For collectors sake, PLEASE stop attacking PSA

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Posted By: <b>Stan</b><p>I keep reading and reading how terrible PSA is with all their errors and mistakes and so on and on and on...<br />I respect PSA, SGC, BGS and GAI.<br />They are trying their best not to mislead us as far as grading goes.<br />Let's talk about collecting and historical facts and the beauty and artistry of magnificent cards.<br />I was happy and not so hapy at times with PSA and SGC depending on grades.<br />However, grading is subjective and not extremely perfect at times.<br /><br />Buy and collect whatever pleases your mind and your pocket.

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>It's kinda, sorta quality control. I believe it's healthy for the hobby to critique aslong as it's fair. (Culling the herd)<br /><br />No service is exempt from scrutiny. ie; This ain't Doggie Miller (I forget who it is)...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1155641753.JPG"> <br /><br />*May be Joe Miller shortstop of the Minneapolis Millers (Western League)

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>hi stan,<br />i agree 100% with both you and steve too. <br />i wish we would all stop the grader bashing.<br />this site can be a wonderful resource for vintage collectors, but we (the board) has a propensity for pointing out every error found on ebay.<br />in the overall scope, both sgc and psa do a good job of third party grading which is inherently subjective.<br />we can disagree with their grades, but as pointed out previously, we could all come up with different grades for the same card.<br />some of the errors that misidentify cards are unforgivable....but they are just that, errors that can be corrected. <br />also, i think when reading the "bashing" threads, we need to look beyond the thread and see what the poster's real agenda is. <br />many of our collections have significant value and the market's perception of certain grading companies can affect the value of one's collection.<br />i use both companies, and like you said stan, i have been pleased and disappointed with both....but overall i think both sgc and psa do a fairly good job.<br /><br />so, let's get back to the history cards......and not get so hung up on the grades they are assigned.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>You will see the PSA bashing minimized when PSA actually developes some sort of customer service and owns up to their mistakes. PSA takes their queue from the Bush administration and denies mistakes, even after they presented with overwhelming evidence. Their handling of the Magie card fiasco is a prime example of of PSA's true attitude towards it customer. If PSA had the same level of customer service that SGC has, you wouldn't seen all the harsh words hurled towards PSA.<br /><br />Besides, this board would really suck if it was a shiney, happy version of Disney where is sugar and syrup. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br />A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>jay,<br />how would sgc or gai have handled a missing $8,000 card?<br />would they just say sorry and write a check?<br />or would they contest the fact that they ever received the card? <br />how do most companies handle a loss? <br /><br />i'm not saying what psa did to dan was the right thing to do, but it certainly isn't unheard of in the business world.....that's why our civil legal system is needed. <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>That's exactly the point, they handled it in the worst possible way. All you ahve to do is look at how SGC handled the Doyle debacle to see the major difference in customer service philosophies. That is a big reason why SGC has many die hard supports and won people over from PSA.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"They are trying their best not to mislead us as far as grading goes."<br /><br />you forgot the "everybody makes mistakes and grading is subjective" mantra that PSA has become so famous for.<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The thing that irks me most about "grading is subjective" is why bother having criteria listed for a given grade? If it truely is subjective, then there is no real need for them since PSA doesn't seem to pay attention to them anyway.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>grading is subjective. <br />the criteria is a guideline.<br />anytime you have a human being giving an opinion, with or without consideration to a set criteria, you have a subjective result.<br />perhaps one day a robot or computer will be able to grade cards, but until the human element is removed grading will always be subjective.<br />umpires in baseball have a set criteria, but their decision is subjective.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p><font color="blue" size="+1"><b> "For collectors sake, PLEASE stop attacking PSA"</b></font><br /><br />Stan,<br /><br />That's like asking a three pack-a-day smoker to quit. That's like telling a crack addict to put down the pipe. That'd be like telling Homer Simpson that he shouldn't drink BEER...<br /><br /><br />Trashing PSA is like a past time, a hobby (of sorts), a way to vent, a right of passage for those that dare not post to a forum where they may not have a lot of knowledge about cards but where that person can express their displeasure of having some kid that knows little or nothing about this hobby poorly pass judgement on their card.<br /><br />PSA is Goliath... PSA is the thousand pound gorilla. Sure they screw up, why not publicize it. Maybe it will inspire them (and other reputable grading companies) to do a better job. Some will say that PSA doesn't care. I'm sure someone there does but maybe not the right people that can do something about it. Maybe the right people do care and maybe they're just too inept to do anything about it. <br /><br />Stan, <br /><br />Honestly though, you're probably right about this topic because we see so many posts on the subject and it does get old (PSA and other grading company mistakes). <br /><br />Now what doesn't get old is the good old PSA bashing that we do here... <br /><br />Assume that a post that ends with a smiley face indicates that the post is meant to be non-confrontational and it wasn't posted in a way where it should be perceived as someone peeing in your Cheerios...<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Are there issues with grading companies in the comic book, stamp and coin world, similar to the card world? <br /><br />Is there a "reputable" company that gets pounded like PSA for their somewhat inconsistent grading policies or is everything simply cool on that front?<br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>Jay...real good analogy..Bush and PSA. Blame Bush for everything...Katrina, Mother Nature, Islamic Facism, and now a lack of PSA Customer Service! You are absolutely right, PSA tried to follow the Bush doctrine of Government Management and now their customer service is in the toilet. Why didn't I think of that! Simply brilliant observation on your part.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Thanks so much for putting words in my mouth that I never said. I was going to go on a rant about how corrupt the Bush admistration is, but this not the place for it, but I do stand by my anology. The administration, just like PSA has never admitted to any major mistake it has made. They instead like to deflect the attention to some other issue.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>jay,<br />i don't want this to deteriorate into a political discussion, but just for my own info.....what administration has ever admitted to "major mistake"? <br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Andy and Jay....please take that one off line....I was about to say something before but hoped another post wouldn't pop up. Nothing personal. Politics, religion, and talking about folks families are all major taboos on the board. I have very little tolerance for that stuff. I am a dick to everyone about it, otherwise back to topic.....PSA gets what they get. If the other companies screw up they get what they get too....regards

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Stan, I would love to own a company where all of my customers had your attitude - having no accountability and no fear that the primary board (uncensored board, anyway) for discussing my product would promise to only say good things about it, would allow me to drastically reduce expenses, etc. Sigh.

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Exactly Scott! Wouldnt we all want something that easy. Keep em coming as far as i am concerned. Maybe when it finally hits their pocketbook they will be enticed to improve public relations. Most people can understand a blunder or two but the point is what do you do about it? The spotty customer service which i have first hand experience with is more on topic. It is a completely human element, hence, why customer service should be given such strong consideration.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I do not attack PSA. I defend against their attacks.<br /><br />Here we have a self proclaimed authority who muscles into my hobby, makes the rules on how I must evaluate my cards, then is inconsistent in adhereing to their own rules.<br /><br />This is not my attack on them.<br />But really, give me a break.<br /><br />There was a time when the collector needed a defense against dealer's bullying. PSA was there to help. Thank you PSA!<br /><br />Now the collector has educated himself (and herself) adequately, we have the ebay alternate venue and no longer need PSA's help.<br /><br />But PSA can provide a useful function for us now. This function is as follows.<br /><br />1) provide consistent grading so that our high grade collections can be evaluated on an even basis (i.e. buy the card and the holder).<br />2) provide encapsulation which is hermetically sealed to eliminate environmental contamination, and do not accomodate cards being cracked for resubmission (I know that is one of your profit centers, but drop it - be consistent).<br />3) Honor your mistakes, as a professional would do. We all make them, we all admit to them, be a man.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I really don't like bashing PSA either but I have to say I was disappointed with Joe Orlando's tepid response on HBO regarding the Wagner. Did he really need his staff to examine it to determine if it is real? Don't you think he knew at a glance that it was a fake? I would have respected him more if he just came out and said it.

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p><br />I'm hoping The Mango starts his own grading service, if only to put an end to these types of discussions once and for all. <br /><br />(There's probably a really good "Stop racial profiling in the card industry" joke in here somewhere too. I hope someone can find it.)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>Although some of you would have liked to see Joe state more readily that this Wagner was a blatant fake, he does work for corporate America and he did do a good job in bringing up that at no time did the magnificant two-some bring the card to PSA to officially evaluate.<br />Joe could not really come out and state the obvious, he has people to answer to, he was diplomatic. It was politically correct for Joe to respond on TV the way he did, maybe he wanted to state that card was fake but I guess he felt he was not officially in a position to boldly state his opinion.<br /><br />Joe is PSA's spokesman, not an official grader, PSA still gives the industry some credibility to the public masses. I am amazed that Mr. Connally did not do his homework, he seems intelligent, that really hurt his reputation more.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Larry,<br /><br />You make a good point. It would be incorrect for a grading company to publicly proclaim that the card isn't real unless they've actually seen it. If Orlando stated that the card was fake then why would the two guys even consider sending it to them for authentication? I'm not a Joe Orlando fan but considering the situation he did the right thing (IMO).

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Perhaps Fred is correct that Joe didn't want to discourage the guys from one day submitting the card, but seeing as this is extremely unlikely, this is not one of those cards that needs careful study to make a determination. On another post there was a T205 Tinker that I admit I would want to see in person before I made a final decision (if it's fake it is a very good one) but I am certain that Orlando long ago solved the mystery of this Wagner. If he did the corporate thing by being vague, so be it.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I guess I would not be one to be at the head of a big corporation. If I were Orlando I would have said "the damn thing is fake as a 3 dollar bill." I will never make it in politics......

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Nope, you'll never rise higher than the rank of moderator dude.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Barry, Political Correctness really sucks. The nice part of posting here is that people don't have to be that way. If given a choice to work at a corporate home office or in a satellitel office I'd chose the latter because I don't like the politics of a large corporate office. <br /><br />Leon, in our books you're number 1!!! You've risen to the pinnacle of where this hobby can take you... hahahahahahahaha... actually, I think most people would agree that you don't pull punches and that you (as well as most people here) don't have a problem calling something that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck... a turkey, like that Wagner card...