"football sucks"

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>A quote from Adam (I am not picking on you Adam, but your comments in the other post inspired me). <br /><br />I have two questions for board members. (1) With football undeniably the most popular American sport, why do vintage football collectibles continue to lag behind their baseball counterparts? Is it the relative lack of material? (2) Many of you have expressed your utter disdain for the sport of football and I have always wondered why it is such a turnoff for you.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Perhaps you are working from a fallacy... "With football undeniably the most popular American sport"

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>It is hard to deny based on television ratings, merchandise sales, etc. Qualify your statement.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>I can not speak for anyone, but it seems that most of the people on this board are interested in the history of baseball, and the different issues that baseball cards provide. For me, I like caramel issues and a lot of color in my cards. It seems that football cards generally do not provide this for me. Football memorabilia also seem scarce from the early 1900's other than some college material. Baseball's rich history and crazy stories seem to capture the imagination of a larger group than football. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I'd be interested in it.<br /><br />It just seems like there isn't much of anything out there.<br /><br /><br />Any tobacco company put out a football set? or candy company?

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Using some generalizations:<br /><br />1. Football fans are less sophisticated than baseball fans. <br />2. With sophistication, there is a tendency for higher education. <br />3. With higher education, there is a thirst for knowledge. <br />4. A thirst of knowledge transends into a collection with meaning. <br /><br />This is the route of a baseball fan. A football fan takes a slightly different route. <br /><br />1. With less sophistication, education is not as important. <br />2. With less education, a thirst of knowledge is not important. <br />3. Without a thirst of knowledge, simple and repeated behaviors become important. <br />4. Simple behavior includes:<br /> <br />A. Buying Michigan Wolverine shirt and hat at WalMart and wearing it 7 days a week. <br />B. Posting Michigan Wolverine stickers all over your 4-Wheel Truck above the shoot them all and let god sort them out and mustache rides for free stickers. <br />C. Telling every single Ohio State Buckeye fan how ignorant and stupid the people are at Ohio State. <br />D. All of this without the Wolverine fan having ever set foot in Ann Arbor, Michigan. <br /><br />That is it in an nutshell. It is not a theorum. It is a law. <br />

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>it's an interesting topic. <br />football is america's sport....no denying that. <br />but, football collecting is still in it's infancy. similar to baseball collectibles in the 60's and 70's. <br />also, there isn't a lot of well written material on football collectibles.....so the newbie must really do their homework. <br />i do see football eventually catching up with baseball....but that may not occur for a generation or two. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I love football, but have never been interested in collecting football cards. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that baseball is so ingrained in American culture and the fact that old baseball stars are very well known (ruth, cobb, etc) - the same cant be said for old football stars - heck, I hardly recognize half the names in the football HOF.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I think football's great! I like watching it as much as baseball. I've been collecting football stuff for a while but there just seems to be more diversity in collecting baseball material. <br /><br />Lets think about this. Who is football's Babe Ruth? Who is football's Ty Cobb? <br /><br />Statistics - baseball has so many cool statistics. <br /><br />Football back in the early days was run, run and more running the ball. The offensive numbers aren't like they are today. Baseball has had HR, BA, Ks and fun numbers like that and they've been around for a long time. <br /><br />Baseball players have had more lengthy careers than football players thus creating a better opportunity to create a great following for the players. <br /><br />I don't think football sucks, I think it's great. And I like baseball too! <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>By the same token, NASCAR is rising in popularity and its card hooby and collector base is abysmal.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />I guess it depends at what level you follow the game. The broad generalization is often made that football is a violent mindless sport. In actuality, football combines the best elements of strategy, teamwork, and brute physical exertion. Of all the sports that I have played including baseball, nothing compares to football for the closeness that you feel to your teammates. This is very little that I miss about high school, but almost twenty years later I would love to have one more season to play football. <br /><br />I lived in Boston for three years and often sat in the bleachers at Fenway. Sophisticated fans? I had more beer spilled on me there and saw more fights than at any football games. I have been a regular at Steelers games since the early 90's. The fans that you describe do exist but they are the minority.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>MikeU: could you slow that down a bit so that none of us miss your meaning?<br /><br />So, it is sophisticated to hit a little white ball 400 ft. with a wooden stick, but running over a 300 lb. guard just to make sure that the opposing QB has carnal knowledge of the turf - that does not require equal brain power?<br /><br />I just gotta wonder how smart you haveta be to play golf (now thats a man's game!) Try to focus a bit here: How many fingers am I holding up?<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Ooops. I forgot the <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>There may be some of us that secretly collect both baseball and football. <br /><br />Ironically, I have only attended one NFL football game in my life. I won a trip to the New England Patriots' first Superbowl game in New Orleans in 1986.<br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>I should have put a smile face after my generalization comment. In any case, I do think that for some reason there are many more statitics geeks and history geeks in baseball than football. Fatansy Football does not count as being as serious geekdom for history or historical statistics. Also for some reason, baseball card collecting resonates much deeper for sports fans than the other sports. It has been close to 30 years that I have heard people say how undervalued football is and that the cards will sky rocket. Like I said, card collecting for Football and Nascar for that matter just does not reasonate with their fans. Most football card collectors are baseball card collectors that love football. <br /><br />For the record, I love football.

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Here are things that I think suck and I KNOW I WILL BE IN THE MINORITY: Beer, Red Meat, Seafood and Elvis Presley. I think football is great!<br /><br />Football is the most popular sport in the U.S. One thing not mentioned here is the fact that gambling plays an important role in the lust of the football fan. <br /><br />How many of these "modern philosophers at the tavern" have a parlay going or a Fantasy team he wants to tell the bar patrons about? Football is a celebration of sorts where people get together and yell at the TV. They may not be able to tell you the history of the team, who the Wright Brothers were but they can tell you that Larry Johnson rushes for 1.2 more yards per carry in night games against NFC east teams. <br /><br />The guy at the end of the bar that rotates his vintage home Walter Payton jersey and his away Brian Urlacher, his most prized possesion is a mini helmet signed by Nathan Vashar when he met him at a car dealer ship (he test drove a Saturn to get it) and owns a fake Walter Payton signed photo, doesn't give a rat's ass about Red Grange or George Halas. He does hope that Rex Grossman and Mushin Muhammad have a huge week as he has them both in his nine Fantasy leagues and that they cover with the teased points on his three teamer too. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>joe bennan</b><p>Ok Ok ...You got me. I am a closet football card collector. I guess now I can bring my football cards out of the closet. Wait, that must take a higher IQ and education to do that. I guess I'll ask a vintage card collector to help me. BTW, that the stupid statement I've heard on this board. Lower IQ's and less sophistication. What garbage. Sometime the holier than thou attitude on this board is purely sickening. <br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I could be mistaken, but I think:<br /><br />i) baseball was the most popular sport in the early 50s (mickey, duke, mays...);<br />ii) due to baseball's popularity baseball cards caught on with baby boomers;<br />iii) baseball cards started becoming valuable in the 70s and 80s (and became synonymous with card collecting) because the baby boomers wanted to remember their youth; and <br />iv) people are passionate about baseball cards today because they are particularly valuable (It's easier to be passionate about a $5k invetment than a $200 investment - this might also explain the dearth of CFL or soccer card collectors).<br /><br />I expect the relative popularity of sports will change over time - for example, Tiger Woods has made golf cards popular which I think makes some want to collect vintage golf cards. So perhaps football's popularity will eventually drive vintage football up.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...but no one really cares about it. It is not as emotionally ingrained in our collective psyches and that is because...<br /><br />...they play 16 games, 8 home games.<br /><br />The New York Yankees sell 50,000 tickets to 81 home games. Could you imagine how hard it would be to get a Yankee ticket if they only had 8 home games? <br /><br />You live and breath baseball from February through October. Every single day. <br /><br />Football is a weekly ritual for a few cold months. It provides a spring board for gamblers. <br /><br />The two so-called "New York" teams play in Jersey, with the friggin New Jersey Devils and Nets. They play in the same charmless stadium named after one of them. What a totally charmless, uninteresting situation.<br /><br />Football is monopolized by a few seconds of action followed by a timeout, or a commercial or a commercial timeout.<br /><br />Football is violent. It is based on brute force. It is angry. It is war.<br /><br />Football is dominated in high school by the big and dumb. If you were one of these guys in high school, maybe you still like football. But if you weren't, how could you cheer for that? What were you getting behind?<br /><br />But the reason that the cards don't work for football is because you can't follow a single player every day for 20 years. Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth ... these guys could be seen almost every day for a generation. Even your longest standing football players only showed up once a week for a few months over the course of a few years. Sure there are the Jerry Rice's of the world, but again, Jerry Rice played as many football games in his entire career as Derek Jeter did THIS YEAR alone. <br /><br />Baseball is much more interesting. And it's harder to do. <br /><br />Football is stupid and meaningless. Take out the alcohol, the gambling and the commercials, and you have a meaningless, boring sport for the uncomfortably big, unhealthy unwashed.<br /><br />I hate football.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>As a quiz, you could have them indentify who your avatar photo is, should keep them guessing for a while(all those astute baseball collectors) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>The problem with football is its lameness. When it solves this problem, I may care. Until then, I'd rather follow the Premiership or Project Runway,<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Baseball is different from any other sport, very different. For instance, in most sports you score points or goals; in baseball you score runs. In most sports the ball, or object, is put in play by the offensive team; in baseball the defensive team puts the ball in play, and only the defense is allowed to touch the ball. In fact, in baseball if an offensive player touches the ball intentionally, he's out; sometimes unintentionally, he's out.<br /><br />Also: in football,basketball, soccer, volleyball, and all sports played with a ball, you score with the ball and in baseball the ball prevents you from scoring.<br /><br />In most sports the team is run by a coach; in baseball the team is run by a manager. And only in baseball does the manager or coach wear the same clothing the players do. If you'd ever seen John Madden in his Oakland Raiders uniform,you'd know the reason for this custom.<br /><br />Now, I've mentioned football. Baseball & football are the two most popular spectator sports in this country. And as such, it seems they ought to be able to tell us something about ourselves and our values.<br /><br />I enjoy comparing baseball and football:<br /><br />Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game.<br />Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle.<br /><br />Baseball is played on a diamond, in a park.The baseball park!<br />Football is played on a gridiron, in a stadium, sometimes called Soldier Field or War Memorial Stadium.<br /><br />Baseball begins in the spring, the season of new life.<br />Football begins in the fall, when everything's dying.<br /><br />In football you wear a helmet.<br />In baseball you wear a cap.<br /><br />Football is concerned with downs - what down is it?<br />Baseball is concerned with ups - who's up?<br /><br />In football you receive a penalty.<br />In baseball you make an error.<br /><br />In football the specialist comes in to kick.<br />In baseball the specialist comes in to relieve somebody.<br /><br />Football has hitting, clipping, spearing, piling on, personal fouls, late hitting and unnecessary roughness.<br />Baseball has the sacrifice.<br /><br />Football is played in any kind of weather: rain, snow, sleet, hail, fog...<br />In baseball, if it rains, we don't go out to play.<br /><br />Baseball has the seventh inning stretch.<br />Football has the two minute warning.<br /><br />Baseball has no time limit: we don't know when it's gonna end - might have extra innings.<br />Football is rigidly timed, and it will end even if we've got to go to sudden death.<br /><br />In baseball, during the game, in the stands, there's kind of a picnic feeling; emotions may run high or low, but there's not too much unpleasantness.<br />In football, during the game in the stands, you can be sure that at least twenty-seven times you're capable of taking the life of a fellow human being.<br /><br />And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different:<br /><br />In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy's defensive line.<br /><br />In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! - I hope I'll be safe at home!<br /> <br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Personally, I'd love to collect cards of the pre-WWII football players, but other than 1935 National Chicle and N302 Mayo, there are none to be found <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>John Barnes</b><p>1. Football wasn't as exciting or popular in it's infancy (teens and 20s) as baseball was at that time. Thus, the players that would be featured on those cards would be less popular (if the cards even existed)<br /><br />2. I think a lot of baseball fans that hate football are jealous that baseball is not as 'fun, sexy, or popular' as football is becoming. I believe they may be bitter that baseball's time as being America's most popular sport has basically come to an end, and that means their youth has come to an end, Just a guess.<br />John

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>I actually love Football, but don't think the collecting of football will catch the heated fever of baseball in my lifetime. During football season, football is life in the US, especially here in Pittsburgh. However the season is way too short. History of pro football isn't as well studied, combined with the fact that the game is so different now. Also, true pro football didn't really exist until the 1920's and even then it was a distant second in popularity to the college game. <br />-Rhett<br /><br />John, your avatar is one ugly "Poe"son<br />

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I dont care at all about football but when i actually hate it is during the season when its all you hear about monday on espn and talk radio. A 16 game season over 17 weeks is horrible,i like following baseball day by day thru the year,i dont like waiting 6 days for the next game,especially if my team lost!<br /><br /> On the average day i watch 6 hours of baseball,usually 7pm till whenever the last game ends.I havent watched 6 hours of football in the last 6 years combined,and im hoping to continue that streak<br /><br /> My personal opinion as to why football items arent as popular is the lack of history.It hasnt been popular long enough.Also only about 5 guys per team have stats worth following thru the year while in baseball only the middle relievers are hard to follow thru stats and accomplishments

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>congrats Rhett

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I know some sophisticated football memorabilia collectors that have tremendous knowledge of the history of the game and the collectibles they own.<br /><br />Of course they all collect Nebraska football memorabilia, but some of the stuff in these folks collections goes back to the 19th century and is nothing to be scoffed at. One of these collectors actually sold a large portion of his collection in a Mastro auction a couple years ago.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>"Baseball is different from any other sport, very different. For instance, in most sports you score points or goals; in baseball you score runs. In most sports the ball, or object, is put in play by the offensive team; in baseball the defensive team puts the ball in play, and only the defense is allowed to touch the ball. In fact, in baseball if an offensive player touches the ball intentionally, he's out; sometimes unintentionally, he's out."<br /><br />Americans are nothing if not self-absorbed. There is in fact another sport where the defensive team puts the ball in play, "runs" are scored by a batsman, and only the defense is allowed to touch the ball. This mystery sport is much MORE POPULAR than baseball - there is one country alone where one billion fans - and is OLDER than baseball - you see, baseball evolved from this sport.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />You're probably talking about Crickett.<br /><br />I was working with a few of my UK counterparts a while back and they love to "base" on the USA and anything related to it. The subject of Cricket came up and one of the guys from the UK said that it's similar to baseball but there's a game played by girls called Rounders that is closer to our national past time.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Fottball is a sport for lazy fans. You only have to pay attention once a week. It's also features the least amount of action of any sport. Someone did a study one time as to how much time there was action action going on during each given sport. Basketball, hockey and soccer are all nonstop action while the clock is running. Baseball has action from the time the ball is pitched until the play ends. Football has action from the time the ball is hiked until the play ends. Baseball had an averof over 30 minutes of action in a game. Football averaged less than 12 minutes of action. That's pathetic. Less than 1 in 5 minutes of 60 minutes of game time has action. Now that's a boring game.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Now this is what I was looking for:<br /><br />"Football is dominated in high school by the big and dumb. If you were one of these guys in high school, maybe you still like football."<br /><br />I have kept in touch with most of the guys that I graduated with that were on the football team. Amongst the fourteen seniors at least have were members of the NHS (including the president). Ten of us completed college and many have earned advanced degrees. My best friend was our center and captain in high school, attended Columbia where he was probably the smallest starting DT in the IVY League at 6' and 235 lbs. He was also the captain at Columbia his senior year. I played halfback/tailback at 5'9" and 170lbs and the other guys in the backfield were similar size. My high school averaged graduating classes of around 250 which for Ohio athletics is a medium sized school.<br /><br />Some people have obviously had negative experiences with football players in high school. The movies and television only serve to reinforce the negative image expressed in the quote above and do a tremendous disservice to the game. For me, football was a big part of my character development. It taught me the importance of being a team player, to push myself beyond limitations, and the need for preparation and focus.<br /><br />Baseball is a great sport as well, don't get me wrong; I love both games. As far as vintage collectibles go, baseball has much more to offer and the history is better documented. However, I have noticed a swing in the last five years. Collecting vintage football is not as inexpensive as it once was. <br /><br />So if you are hating yourself for having the N162 Beecher because you cannot stand football, please send it to me and I will give it a happy home. Excuse me, I have take a break to smash a beer can on my forehead.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>...."Football is dominated in high school by the big and dumb. If you were one of these guys in high school, maybe you still like football."<br /><br />perhaps i took too many shots to the head playing football, but me thinks that is the dumbest thing ever said on this board. <br /><br />someone has a chip on their shoulder.....

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I will take a college football Saturday over any MLB game of the week. I will take most college bowl games over baseball playoffs. However, football suffers from these three factors.....<br /><br />1.) The lack of action. There are too many timeouts and TV breaks. If the NFL and college adopted much of the "continuous" action of the World Cup with advertising on the banners/scores, then it would be much more palatible than investing an eternity to watch.<br /><br />2.) Style over substance. Whereas baseball has been lost in the homerun, football has been even more so in end-zone antics, a lack of sportsmanship, and class. Every good play doesn't need to have a dance attached to it.<br /><br />3.) Die-hards from both sports are very intelligent and know their stuff. This especially holds true in the college game. However, the "common joe" NFL fan appeals to the LCD. "The Dog Pound", "The Hogettes", and "Raiders Nation/Black Hole" whatever attest to that. Then again, these folks also tend to be more loyal than baseball fans. <br /><br />4.) Get rid of the damned cheerleaders, especially in the NFL. They're worthless.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>James.... I was almost with you until number 4)<br /><br />don't mess with number 4!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I hate football for many reasons:<br /><br />1. I think people tend to like spectator sports that they enjoyed playing as children. I hated playing football; as a big slow white boy I was on the damn line every stinkin' time. I liked playing baseball.<br /><br />2. Every sport has a fan culture to it. NASCAR has a very southern good ol' boy culture so many of us outside the south just don't get it (they drive in circles? For hours?). Football fever also tends to be centered in the south and midwest and in industrial cities. <br /><br />3. Every sport also tends to have an athletic culture. To me, football's culture is rampant criminality and violence. You don't hear about baseball players murdering, dealing drugs, gang-raping coeds, etc., but there seems to be story after story about that sort of crap in football. Not exactly a turn-on as a fan. <br /><br />4. Football hypocritically claims civic virtue when the whole system of player development is a fraud. The majority of the players who go to universities have no business and no interest in higher education; most of them would not be there if it wasn't the minor leagues of the NFL. And before the intelligentsia of the football set jump on me here, think about the shenanigans needed to qualify many football players for universities, the classes for jocks, and the low graduation rates. Not to mention the phony jobs from boosters, cash under the table, agents circling like sharks, etc. Yet through it all the folks all pretend that these guys aren't professional athletes. I don't blame the players for this, but the system stinks. <br /><br />5. If you are an adult fan not in the south or southwest you can forget about ever seeing your football team at home in the Super Bowl. The championship game has become a corporate pig-fest totally detached from the fan base for the team unless you happen to be lucky enough to be in a city that is typically awarded a game and your team happens to win that year. I got to see the Rams-Steelers here in L.A. A Yankees-Red Sox or Dodgers-Giants home game in September is far more fan-frenzied than the Super Bowl was. <br /><br />6. I think it also boils down to whether you like individual contests or mass movements. baseball is at its core a duel between pitcher and batter. Boxing (my other favorite sport) likewise is mano a mano.

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Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p>I'm clearly in the minority of the posters in this thread - I love all sports, i just happen to focus my collecting habits on baseball.<br /><br />With some of the 'looking down on others' comments, y'all are starting to sound like registry collectors.

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Football cards are no longer cheap. The collections being built by some would rival many high end baseball card collections. In fact an sgc 96 1935 national chicle Bronko Nagurski card just sold for 240,000 dollars.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"So, it is sophisticated to hit a little white ball 400 ft."<br /><br />Yes it is. Nothing that everyone does not know, but some reminders:<br /><br />1. 30% sucess gets you in a real HOF. <br />2. The hardest thing is sports is to take a round ball and a round bat and hit is square. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I was at a party a really wealthy friend was throwing. His entourage, corporate underlings and service providers (I'm not one, so I could sit back and enjoy the ass-kissing displays) were trying to catch "daddy's" attention. One of them starting in with the golf stories to prove his prowess on the links. The host looked up, said "golf is a stupid sport" and walked away. It was a beautiful thing to see.

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>If we were interested in % of action like in Jay's post, then we would all watch soccer.<br /><br />If I recall correctly the person who said the hardest thing in sports to do is hit a baseball was Ted Williams. Not exactly a quote from an objective source. <br />Personally I think a top 10 at Ironman Hawaii, the Boston Marathon or the Tour de France is more difficult. <br /><br />Personally baseball and football is the same for me: an excuse to get together with friends and drink beer. On the other hand, I will Tivo cycling, running, and soccer and watch it if anyone else wants to watch it or not.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>cant hit a homer in football. Football does suck, especially if<br />your local team is the DETROIT LIONS !!!!!

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I agree with James, get cheerleaders off the field! Red Auerbach says that as long as he's involved with the Celtics, there will never be cheerleaders on the court. Only NBA team without cheerleaders. NBA Basketball sucks...so does Golf. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, College Football is king. Tommorow, my fat ass will be planted on the couch for eleven hours as I aim three TV's in my general direction in order to watch every minute of Notre Dame/Michigan, Oklahoma/Oregon, My Hokies destroy the Blue Devils, USC/Nebraska...<br /><br />The one thing I hate about baseball is truly meaningless baseball. Is there anything in the world worse than the Devil Rays v. Royals in September? What's the point? I'd rather watch the Buffao Bulls v. Temple or the Packers v. Raiders this year. <br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>I would watch more football if they got rid of the players, the game, and just put #4 out on the field in game-like conditions!<br /><br />On football card collecting:<br />I do collect these also, though far more sparingly. In fact, my most valuable card is a football card (a very high-end Walter Payton rookie)<br /><br />On the relative popularity of collecting football personalities:<br />I think this is still developing because of reasons cited in earlier posts, but also because these guys wear helmets and you can't see close-up photos of their faces while in action. I think this matters because people(fans) have an interest in seeing how difficult or fun a sporting action is...the grimace when a player gets hit with a pitch, slides into second headfirst, eyes popped wide open while trying to hit a ball, the pitcher's stare down into the catcher's signs, etc...A player's face is actually what alot of fans use to identify with while watching an event, baseball or otherwise...don't you catch yourself wondering what the first baseman is saying to the newly-arrived baserunner after a single that has them both laughing so hard???<br />It's like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it...if guys are laughing on the football field, it's a secret....<br /><br />Just a thought...<br />Jason

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I disagree with your assertion that football is undeniably the most popular sport. You made the claim, and I disagree. I don't tie merchandising and television ratings directly to popularity - I got up every morning at sun-up, every day during the summer, to play baseball. I stopped when my mother came out to the field and started yelling at me. There was no merchandising involved and I didn't watch much baseball on t.v., but I sure as hell bought tons of baseball cards. On the other hand, we rarely ever missed a football game on television - did that make it 'undeniably more popular'?...I don't think so.<br /><br />But I do like the argument some are making that baseball was more popular back in the '30s, so cards became popular and had an advantage over football that football never recovered from, also the stats angle that appeals to some collectors.<br /><br />No, football isn't America's sport - baseball is. Argue all you want about it, but we all know who the 'boys of summer' are. Who are the 'boys of fall'?

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'm a huge baseball fan, but all-time favorite sport is Australian Rules Football, or Footie as it's known Down Under. The game is the perfect American sport. It's fast paced, high scoring and violent. Second place if Ultimate Fighting. When they changed the rule that forces fighters in the gaurd to get back to their feet if the opponent does come after them, made for a lot more interesting fights because you didn't have guys immediately dropping to the gaurd position anymore. It's makes boxing look like a pillow fight.<br /><br />Jay- has actually seen a game of elephant polo<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Yes Warshawlaw, being self employed gives you a different perspective on ass-kissing. But what I most enjoy is the expression of success that some employees exhibit following a particularly well implemented (in their eyes) session.<br /><br />And Jay: HaHaHa. Elephant polo? What could be better? Perhaps mud wrestling turtles in thong bikinis!<br /><br />But really guys, if it wasn't for the history and the stats - we wouldn't be here. Although we may be in a bar arguing about it anyway. Actually tho, football is lots of action, while baseball is ?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Baseball has more action than football. The difference is that Americans want their action violent and baseball's action isn't violent, while football is about as violent as get, next boxing and UFC.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> DJ,watching a Royals vs Devil Rays game in September isnt as bad as you made it sound,especially if you follow minor league baseball and you know the minor leaguers that are getting playing time. I'll watch any baseball game tho so im not the best person to ask but its good to finally see the prospects that i read and follow all summer.Some of the most interesting games to me are ones i cant see,the Arizona Fall League games played after the season.Each organizations sends 5-6 players down there and they all play against each other.<br /><br /> I wish there was an MLB channel that televised those games and spring training games to make the offseason go by quicker but as boring as the offseason is,id rather watch basketball or nothing than watch football

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Another point is that many huge football fans are fans of College Football (like myself), as opposed to NFL, while with baseball fans it's primarily MLB, not so much college. I was lucky in that when I lived in Atlanta we had the regionals at Georgia Tech and Athens quite a bit, so we got some great college baseball, but that's not the norm. Also, college baseball, even the playoffs leading to the CWS, aren't anywhere near at the same level as MLB, while college football is frequently better than NFL (as a spectator sport anyway). <br /><br /><br />All just opinions.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Here is a little personal story to put football card collecting into perspective. At this years National, I had a conversation with Randy Stuckemeyer. He was the seller of the SGC 96 Bronko for $240,00. I asked him why did he sell the card? He had a few key comments:<br /><br />1. It's football. <br />2. The general public does not even know Bronko, even though it is the Honus Wagner of football cards. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I absolutely love college football. I'm navigating through 4 games as we speak. If the NFL game doesn't feature the Ravens or Redskins and is in the regular season, I'm not watching it. I also feel the NFL should eliminate the "Two Minute Warning". Another meaningless timeout that drags games into eternity

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I like football, but dislike the modern presentation. I can live without exploding animated scoreboards and video game sound effects. Also, every fourth announcer is paid to act like an idiot. I don't terribly mind Terry Bradshaw, but it's obvious that acting like a giggling hick is his schtick ... My personal rule for announcing football game is that there should never be more two announcers for a game, as there is limited air space and two good announcers say all that needs to be said. The tv execs know that they need two compentent announcers for a game(play by play and color commentator), but can do what they want with the frivolous third position. For example, Dennis Miller could only exist as a football anouncer on a three position staff. He couldn't on a two.<br /><br />Though when I was growing up, the Green Bay Packers radio color commontator was Max McGee. The rumor was that he didn't make much sense in the fourth quarter because he started drinking in the first....I remember when the Packers were considering getting a cheer leading squad. Max got in a bit of trouble, because he said on the air that they couldn't field a squad as there weren't enough good looking women in the area.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Man I love college football. Some of my fondest memories are going to Michigan games with my Pops as a kid and then going as a college student(don't remember much about those however). Autumn to me is playoff baseball and Saturday's at the Big House. <br /><br />The 55 Topps All-American set is a classic and it's the only football set I collect. I love the artwork and nostalgic feel of the set.

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>I have lost interest in football. I'm not sure why. But I still have my Topps 1955 All America set and my Topps 1960 set. One of my favorite players was "Big Daddy" Lipscomb, who would probably be too small to play today.

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Posted By: <b>bill</b><p>many years back I was a hall of fame fanatic<br />baseball, basketball, hockey, and football.<br />there really isn't much prewar football<br />but I did find some silver matchbooks that I bought for <br />1-2 dollars each many years back<br />decided I needed to sell them, so about a year <br />ago I sold them on ebay<br />was pleasently shocked at the prices I got for themalso had a great don hutson wheaties in my opinion the<br />greatest receiver of all time look up his numbers.<br /><br />arnie herber $523.00<br />clarke hinkle $260.00<br />red grange $325.09<br />bronko nagurski $520.00<br />cal hubbard $341.00<br />don hutson $355.00 paid $33.00 for that one<br /><br /><img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/hsacmron/1935dh.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/hsacmron/match2.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>When Don Hutson retired he held the all time pro records of 99 touchdowns, 488<br />receptions and 7,991 recieiving yards. Second all time in those categories were 37 <br />touchdowns, 190 receptions and and 3,309 yards.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>but not necessarily the cards<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1158502011.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Joe Tocco</b><p>I like baseball, but I love football. Maybe it's because I grew up in one of those Midwest industrial cities and football was king (and still is, in Ohio). But then again, my brother has made baseball his career (radio play-by-play for the Southern League champs Montgomery - and Southern League broadcaster of the year <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) and feels about football how I do about baseball. <br /><br />One of the things I love about football is what others here hate: There are only 16 games. Each game is like sweeping three 3-game series' in baseball, or being swept. Every game is an event. Every game is huge. That's also why I love how it's played, vs. "continuous action" sports - each down is its own event. Each down feels special. Each down has its own character... 1st and 10 is an entirely different event than 3rd and 2. I like the way baseball is played too for that reason, but the majority of pitches are thrown with no one on base, and they all "feel" the same to me. I'm sure that's because I'm an unsophisticated fan, and my brother would chastise me for not understanding how a slider low and away on a 3-1 count in the 5th inning differs from a 2-2 changeup down broadway in the 3rd, but I'm not particularly inclined to learn. Football is every bit as complex, and although I hate throwing stones, anyone who says otherwise just doesn't understand the game. Neither game is intrinsically superior to the other.<br /><br />Baseball naturally lends itself better to statistics buffs, and because of how each sport evolved in this country lends itself better to historians. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noted that those sports fans who are more interested in statistics are more likely to collect cards. And clearly those who are interested in history are more likely to collect.<br /><br />Vintage baseball cards are awesome. There are so many options, so much incredible photography, awe-inspiring artwork, and CHOICES, just so many ways to collect. I'm jealous of baseball collectors. I would kill for an Ernie Nevers Ramly, and I would die happy if I could lay eyes on a T3 Thorpe (don't chastise me for shifting my eras by a decade or two to make a point <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>). We have the Chicles with an art-deco design that doesn't really speak to football collectors, and the Mayos with a collection of college players no one has heard of. Wheaties boxes? Matchbook covers? A smattering of other cards in multi-sport sets? Ho hum. Vintage baseball cards are infinitely more appealing than vintage football.<br /><br />What football collecting has going for it are the demographics of the collecting base. The vast majority of collectors are fans, and the majority of collectors became fans and collectors in their youth. Football has gained in popularity vs. baseball in the last 30 years. I won't argue if it has surpassed baseball, but in a relative sense it has made gains. That alone will inevitably lead to an increased relative demand in the next 30 years. None of these arguments are new to any of you, but it's worth stating.<br /><br />Bottom line: Keep buying baseball cards, vintage football is terrible <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joe

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Good piece of writing, man. An A Plus post!<br><br>Good pitching will always beat good hitting and vice versa.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Football and football memorabilia is closely tied to colleges, alma <br />matters, college school colors, etc. A 1950 Big 10 program can be more <br />valuable than a 1950 NFL program. This makes it distinct to baseball.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>And on that note...Take the pain Fighting Irish fans...overrated and overhyped as usual. You got what you deserved, a severe beat down in your own house.

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Posted By: <b>Greg</b><p>Seeing that I have nothing else better to do, and it appears that there is a love for irrelevant bashing on here, I would like to change the direction of this thread to "Lima Beans Suck." After all, most of us can probably agree that the lima bean is truly one of the most aweful vegetables out there (or perhaps it is not a vegetable after all, how ignorant of me if I am wrong, but I'll just say it anyway because it is apparently fine to say just anything you want to on here).<br /><br />For the life of me, I simply cannot understand the rationale people have for seizing any opportunity they can get in order to just say something negative about something, especially if it has no relevance at all (especially the part about football being less intelligent than baseball, how utterly ignorant, and what the heck does one have to do with the other? That's like saying apples are more intelligent than oranges, or brain surgeons are more intelligent than cardiac surgeons). And for those who are offended by the word "ignorant", please look it up in the dictionary.<br /><br />So you don't like football, or soccer, or.....should any of us care? I don't like the ballet, but why on earth would I start a post like "Ballet Sucks" on a vintage baseball card forum? Is it supposed to make me feel better? Is it to hurt ballerinas or those who love the ballet? Do you think ballerinas or ballet afficianados give a crap about what I think anyway? <br /><br />Narrowmindedness never gets you anywhere, unless you're trying to get a mob of like-narrowminded people together for the sole sake of making yourself feel better or to spread hatred and dissent. <br /><br />I should probably clerify that this sentiment is not just for this baseball/football dispute, but for all of the childish negative threads that occasionally pop up here. Wouldn't life be a little more easy and enjoyable if we all just tried to broaden our minds or at least tolerate others that may not share our own point of view?<br /><br />Something also tells me I would rather hang out with a bunch of guys tossing down a few beers watching whatever game happens to be on the tube than anyone sitting with a group all pissing and moaning that they don't like something just because it's different from their primary interest. <br /><br />I wish I could contribute more to the board on vintage cards. Problem is, I'm just starting out and am trying to learn the hobby so I have nothing to contribute on them (and as a result I don't feel it appropriate just to say something just to hear myself speak, er, type). But this is beyond card knowledge, it's nothing different than what I would say to my 8 year old if she behaved just as badly.<br /><br />Just my two cents, not that it's worth anything.<br /><br />OK.....go ahead and bash me. I'm a big boy.<br /><br />Greg<br /><br />(Who thoroghly enjoyed being glued to the tube yesterday watching a Patriot victory sandwiched in between two beautiful slices of downtrodden, ripped apart, going nowhere fast, BoSox beating those Damn Yankees - despite the admiration I have for the season New York put up)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>and I hate people like that <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Inasmuch as most NASCAR fans are also football fans, that ought to say alot about the relative intelligence of baseball versus football fans. I live in the South and can attest to the relative IQ or lack thereof of most NASCAR fanatics. What a thrill- watching cards constantly making left hand turns.<br />I enjoy watching college football, I enjoy watching some pro football games but I love watching baseball, truly the American pasttime. Besides, how many of us grew up being excellent in math because we used football statistics to learn how to multiply and divide? Zero. I remember figuring out all those ERAs and batting averages of the players...

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Posted By: <b>Bill K</b><p>I LOVE football!! I would watch Dartmouth play Penn over a MLB game any day, and would watch good Big Ten or NFL game no matter who is playing over a playoff or world series game unless the Twins were involved. I have an utter disdain for today's baseball. Other than following the Twins by watching ESPN or looking for box-scores periodically on-line I could care less about the sport. I do absolutely love the dead-ball era and would rather read about it, research it, and collect the cards than watch any football game (even the Vikings).<br /><br />"Football is war" is about the most ignorant comment I have read on this board in some time. War is war Paul. Tell your story to the troops overseas. Football is a game. Is baseball war because they have bench clearing brawls, throw at batters, and bowl over a catcher at a play at the plate?<br /><br />Bill<br><br>My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Who said football is war? Someone quoted George Carlin's old comedy routine comparing baseball and fotball showing how football terms are centered around war and baseball terms much less violent and much mroe friendly.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Bill, <br /><br />I never said anything like that if you were referring to me.

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Posted By: <b>Bill K</b><p>Not you Paul Stratton, but T-206 Collector did in his post near the top 1/3.<br /><br />It also wasn't referencing a George Carlin act (that I can recall).<br /><br />Bill<br><br>My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Ok Bill. I didn't know his name was Paul and I missed his post. My bad.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>is that football sucks. No matter how much you rationalize it, try to explain it, etc., watching football is torture. Everything about it sucks. It sucks to play it as a child unless you happen to be a pituitary case. It sucks to be around the blockhead mentality of football players in high school. It sucks to read the rap sheet, er sports page, about the stunning degree of cheating in college football programs (Reggie Bush, anyone; hey, at least he didn't rape any exotic dancers). It sucks to watch a bunch of overgrown steroid jockeys pumped up on greenies slam into each other and fall in a pile then behave like they just killed a lion. <br /><br />They should use the NFL on terror suspects; after a few weeks of watching NFL pregame shows, bad games, and post game shows, they'll spill their guts. <br /><br />I'm kidding...don't stuff me in a locker.