A Troubling Hobby Developement [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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08-10-2006, 09:23 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)It's just our society... everyone wants PERFECT things... many people will stoop pretty low to make sure they get those pretty perfect things... Lasers can be used to finely trim paper. Could you imagine using that technology to cut minute pieces of imperfections down to create the ultimate edges and corners for a card. It's like plastic surgery... does any guy here really abhor a nice altered rack? Sorry to use such a poor analogy but it kind of fits. As stated, what does it mean for the hobby? I hate to bring this up, yet again, but we need to look no further than the grading provided for the Harris Collection of T206 cards. Does anyone want to debate whether or not trimmed cards from that set were encapsulated? I'm not saying that it was knowingly done, nor am I saying it wasn't. Maybe, pretty soon people will cherish the beaters because they represent what is "real" about the hobby... could you imagine people cracking cards out of 8 holders so that they can trash them to have that "worn" look... ok, it's early and I should remove the bottles from my office before someone finds them and turns me in for taking an early lunch break...

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08-10-2006, 09:24 AM

Posted By: Seth B.Chad- you're right, and that's too bad, but that's why I collect cards in the VG and that's why they call it "Collector's Grade." I've taught myself enough to spot a fake, but maybe not enough to spot rolling, trimming, soaking, smoking, steaming, and dry-cleaning. And even if you are an expert, when most of the business is done on e-bay, there's no way you can tell everything in a scan of a card. So, I collect VG cards, cards I'll be happy to have when prices drop and I can buy even more VG cards!

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08-10-2006, 09:31 AM

Posted By: ChadI collect vg, too, but mostly that's a matter of affordabilty for me. I really do like things that look old, too. Steel toys look cooler than the plastic stuff I grew up with. Vintage refrigerators and toasters and fans look better to me than the new stuff. I'm not a person who thinks the past is always better than the present--quite the opposite, actually--but things seemed to be built with more care way back when. The lithography of vintage cards or the photographic cards of a lot of vintage Cuban sets knock the socks off the stuff produced now. But I'm veering from the topic of this thread, so I'll stop. --Chad

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08-10-2006, 09:42 AM

Posted By: RhysThis is EXACTLY why other hobbies have organized and have self policing aspects of the organization. Antique collectors societies exist for almost every other hobby in the world except Sports Collectibles. You pay a small due and have rights and responsibilities as a member. Dealers and collectors who engage in shady acts will loose their membership and the reasons for such can be known throughout the organization. Those without a membership are looked at with a crooked eye (dealers anyways) sort of like how people react to private auctions on ebay. It will not solve all the problems in the hobby, but it certainly would solve some of them. I think my fathers dues every year as a member of the TCA (Train collectors Association) were like $15 annually but for that cost you also got discounts for shows and a newsletter etc. My brother Rhett and I grew up around it so it seems natural, and in most other hobbies, it works pretty well. It probably will not happen in Sports Collectibles, but it should.

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08-10-2006, 09:46 AM

Posted By: barrysloateSomeone mentioned that many of these card altering shenanigans were taking place in the 1990's, and that was certainly true. The response was the advent of the grading services, which were formed not only to grade but to detect these alterations. Now it is coming to light with greater frequency that altered cards are getting encapsulated anyway. What's the defense to that? Do cards that were graded five years ago have to be resubmitted to be looked at with ever greater scrutiny? I don't know the answer, but it is a serious concern. With regard to Rhys's post, what can the network54 community do to help clean up parts of the hobby that need policing? We are a pretty powerful and educated group, and there must be something a large field of experts can do similar to what Rhys suggested.

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08-10-2006, 09:52 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethNone of this is news, is it? Isn't one of the reasons there was a market for PSA in the first place that altering cards had become rampant in the late 80s and early 90s? Surely since the first card PSA graded, there has been speculation, or maybe even proof, that cards that had been altered in ways generally deemed unacceptable were being graded by grading services. I think in answer to Barry's question, it's just an inevitable fact of life, and each of us who collects will have a different response, ranging from indifference to buying lower grade cards to refining choice of grading services to changing personal views on what sorts of alterations are acceptable, and so on. I don't think it's going to destroy vintage card collecting though; we are all too addicted, among other things.

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08-10-2006, 09:56 AM

Posted By: leonFirst of all great post, Barry. I think it was Barry Halper that tried to start a National Collectors Club (or something like that) back in the early 80's. Not sure if it ever got off the ground but the mention of a society for vintage baseball card collectors is not new. This post got me thinking about my collection so I stumbled over to it and see that my main collecting grade is in the SGC30-SGC50 area's, with only a few higher. Personally I like both high grade and mid grade (and a few lower) but my resources, and maybe in the long run "dumb luck" has me collecting "collector" grade. I think there is too much depth in the vintage card market for there to be a Black Monday of sorts. Too many collectors/investors to buy anything that looks like a good or great buy. I have to admit if the market totally crashed and my cards were worth nothing that it would hurt financially. I would still have the great little gems to enjoy though.....BTW, anyone that doesn't think a lot, if not most, very high end, 90-100 year old cards are untampered with, is a little bit naive...imo...best regards

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08-10-2006, 10:02 AM

Posted By: Corey R. ShanusSome of the problems can be addressed by simply having more knowledgable and experienced graders. The fact that the altered cards that Barry refers to ultimately came to light means that to at least some degree the problem is unqualified graders. I love Chad's suggestion that the role of the grading company should be merely to opine whether the card has been altered. Because in today's world there is no problem getting prospective buyers/bidders quality images of cards, there is arguably no need to assign a numerical grade in order to describe the card's condition. Another idea which I have espoused for some time is for a card to be assigned a grade with a margin of error attached to it, analogous to how political polling is done. I think we all recognize that there is a degree of subjectivity to grading; one person's 8 could easily be another person's 7. Suppose for example PSA went to half grades (e.g., a card could be slabbed as a 7.5) and recognized that there is a margin of error of +/- .5 to any grade. Under the system I am proposing, a 7.0 would be slabbed as a 6.5-7.5; a 7.5 would come back as a 7.0-8.0. The beauty of this method is that it recognizes that, due to the margin-of-error factor, some 7.0s are in fact better than some 7.5s and as good as some 8s. While I have no illusions that such a system will eliminate the incentive to alter cards, perhaps to some degree it will reduce the ridiculous difference in value between cards one grade apart and thereby reduce the degree of tampering.

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08-10-2006, 10:18 AM

Posted By: barrysloateCorey- interesting and sensible idea, but would it be embraced by the collecting public? People like precision, especially at the high end.

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08-10-2006, 10:42 AM

Posted By: barry arnoldvery insightful post Barry. like many of you i have found myself happier collecting in the vg range. i find that they have that cherished old look and feel and somehow removed most of my old perfectionism and earlier preoccupation with higher grades. I find myself absolutely enjoying them more and more. Granted, i have always been a collector and not an investor with the cards, so my highest grades were never more than 70 or 80 and those were rare. This has worked well for me. I'm not saying it should be universal. What has become most pleasing for me to see is the great collegiality and consequent top drawer scholarship which is taking place on this board as we continue to find ways to make this hobby as sound and exciting and ethical as possible even while barbarians try and tear it apart with their counterfeitings and the like. Alaric, a leader of the barbarians near the fall of Rome, was approached by one of the Roman soldiers who said proudly,even arrogantly, to Alaric that Alaric and his following had best run quickly for the Roman army was vast and extremely large. Alaric with head cocked slightly and eyes keenly glaring responds simply 'the more the wheat, the easier the scythe.' As a small and wise board, always in conversation and attuned to the signs of the times, we should continue to be safe from the scythe. best, barry

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08-10-2006, 10:43 AM

Posted By: steve f I like Chads' ideas... Although I cringe at the thought of resubmitting our graded cards, I would be pleased just knowing the things were "AUT" with a qualifier of Altered (if need be). Of course, for sellers, far more work would be needed in close-up scanning and answering condition inquiries.

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08-10-2006, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethI agree with Barry that Corey's idea, however sensible, will not catch on. Present grading systems are already deeply entrenched, especially with set registries etc., and if anything there may be a movement towards more false precision (.5s) than away from it. As for better graders, that would be great, but (assuming for argument's sake) some people here would be better than some of the present graders, how many of you are going to give up your day jobs to go grade cards all day? I am guessing the major grading services train their graders as well as they know how.

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08-10-2006, 10:47 AM

Posted By: cmokingLeon wrote: "BTW, anyone that doesn't think a lot, if not most, very high end, 90-100 year old cards are untampered with, is a little bit naive...imo...best regards" I do think a lot of high grade pre-WW1 cards are tampered with. However, I did not think it was most. I define most as "a good majority, greater than 70%". I'm not sure if Leon was thinking along those lines, but his statement did surprise me, maybe he is using a different definition. Does everyone think this also? Maybe I am a bit naive. That's why I'd like to hear what others have to say on percentages.

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08-10-2006, 10:50 AM

Posted By: ChadIf we took numerical grades off the cards, then, yeah, the seller would have to supply better scans, be more attentive to questions and make sure they kept their reputation in the highest regard. Of course, I think that should be happening already. I bring ebay up because, what I'd like to see them do as a way of establishing seller reputations, is show me only the feedback the seller has for the category I'm shopping in. I only want to know how buyers of baseball cards feel about a seller, not what buyers of the seller's bulk packaged swizzle sticks think. I know they won't, but it doesn't hurt to air this stuff out. Maybe somebody from Google is lurking around here. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> --Chad

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08-10-2006, 10:54 AM

Posted By: Jim ManosRegardsless if Leon meant 70% I think without question pressing, soaking etc.. to get that high grade card is being done to acheive the better grade ie... 7,8,amd 9's no question. Exception's to the rule's apply. But I strongly agree with 70% or more..I wouldn't take the risk, but someone knowing what there doing could cash in easy... My 2 cents.

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08-10-2006, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethIf "alterations" include soaking that many people find acceptable (without more), then I think the 70 percent for NM and better is very likely accurate.

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08-10-2006, 10:58 AM

Posted By: Griffin'sI don't think it's limited to high end cards. I've seen and heard of a lot of 1's and 2's getting cleaned up and becoming 4's and 5's (or 50's and 60's if you prefer). With the surge in prices the motivation is there, and the skills of those doing the altering have exceeded the ability of those doing to the grading to detect it.

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08-10-2006, 11:12 AM

Posted By: barrysloateChad- what you are suggesting is exactly how I conducted my business in the 1980's and 1990's. I was forced to grade my cards as accurately as possible because that was the only way I could keep my customers coming back. I'm sure I made some mistakes but I took alot of pride in learning how to be precise. Today, because all the cards I sell are graded by a third party service, I'm not embarrassed to admit I barely look at them and if they are misgraded or altered I probably wouldn't catch it. Since my word versus the grader's word is meaningless, I've lost interest in a skill I developed over the years. That's just a fact of life.

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08-10-2006, 11:13 AM

Posted By: leonMy assumption was only more often than not, for the altered high end cards, in holders. A 50.1% is all I was actually referring to although it is in fact probably higher. It would be very interesting to take 100 PSA 8 and PSA 9 T206's and give them to an impartial expert, like Derek Grady (though his roots were at SGC I am sure he could be unbiased today) and see how many he thinks are tampered with. My guess is over 50%. Go set registry !! ....for the record I am in the camp of thinking that says taking something off of a card that was not mfg'd there is not altering. It is debatable though....regards

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08-10-2006, 11:14 AM

Posted By: David DavisIt doesn't make sense to resubmit cards. If cards that have been altered are still getting through the cracks, what are the graders/authenticators going to do different for cards that have already been graded? Stick to buying raw cards and buying cards from someone that you know to be knowledgable and trustworthy. Anything else is gambling. For those that collect high grade cards, live with the knowledge that at some point your collection may be significantly less valued than now. At some point, there will be a technology developed that can tell if a card has been altered, be it through trimming, soaking, removal of writing, etc.

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08-10-2006, 11:21 AM

Posted By: ChadI recently sold cards on Ebay for the first time and I didn't even bother describing the graded stuff. The raw stuff I took pains to describe the cards flaws but it seemed pointless to point out that the SGC 40 I was selling was actually a hell of a lot nicer than the PSA 4 or that the PSA 3 presented better than the SGC 40. It's an unfortunate buy product of third party grading. I still think there can be a happy medium and I still think that we haven't gotten there yet. --Chad

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08-10-2006, 11:28 AM

Posted By: warshawlawand one we've had before. What we have right now is merely a perfect storm of old issues coming up coincidentally at the same time. The fake Wagner is ubiquitous to our hobby. What I find reassuring about that situation is that no one with any real qualifications or experience is participating. Absent the level of expertise and shared knowledge out there, I shudder to think of what might be happening. As for the altered slabs, I don't know enough about the specifics to comment, so I won't, other than to say that we all know of WIWAG and it is quite likely that there are slabs floating around out there that have been tampered with. Buy the card, not the slab. Turning to the more general issue of high grade cards and slabs, I am not surprised to hear rumblings to the effect that more and more folks are rejecting top tier slabbed cards as altered. The money is too great for it not to attract a sophisticated crimimal element. I collect mid-grade and low grade stuff due to affordability and often lack of higher grade materials. I do think, as I've said in the past, that we need to move closer to the art model w/r/t legitimate conservation of cards. Cleaning and removal of foreigh substances, properly performed, simply is not a sore spot for me given what is accepted practice in the art world. Finally, on the sky-is-falling market woes, not quite. I see prices on cards continuing to surge forward, the economy is decent as it affects folks like us (upper middle class and wealthy) who comprise the majority of those who continue to collect vintage cards, and there are many, many folks out there who would jump on vintage materials if there was a modest correction in the price structure. I'd be far more worried about the real estate market taking a dump than about N172s falling through the floor.

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08-10-2006, 12:02 PM

Posted By: FYS"Someone mentioned that many of these card altering shenanigans were taking place in the 1990's, and that was certainly true. The response was the advent of the grading services, which were formed not only to grade but to detect these alterations. Now it is coming to light with greater frequency that altered cards are getting encapsulated anyway. What's the defense to that? Do cards that were graded five years ago have to be resubmitted to be looked at with ever greater scrutiny? I don't know the answer, but it is a serious concern. With regard to Rhys's post, what can the network54 community do to help clean up parts of the hobby that need policing? We are a pretty powerful and educated group, and there must be something a large field of experts can do similar to what Rhys suggested." - Barry Sloate Barry, You want reform Barry, you are actually one of the few people that could help push the effort. I have known for some time that the Wagner is trimmed. As many know, there is an East Coast Collector with before and after pictures. Bill and Barry also mentioned first hand knowledge of the trimming. Bill also mentioned that McNeil was aware the card was trimmed and insenuaded that Dave Hall is aware. There are obviously other (likely Mastro + others) with first hand knowledge of the trimming. In any case, the hobby icon is altered. Until this is publically disclosed and reform is taken, then fraud and deception will certainly continue. I have felt for some time that it was acceptable to allow the trimmed icon to remain a lie with the general public for the good of the hobby. I no longer feel that is appropriate. I personally have absolutely no hobby clout, so someone like yourself would have to write an article detailing the true history of the Wagner. You talk about reform, but are you really prepared to stand up for it? Final question, do you still submit to PSA knowing first hand that they knowingly have a trimmed Wagner and present it as the icon of the hobby?

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08-10-2006, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensTo most of us this should come as no surprise, we have continually posted graded cards that are questionable. I don't think the sky is falling it just seems that better education would suite buyers. What I think is great is that someone actually bought the cards and on the holders. As far as people not submitting to PSA because they have graded a trimmed Wagner, that will not happen as long as people are blindly paying the high prices for PSA cards. I personally have never and will never submit to PSA because of their past history.

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08-10-2006, 01:06 PM

Posted By: edacramaybe in the future we'll value cards by their character instead of how sterile they are. if someone wants a vintage card that looks like it just came out of a pack, why not just buy a reprint?

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08-10-2006, 01:11 PM

Posted By: ddI prefer paper(or cardboard) to plastic.

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08-10-2006, 01:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloateTo FYS: Yes, I have heard for years that the T206 Wagner graded PSA-8 has been trimmed. However, I have never had the opportunity to see the before and after pictures firsthand. Therefore, it is inappropriate for me to be the one to come forward. For those few who have seen them, they are free to respond if they are willing to deal with the controversy. As far as submitting cards myself, I have sent a few to PSA but for the most part I use SGC. I feel they are the most accurate of the big three.

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08-10-2006, 02:43 PM

Posted By: FYSBarry, I think you know the first hand parties involved with the Wagner trimming and maybe you could contribute/spearhead the complete truth in an article in Old Cardboard. You could be the pioneer in changing the face or reforming the grading industry.

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08-10-2006, 02:57 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI've gotten in enough trouble over the years. I think I will defer and leave that story for someone else.

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08-10-2006, 03:01 PM

Posted By: FYS"I've gotten in enough trouble over the years. I think I will defer and leave that story for someone else." - Barry Sloate Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure.

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08-10-2006, 03:13 PM

Posted By: John_B_CaliforniaI know this topic has come up many times before, but I have to play devil's advocate when it comes to the amount of trimmed, altered or otherwise "bad" pre WWII PSA graded cards. I'm looking at the PSA population numbers right now for T206. There's been 62,000 cards graded to date. There's only 252 PSA 9's. There's been 13 10's. That's less than 1/2 of 1% of all cards submitted. If altered and trimmed cards are so prevalent, why are they so rare? For the T205 set, there's been 14,273 cards submitted for grading. There's 175 8's, 4 9's, and no 10's. For T204 Ramly, there's virtually nothing in high grade. If I knew nothing about cards, those numbers look pretty normal in terms of distribution. I can imagine 14,000 extremely delicate T205's in circulation; the bulk will be low grades, and they'll get rarer and rarer as the grades up. It's just the law of averages. The numbers are skewed because of breakouts and re-submissions. Even if the real number is 8,000 or 10,000, I still don't see it. I agree there's a very strong incentive for some people to alter cards given the strength of the market. And obviously the pop numbers are imperfect. But I wonder, if it's so easy to alter these cards, why aren't there more of them? The Set Registry has created huge demand for low pop commons. In the '33 Goudey set, low pop commons can reach $10,000-$15,000. The pop numbers have barely moved for some of the rarest cards as prices have exploded. Again, why aren't more 7's being created into 8's? It's inevitable that some graded cards are altered. But over 50%? That's a strong allegation. I don't see it in the numbers at all. Alot of very desirable pre WWI cards have not been graded in high grades. A mint T205 Cobb would be a holy grail, but it doesn't exist. Alot of HOF'ers in T206 have never gotten a Mint 9. Some cards have always been rare (T206 Green Cobb). There's tremendous demand for PSA 8 T206's. People would die for a straight NM-MT set. But some cards don't even exist in an 8. Some show only 1 or 2 copies in NM 7. Statistically, what numbers jump out as an anomaly? John

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08-10-2006, 03:17 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Barry, you're our silent heretic for the vintage baseball collecting religion... I wouldn't do it unless I had irrefutable corroborating evidence. Even if I did have this evidence I'm not sure I'd like to be the one to "drop a dime" on some of the people that might be involved. This has been discussed a few times and still NOBODY has done a thing about it. Where do you start? 60 Minutes or some other news show that might want to pick up the story? It'd be an interesting story but I'd hate for my wife to hear about it because she'd say something like... "hey, just how much do you spend on that stuff?" I don't think I want her to come to the realization that we eat cat food because I like card board.

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08-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThe thread was about a general trend in the hobby, and observations made by collectors who handle high grade cards on a regualr basis (which I don't). It was not meant to single out a particular card. And to repeat, without concrete evidence it would be a story based on hearsay. Yes, I have my personal doubts about the card, but that is not sufficient and wouldn't hold up well in an article.

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08-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Posted By: ScottIngold Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure, Interesting statement.... As someone in the hobby who does try to buy the best i can afford. I would certainly like to hear how this could possibly happen with the knowledge of some of the leaders in our hobby. I mean the gist of what Frank and Barry are saying is that PSA and others know for a fact that the 8 Wagner is trimmed. Please correct me if i have misunderstood.

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08-10-2006, 03:24 PM

Posted By: joe brennanWhere do you start? I don't think you start here on an open forum. I think the words proof and lawsuits come into play dealing with a card of this magnitude. I would be very suprised if anyone would pony up the proof facing lawsuits from the hugh corporations that would be involved if this matter was discussed much further. JMO People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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08-10-2006, 03:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI have no idea how PSA feels about the matter, but I am sure if we've heard the stories about it they have too.

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08-10-2006, 03:27 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Run Forrest, Run...

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08-10-2006, 03:32 PM

Posted By: warshawlawJohn B. California: That there are relatively few 9-10 T206s in terms of overall percentages does not disprove concerns about altered higher grade cards. First of all, you did not count 7s and 8s. Anything over ex-mt from that era commands big registry bucks and is nice enough looking to be considered for alterations, especially hairline crease removals and stain removals. Add in the 7s and 8s and where are we? Second, you can pull any single set out of the air as an example but accumulate that over all prewar sets of all cards over ex-mt and there is quite a hefty number.

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08-10-2006, 03:32 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliHere's a question I've asked in the past, but never really understood the answer to. As I understand it, the T206 issue and the T213 (at least T213-1 and 2) issues are printed on similar stock, at a similar time in history. If you review the pop reports, here's what you'll see: GRADE T213 T206 1-2 62% of total 13% of total 3-4 34% of total 44% of total 5 3% of total 20% of total 6 .3% of total 9% of total 7 none graded 5% of total 8 .1% of total 2% of total 9 none graded .3% of total 10 none graded .01% of total Some may say this post belongs in this thread, others may say it doesn't. I'm unsure. But it would be great if someone could offer me a strong explanation as to why it is that you have two strikingly similar issues - one happens to be the most popular pre-war set, and one is not - and a radically different percentage breakdown in the grades for each, with the higher grades more prevalent in the most popular set. Any ideas? -Al

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08-10-2006, 03:49 PM

Posted By: Eric BBased on those numbers, it looks like about 40% of T206's have been altered to give a higher grade. Similar to what other poster have been saying based on gut feelings without collaborative evidence.

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08-10-2006, 04:02 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThe suggestion that somehow it is Barry's responsibility to expose the T206 Wagner, and that he is letting down the hobby by not doing so, is ludicrous. At the same time, I think people who assert as a fact that a card of that stature is trimmed (not saying it isn't, I have no idea, only know the rumors) should not only provide their supporting evidence but should put their real name on the post. EDITED TO ADD Statements along the lines of X said Y was aware and insinuated that Z was also aware are not terribly persuasive either.

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08-10-2006, 04:05 PM

Posted By: Joe ToccoI'm not familiar enough with the two issues say if it's viable, but the discrepancies in the population of T206 vs. T213 could be partially explained by submission bias. If a common T206 PSA 1 sells for $25 and a common T213 PSA 1 sells for $100, you'll see a higher percentage of all T213's submitted than T206's. Basically what I'm saying is, the pop reports are not necessarily indicative of the spectrum of grades existant in each respective set. Other partial explanations include "finds," factory back-door sets (like the $800k Cracker Jack set), and storage bias (if T213s were traditionally thought to be junk, they may not have been protected as well as T206's). Also, resubmissions could be a factor. If the difference in price between a 1 and a 2 is $50, you won't see many 1's get resubmitted. But you'll see a lot of 5's get resubmitted in hopes of a $1000 value gain if it gets slabbed a 6. I have no doubt that resubmissions are more prevalent in more popular sets. Of course, there are some alterations out there too <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. Joe

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08-10-2006, 04:13 PM

Posted By: FYS"The suggestion that somehow it is Barry's responsibility to expose the T206 Wagner, and that he is letting down the hobby by not doing so, is ludicrous. At the same time, I think people who assert as a fact that a card of that stature is trimmed (not saying it isn't, I have no idea, only know the rumors) should not only provide their supporting evidence but should put their real name on the post." Barry started the thread, I just thought if he was truly concerned, he is a visable enough person that would garner enough respect to write such an article. I in no way said it was Barry's resonsibility or a dissapointment to the hobby if he did not do such a thing personally. It is ludicrous to think that I did. I am a nobody, but I can tell you that Bill Heitman stated on these very boards that the Wagner was trimmed. Leon has stated on these boards that he is 99% sure the card is trimmed based on input he has received personally. I have also received input from well known and respected people that are 100% sure that the card is trimmed. My name is in my e-mail address, which is attached to all of my posts.

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08-10-2006, 04:13 PM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliJoe, I tend to agree with you in part, and wouldn't imply that a large percentage of altered cards are slipping past the grading services. I think SGC and PSA do a great job weeding out a lot of the "chop shop" type of alterations that happen out there. More sophisticated restoration work done by a professional may be more difficult to detect - I don't know, I'm not a grader - but I'd find it hard to believe that there's a professional restorer out there, working on EX-MT Gabby Street cards. You're also correct in that any night of the week, there are dozens upon dozens of low-grade raw T206s on eBay. Many of those types of cards have never made it into slabs, and likely won't, because most are relatively plentiful and the value is such that grading fees are unnecessary. Also important is the definition of "alteration", which is something that's been discussed here many times. Soaking gunk off the back of a card, to many, is not considered an alteration. Same goes with removing stuff that wasn't on the card in the first place (i.e. pencil marks). So perhaps due to the popularity of T206 in general, people are more likely to soak residue off the back of a card and get a 4, rather than a 1, to realize a higher selling price. Who knows? I just find it interesting. -Al

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08-10-2006, 04:28 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethFYS, I read your statements "Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure" at least as a criticism of Barry, and together with your statement "You could be the pioneer in changing the face or reforming the grading industry," as at least an implicit suggestion that he had some moral responsibility to do so. If I misread you then I am sorry for having done so. As for the card itself, these rumors have been around forever in one form or another, and I just don't think it's wise or productive to state opinions based on other people's opinions or based on hearsay.

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08-10-2006, 04:46 PM

Posted By: John“I think it was Barry Halper that tried to start a National Collectors Club (or something like that) back in the early 80's. Not sure if it ever got off the ground but the mention of a society for vintage baseball card collectors is not new.” Leon I love the idea, we could be the baseball card collector equivalent of the Super Friends. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/large/445.jpg"> The only question is what are everyone’s special powers? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> Does this also mean that Jay is our arch enemy/evil nemesis? If so he will need a name and lair agreed? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/77.gif">

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08-10-2006, 04:50 PM

Posted By: edacra There was a very well known autograph dealer in the late 80's who used to get prime spots at national shows who got in trouble with the law from selling autopen signatures. While the incident got a huge amount of press, the thing that stood out for me at the time was how many dealers admitted they knew the material was fake, and turned the other cheek. By that point, a large number of dealers handling autographs were carrying these fake signatures - and continued to sell them. I can remember feeling a huge amount of resentment towards the people who knew and didn't blow the whistle sooner. It's a matter of integrity, and I think it's the responsibility of anyone who makes a living through sports cards.

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08-10-2006, 04:55 PM

Posted By: John_B_CaliforniaI agree with Joe, that there are probably some biases that explain the different numbers. I've seen far more ungraded T206's at shows and on ebay than T213. There's little incentive to get low graded, low dollar cards slabbed (i.e. 1's, 2's or those with writing). The population skews to the middle for a popular set like T206. There's also been notable T206 finds (southern find), plus the 7's, 8's and 9's are more likely to be cracked and resubmitted, thus artifically inflating their numbers. There's enough holes in some of these early sets to make me question how widespread fraud really is. I remember in the 90's when I subscribed to SCD, there was always an ad in the back looking for high grade T204's (I forget the dealers name off hand). And now to look at the pop report 10-12 years later, and see that there's hardly anything above a 6, it makes me doubt this image I have in my mind of these shady guys trimming and altering cards in the wee hours of the night and then sending them to Newport Beach and fleecing the public. You can't even build that set in a 6. Interesting discussion guys. John

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08-10-2006, 04:56 PM

Posted By: Gilbert Maines“Recently, i was the high bidder on a couple of pre-war graded lots, from a relatively well known auction house ….. both items have been tampered with. What i am suspicious of, is holders being broken open, and cards being switched ……. (~$450) changed hands I spoke with the auction house today, and they didn't seem terribly interested in fixing things. They stated that there was no refund on graded cards” In my opinion, as confidence in the legitimacy of the hobby’s product erodes, collectors will seek out more secure avenues for fun and investment. Brian’s observation is not directed to highly graded rare cards, by any means. Cards in the $200-300 range cross our table more frequently than they formerly did. And further, my thinking is that a seller who does not stand behind the legitimacy of what he sells, has just committed professional suicide. But this is not acceptable to me. I prefer to continue to collect baseball cards. And I know that the longevity of this hobby is predicated on this hobby’s ability to attract new collectors. EBay is a mine field for persons without significant experience. Auction houses do not accept returns on misadvertised phony graded cards? Who would play roulette if the wheel was rigged? We need the card cops. This is getting out of hand. Or maybe I am overreacting. Yes, that must be it. Why should I think that I have a right to get what I pay for?

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08-10-2006, 04:57 PM

Posted By: JimBI tend to agree with John B. California. While I am sure some altered cards have slipped through, to say or imply that most high-grade old cards in PSA or SGC holders are altered is, in my opinion, a reckless, unsubstantiated generalization that does the hobby no good. And it is not true that they were not around before. I recently picked up a load of old Trader Speaks from the '70's and early '80's. I have been drooling at the prices of old T and E cards listed as NM or Mint. They were there then. JimB

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08-10-2006, 05:03 PM

Posted By: JimBAnd I think it is obvious that higher-grade T and E cards are submitted at a greater rate than low grade ones for obvious reasons. In other words, I think a much larger percentage of the T206 red portrait Cobbs in NM or better have been submitted than the percentage of those in lower grades. This also skews the numbers, though high grade cards from that era still make up an incredibly low percentage of graded cards from the era - even though they are submitted at a relatively much higher rate. JimB

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08-10-2006, 05:06 PM

Posted By: barrysloateFYS- and I wish I knew your name- I've long suspected that the PSA-8 Wagner is not what it appears to be, but to write an article you need to have something to say and a point of view. My opinion could be expressed in a single sentence, and then where do I go from there? I also can't say "a friend of a friend saw the pictures" when I in fact didn't. That's hearsay, not evidence. It would end up being a poor article. And as I said, I have no ax to grind. The owner will probably keep it for many years, and I know he is proud of it. He also does good things, taking it to schools and sharing it with fellow collectors. Why ruffle feathers under those circumstances? Now Leon and Mr. Mint posing as the Ambiguously Gay duo-there's a story with some meat to it.

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08-10-2006, 05:09 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJust to respond to Jim B's last statement- all those NR MT cards you saw in the Trader Speaks would likely only grade EX or EX-MT today, so that may not be your proof.

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08-10-2006, 05:29 PM

Posted By: leonFor the record I personally have NO first hand experience that the PSA8 Wagner is trimmed. I have been told by at least 5 folks, whom I greatly respect, that have said they have first hand knowledge (seen pics) that the card is not good. I am not positive as it's hearsay...but from trusted sources. Those sources have remained silent publicly. Bill Heitmann did come on here and give a first hand account of his take on it. John- I guess I look pretty good in blue...but don't think I could ever be as big of a personality as Mr.Mint. Concerning remaining anonymous on the board I would caution folks about the rules......so far so good.... As for trimmed high end cards in holders....maybe 50% is too much but the fact remains that I do believe there are a lot of them that have been altered....that's still my opinion based on everything I know....regards

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08-10-2006, 05:50 PM

Posted By: Patrick McHughMy take on this. I agree with Jim and John. Yes there may be altered cards in holders but over 50 percent no way. From what i have seen there are alot of OVERGRADED cards in 8, 9, 10 holders . The population reports do not lie. My guess using t206 as an example is that cards in 7-10 holders have each been submitted 3 or more times to get the bump. Which would make the total of t206 7-10 cards one third of what you see. Also the t204 example is a very good one. I feel overgraded cards lead people to buy the holder and not the card.

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08-10-2006, 06:20 PM

Posted By: AndyDo the major grading companies have any internal quality control systems in place to test their graders abilities? For example, many companies will hire internet security firms to actually try to break through their security and access their systems. Thereby learning where the holes are and what they need to do to tighten up their security. Would those of you who deal with graded cards feel more comfortable if the grading companies were to hire some people to create very convincing fakes to be submitted to test their own people's ability to spot them? If the cards were graded and slabbed, then they could be pulled and used as examples to further educate the graders. What about hiring people to alter some cards for the same testing? Just a thought I had. Please let me know if I'm crazy this afternoon. Thanks.

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08-10-2006, 06:25 PM

Posted By: Rick (calleocho)A good idea would be to look at more mature hobbies and how they have dealt with similar problems. Coins would be a good start I also think increasing the fees for grading dramatically could help ...dont know how popular that would be. However ..the hobby will evolve ...some in it wont ..but thats life Im not that pessimistic about it though...most collectors are quite passionatte and do try to learn more everyday about the hobby, the cards etc. I also see collectors pay more for eye appeal than technical grades and most collectors also realize that a slab while helpful its not the ultimate judge of a card's authenticity or quality.

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08-10-2006, 06:45 PM

Posted By: FYSBarry, FYS = Mike Uhl. If you click on the FYS name in my posts, it will automatically open an e-mail window to mikeuhl@comast.net. As a 26 year long collector, it does sadden me that many with first hand knowledge of the Wagner situation turn a blind eye. No, I am not talking about Barry. I think educra made a good point that as an individual or collector, there can be some resentment when some of the people that are admired (hero's if you will) in the hobby seem to do nothing. That is easy to say when you are on the outside of the equation. I am sure it would not be much fun to be the person that comes forth. The only publication that could pull off an investigative article, which cooperation from first hand observers, would be Old Cardboard, in my opinion. Tuff Stuff and SCD would not touch it due to lost advertising revenues. SGC and Beckett would not touch it due to the hypercompetitive onslaught that would take place afterwards. In any case, I would like to see the truth published. I think it will force improved buyback programs, consistency, examination procedures and introduce some additional technology to the field of grading. It could also potentially begin the end or come clean to a chapter of the more shady side of the hobby. Just at this years National, I was able examine a slabbed A&G NM/MT card that under 100X magnification, glue beads could be seen from the rebacking of the card. Higher magnification is just one additional technology that could become more common place, if some public event warranted this sort of additional help.

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08-10-2006, 07:07 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesI wouldnt have guessed !

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08-10-2006, 07:22 PM

Posted By: jay behrensIf I am going to be the arch-villians, I want an evil platypus as my sidekick. Bhys is correct, it's time this hobby followed the lead of al other collectibles fields and start a national organization to police itself. I am sure more than a few board members would be willing to be part of a board to run the organization. I know I would, and I would be kick ass and taking names. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-10-2006, 10:26 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasThis is a much-needed post but I think that it has gotten too negative. The stock market analogy was made earlier and since I ran a Hedge Fund for many years, I will try to contest, the draconian parallel. In my opinion, the entire universe of sports cards is extremely self-correcting and not in need of a federal reserve to influence speculation and the lack thereof. I think all of us who ever bought a card produced after 1980 know what I am talking about. With regard to the high-grade or PSA 9 market, these cards have been in decline for a while now. Most post-war PSA 9 non-rookie cards are falling precipitously. Some will point to low-pop commons as an inflated market and there I agree with them but in many cases, those prices are a function of one or two individuals dueling it out. Back to the stock market analogy and March 2000, many people bought blind into stock analyst's strong buy recommendations and were decimated but those who did their own research were able to avoid the Info space’s. I think the same due diligence is prudent in this business. When a collector forks out large amounts of money for a piece of cardboard, homework is necessary. What is homework? Its all been said before, following realized prices, buying the card not the holder, avoiding low pop high-grade cards that are more susceptible to volatility. Many board members have gone to the low to mid grade to hedge against buying significantly altered cards, which might be the reason many of the 2-5 HOF pre-war market is so red-hot, and the aforementioned post-war 9 market is dying. Which proves the point that, as is the case with the stock market, money does not leave but rather if rotates from sector to sector or sports card issue. With regard to the % of trimmed slabbed cards, I have had many cards that are fresh from a one-owner collection that will never grade with PSA. These are beautiful mint condition cards that are of all sizes that have provenance. Sometimes its the "kiss of death" to have a mint condition card because the automatic assumption is that it is trimmed. I would much rather have cards that have wear on them consistent to handling opposed to un-circulated ones. Just as individual stock investors now have accounts at Schwab or Ameritrade, baseball card investors must research the cards they buy and use the slab only to limit downside. Once a card is in a holder the owner is much better off because their will be a buyer of a graded card at % of SMR. Therefore, graded baseball cards are not going away and are not all soiled cardboard but rather a stop loss. A little non sequitur but hopefully it lightens the mood a tad. Charlie

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08-10-2006, 10:26 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldIf folks would collect cards, instead of slabs, then people wouldn't be so inclined to trim, soak, wash, stretch, bleach, and otherwise tamper with the cards. Seriously, the love and desire of the slabs and the numbers, "9" or "80", that is what prompts the cheats to tamper with the cards. Knowing what you're buying helps avoid this mess. If you hold an E145-1 and an E145-2 (1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack cards) in your hand, then you can better understand the card. Same for a T206. I vividly remember holding a Wagner. Not a slab, a card. And I am certain if you guys above held this "new Wagner" you could instantly tell, just by feel, that it was doctored. So I think you guys are stuck with the tampered cards as long as you collect slabs. Honesty, isn't tampering and bleaching and all more prevelant nowadays, now that we have slabbing?

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08-10-2006, 11:36 PM

Posted By: JimBFrank, I respectfully disagree with your statement, "If folks would collect cards, instead of slabs, then people wouldn't be so inclined to trim, soak, wash, stretch, bleach, and otherwise tamper with the cards." I think it is precisely because this was so prevalent that the graded card industry took off. It gave people confidence that these things were not happening to the cards they were buying. JimB

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08-10-2006, 11:46 PM

Posted By: ramram....collectors will realize that beauty lies in the content and quality of the image and not in the condition of the mount.

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08-11-2006, 12:37 AM

Posted By: Anonymous. . .

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08-11-2006, 01:10 AM

Posted By: nbbrazil"....collectors will realize that beauty lies in the content and quality of the image and not in the condition of the mount. " that someday will come when our society refuses to idolize movie stars and pay more attention to teachers. Very interesting discussion. As someone mentioned above, grading was created in response to the increased presence of counterfeit/overpriced/altered cards in a booming market (mainly popular pre and post war cards and popular modern cards (mcgwire, jordan, gretzky)). In an ideal sense, grading eliminates the scum of this hobby by putting dealers and buyers on the same level. Buyers know the condition and authenticity of the cards they purchase. Dealers, previously driven by the need to accumulate profit to meet overhead AND take a tidy sum home, will need to jump on the grading bandwagon in order to survive in this internet auction world. Prices of cards will trend toward the basics of supply and demand...and not on the whim of beckett, SCD or dealers at shows. Therefore, previously overgraded and unauthentic cards will no longer be their tools of profit and novice collectors will no longer be their prey. But, unfortunately, two aspects make the grading market not as perfect as one would think it to be. 1.) Grading is subjective. On the whole, i think grading from the big 3 are consistent. But, on the whole is not 100%...or even 95%. Weve seen numerous examples of overgraded and undergraded cards from all companies. This, of course, forces the buyer to "purchase the card, not the slab." But, by doing this, we defeat the basic purpose of grading....confidence in the condition and authenticity of the card. When i buy a PSA 3, it better damn well be a PSA 3!! But, as weve seen, that's not always the case. Someone above mentioned a 0.5 grading system to measure the margin of error in grading. Well, i doubt that will happen because as mentioned above the current system that is in place is already established and entrenched in the minds of collectors. Additionally, the margin of error you see in such things as surveys and political polls are statistical by nature. The margin of error is a function of the variability associated with the sampling design. In grading, margin of error is based on what??....the subjectivity of the grader and nothing else. That impreciseness is not something you can quantify. 2.) Alteration has become more sophisticated. Soaking, fine precision trimming, etc have likely become more prevalant in our hobby today. This has been the pre grading countefeiters' response to grading. The counterfeiter thinks "Ok, so these companies are going to ensure the condition and authenticity of cards. Well, i'll just one up them and advance the tools of my trade." Additionally, you have such things as slab swapping, WIWAG, tampering and other terms that define the increased focus on trying to get cards in higher conditioned slabs. I fully believe that our hobby will not be going to hell in a handbasket. I support grading in its idealogical sense. But, since grading is tied to human subjectivity..it will have its flaws. That's why a place like this...an open forum where collectors from all around the world can get advice...is very important.

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08-11-2006, 05:07 AM

Posted By: Martin NealAlthough I am sure that many high grade t206s are altered, I disagree that the percentage is very high. The "southern find" in 1989 provided over 1000 high grade t206s to the population report. Of couse there is no way of knowing how many of these found their way to the Psa's population report, but if they were all graded by Psa, they would represent nearly 20 percent of all cards graded Psa 7 or higher. I have several of the cards from that find (graded 8) and I have heard that many graded 9. I don't profess to know the details of this find, but if anyone knows Marco who I think runs the Chantilly show, he would be able to elaborate on this subject. He was one of the 4 pricipals who originally purchased this group. Ted, you may know him personally and ask him to visit the board and explain his take on high grade t206s. Statistically, of the million plus of t206s that have survived, the number of cards in the psa 8 or 9 range looks reasonable. Personally, I would love to hear the true story of this find and it keeps me hoping that another one will surface in the future.

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08-11-2006, 07:20 AM

Posted By: andy beckerhi everyone, i agree there are altered cards that are in slabs. no question. however, when leon (hey leon) says 50% of high grade cards 100ish years old are altered, i have to ask.....then when does the age of a high grade card become a non-issue? -are most high grade diamond stars altered? -are most high grade 1952 topps altered? -are most high grade 1962 topps altered? -1972? -1982? -1992? -2002? when does it become acceptable that a high grade example could have survived? and if it's possible for there to be surviving high grade 2002 issue, why must we think that all high grade 1912 issues are altered? some yes, for sure, but a high percentage like 50....no way. i would also add that there are plenty of low and midgrade cards that are altered, some reside in slabs and some do not. but altering cards is not exclusively a high grade phenomenon.

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08-11-2006, 07:46 AM

Posted By: leonMy guess of 50.1% of high grades in slabs as being altered might be high, as I have already recanted elsewhere. I do find it interesting that many of the folks that say "it ain't so" have high grade cards in slabs. Kind of like protecting PSA when you have a large investment in their slabs? Regardless, if it's only 10% (and I will always think that that percentage is low, based on what I have been told and seen) it's still too many. Heck, we can't even get past the first card graded by the almighty PSA. But maybe I am just out to get that big bad slabbing company. Maybe there's no issue at all and PSA has very experienced graders....and about Santa.....

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08-11-2006, 08:05 AM

Posted By: JayFirst, I am not talking my position. I have virtually no pre-1920 cards in slabs. However, I think even 10% is way too high. When you say that cards in pristine condition can't survive that long how about the '14 Cracker Jacks that fan favorite SGC graded. Your opinion should be based on more than horror stories that SGC tells about PSA or PSA about SGC or claims by hobby veterans who, before the advent of grading companies, called EX cards NrMT on a regular basis. I agree with the posts that say if you guys really believe there is a problem then do something about it. However, I can say with some certainty that this will not happen because those who tend to complain the loudest on this board tend to be those who do the least. To quote an old chestnut: "After all is said and done there is alot more said than done".

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08-11-2006, 08:08 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI don't think it's important whether it's 2% or 42%. Once it is established that altered cards make it into slabs, every card is a potential problem. How do you have confidence when you are buying if there is a seed of doubt that it might be altered?

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08-11-2006, 08:26 AM

Posted By: John SI have no idea what percentage of cards that reside in holders have been altered. The fact remains that some have. And I also agree with the counterpoint that more cards are available than fifteen years due the increased visibility of the hobby, internet, etc. However that does not explain the relative level of high-end material that seems to be continuously available. The hobby has changed into more of a business. Some people will "cut corners" to make money if the opportunity arises. A number of people want proof for the accusations that cards are being altered and finding their way into slabs. Use your eyes and experience...what further proof do you need? I believe that Gil stated that one of the negative consequences of grading is the dumbing down of the hobby, collectors relying on the third-party system for peace of mind rather than their own experience. I couldn't agree more.

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08-11-2006, 08:45 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasWhy does grading have to be absolutely 100% accurate in order to serve a purpose? 2% or %50? Anybody who can claim 2% inaccuracy in any endavor in life should be immortalized. How many doctors have made the wrong diganois? Do we stop going to Doctors when they breach a certain % of malpractice? Grading baseball cards is an opinion. One in which the same person could look at the same card days removed and come up with a diffrent grade. Charlie

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08-11-2006, 09:00 AM

Posted By: John SCharlie, I agree completely if it is an honest error.

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08-11-2006, 09:26 AM

Posted By: jay behrensA doctor is bad anology. Medicine is NOT an exact science. Grading isn't either, but each company has established guidelines for grades and when they cannot obviously sollow those guidelines, there is a serious problem. How many times have seen cards with high grades that did not meet the minimum centering standas, or a card with a chunk missing from it (the PSA3 CJ Wagner comes to mind)? There are mistakes made that there is no excuse for and can be easily corrected, but PSA REFUSES to admit to mistake, no matter how big or small. I don't think they ever did admit to losing the Magie card even though they lost the laawsuit. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-11-2006, 09:37 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)"A doctor is bad anology. Medicine is NOT an exact science." Jay, I think you kind of hit it on the head there (in a round about way). Grading cards is NOT an exact science either. Professional graders should have licences and they "practice" their craft at the grading company facilites. If you think about it, they're still practicing, trying to get it right...

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08-11-2006, 09:56 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasThe Doctor analogy is the correct one. We pay Doctors to render an opinion on our health or lack thereof. Many mistakes are made. Medicine may not be an exact science but nor is grading. There are exceptions to both but we are not going to render opinons based on the aberrations? I remember reading about a person who went in for surgery and left with a scalple left in his body cavity. Many mistakes are made in both professions because their anacdotes are made by human beings who are not inflable. Intent is another issue, some would argue that Doctors and drug companies are incentivsed to keep us sick in order to make money? Much like card grading, grading companies have an incentive to make some mistakes to foster reviews and re-grading. Charlie

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08-11-2006, 09:58 AM

Posted By: andy becker....and i hear what you are saying leon about the group defending high grade slabs.....but the group knocking them is comprised of low to mid grade collectors. so what does that mean? i just don't think a blanket statement can be made regarding % of altered cards in slabs. i think each card, raw or third party graded, should be evaluated on an individual basis. i have another question.... if card "doctors" can alter cards and fool graders, why aren't the population reports of 7's,8's, and 9's exploding? or are they?

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08-11-2006, 10:13 AM

Posted By: jay behrensThe reason it is not exploding is that you need the right card. You can't just take any card and turn it into an 8 or 9. As was mentioned here or in another thread, there is a big demand for 6s and 7s because these cards have many of the characteristics needed to be able to doctor a card. Even after the doctoring is done, there is no gaurentee that work came out undetectable. another question might be, how many vintage cards have been destroyed in the creatation and the attempt to create a higher grade card. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-11-2006, 10:27 AM

Posted By: leonThe answer to your question about why are there not more high grade cards due to the doctoring could be as simple as maybe everyone is not crooked? I am not going to argue the fact of what I have been saying (anymore) and I do agree we probably shouldn't talk in percentages (the more I think about it). Everyone needs to believe what they want to. I have my beliefs based on all of the information I have...... They could certainly change in the future, with new info. BTW, one other tidbit.....I read in a post yesterday that someone was talking about T213's. What a shame. I don't think that person has ever handled a type one as they didn't know the way they are. For all of you slabheads out there that have never touched our gems the T213 type ones are on paper-like stock, not normal card stock. That could be the biggest travesty about slabs, the fact you can't touch the cards and get to know them......best regards

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08-11-2006, 10:33 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliLeon: It was me talking about the T213s. I thought it was the type 3 that was printed on the lighter stock, but the type 1 and 2 were printed on heavier stock, similar to T206. Am I incorrect in that? I only have a type 2 - looks, feels and smells just like a T206 to me, with more slickness on the front. -Al EDITED: Huh - I just found some info about this, and it appears I've been incorrect about the Type 1s. Learn something new every day. Not sure this is an issue of me being a "slabhead", though, as I simply don't own any cards of this type yet.

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08-11-2006, 10:54 AM

Posted By: leonIt wasn't personal it was just a general statement. It's hard to tell the stock when something is entombed. I understand you don't own any. My apologies....and btw, the type 2's are the more standard ones....type 1's are thinner stock and the type 3's don't have big borders and are a little heavier stock. Sometimes it pays to be a type collector <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ....take care

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08-11-2006, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Al C.risafulliLeon, No apologies necessary at all. I just learned something, which is the point of the board, right? I knew one was lighter and the other two were heavier, I just had my numbers incorrect. The one Type 2 that I have was broken out of a Global holder, felt with my own hands and smelled with my own nose, and then promptly sent to SGC. My type collection's just not as deep as yours. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1155230092.JPG">

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08-11-2006, 09:59 PM

Posted By: Brian GoldnerIMO, the hobby is not at all prepared to deal with these very dangerous issues. At least now now. At present, these problems are simply brushed under the rug, and conveniently forgotten about. IMO, only if these things begin to happen often enough, to undermine the confidence of the buyers, to the point where the $$$ stops flowing, will anything be significantly addressed, on a hobby-wide basis. Alterations/trimming etc. have been going on for decades, with those happening in earlier years (trimming), obviously being for different reasons, then that of the past 25-30 years or so, when restoration also entered into the equation. To offer an opinion, as to what degree, is difficult. With consideration to pre-war, i think that it is rather dependant upon the issue, as to what percentage of higher end graded material, may in fact, be altered. To address the possibility of a Black Monday of sorts, i respectfully disagree with you Leon. IMO, a significant downturn will eventually take place, but to what degree, is hard to say. It is inevitable, regardless of the fact that the depth of buyers, is deeper than it was in the last cycle. When it happens, i would think that people will still be buying to some degree, but i expect that it will be spotty, with interest generally being in specific things. Outside of those specifics, it will be tough, as buyers won't be lining up to purchase material on that day, if a new prevailing wisdom is that the same material might be cheaper the following day. Thanks everyone, Brian

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08-11-2006, 10:07 PM

Posted By: leonYou make good points for a good debate. I assume you have read a lot of the trade rags from 10-30 yrs ago? I could find very many instances where the authors of articles are talking about the rising prices of cards. Seemed like things were going crazy with prices going up so fast. There could be a downturn sometime, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel our niche of the hobby is too deep for a plummet or "Black Monday". ...I don't think prices can continually go up the way they have though. ...just my 2 cents....and I've been wrong before ??

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08-11-2006, 10:31 PM

Posted By: jay behrensprices may not pummet, but they will more likely flaten out. In the late 80s, everyone thought there was no limit to the rise. Newer stuff eentually plumetted while vintage cards dipped a bit, but basically flattend out for much of the 90s. The same will most likely happen some time in the near future. The market may be deep nw, but when the market flattens out or dips a bit, a lot of the depth is going to disappear. Those people are here because they think can make easy money. When that is no longer the case, they leave and move on to something else. The die hards, like us, will still be here, buying things up while those with less dedication are dumping their holdings. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-11-2006, 11:00 PM

Posted By: E, DanielNotice just the one full stop. My goats been got a lot lately, so here's another. There is an awful lot of hobby snobbery that goes on in these posts, and these are my personal bugbears. All of them assume that those of you who have enjoyed the hobby in one particular way, old school you might conveniently call it, can set the table for all who come - or else the nouveau hobbyists should all get mocked and mud-pied. 1. You have to hold a card in your hands, and use all five senses while moving across the rice paper in the dojo in pitch darkness navigating pits of asps, to understand cards. Horse manure. 2. Putting them in plastic holders and thus out of easy groping is heretical. Hah. You enjoy your cards your way, I'll enjoy mine however I damned choose, and its no less grand a method than yours for it achieves its purpose. It pleases me. 3. New collectors to the hobby, who haven't read article 154 of some trader magazine circa 1991, deserve to be ripped off in their pursuit of cards for their lack of deep understanding and nodding acquiescence. Sure. And if you've never set the timing on a 59 corvette, you have no right keeping one in the driveway. Never been gay and had your own makeover show, who are you to choose the drapes? Never gone to the fifth set advantage by 2 at 12-11 down and serving 0-30, well then, turn off the US open between McEnroe and Lendl right now. I mean it, right now! I just don't get it. I've been involved in the card world some 6 years now, with considerable buying, selling, and researching time clocked in. And yet, I only just stumbled across this site some 6 months ago and in reading the posts it is as if the entire vintage world somehow only resides on these pages. Are you all kidding yourselves? Whilst many, maybe most, of the big players are aware of the site, it is but a tuna in the oceans of the collecting world and hardly carries all wisdom and truth within it. So, to John S, who is my new favourite Dorskin and pompous of his place as a hobbyist I'm quite sure beyond his real measure....... I don't think anyone deserves to be shafted simply because they don't know better. Just like my wife should be able to go in and get the same deal on a car - new or used, at a dealership as I would. Just like the plumber should take 45 minutes to do a 45 minute job - and not an hour and a half. Just as, children born into those crazy polygomous homes in Utah need to be taken out of an environment they don't control and given a chance for a decent life. But on this board, it seems that some have perfected the art of self-agrandizement and diminishment of others to such levels that they really believe this board has all the answers, just sit back and listen and soon they will become obvious to even an idiot like you, Daniel. Yes, we're talking to YOU. Daniel edited for spelling.

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08-11-2006, 11:54 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDaniel, if you really think this board is a small fish in the big ocean of collecting, then you are deluding yourself. There is no single place that provides more knowledge about vintage cards than this site. Many of the top dealers and collectors frequent this board and provide their knowledge and insight. Many of these dealers and collectors have been around since the 70s adn early 80s. No one is deriding your choice to own nothing but slabbed cards. Go ahead and collect that way, if that's what makes you happy. Just know that when you finally find that once in a lifetime collection of cards at an estate sale or garage sale, you will lack the requisite knowledge and experience in handling real cards to know the difference between a real and fake card when you hold a raw card in your hand. Nothing can substitute for holding a card in your hand. You get to learn what the paper stock should look like, how it should flex, how the light should reflect of it, what the card should like on the edges, whether it is one piece of cardboard, or several layers glued together. You cannot see the edges of a slabbed card to learn this information. We may come across as holier than thou when it comes to card knwoledge because the knowledge we have obtained was hard fought for and tooks years and the handling of thousands of cards to gain this knowledge. Now with the internet, what took us old schoolers 10 years or more to learn can be learned ina matter of months, less the card handling. Nothing can substitute for that. You'll have to pardon our holier than thou attitute you seem to think we have, as we have earned this right. And you are right, you don't need to know how to set the timing on a 59 Vette to own one, but you if plan on buying one, you better know what came ona stock one and the other details you needed to know in order to a good investment quality car. Collect whatever you want, the way you want, but don't chastise us because we have knowledge that you will never have because of the way you collect. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-12-2006, 12:04 AM

Posted By: William HeitmanBarry Halper incorporated a company named the National Association of Sports Collectors (it's been quite a few years, so I may have the name a little wrong). It was in 1976. He asked me to sit on the original board of directors and asked for suggestions on what the organization could do. I wrote Barry a letter in which I suggested several things--provide a means to arbitrate disputes between collectors, push for grading guidelines and a National Sports Collectors Convention(where the free flow and exchange of information would be foremost). These were the things I wanted to see as a condition of my sitting on the board. Well, we did some free advertising through George Lyons' and my articles in the Trader Speaks. I did one arbitration--and it remains the only one that was ever done. A few years later, Gavin Riley got hold of Barry's and my correspondence when he was interested in such a group. He read my letter about the National Convention and took it from there. And wow, when I went to the National this year (my first in 14 years), I could hardly believe what it had become.

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08-12-2006, 12:12 AM

Posted By: E, DanielI accept all you have said. But don't speak to what you yourself don't know. In my study of graphic design / electronic design, I completed a full year of credits with focus to the printing process and all things related to applying images to paper. I did so in a full printing room with 6 color commercial heidelberg printer (30 feet long, 15 foot high, many many tonnes), and all requisite current industry standard machinery. I worked with more presses, cutting machines, plate making, image setting, color testing, and most importantly, paper of every hue and fabrication and age - than I believe most - who at least equally have worked in this industry. Makes me fairly expert on paper, and ink, and recognizing modern ink transfer on modern paper, and older lithographic processes. I don't blurt this out as justification for my words, but just to have you know that in the thousands and thousands of vintage cards you have personally handled, there may just be expertise you will never gain that I have through my own life experiences. So, always be careful of what you assume others to know, or not know. It speaks exactly to my point in my post. And whilst I absolutely agree that the heaviest proportion of vintage knowledge may be wrapped up in members who occasion this site, that does not mean that said knowledge is uniform, or agreed upon, or always accurate, even between Net54 members. It is for that very reason that I find it comical for so many to constantly complain of grading, when I am absolutely positive that If we were to place 100 vintage cards before 30 different 'expert' Net54 members, there would be no less of a spread in grading opinions than what routinely comes out of the big 3 grading companies. And, I both enjoy, respect, and think carefully on what your write, even when it is just fun-filled. Sincerely Daniel Ps. I busted out an E94 Cy Young Green background out of an SGC holder recently........it was ok, I guess, not exactly up to some of the great drugs I've taken in my life, and will be going back into an SGC plastic black holder at the first opportunity. I would say that I've purchased and had in my possession at least 40-50% of my collection raw, and only graded them some time down the line. I like them graded, just as I like my catfish blackened.

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08-12-2006, 06:28 AM

Posted By: jay behrensAlmost all your daily decisions in life are made with assumptions because it is impossible to know everything about something definatively. It's a very safe assumption that the vast majority of the people ont his board do not have a background in printing. You are an absolute exception to the average person that frequents this board with your background. It's impossible to write for all exception. Otherwise, you end up writing something and then prefecing it with "...except for...". Writing like that is just rediculous. While you education maybe a wonderful thing, it's no better than going to school and getting a degree in art. Until you actually get a job with a museum and can actually get your hands on some paintings and start examining them, all the book learning in the world isn't going to substitute for the real thing. Yes, there are people here that have problems with graded cards, but it's genrerally with the slabbers lack of being to properly identify a card, not the technical grade. When there is a beef with ita grades, it's generally so far off that even a blind chimp could see it should not get that grade, the PSA3CJ Wagner that should be a PSA1 being one of the grossest examples I can think of. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-12-2006, 07:02 AM

Posted By: warshawlawOf course the market took a dump on new product in the 80s and 90s and 2000s; anything that is massively printed, traded in bricks of 100 or more cards (remember that?), and widely held is simply not worth squat. It is strictly a hype-driven market. Vintage stuff, on the other hand, has done nothing but increase in price over time. If the market lost 50% of its value today, there are plenty of collectors salivating to get in.

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08-12-2006, 07:26 AM

Posted By: Jeff Prizner"We may come across as holier than thou when it comes to card knwoledge because the knowledge we have obtained was hard fought for and tooks years and the handling of thousands of cards to gain this knowledge. Now with the internet, what took us old schoolers 10 years or more to learn can be learned ina matter of months, less the card handling. Nothing can substitute for that. You'll have to pardon our holier than thou attitute you seem to think we have, as we have earned this right." OK, but just know that this attitude in general (as well as the frequent chastising of collectors) is exactly what discourages A LOT more knowledgeable people from posting here, which would make Net54 even that much better! Just my 2 cents - feel free to chastise away.

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08-12-2006, 07:37 AM

Posted By: John SDaniel, Are you still sore because I called you out regarding your true motivations for criticizing Barry, Leon, and other board members? Would you like me to provide a CV documenting my collecting experience? That would be silly now wouldn't it? At the end of the day I am thankful for my family, collecting baseball cards is just a nice little diversion that has been a hobby of mine for the past thirty years. Does thirty years make me more knowledgeable than someone who has been doing it for five or ten years? Not necessarily, but I share my experiences and knowledge not to be boastful (again Daniel, they are only baseball cards) but to be helpful and add to the discussion. Whether you want to believe what I or others say is your decision. Do we need to foot-note every documentation? You are simply an antagonist, and I am embarrased that I am even responsding but want to clarify a few things regarding your personal attacks. Many of us on this board disagree about grading, collecting styles, what topics should be permitted to be discusessed, etc. However, most of us are open-minded enough to share the knowledge that we have and accept differences in opinion without getting too personal. If you believe that you are too lofty for the board, find a bigger pond.

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08-12-2006, 08:23 AM

Posted By: E, DanielIf you read your own posts before you submit them, and know what a pompous so and so you come across. And how on earth can you say you know anything about my "true" motivations (seems nigh on impossible, let me know of your powers to do so), hint at it regularly in subsequent posts on different topics and make other snide comments, and feel you are immune to response? If you want to take pot shots at me, just use the email below my name, you will need a little courage to do so though........ Ps. And if you care to read carefully, others who managed to respond to my post and responses, including Barry and William Heitman and others, made measured, intelligent comments. It seems the questions or posturing of them wasn't quite so offensive, or naive, or whatever you seem to judge them for others to bear. Daniel

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08-12-2006, 12:50 PM

Posted By: PC--

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08-12-2006, 01:42 PM

Posted By: edacra It wasn't just the 80's-90's stuff that took a hit. I don't know if vintage cards are rebounding or just stayed stagnant, but there is some pricing which is about the same as it was in 1990.

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08-12-2006, 02:04 PM

Posted By: Bruce Babcock"In my study of graphic design / electronic design, I completed a full year of credits with focus to the printing process and all things related to applying images to paper. I did so in a full printing room with 6 color commercial heidelberg printer (30 feet long, 15 foot high, many many tonnes), and all requisite current industry standard machinery. I worked with more presses, cutting machines, plate making, image setting, color testing, and most importantly, paper of every hue and fabrication and age - than I believe most - who at least equally have worked in this industry. Makes me fairly expert on paper, and ink, and recognizing modern ink transfer on modern paper, and older lithographic processes. I don't blurt this out as justification for my words, but just to have you know that in the thousands and thousands of vintage cards you have personally handled, there may just be expertise you will never gain that I have through my own life experiences." That's a lot of "I" and "my" for someone who is asking us to tone down the self-aggrandizing. As far as the expertise that you have that we will never gain, I guess we'll just have to learn to live with disappointment.

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08-12-2006, 02:04 PM

Posted By: jay behrensJeff, Daniel is the one that claimed Barry, myself and others with extensive knowledge act holier than thou. Those are his words. I know I don't consider myself holier than thou, and I doubt Barry or anyone else does either. We just happen to have a lot of knowledge and this can be intimidating to some people. As for my style of posting scaring people off, if this is case, then I feel sorry for these people because if they are intimidated by me, I would hate to think what meek existance these people live in real world where people really are intimidating. They must want to run away and crawl under a rock if they meet someone intimidating in person. You need to give people a little more credit. I'm sure there are some people that have been scared off by me, but I was brought up to stand behind my beliefs and fight for what I think is right. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. I can go to sleep at night knowing that no one can run rough shod over me and that even if things don't go my way, at least I true to myself. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-12-2006, 03:34 PM

Posted By: Jeff PJay, I don't think it's about people being intimidated by you or others on the board, it's just exhausting to know that if someone posts something, they then have to post 4 or 5 more messages just defending their original post, even on topics when an argument or debate really isn't even necessary. Example: If I say I like graded cards, I then get to hear all the messages about how I'm not a true collector and how vital it is to be able to touch and feel (and smell) the actual cardboard to gain any real insight or knowledge. How everyone like me who collects graded is a slab-head that wastes their money just collecting plastic and numbers. What's the point of comments like that? Does that make for good open discussion? Is someone's personal collecting habbit a great topic for debate?

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08-12-2006, 03:43 PM

Posted By: E, Daniel"Jeff, Daniel is the one that claimed Barry, myself and others with extensive knowledge act holier than thou. Those are his words." Firstly Jay, you are pulling together numerous posts that I have written, and somehow decided to attribute them to yourself and Barry, when I in fact did not name you thus. I spoke generically of an attitude in postings on this site, and never made mention of yourself or anyone else. I referred to Barry for his post regarding a warning of tampered cards in his direct knowledge, and Leon similarly, and asked for those who had such knowledge to share it with us all. I also commented, in harsh terms, that I believed doing otherwise unacceptable if one chose to bring it up in a post in an attempt to rally support, but not give up the actual facts as they are known, or believed. I stand by the statement completely, and that is all I made mention of in regards to Barry and any other 'experts' at Net54. It seems to me that you Jay are in fact the one that was willing to accept that you may come across as arrogant: "We may come across as holier than thou when it comes to card knwoledge because the knowledge we have obtained was hard fought for and tooks years and the handling of thousands of cards to gain this knowledge. Now with the internet, what took us old schoolers 10 years or more to learn can be learned ina matter of months, less the card handling. Nothing can substitute for that. You'll have to pardon our holier than thou attitute you seem to think we have, as we have earned this right." And then this..... "While you education maybe a wonderful thing, it's no better than going to school and getting a degree in art. Until you actually get a job with a museum and can actually get your hands on some paintings and start examining them, all the book learning in the world isn't going to substitute for the real thing." I did alot more than read some books, and thought my description of working with actual commercial printing machinery and handling actual paper whilst producing real commericial artwork for the public kind of made a point.....clearly it did not. I was merely attmepting to mitigate your denegrating description of my knowledge and experience as it is relevant to the hobby. First time I had spoken thus of my background on the chatboard, and I guess I'm embarrassed that this too has been somehow made the butt of your reply. "A number of people want proof for the accusations that cards are being altered and finding their way into slabs (a reasonably clear reference to my post). "Use your eyes and experience...what further proof do you need? I believe that Gil stated that one of the negative consequences of grading is the dumbing down of the hobby, collectors relying on the third-party system for peace of mind rather than their own experience. I couldn't agree more." Again, as I mentioned before, I think this is a pretty pointed insult to collectors who have other preferences for how they collect, and clearly tries to paint the picture that such collectors are 'dumbed down' for their choices. I couldn't agree less. "By calling out Barry you put him in a bad position. He has no responsibility to identify individuals and it would not improve the hobby. I think you know that. What are your true intentions and motivation for this post Daniel? Protecting an investment?" And... "Are you still sore because I called you out regarding your true motivations for criticizing Barry, Leon, and other board members?" How absurd a duo of statements was this? And.... "You are simply an antagonist, and I am embarrased that I am even responsding but want to clarify a few things regarding your personal attacks." If you don't believe these personal, and offensive, good luck to you. "As I stated in another thread yesterday, and now the accusation is being made explicitly, any suggestion that Barry or Leon or anyone else is part of a coverup just because they have heard rumors about things or have some second or third hand indirect knowledge is just plain stupid and irresponsible. Who the heck are you to judge them, Daniel? Give me a break and give us all some peace." I guess just another benign response to my post, in your opinion Jay. And Bruce. "Collectors may know about more cards now, but they don't, as a rule, know more about cards. Obviously I'm not talking about the many knowledgeable contributors to this forum." Well, nice to know that if your part of the Net54 inner circle, you may actually know something about cards. Otherwise, you're as dolt. "Collect whatever you want, the way you want, but don't chastise us because we have knowledge that you will never have because of the way you collect." Hmmm. Never huh. I guess I should just give up now. "I would hate to think what meek existance these people live in real world where people really are intimidating. They must want to run away and crawl under a rock if they meet someone intimidating in person." My address is 4413 Goldfield st, Lawrence KS 66049. You won't find me hiding under any rocks if you should choose to visit. And a number of members have now suggested I leave the forum because of my views...and I'm considering it. Definitely isn't worth being bashed personally by people I hadn't even entered into an argument or discussion with, or to be asked to take insult after insult and not reply. Sincerely Daniel

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08-12-2006, 03:52 PM

Posted By: jay behrensCan you pull a single post where someone says that you are not a real collector if you collect slabbed cards? I don't recall this ever being said, but a lot of slab like to THINK that they have read this somewhere. It's kind of Baptists that are convinced the tribulation is in the bible, but it really isn't. If people want to collect only slabbed cards, that is a perfectly acceptable way to collect. It's an easy way out of ot having to learn to authenticate the cards that you collect. That's fine. For some people, they feel they have better things to do than learn how to tell the difference between an real and fake card they collect and leave it a third party to do it for them. The point that most of us supposed anti-slabbers is that if you choose to collect only slabbed cards, then there is little chance that you will learn the ins and outs of being tell a real card from a fake when you finally make that find at an estate or garage sale. Wihout that knowledge, you have to decide if you want risk few hnder, or most likely a few thousand dollars on some cards you aren't whether they are real or not. As for people that do want to have to defend a postition that they have posted, they can't be strong in their conviction of that stance if they aren't willing to defend it or listen to the other side. To me, that's just spineless and weak. But to each his own. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-12-2006, 04:05 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDaniel, you may not have named names with your holier than thou diatribe, but you basically indicted all the knowledgable members of this board with your comment. For me and others if we take offense to it, but you have no one to blame but yourself for what you brought upon yourself. Aren't you the same person that said we shouldn't be making assumptions? How do you explain this then? Well, nice to know that if your part of the Net54 inner circle, you may actually know something about cards. Otherwise, you're as dolt. No assumptions there at all that I can see <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> If you leave this board because of the ruckus you started here, you have no one to blame but yourself again and it will be your loss as everyone, including myelf, can learn a lot here. I got treated a whole lot worse when I first came here and earned the title Dunderhead, but I didn't run away because I was taken task for comments I made. Just remember, cutting off your nose to spite your face is not a good thing. Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-12-2006, 04:14 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesHow proud the child feels when his whining and obnoxious behavior finally gets the attention of the adults! ... And if you care to read carefully, others who managed to respond to my post and responses, including Barry and William Heitman and others, made measured, intelligent comments. It seems the questions or posturing of them wasn't quite so offensive, or naive, or whatever you seem to judge them for others to bear.

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08-12-2006, 04:20 PM

Posted By: E, DanielAll done, won't be back. Daniel

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08-12-2006, 04:27 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDamn it, Gil! I'm the one that is supposed to running off people <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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08-12-2006, 04:55 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesAnd Jeff, you raise an important point: "OK, but just know that this attitude in general (as well as the frequent chastising of collectors) is exactly what discourages A LOT more knowledgeable people from posting here, which would make Net54 even that much better! Just my 2 cents - feel free to chastise away." My take on this is simply that taking this stuff sufficiently seriously to be discouraged from participating because the mix of crazies is not to your liking, is an error in judgement, imho. After all: this is only cards, and in this important hobby, I am indeed Only Gil. I wish I could make our venue more hospitable than it is because I value the input of others many of whom I know or have dealt with, and perhaps many more that I do not know. But some take this stuff to heart - don't go E, Daniel - I was just taking a shot 'cause I saw the opening - it is really only a game. Ask Jay. Please don't be offended by the bravado. Heck, the slabheads stand up for themselves against the bottom feeders. It seems like a fun circus. There sure is an open sharing of information, unless you question n172 too closely. Come back E.Daniel, you come back and speak your mind. And I will thwack you every time I can.

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08-12-2006, 05:09 PM

Posted By: JoannI think we have a marvelously controlled forum for voicing all kinds of differences of opinion. Most flare ups seem to settle down quickly and all is well, with former combatants joining together as the battle lines are drawn in the next discussion. For the variety of personalities combined with intelligence and strength of opinions, I think this is a remarkably cohesive group (just watch what happens if some outsider come in and start thwacking). So Daniel, as to the thwacking (hee, good word) you've taken lately, I think you've thwacked in the past and some might say this thing started with you thwacking someone else. But you contribute good thoughts and information, and are a model for engaging writing style, and are an asset to the dialog. If you want to go no one can stop that. But it would be a waste, and if everyone that rec'd the feedback you have in the past few days left over it, we'd hear echoes in here. I just try to stay the hell out of it all. Sometimes successfully, sometimes less so. But it happens. Joann "Thwack not lest ye be thwacked." I think that's my new favorite saying.

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08-12-2006, 05:15 PM

Posted By: NoelThis is a very sad turn of events. I think the real troubling hobby development is EDaniel not posting anymore. I tuned in nightly with ferver and great passion just to see what EDaniel had posted. He had become a favorite of sorts of mine. Kind of reminded me of a Jerry Springer episode. I can only hope that he will reconsider and come back.

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08-12-2006, 05:15 PM

Posted By: leonI hope E.Daniel doesn't leave. He has a right to his opinion just like everyone else. I have no issue with being taken to task for something I say or do. I can defend my stance or change it.....either choice is ok but in the end....as Gil says, and we all say, it's only cards. Collect what you like to collect. A lot of my cards are graded and a lot aren't. My guess is that is the way they will continue to be. Actually I really hope you don't go E.Daniel. It's differing views that make the world go around. Sort of like when I was the only Republican in a room full of Democrats in college. Oh, the fun.........

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08-12-2006, 05:21 PM

Posted By: John SDamn!!! I missed the fun. I don't think that I have been quoted as much in the last two years as in the last two days. Just to clarify, I have opinions and will defend them, but when it comes to cards who really cares? Slab them, keep them raw, use them to paper to inside of your underwear...your choice. I know my cards but understand that there are people that participate and read this board that know far more than I.

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08-12-2006, 05:45 PM

Posted By: Jeff P"I have opinions and will defend them, but when it comes to cards who really cares? Slab them, keep them raw, use them to paper to inside of your underwear...your choice." Exactly! To each his own, that's all I'm saying.

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08-12-2006, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)"I hope E.Daniel doesn't leave. He has a right to his opinion just like everyone else." - Leon You know what they say about opinions - they're like a$$hole$, everybody has one. We all take turns wearing the "a$$hole hat." There are NO egos in this forum - ouch, my nose just shot out and hit my monitor... to stop posting because of a family squabble is pointless. Someday the person with whom you may have a difference of opinion may answer a question for you in this arena and you'll have to laugh to yourself. Jay - who let you out of the cage? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Nope I'm not dogging you, just having a little fun. Are we all pals again fellas? Wow, this goes to show how a thread can change courses. You could go to the beginnig of the thread and follow the topic changes. I find it more fun to take prescription medicines (insert lefthanded cigarettes, alcohol or what ever your vice happens to be) and start from the bottom of the thread and go backwards... it makes for a lot of wasted, but fun times... Edited to change the spelling of *******s to a$$hole$

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08-12-2006, 06:24 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI started this thread with a provocative question and it got off to a good start. It seems to have deteriorated along the way. I hate to see members argue and then ultimately leave the board. I don't know Daniel but I ask him to reconsider when things die down and to come back on board. We've all had some tough times here- ask Jay Behrens who has suffered plenty of arrows and slings but he's tough as nails and sticks with it and I respect him for that. I hate the personal attacks although I realize they do happen; I've been walloped myself a few times. Anyway, this is a good thread and maybe we can get back on topic. Thanks for listening.

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08-12-2006, 06:47 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)How is the hobby prepared to deal with these very dangerous issues: <ul> <li>Tampering with encapsulated cards <li>The encapsulation of altered cards <li>As cards become more expensive, there is a greater incentive to alter and counterfeit them in ever more sophisticated and difficult to detect ways. </ul>

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08-13-2006, 07:51 AM

Posted By: PC--

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08-13-2006, 09:26 PM

Posted By: Mike (18colt)Good evening, all. I don't post a lot (though most of my posts regard T-206), but after reading through this thread, I'd like to comment on a few items if I may. Note that my e-mail address is accessible through the link, and several board members have sold and/or traded with me through the B/S/T and/or eBay, so I'm not exactly anonymous. 1) As noted, I don't post a lot. As a result, most of you know very little about me. I've only attended one National (A.C., 2003), as I won't fly anywhere when I can drive to Fort Washington in under 2 hours. I set up a table at one show at the Valley Forge Convention Center in PA in 1991. I've been on eBay since 1999. I even acquired some nice cards on the old Teletrade site. I used to be a co-worker with a son of Lew Lipset, and still compete in the same fantasy football league with him (though Lew doesn't know me, as I've never won an auction of his). Basically, no one really knows me. However, I've been a collector for over 20 years. Used to read SCD when it was still good, too. Anyways, though I don't say much, I am one of many, many collectors who have a decent knowledge base about vintage cards. Though I don't agree entirely with the "holier-than-thou" and "inner circle of Net 54" stuff, I do agree that there are a lot of collectors out there who could contribute, that people don't know about, but don't. I am one of many. (Disclaimer - I actually rarely post because someone else seems to always beat me to an answer to someone's query). 2) In Fred's bulleted queries in the prior post, I don't think that the large majority of the hobby, i.e., collectors, are willing to do anything to combat card tampering in any way. The knowledge base really isn't there. No offense to slab-only collectors, but I do agree with Jay that holding a card definitely provides a collecting education that most (not all -- E, Daniel excluded) slab collectors won't acquire. E, Daniel's knowledge of modern printing techniques is a good tool for ID-ing reprints, too. I will note that though most of my cards are not slabbed, I do own some that are. This leads me to . . . . 3) Mr. Heitman alluded to a collector's group founded in the late 1970's. Perhaps a new group could work with show promoters to help. I think one solution would be for major shows, including the National, to have free seminars during the shows to educate collectors on a wide variety of topics, lasting 30 minutes or so in order for collectors to gain insight on multiple topics and still have time to buy, buy, buy. For example, sample topics could include grading a card (could be specific by issue or in a general sense), how to identify fakes/tampered/altered/reprinted cards, buying/selling cards on eBay or with an auction house, history of T-206, the secrets of the Old Judge cards (I agree with Gil - a lot of deeply held secrets out there about Old Judge cards), spotlights on forgotten players, etc. 4) I think that those with firsthand knowledge and actual evidence about the famed PSA-8 Wagner should present it. From what I've read, the owner of the card is using it to promote that hobby. More information, whether or not it lowers the monetary value of the card and forces some to answer some tough questions, would only enhance the card's legend, and add to its story and mystique. Whether it was trimmed/altered or not, let's not forget it's a real, authentic Wagner, with an exceptional portrait appearance (no creases through the image!). For the record, I have no knowledge of the happenings or lack thereof pertaining to this card other than what I have read, good and bad, or this forum or on links presented here on this forum to other sites. 5) Overall, this board is a credit to the hobby. An experienced collector like myself found this site about 3 years ago (I know I posted in August of 2003, and without an SCD learned of the A.C. National in 2003 that summer), but other experienced collectors (E, Daniel for example) are just now finding this site, and many others haven't a clue about it. I think if those of you that set up at shows somehow promoted this board for the vintage community, perhaps even more experienced, knowledgable collectors could contribute, and the the less experienced, the new, and even the old could learn more (I'm sure some of you do somehow, but the more the merrier). Well, there it is. My longest post ever. Leon, you're doing an excellent job moderating this board. Please keep up the good work. Thanks to all who post. Hopefully some of my thoughts will amount to something. Mike (18colt)