I think we all knew this already

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Requiem for a Rookie Card<br />How baseball cards lost their luster.<br />By Dave Jamieson<br />Posted Tuesday, July 25, 2006, at 6:31 AM ET <br />Last month, when my parents sold the house I grew up in, my mom forced me to come home and clear out my childhood bedroom. I opened the closet and found a box the size of a Jetta. It was so heavy that at first I thought it held my Weider dumbbells from middle school. Nope, this was my old stash. Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of baseball cards from the 1980s. Puckett, Henderson, Sandberg, Gwynn, and McGwire stared back at me with fresh faces. So long, old friends, I thought. It's time for me to cash in on these long-held investments. I started calling the lucky card dealers who would soon be bidding on my trove.<br /><br />First, I got a couple of disconnected numbers for now-defunct card shops. Not a good sign. Then I finally reached a human. "Those cards aren't worth anything," he told me, declining to look at them.<br /><br />"Maybe if you had, like, 20 McGwire rookie cards, that's something we might be interested in," another offered.<br /><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br /><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />"Have you tried eBay?" a third asked.<br /><br />If I had to guess, I'd say that I spent a couple thousand bucks and a couple thousand hours compiling my baseball card collection. Now, it appears to have a street value of approximately zero dollars. What happened?<br /><br />Baseball cards peaked in popularity in the early 1990s. They've taken a long slide into irrelevance ever since, last year logging less than a quarter of the sales they did in 1991. Baseball card shops, once roughly 10,000 strong in the United States, have dwindled to about 1,700. A lot of dealers who didn't get out of the game took a beating. "They all put product in their basement and thought it was gonna turn into gold," Alan Rosen, the dealer with the self-bestowed moniker "Mr. Mint," told me. Rosen says one dealer he knows recently struggled to unload a cache of 7,000 Mike Mussina rookie cards. He asked for 25 cents apiece.<br /><br />For someone who grew up in the late 1980s, this is a shocking state of affairs. When I was a kid, you weren't normal if you didn't have at least a passing interest in baseball cards. My friends and I spent our summer days drooling over the display cases in local card shops, one of which was run by a guy named Fat Moose. The owners tolerated us until someone inevitably tried to steal a wax pack, which would get us all banished from the store. Then we'd bike over to the Rite Aid and rummage through their stock of Topps and Fleer.<br /><br />Card-trading was our pastime, and our issues of Beckett Baseball Card Monthly were our stock tickers. I considered myself a major player on the neighborhood trading circuit. It was hard work convincing a newbie collector that Steve Balboni would have a stronger career than Roger Clemens. If negotiations stalled, my favorite move was to sweeten the pot by throwing in a Phil Rizzuto card that only I knew had once sat in a pool of orange juice. After the deal went through, my buddy wouldn't know he'd been ripped off until his older brother told him. He always got over it, because he had no choice: Baseball cards were our common language.<br /><br />In the early 1990s, pricier, more polished-looking cards hit the market. The industry started to cater almost exclusively to what Beckett's associate publisher described to me as "the hard-core collector," an "older male, 25 to 54, with discretionary income." That's marketing speak for the Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons. Manufacturers multiplied prices, overwhelmed the market with scores of different sets, and tantalized buyers with rare, autographed, gold-foil-slathered cards. Baseball cards were no longer mementos of your favorite players—they were elaborate doubloons that happened to have ballplayers on them. I eventually left the hobby because it was getting too complicated and expensive. Plus, I hit puberty.<br /><br />It's easy to blame card companies and "the hard-core collector" for spoiling our fun. But I'll admit that even before the proliferation of pricey insert cards, I was buying plastic, UV-ray-protectant cases for my collection. Our parents, who lost a small fortune when their parents threw out all those Mantles and Koufaxes, made sure we didn't put our Griffeys and Ripkens in our bicycle spokes or try washing them in the bathtub. Not only did that ensure our overproduced cards would never become valuable, it turned us into little investors. It was only rational, then, for the card companies to start treating us like little investors. The next wave of expensive, hologram-studded cards didn't ruin collecting for us—we were already getting too old for the game. It ruined baseball cards for the next generation of kids, who shunned Upper Deck and bought cheap Pokémon and Magic cards instead.<br /><br />This year there are 40 different sets of baseball cards on the market, down from about 90 in 2004. That's about 38 too many. When there were just two or three major sets on the market, we all had the same small pool of cards. Their images and stats were imprinted on our brains. The baseball card industry lost its way because the manufacturers forgot that the communal aspect of collecting is what made it enjoyable. How can kids talk about baseball cards if they don't have any of the same ones?<br /><br />Seeing as the cards I once prized now fetch a pittance on eBay, I decided not to sell my collection. I figure my Boggs rookie is worth more as a keepsake of my card-shop days than as an online auction with a starting bid of 99 cents. The worthlessness of my collection gave me an idea, though. The card manufacturers and the Major League Baseball Players Association have launched a $7 million marketing campaign to remind a generation of children that baseball cards exist. Instead of spending all that money to tell kids that cardboard is cool, Topps and MLB should convince everyone that cards are worthless, suitable for tacking to the wall, flicking on the playground, or at least taking out of the package. <br /><br />In that spirit, the other day I opened three Topps packs that I'd stowed away as an investment in the late 1980s. I even tried the gum, which was no staler than I remember it being 20 years ago. And as I flipped through my new cards hoping to score a Mattingly, I felt that particular tinge of excitement that a generation of kids have missed out on.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>On top of that, I won't even get into how much Macaroni and Cheese and Jiffy Pop Popcorn I ate, or how many Slurpees I sucked down because they offered cards. It'll come back, though. My nephew likes baseball cards more than baseball, I think. Topps and Upperdeck just need to get their products back in the corner shops and supermarkets so the kids can beg their parents to buy them a pack or two. <br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Cards from the era are like roaches. I have seen advertised in newspaper five times in the last three months of an estate sale with a mention of "baseball cards". I hope to hit the mother load, pristine cards from the turn of the century! My own major find! After all, the house is from 1910, right? But as usual, I come up disappointed as I see 3200 count boxes full of 1980's and 1990's trading cards. Stacked up high. <br /><br />Always a tease. <br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We all know the world has changed drastically in the last few years and many of us who are older really do feel that life was simpler and more fun when we were kids. I was so lucky to grow up in the sixties and listen to all the great music from that period. Today kids have 50 cent and Brittney Spears. And they can keep them. The fun we had opening packs of cards is a lost art today. And to some extent I think the Beatles are too. Part of collecting is holding onto a piece of the past and to some degree we are all doing just that.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Amen, Barry, amen. It's hard to explain to a youngin' how we used to puzzle at whether or not to buy 5 penny packs with one card but one slab of pink gum in each or buy a nickel pack and get 8 cards but only piece of that delicious gum! I miss that gum. Pink slabs covered with that white powder. <br />As far as music, give me the Stones, Beatles, Doors, Animals, Beach Boys, Hollies, Kinks, Temptations, Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, 4 Tops, Dylan, Rascals, etc. any day of the week. THAT was music. Whenever I fondly wish I were still young, I remember the times I went through and am glad that I lived when I did. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>I grew up in the mid-eighties and some of my fondest memories surround these pieces of cardboard that are now worthless. I remember the utter jubilation of ripping a 1986 Topps box for $12 after saving my allowance for 6 weeks. I stuffed that stale gum in my face left and right, it was a feeling I never wanted to end. I remember staying up HOURS the night before the Columbia, Maryland Hilton show. In those days, most of my peers collected everything. Sportflics, 1986 Topps, 1952 Topps, t206, Goudey, whatever it was, we collected it. In 1992 the wax pack died, I was 17 and moved on to girls. I came back 7 years later, but it was never exactly the same. As for music, I could write articles and volumes (I already have), about consumer culture and music's death as an art-form. The 1980's, my childhood, was listening to the Smiths (I grew up a complete Morrissey wannabe) while ripping 30cent packs of cards. Conniving my mom to by endless amounts of Drakes, M&Ms, Meadow Gold, Jiffy Pop, Honeycomb cereal, it wasn't a tough sell at all.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>as my wife works for a facility for mentally challenged adults. They just love the slickies and every week or so she'll take in an 800 count box and pass them around. Hasn't made a dent yet as the boys did quite a bit of collecting in the 80's and 90's.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>are the folks at the National who either (1) had tables full of the shiny crap or (2) were spending good money on the shiney crap. Don't they know they are throwing good money after bad? I am amazed that Topps, etc., still have sales of $250 million. Their product takes a 90% nose-dive the moment it is sold. If there is a set I happen to like in a given year, I wait till next year and buy it collated and complete for ten bucks or less. And while I miss the gum and that smell, I can get it for a few cents with a pack of Bazooka.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>It kind of reminds me of when i use to buy baseball and hockey card packages in 1990 - 1992 when i was about 6 years old, and finding out that the were so mass produced, that the value is like 1 cent per card lol. that was when packs cost about 25 cents. not now, when you have to pay like $15 for a pack of 5 cards, just becase you might get a ****ty jersey card of a no name ball player....

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>I have a cousin who is one of the larger shiny basketball card dealers and the only thing I can compare it to is fad collecting. Some of these cards he has come from packs that cost $50+ (WTF?), and are worth $20,000 today...next year the next Lebron James comes around and last years cards lose their value. <br /><br />This is the way it was in the mid-nineties when all the baseball companies started pumping out the inserts, they were all the hot cards...until something new came out.<br /><br />I was talking to my cousin about the National and he does a brisk business, and when we talk about cards he doesn't really understand my collecting...but I don't understand his world either.<br /><br />Interesting - <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/03-04-Exquisite-LeBron-James-Scripted-Swatch-Auto-23-25_W0QQitemZ220009469544QQihZ012QQcategoryZ56125QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/03-04-Exquisite-LeBron-James-Scripted-Swatch-Auto-23-25_W0QQitemZ220009469544QQihZ012QQcategoryZ56125QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a><br /><br />Sean BH

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i don't want to generalize too much but most vintage bb collectors want to preserve that historic past of the game. while still enjoying baseball as it exists today. while the collectors of modern cards enjoy the game as it is now and don't care about the history of the game. kind of like history in general,either you love it or could care less.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We must be the same age (I'm 54) because we listened to exactly the same music. I might throw in the Yardbirds and Buffalo Springfield, but why quibble.

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>newer cards are just like the American automobile!!!<br />one of the finest lessons one can learn about personal finance is to not buy new cars....never thought about it, but it turns out the same can be said for baseball cards!!!<br />I'm almost 35 now, and I identify with several of these posted memories about the 1980s, the wax packs, the gum, etc...I hope some of it comes back and becomes more affordable to attract the kids again...because I want lots of folks around in 30 years that are interested in what I may want to sell!<br /><br />Just to give you some perspective on my level of addictive and anal retentive personality, I have very fond and vivid memories of sitting on the family room floor after attending a card show, having just bought 2 boxes of 1987 Topps rack packs...I was excited not just by the amount of cards I was about to open, but also about the prospect of cracking some packing patterns that I thought might exist in those packs...sure enough, I wrote down all the sequences, and to this day, I can tell you what the next 3 cards are under the top card under any rack pack cello for the most worthless year of Topps baseball cards ever printed!!!!<br />Good times.....great lessons learned...

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jason,<br /> I'm glad I'm a little older than you. I still have my rack/cello sequence book from 1976 thru 1987. I can't tell you how many Ripkens, Mattingly's, Boggs, Goodens, and Clemens I pulled, but I do know they helped pay for most of the vintage cards I was purchasing back then. I'm glad I didn't sit on 1000 of each, but I did save 20 to 50 of each that are still worth quite a bit slabbed. <br /> Too bad I KEPT to many Cory Snyder and Gregg Jefferies....... <br /><br /><br /><br /> Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>With low prices for ungraded 1980s cards, one will complain the cards don't sell<br />for much, and another will rejoice he can purchase cards that interest him for<br />cheap. The former is interested in money, the latter is collecting as a hobby.<br /><br />I have everyday people contacting me about identifying and dating items. It is<br />expected that they will be curious about value, but I always prefer price to be<br />their third or fourth question, not their first.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Barry- I can't believe I left off the Yardbirds (Page, Beck and Clapton) and of course Buffalo Springfield with Stephen Stills and Neil Young and Jim Messina. Outstanding. REAL music.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Did you know that when the Yardbirds broke up Jimmy Paige was given the band which he then called the New Yardbirds. He brought in an unknown singer, bass player, and drummer, and in time realized the band was heading in new directions. So he dropped the name New Yardbirds and changed it to- Led Zeppelin...and the rest is history.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>It lead to the bloated corpse that rock became in the 70s. Thank gawd for punk or music would have been a real waste land in the 70s.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>wow...This talk has brought back some great memories. Ginger Baker and Cream, Jim Crose, Pink Floyd, Wishbone Ash, Humble Pie, Starship, J. Geils, Harry Chapin, Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars( David Bowie), Jethro Tull. I could go on.<br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Zeppelin was the best 70's band and closest to the sixties in spirit- their first and best album was 1968- but can't say anything bad about the Ramones, Clash, and others.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yep Cream was pretty great too. Saw them live at MSG. Sorry this is getting so off topic, but I can go on all day. Pull the plug when you've heard too much.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...now is the time to acquire all of the 1987 Topps Danny Tartabulls, Kal Daniels, Pete Incaviglias, Mike Greenwells and Will Clarks imaginable. They will be oh so cheap and I will RULE THE WORLD!!!

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Posted By: <b>David McDonald</b><p>Will you tell us your name then?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>So there I was at the National (and btw, to me it was pretty good) and I had already looked at each table with vintage about 5x. I decided to try to find out what the folks collecting new stuff were doing. I stood next to one guy looking through piles of the stuff. I just stood there a few minutes watching and wondering....then left, still not knowing what they are doing? I have said all along that collecting ANY baseball cards is good...but like the first post says....I would hate to have spent a lot on them....regards<br /><br />edited for spelling

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I was lucky enough to see the Ramones and Talking Heads at CBGB's and Adam Ant at the Mudd Club. Also saw the Stray Cats at the 700 Club in Manhattan and Kieth Richards showed up and jammed with them. For those from SF, I used to hang at the Mabuhay Gardens and The Stone. Saw Black Flag, Dead Kennedys and other great punk bands there.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Was, about 1968, for a short time, in a group whose drummer was Joey Ramone, then known as Jeff Hyman from Forest Hills in Queens, NYC. Used to rehearse in his parent's basement. Did a grand total of (almost) one show (by that time I had already bailed, wisely or unwisely) at which I was told Jeff/Joey got s..t-faced, puked and the show had to be cancelled. My "brush with greatness".

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Never went to CBGB's even though I was working in the Village and going to NYU grad school in the 70's. My haunts were Fillmore East and Boston Tea Party (which was on Landsdown St. in Boston right behind the Green Monster).

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>3 greatest concerts I ever went to: Doobie Brothers, Springsteen and Crosby, Stills and Nash (when they were young and so was I).<br />Most regretted band never to have seen in concert-easy, The Doors.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- I saw the Doors in 1968 when they were already a bit past their prime; however, I hate to say this but in June 1967 I was at a concert at the Fillmore East when it was still called the Village Theatre and the acts were: the Doors, the Blues Project (Al Kooper's band), the Chambers Brothers, Richie Havens, and Janis Ian all on the same bill. I saw most of the show and then the Doors came out and began with "Soul Kitchen". At that very moment my parents came into the theatre, found me, and after fighting with them and having the whole audience turn around to see what the commotion was, dragged me home. I was 14 and it was the worst night of my life. Don't even ask the details. But I did hear one song. My best concerts were the Beatles twice, Jimi Hendrix, Concert for Bangladesh (yesterday was the 35th anniversary)which included Bob Dylan, the Dead in 1969, the Jefferson Airplane at the Fillmore, Mothers of Invention, and god knows how many more. I thought it would last forever, but nothing ever does.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />If you were a regular at Fillmore East, you might remember the Anderson Theater, a couple of streets down the avenue from the Fillmore. Also had the rock acts of the era, but didn't last very long, which I at least partly attribute to the non-payers who used to sneak in via down the alley and up the fire escape, in waves.

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Will try posting this again.<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Nope, don't remember the Anderson. The Fillmore was 2nd Avenue and 6th Street. How close was it?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I am familiar with that website. I think it's all Bill Graham's old stuff, being offered for sale at far too high a price.

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Barry, just think if you had got and kept the concert posters and broadsides from those concerts. You could have sold them and used the money for your baseball collection.<br /><br />Did they sell t-shirts back then or did that come in the 1970's??<br /><br />Also, what was the Hendrix concerts like???<br /><br />I have only talked to one person who actually saw him in concert and he said it was loud and different. He couldn't concentrate on the show because his girlfriend kept begging him to leave because of the "loud noise that N****r on stage is making". <br /><br />He said if he knew Hendrix wasn't going to be around much longer, he should have either not brought the girl or told her to leave so he could enjoy the show.

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>You guys are going to love this link:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/</a><br /><br />When you get there, click on "vault radio", then "play now", sit back and enjoy.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No T-shirts in those days, but the posters were pretty cool. I saw Hendrix Feb 3, 1968 at Hunter College, in case you want to google it. Frank Zappa was in the audience- we saw him in the lobby when we walked in. The band the Association was also in the audience, and I think they were introduced and stood up to applause. The music was great, mostly from his first album, and the one song I distinctly remember was "Red House." I too had no idea as did anybody that he wasn't going to live very long, and of course I never saw him again.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>The Anderson was on the other side of 2nd Ave., between 3rd and 4th streets.<br />Hosted the first NYC appearence of Big Brother and the Holding Company.<br /><br />.<img src="http://photobucket.com/albums/l160/bobpomilla/th_anderson_theater.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Barry -<br /><br />I think the Yardbirds are playing in a 300 seat venue in Virginia this month.<br /><br />Alan

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Posted By: <b>John Barnes</b><p>It's hard to argue with what the modern collectors are doing when they bust a $2000 pack of Exquisite and pull a Lebron James RC Auto Patch /99 and sell it for $200k.<br /><br />John

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Posted By: <b>jeff j</b><p>Jack Thanks for mentioning wolfgang's vault. Did anyone see the story of this on the CBS Sunday morning program 3-4 weeks ago?<br /><br />Wolfgangs's vault is the website for the guy who bought the Fillmore promoter Bill Grahams entire collection (7-8 $mil) of tickets, posters, contracts and other artifacts and they sell all this historic rock stuff on the site! Bill Graham saved EVERYTHING, there are over 1 million tickets alone!!! It's taken them 3 years to catalog all the stuff!<br /><br />And get this - they own 6500 color concert films from all these concerts in the 60's-90's at the Fillmore, Winterland etc... many of which they haven't even had time to review yet. Someday, maybe we'll all get a chance to see those films if they are put out on DVD from classic concerts back in the day. They have them all from Hendrix to Zeppelin to Skynyryd, to Dillan to Springsteen to....<br /><br />It's way cool. Maybe we can see these someday and SHOW our kids and grand kids what it was like. I was too young to see the 60's stuff but heard it was great.<br /><br />There was and still is NOBODY that can touch Zeppelin in total ability to deliver so much great, tasteful, powerful and subtle rock on one album. Nobody.<br /><br />Jeff J<br />

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>They plan to start selling cd's with live concert recordings in October. I'm saving up. But seriously, for you guys that love not only this music, but hearing the raw live concert recordings - click on the Vault Radio link now. (ps: Wolfgang was Graham's real first name.)

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Zep never did anything for me. Pink Floyd, The Clash and Prince were far better. Brian Setzer (Stray Cats) and Danny Elman (Oingo Boingo) are pretty good too. Those 2 produce a great array of music styles.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Alan- Somehow I don't think Eric Clapton and the boys are playing with this imitation group. It reminds me of when Credence Clearwater Revival was thought to be coming to town and it turned out to be a clever play on words which sounded like and had the same initals as CCR but played homages to the group, and of course no John Fogarty and the other Fogarty. <br />The Temptations are still touring even though all but one of their original members are dead and they even lost some backups along the way.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The Anderson is sounding vaguely familiar as I think about it, but I never went there. It would be great if all the concert footage became available from Graham's collection. Some of them have to be gems.

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Bob - Of course, it's not Clapton & the original members. I'm not sure who the "Yardbird" guys touring are nowadays...<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Only original member of the Yardbirds who is no longer living is vocalist Keith Relf. He electrocuted himself while playing guitar in his basemant in 1976. That's a true story.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p><a href="http://www.themarqueeclub.net/the-yardbirds" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.themarqueeclub.net/the-yardbirds</a>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since we are here....in '79, while in the Marine Corps, I saw Jefferson Airplane "introducing Grace Slick". It was at the Hollywood bowl. That was the absolute best show I have ever seen....and with my frame of mind it was really, really good that night <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....oh to be young again....best regards

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>Actually, in 1979, they would have been Jefferson Starship. The "white rabbit" era was over ten years before. If you can still listen to "We built this city" without gagging, you must be deaf.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That was the irony.....and they played all of their old songs.....(maybe I am mistaking but I thought it was Airplane....regardless it was awesome)...and Grace was Grace at her best....

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Keith Relf died in 1976??? Wow, I had no idea he had been dead for 30 years. I remember his stoic look while singing and those wrap around shades. I remember buying the black album with Shapes of Things, For Your Love, Smokestack Lightning, Over Under Sideways Down, etc. and playing it so many times it must have worn grooves.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- if you ever get a chance to see the movie "Blow Up" the Yardbirds perform in it.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jay,<br />How can anyone knock Led Zeppelin? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Growing up in L.A. I saw X more times than I can count. And The Germs, Black Flag, The Dead Kennedys, and Social Distortion were all super-important bands. But that does not take anything away from Led Zeppelin for me. <br /><br />By the way, are there any other Deadheads out there? I am a veteran of 80+ shows. I know of a few of you. Barry, did you see them again after 1969?<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Zep is just not my type of music. If I never hear Stairway to Heaven again, it will be too soon. Too me, they were begining of the end of old school rock and were epitomy of the fat bloated corpse that rock became in the 70s. Punk brought back the edge and rebellion that was rock'n roll's original claim to fame. And here I am a techno geek now because techno/rave music is the only genre that is producing new and interesting sounds. Now most pop music is just rip offs of techno/rave beats.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yes, I saw the Dead a second time, at MSG in 1991. 80 times makes you a real Deadhead. My childhood friend, Sandy Troy, saw them over 300 times and wrote two books about them: "One More Saturday Night" and "Captain Tripps." Apparently, he is trying to get a movie made about Jerry Garcia's life. I will be seeing Sandy later this summer. On another note, for those who remember the wonderful 60's band "Love", Arthur Lee died on Thursday. Their album "Forever Changes" was one of rock's classics.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>The Beatles (one of my earliest memories is sitting in our kitchen after kindergarten eating baloney sandwich and chix noodle soup, listening to "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" on the tinny little radio). Love early Who and Stones, plus Joplin, Dylan somewhat, and way early Steely Dan and CSNY.<br /><br />About 5 years ago I was listening to our Classic Rock stn, as always, and "Hotel California" came on for the umpteenth time, and suddenly this wave hit me like - you've been playing this for 30 years. Give it a rest.<br /><br />So I checked out rap and even earlier rap. I do like 50 C, some Kid Rock, and as for Eminem ... I find some of his songs all but unlistenable, and others just stun me with the genius. Really.<br /><br />And cards were stale gum, and look at who you got. If you got a Tiger, great. But if you didn't you could talk forever about who you got, who they were - didn't need any limited series, swatch of whatnot - until of course you put them in the bike spokes.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>David McDonald</b><p>"Cheap Thrills in the back of my car<br />Cheap Thrills how fine they are..."<br />-The Mothers of Invention<br /><br />Barry: Along with Buffalo Springfield, the Youngbloods, Dan Hicks and his Hot Licks, Love is one of my top favorite sixties bands. Usually when a celebrity or public figure dies I take it in stride; none of us is getting out of here alive. But hearing that Arthur Lee died gave me pause to recall those wonderful, calamitous days and the hot-to-trot young man, now greying at the temples, parked on Mulholland Drive, in the company of one hollow-skulled teen strumpet or another, a bottle of panty remover and Love Da Capo on the 8-track. Que Vida!<br />Saw Love a couple of times at the Kaleidoscope down below Sunset. Arthur Lee was magic on that stage. Never thought back then that youth would end or that the culture would evolve to mutilated bodies and shirty music. R.I.P. Arthur Lee and one more nail in my coffin . . . <br /><br />Good Love website:<br /><a href="http://www.love.torbenskott.dk/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.love.torbenskott.dk/</a>

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>They're on tour with their original line up right now. I contemplated seeing them in Cleveland but it's too soon after the National.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Never got to see Love in person, but Da Capo is one great album. "Orange Skies" "Stephanie Knows Who" and "Revelation" were fantastic. One of the least known great bands. Sad to see Arthur Lee gone. I knew he was very sick. Springfield was perhaps my favorite LA band. Are there any better albums than "Buffalo Springfield Again"?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Zach, go see X. They put on a good show. It's worth it just to see Billy Zoom. Is Ray Manzerak on keys or the very first keyboard player?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>John Doe & Exene are fantastic in concert. I was lucky to see them in a small venue in Chicago. Frank Black is another you should check out. When he left The Pixies, he struck gold on his solo albums. He also produced a great musician named Johnny Polonski(spelled wrong?)out of Chicago. I'm a sucker for a power cord!

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Baseball related tale, to stay in topic of the post:An older gentlemen moved into the neighborhood and we started talking about baseball and he told me he had these Bowman baseball cards and he said he was willing to part with them. He said he had a whole set. While the late 1940's and 1950's aren't my thing, I told him I could sell it for him. I assumed that they were in "enjoyed condition" and was expecting a fraction of a Willie Mays and a Mickey Mantle that went through the spokes several hundred times. When he started up my drive way, there it was under his left arm. A green brick. A factory 1989 Bowman set! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?<br /><br />In response to the hijacked threat: Okay, I can totally relate to the music tastes of the Board and I expect since Jay is "left of the dial", his music taste would be mine as I'm simply all over the place and tend to agree with him in this case as I prefer Jazz, old Blues, old Country and 1970's and 1980's punk. X is great, especially "Los Angeles". I am also a huge fan of "Black Flag" (as well as MC5, the Ramones...) and while Henry won't admit to our friendship after a gig five years ago and a long chat about Henry Miller, I will admit to our friendship!<br /><br />I saw the Pixies two years ago in NYC and they were as amazing as ever! I have seen Black Francis/Frank Black live twice but nothing compares to the Pixies as a complete band --Wave of Mutilation is a must for beginners. Another underrated band are the Butthole Surfers IMO. The lyrics for "Moving to Florida" simply rock:<br /><br />(I'm gonna potty train the chairman Mao/I'm gonna make the governor write my doodoo a letter, child./And I'm gonna grind me up a White Castle side out of India's sacred cow.<br /><br />Best thread...ever? Better than those Equine threads! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />DJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Also great: MC5, Television, LedZep

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Don't forget Bad Brains, the original all Black punk band. <br /><br />Even if you are not into punk, check out the documentry Punk:Aattitude, it's well worth watching. This is the only thing I have ever seen that actually captures the essence of what punk was/is about. <br /><br />My taste in music runs the gamut. For classical, I love Tchokovski, Hyden and Mendleson. Opera, Puccinni and Wagner. Rap mostly old school, Sugar Hill Gang, Run DMC, Cool Moe Dee. Metal/Guitar, AC/DC, Queen and Boston. Country, just Johnny Cash. The new ladies of country are pretty to look at, but that's it. I like Jazz, but don't have real favorites. The music I listen to most is techno/rave and 80x New Wave. I also do my own remixes.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Definately don't miss a chance to see X. They still put on a great show. Jay is right about seeing them with Billy Zoom on guitar again. FYI Ray Manzarek played on their first album and produced their first few, but I don't think he ever toured with them. He did join them on stage once or twice at the Whiskey back in the day. Growing up in L.A. had some advantages.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Barry and Bob - some of the great ones are still around fortunately.<br />Our music tastes are the same and I just saw John Fogerty last nite, and he blew the roof off of PNC Center in NJ.<br />Then when he came back for his encore, he told the crowd that he found some kid with a guitar backstage who wanted to sing with him,,,<br />"come on out here, Bruce",,,,, WOW!! what a great moment and a great way to end a fantastic show. They did a duet of Long Tall Sally.<br />I just saw Paul Simon a few weeks ago, and am seeing The Who, Stones and CSNY coming up.<br />The great music is still here, thank goodness.<br />Glad to know I am not the only one here who still loves it.<br />Almost as good as baseball,,, and before the concert I saw my Mets win a lucky one <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The only time I saw X live was in San Fran and Manzerak played with them. Not sure if I saw them at the Warfield or Filmore. <br /><br />I'm not sure how the Mabuhay Gardens pulled it off, but about every three months for almost 2 years they would have Black Flag, Husker Du, Dead Kennedys and The Minutemen playing on the bill. Talk about 4 hours of mayhem <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>That's cool about Fogerty, Richard. I saw Pearl Jam several years ago and Heart joined them for the encore and that was really neat.<br /><br />An underrated performer IMO is Iggy Pop. I saw him in concert like ten years ago and I have never seen a man with more energy and was willing to throw himself into jagged items as he did. He was topless throughout and bleeding from all over the place. He was a kinder version of the late G.G Allin, but with the same "gusto" and energy. <br /><br />After the concert I met him and he could not have been nicer. I was expecting the raucous version I saw on stage but he was soft spoken, humble and very polite. <br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I saw Iggy Pop in 1969 when he was with Iggy and the Stooges. Forgot all about him.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Iggy is always a great show. Given all the things he ahs dived into over the years, I'm surprised him body isn't just one big scar. <br /><br />I got to meet Pearl Jam and Eddy Veder at the MTV mausic awards back in ealry 90s (wanna say '93). This guy had the creepiest aura about him. I also got to met Kurt Kobane and if I was betting man, my money would have been on Veder to commit suicide instead of Kobane.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>david poses</b><p>you are speaking my language. 1985-1990 were my golden years of collecting. the thrill of opening a few wax packs hoping to get a dwight gooden was astounding. i stopped collecting in the early 90s when it got too expensive and confusing. about a month ago i couldnt sleep and for some reason, i was thinking about my abundance of wally joyner rookies and decided to see if some of my better cards were worth anything (just had a baby. need money). they were worthless, which led to a thought: if my cards are worthless, maybe the cards i always wanted but couldnt afford are also worthless, in which case, i could finally get the cards i couldn't afford back then. to my amazement, they are. except the t206s, which for some reason i always loved, and found myself buying up with a ferocity i hadn't felt since 1989. of course, it seems that in the 4 weeks since my first t206 purchase, the prices have gone up. figures. not into it for the money- into it for the fun. i guess i should try to assemble a set of 1985 topps instead.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I can't believe there's been a music thread running here for so long, and this is the first I'm seeing it. Anyway, I'd like to echo Jay's comments about the documentary "Punk: Attitude". It really is a tremendous look at one of the most exciting times in the evolution of rock. Sure, they left out a lot of important bands, and spent maybe a little too much time on a few that weren't quite as important, but aside from that it's a great film.<br /><br />-Al