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08-29-2006, 08:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>I realize this is a little off-topic, but I think it's close enough. I just came across an advertisement for the latest "product" Topps is hyping. They're calling it "possibly the greatest card ever." Here's the text ...<br /><br />"On October 11th, Topps will release one of the most stunning baseball card products ever produced – Topps Sterling Baseball.<br /><br />Not only will Topps Sterling include a “player-touched” Autographed Relic or Relic (all cards feature 3 or more relic pieces) numbered to 10 or less, but it will feature what may turn out to be one of the most coveted trading cards in the modern hobby era.<br /><br />Several months ago, Topps announced it had signed an exclusive deal with the legendary slugger Josh Gibson’s estate. Topps also announced that it had purchased one of two known Josh Gibson game model bats. Since, Gibson Bat Relic cards have been issued in Topps Triple Threads and will also be highlighted in Topps Allen & Ginter.<br /><br />But, Topps tucked away the most treasured part of the bat, so it could create Gibson’s ultimate trading card. And now for the first time, Topps offers a taste of its upcoming product with a sneak peek at the Topps Sterling Josh Gibson Bat Barrel 1/1 Relic Card.<br /><br />More details to come on the all-new Topps Sterling Baseball."<br /><br />I realize collectors are split on the merits of cards like these. Personally, I am horrified at the thought of someone slicing up one of two known Josh Gibson bats. I guess it's only a matter of time before the folks at Topps figure out a way to embed each of Ty Cobb's false teeth into a limited edition series of cards ...

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08-29-2006, 08:07 PM
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I just had a great idea. How about chopping up T206 Wagners and pasting 1/16th inch squares of them onto 2007 limited edition Topps baseball cards. If they make less than 50 of them, that would make them rarer than the T206 Wagner.<br />JimB

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08-29-2006, 08:23 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Not only is this stupid, it is also converting something historic into garbage. Those bat and jersey cards are not "just like" owning a bat or a jersey, they are like owning a piece of lint.

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08-29-2006, 08:32 PM
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>For modern players who have yet to retire I think it is a great idea for the kids (pieces of jersey, bat, etc.) but for items with a finite supply it bothers me. My preference would be to donate some of these items to museums so everyone can enjoy them.

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08-29-2006, 08:40 PM
Posted By: <b>Mark Turner</b><p>as we know it. A jersey should be sold whole, not in pieces. A bat should be sold whole, not splintered up.

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08-29-2006, 08:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Yes, to cutting up stuff of modern current players... for 2 reasons, stuff of Sheffield, Puckett, Carter and the like, it should be cut up. And if sticking the residue on a card gets a kid interested in card collecting, all the better.<br /><br />No, to cutting up Josh's bat, or other historically significant stuff.<br /><br />And NO to donating such stuff to museums. Once they have stuff they can store it in a basement, out of sight, or they can sell it. LOAN it to a museum. That way you retain control, and the public can see the stuff.<br /><br />Frank.

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08-29-2006, 08:58 PM
Posted By: <b>High Grade Non Sports Buyer</b><p>Is this good for the bottom line & the TOPP stock price?<br /><br />My opinion, cutting up vintage Americana is reprehensible.<br /><br />The person owning the sole remaining bat might be elated.

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08-29-2006, 09:03 PM
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>When are these clowns going to make "Liberty Bell" cards and "Mona Lisa" cards. They keep destroying historic artifacts to make a buck, and all the guys collecting this modern junk just keep encouraging it.

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08-29-2006, 09:05 PM
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>What about "Mr. Mint" cards... they'd come slabbed, of course.

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08-29-2006, 09:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>What's wrong with owning an affordable piece of history. Having a full Josh Gibson hanging in some rich guy's closet does nothing for anybody.

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08-29-2006, 09:31 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>If you really think about it, what good really is a one inch by one piece of Josh Gibson's bat? I mean really, of what use is that you anyone? It's simply a crime to tear apart a piece of history and make it "affordable" in such a non-important manner. This is simply attention grabbing, trying to get people excited about what many of us would call "a dying industry". <br /><br />Total desparation as the the entire idea of collecting baseball cards seems to be lost to this new generation. I personally lost interest in cards in the late 1990's when the companies started to out do each other with more expensive models with the "You did that? We'll we'll do this then!". When I was a kid, it was all about baseball cards and every cent I had was spent toward packs. <br /><br /><br />DJ

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08-29-2006, 09:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Wow, that is one seriously flawed argument. Chopping Josh's bat up into meaningless chips of wood is irretrievably stupid. It can't be undone. When this madness is over, we will be left with nothing but regret. I can't afford the bat and never will be able to, but I'd rather it hang intact in Bill Gates' closet than to be destroyed. Where's King Solomon when you need him? C'mon my lawyer friends, if you can sue a developer to keep them from razing an historical landmark, can't some kind of injunction be filed against Topps for this?<br /><br />--Chad

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08-29-2006, 10:27 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Todd</b><p><br />So how is sawing up a Gibson bat any diferent from cutting apart a Reach guide? Maybe a difference in degree, but certainly not in kind. Those (insert favorite pejorative description here) are also destroying something irreplaceable to make a few bucks. Though from the frequency of listings for these things, either there's a nearly inexhaustible supply of guides--which I doubt--or they have trouble finding enough guppies to feed on their bait.<br /><br />May they perish in a pyre of 1999 Chrome cards.<br /><br />Bill

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08-29-2006, 10:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>I'd rather Topps make a card of Josh Gibson sort of like the 1940 Playball set of past players. If something like that hasn't been done already...I haven't paid much attention to new issues at all..

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08-29-2006, 10:56 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jim, I beat you to the Wagner idea long ago <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> The proof is here in a very old post somewhere on the board.<br /><br />What I don't get is how these people keep getting suckered into buying this crap. It's hotter than the sun when it forst comes out, but I haven't seen any appreciable market for the stuff a few years later. If you truely like this kind of stuff, then it would seem to be prudent to wait a few years and then buy the stuff you want and hope it hasn't been thrown out with the trash yet.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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08-29-2006, 11:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>There was an article about this in SCD a couple of months ago. I meant to post about it then. Truly tragic. Topps actually bragged about the fact that they were cutting up one of two known Gibson bats. I can't wait to buy a card with slivers of Michaelangelo's David in it. Or maybe chunks of the crucifix.

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08-30-2006, 12:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>lol Jim B, i said the same thing months ago. I wondered why there was no Upper Deck or Topps cards with piece of a t206 wagner. I bet they'll get part of a wagner and plank and put it on the card. I just wonder if people who get this card( if in fact they make it ) will consider their half inch of a wagner part of their t206 set.

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08-30-2006, 01:20 AM
Posted By: <b>John_B_California</b><p>Anyone that chops up a rare and desirable bat should be banned from baseball IMO. Madness is an understatement.<br /><br />

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08-30-2006, 02:52 AM
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>This is worse than having to hear why George W. Bush is such a great president and why we should stay in Iraq (or use the antipodal) and why my opinions to the contrary are "flawed," "stupid" and the subject matter, "crap." What gives? Why can't you people respect others' opinions and collecting interests and not get so personal about it? If you don't like the game-used material, don't buy it, but keep your self-righteous viewpoints to yourself, or express them in an objective manner.<br /><br />Much like with debating politics and religion, one view point is rarely "right." Fine- debate it, but do so in an adult manner and not like we did in the school yard. I'm assuming most people on here are adults, as I didn't see Sean here.

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08-30-2006, 08:12 AM
Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I dabble a tad in modern, and never fear folks, Topps pulled a fast one on everyone in the hobby. The Topps Sterling and Pristine cards are cut barrels from one of his model bats that he ordered from Louisville Slugger. That's right, it most likely never even saw game-action. Modern hobbyists are up in arms over it.

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08-30-2006, 09:29 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Whether it is game used or not is not the point. Anything directly associated with Gibson's career is extremely rare and destroying it for a buck is reprhensable.<br /><br />Cobby- Do you think we should just chop up every historically significant item put the little pieces in cards? What will we have left if this happens? Imagine walking thru the Baseball HOF and not being alble to see a complete uniform or a game used bat. You may think it's OK, or suposrt those who do, but it's not the kind of world I'd want to live in.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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08-30-2006, 09:47 AM
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Cobby,<br /><br />I respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding vintage material being destroyed for cards. You are entitled to your opinion and no judgement should be made regarding your intelligence. As I stated before these pieces should reside (and should be displayed - good point Frank) in a museum so everyone can enjoy them.

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08-30-2006, 10:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I think I've posted this story before.<br /><br />I used to feel pretty strongly about not destroying pieces of memorabilia to be put into cards.<br /><br />One day, my 10-year-old son and I went out and bought some modern baseball cards and opened the packs together. He's not particularly interested in baseball. As we opened the packs, one of these cards was included that had a chunk of Bobby Thomson's bat on it. My son immediately became very interested - Who is Bobby Thomson? What did he do? <br /><br />We wound up having a whole conversation about the 1951 season, which led to a later conversation about the 1946-64 Yankees. These are pieces of history that he'd never asked about, and one tiny chunk of wood led to him learning about the Brooklyn Dodgers, the Yankees, and guys like Casey Stengel, Billy Martin, and even John McGraw.<br /><br />So here you have a little kid who pulls a piece of wood out of a pack of baseball cards, and now can trace John McGraw to Casey Stengel to Billy Martin. He'd never asked me about baseball history before - he'd never shown an interest.<br /><br />Seems worth it to me. So now I have a little more appreciation for this stuff. Granted, it was only Bobby Thomson and not Josh Gibson, but you get the point.<br /><br />-Al

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08-30-2006, 01:46 PM
Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Jay and John-<br />Well put and I certainly respect your opinion. I also agree that everything in sight should NOT be compromised. Personally, I collect a lot of the really nice (in my opinion) logos from modern players. These don't have a particular historical value, IMO, but I think they add nicely to my collection.<br />As for, for example the Gibson bat, it's not something I would want a piece of and I can see the argument there. Perhaps some thought should be given to the "heirs" (or whomever owns these pieces) and their priorities in preserving versus unloading these items. Just a thought.<br />Thanks, guys, for your thoughtful comments and AL, I agree- they allow one to "get in the game."

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08-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>Topps has it all wrong, the most valuable modern era cards will be the Active DNA Series in which each card will contain a small vial of a superstars blood or.................

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08-30-2006, 02:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Perhaps like relics of the Saints, we could have bone chip cards of deceased hall of famers. Maybe a drawing of the Babe telling some child, "Hey, kid! You want a piece of me?" on each pack.

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08-30-2006, 02:52 PM
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Who sells these things to Topps knowing full well what they will do with them? I believe they are equally culpable. It is not like that bat would not sell to someone who would appreciate it for a king's ransom in a Mastro auction. But then again, maybe Topps is winning these sorts of items in auctions.<br />JimB

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08-30-2006, 02:55 PM
Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I'm just wondering why one or both of the only two Josh Gibson bats known to exist weren't in the Hall of Fame in the first place. <br /><br />I've got nothing against game-used memorabilia cards, but when you're destroying one bat of only two that exist, it makes about as much sense as hunting an endangered species to extinction.

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08-30-2006, 03:34 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>An autographed card from an old-timer would likely have inspired the same conversation. And left a gamer intact.<br /><br />I guess what irks me is "creating" memorabilia by destroying historical artifacts. It just seems wrong to tear the past into unrecognizable bits and parcel it out like that.

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08-30-2006, 03:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I'm not sure about that, in my case.<br /><br />My office at home has vintage cards and photos displayed all around it. There's an entire wall of SGC-slabbed HOF cards from the 19th century to today. There are two more walls of photos of guys like Jackie Robinson, Christy Mathewson, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Hank Greenberg, Bob Feller, etc. There are cards everywhere - I'm immersed in them, and my son's not impressed. One time I sat him down and said "Let me tell you why Jackie Robinson is one of the most important men who ever lived." Other than that, he's never been that interested.<br /><br />It was the concept of a piece of a BAT, stuck to a card, that interested him. This is really a piece of his bat? Who was he? When did he play? What made him so special? <br /><br />He likes basketball, and he's got a bunch of basketball cards (thanks largely to my friend Jay Wolt). He likes those relic cards, with a piece of Jason Kidd or Shaq's jersey attached. But he's got no interest in baseball cards.<br /><br />But man, that bat got him asking questions.<br /><br />-Al

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08-30-2006, 10:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff</b><p>I hate the Game Used cards that they make. <br />How can you take a piece of memerabilia and cut it up. <br />Why not make it a redemption item and give away the entire bat/jersey/glove/base/jock strap.<br /><br />I also wondered when they would cut up a card.<br />Figuring the first would be a 52 Topps Mantle.

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08-30-2006, 11:52 PM
Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>If Topps was smart, the Josh Gibson promo Cards would be redeemable for the complete bat in some kind of publicized and televized drawing with several consolation prizes, not the cut up shredded wood pieces and the publicity would be much better for them...<br /><br />I have already cut up my Topps stock documents and shredded it to sell as authentic Topps garbage on e bay...<br /><br />Bring back Sy Berger, at least he had class....

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08-31-2006, 12:13 AM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Notice that Topps calls the bat 'game model' not game used.

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08-31-2006, 10:46 AM
Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>With vintage memorabilia being given out as prizes. The only downfall to the contest was that everyone had to pay taxes on their winnings and I think maybe one of the five winners could afford to keep their prize they won in the contest.<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich

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08-31-2006, 11:08 AM
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>The card companies could balance marketing and respect for the history of the game, but apparently they don't.<br /><br />For instance, I wouldn't have a problem with the card companies taking a few swatches from a jersey from somewhere that is not otherwise visible -- like the inside fold of a seam. To me, that is a way to create interest in the product and the game (as Al has pointed out) without destroying the jersey.<br /><br />And there seems to me to be less destructive ways to obtain "bat relics" than slicing up the whole bat. Couldn't Topps have bored out a thin cylinder of wood from the top of the bat, down through the barrell? That's not ideal, but at least the bat would still exist.<br /><br />But for Topps and Upper Deck to completely destroy vintage Ruth jerseys, and Gibson bats, etc., is ridiculous, and probably does long term damage to their brands (we'll have to wait and see about that).

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08-31-2006, 11:52 AM
Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>It was Donruss that cut up the Ruth Jersey.<br /><br />Rich