest PSA 8 conquest as it is for me to read about Jay's latest beater, Hal's latest HOF rookie card, Leon's latest 19th century scarcity, and someone's love for 2006 Topps Allen & Ginter. It's all cards, it's all good, and it's a pleasure to have a board like this where I can learn about all these different styles of collecting that shape the way I choose to collect. Exhale. -Al

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09-20-2006, 08:53 AM

Posted By: Rich Klein1) As an investment you should always buy the best condition you can afford. If you can afford PSA 8 or better T206's, then by all means purchase those cards. If you can only afford beaters, then buy those cards. There is enough room in this hobby for both collectors of means and collectors who can afford $10 a year on this hobby. 2) While we are at it, there is nothing to be gained in belittling anyone for their collecting habits. When I was growing up we had an expression "Horses for courses". Not all of us can run in the Kentucky Derby; some of us run in claiming stakes in the mud in December. 3) One of the great parts of this hobby is that there is room for everyone. On a message board we are all even to some degree -- those people who run multi-million dollar companies and those individuals who are bicycle messengers in NY. We all post -- we all have the same passions -- although in different ways and we should all appreciate each other. Rich

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09-20-2006, 09:02 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellAl, Great post--excellent points!!!! What message board did you say you headed up again(ha ha). Jim

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09-20-2006, 09:21 AM

Posted By: Keith O'LearyThanks for distilling the opinions and giving us yours. Yes it was a good post Al.

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09-20-2006, 10:26 AM

Posted By: warshawlawRich, somehow I figured you for a mudder <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I know lots of people here made lots of money buying and holding commons from popular sets at the start of the grading thing. Congratulations. However, if you really want to talk investment, you have to admit that timing and luck in choosing which cards to get into were your real keys to success. Anyone who bought truly high grade cards at the beginning of the slabbing thing is rich today if he happened to buy the right cards that happened to be truly high grade and happen to be demanded today by the set registry collectors. If you put your ducats into 1950s or 1960s PSA 8 cards instead, you didn't make 20x your money. As I recall, the grading emphasis shifted on those cards from 7 to 8 to 9 and 10 as the lower grade cards came to the market with greater frequency. I saw lots and lots of those 8's rotting at the National; anyone wanna argue that they were making nice money for their owners? The other issue is rate of return versus risk, which is where Jay's point comes into play. If I was investing in cards like stocks I would look for deals that I could get into and out of within 6 months with a return of at least 200% because I would prefer not to tie up my money for the long term in things as illiquid as cards and I would also prefer to spread my risks across a lot of solid material instead of one super premium item dependent on finding a niche market to sell. If you cannot be into something for years on end, you can only be into it with play money. Ditto if you have to gamble on 1 or 2 items going through the roof. If you happen to be rich and have lots of play money, you can pay a then-unheard-of price for a card and hold it for years, sell it or whatever because it isn't a painful impact on your finances if it flames out. If not, you have to spread your risks by not tying up all your money into a few ultra-high-grade cards, especially commons from a common set that happen to be desired by a small group of collectors. I'd buy solid examples of high demand players at good prices instead of taking a flyer on a few commons that happen to be in nice plastic because I don't have the bankroll to handle the latter. I also agree with the poster who remarked that rarity should be a benchmark of purchases. Something really scarce is always going to have a market and in my view is a safer card to own than a condition rarity from a common set. If you are taking investment advice from this motley crew (your humble writer included), good heavens, don't buy cards. We'd all collect even if we were back in the church basements at a dime a card. Put your money in a nice, safe mutual fund that won't allow elite hedge funds to buy after hours...er, stock in companies that don't have to restate their earnings...er, spec houses in San Diego...er....