N48 Allen & Ginter- Virginia Brights variation

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I sent this card, on the far left with no borders, into SGC quite a while ago and they said it was "evid trim." I am almost sure it's not. This one has no position caption which I have never seen before either. It also has a number on it like an N508 SubRosa. I have seen and handled about 30-40 of these and this is the only one like it I have seen. It has the scarcer ad back too...anyone else seen any like this? Also it measures exactly the same as the other 5-6 I have, of which most are SGC graded...No doubt it's not trimmed, imo. Definitely a different "cropping" to the pic though..Here are the four I have in my collection as types...Any and all responses appreciated..regards<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1152981726.JPG"> <br /><br />edited to correct title and make another note..

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've seen a bunch of these over the years but never one without a border. It's kind of strange but the centering of the text on the back lends credence to the card not being trimmed. SGC is extremely conservative when you send them something they've never seen before. Might help if you can find other examples, perhaps even some with good old fashioned wear, scan them, and include when you resubmit the card. Otherwise, I doubt they will grade it. It's a fear of the unknown.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>After looking at them side by side again it almost looks like the one without the borders is a pre-production picture. The "7" on the right edge would be cropped out if there was a border, like the others. ..And the picture would look to be a shade smaller, as they are in the one's with the borders.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>It's not just cropped different, but also a completely different picture. The position of the catcher is different - head cocked opposite way, angle of arm/elbow bend different, etc. But it's the same background. <br /><br />I wonder if it is one of the unused proofs. I'm sure they took several/many of each person or position and picked the best one. Think you got one of those not chosen? <br /><br />But then why the ad back? Maybe there were full cards for the customer to choose from - even different size border, etc. They would probably want to present that with ad back for full effect to customer. Then after choice they go back and process the production cards with borders, chosen pictures, etc.<br /><br />Maybe the number was just for the customer to use to identify/record his choice? Who knows - then for SubRosa they just left it on there.<br /><br />I'm way out there free-braining at this point, obviously. But it is flat out a differnt picture.<br /><br />Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think it's a variation and a card that was issued for circulation. You might have had a better chance getting it graded if the corners showed wear. Because it is both sharply cut and missing the border, it just raises an unjustified red flag.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Brian C Daniels</b><p>"what Barry said" ala his first post. I too have had dozens never without a border and the book on T-cards non-sport does not address it. Henry Mosses is the guy to confirm~<br /><br />

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>It seems to be a reasonable question, if you pay for the opinion of an expert who reports evidence of trimming: "what specifically is the evidence?"

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Unfortunately I think their evidence is that they have not ever seen one like it....the card has none of the characteristics of a trimmed card....even under magnification. I think they looked at the pointed corners (as Barry mentioned and I knew) and no borders and said "trimmed". ....I might bring them to the National so they can learn a little more about the series. SGC graders have always been good about listening.....

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Leon: lots of us have worked in the capacity of a consultant/expert in a variety of fields. I assure you that if any of us was to tell our client that our opinion is based on inexperience, they would certainly hesitate to pay our fee.<br /><br />I guess that they similarly did not charge you. I find it interesting that your consultant is receptive to you training them.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>You know, this is what happened with coins too. After years of this crap, the Early American Coppers club developed their own grading criteria, rarity indices, and related procedural techniques; employed them, and continued reasonable development of their field of specialization.<br /><br />These 19th Century baseball issues are not really very different in many respects from the coins of the late 18th century. It is a field of study different from other cards, with considerations different from most.

[Archive]

Posted By: <b>Brian C Daniels</b><p>and I have $500 dollars says no one who works there apart from measuring could tell you!

[okmaybent@aol.com]

Leon- did you ever get resolution on your N48 post? I too have Dixie Cigarettes with borders and no borders. For example I have two cards that have the number "1" on the right edge. One has a border and the other doesn't. I am pretty sure they aren't trimmed. The actual poses are slightly different too.