Rare Cards of Sudanese Players [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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06-21-2006, 12:10 AM

Posted By: David SmithSHHH. There are Sudanese baseball players but it is a top secret that only a very few select people know about. There is a secret baseball academy outside of Khartoum in a series of non-descript buildings that works on developing young players into Major League caliber talent. Only the best are "exported" to the US and Japan. The rest, sadly, are shot for fear that the secret will get out. Those that are exported have their names changed to things like Ichiro Suzuki, Pedro Martinez and Dontrelle Willis to help cover their tracks. Part of these players salaries are given back to the political leadership of Sudan. Some of the money goes to cover the cost of the baseball academy, part is kept by top level officials of the government and the rest is used for miscellaneous Sudanese expenses (mostly fighting civil wars within the country). To keep the players from telling the secret, all members of their family are rounded up and imprisoned until the players retire. Yours secretly, Sudanese Slim

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06-21-2006, 08:09 AM

Posted By: Josh K.I would say that if Joanne is correct, and I think she might be, that Marckus99 needs to come on here and explain his intent as it strikes me as somewhat anti-semitic.

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06-21-2006, 08:31 AM

Posted By: AlanJoanne - Agreed !!! I'm glad I started this type of post rather than "what dealer would you like to hurt" or "whatever happened to so & so...."

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06-21-2006, 09:22 AM

Posted By: leonMaybe it was a joke much like the author?

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06-21-2006, 09:34 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesNo, it must be a hate crime! Everyone knows better than to joke with Jewish people.

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06-21-2006, 09:42 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Leon, I dont know the author and, if it was a joke, that is fine - let him come on and explain himself. I dont know him well enough for me to assume that it was a joke. Gil, Feel free to joke with me all you want - I have no problem with that and certainly hope/believe your comment above was intended as a joke. What I have a problem with is someone apparantly taking a pot shot at another collector's choice to focus on Jewish players, as if there is something wrong with that choice.

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06-21-2006, 09:48 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesThank you Josh and Leon for helping to defuse something which was heading in the wrong direction. If anyone is uncertain of what collectibles are approved, please see Hal for the list of those authorized. I think it is termed the CWYWC list.

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06-21-2006, 09:59 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)I must be totally clueless here... what's the connection between Sudanese players, Jewish collectors and the author? Am I just that stupid (that's a rhetorical question that most would answer - yes, Fred, you're just that stupid)?

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06-21-2006, 10:09 AM

Posted By: leonIt seemed to be a swipe at folks that collect Jewish player cards, which there are many who collect them (as Joanne stated). Unless there is something I don't see that would be my thought...Not really a nice gesture but then again not everything is nice ....

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06-21-2006, 10:22 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesThat "Slim" guy started this by making fun of African Americans from Sudan. Before long the Jewish community chimed in and Leon had to quell an insurrection.

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06-21-2006, 10:24 AM

Posted By: JimBGil, I don't think bringing attention to bigotry when it arises is the "wrong direction". Just the opposite. Whether it is homophobia, anti-semitism, or racism in other forms, it seems to pop up on this forum on a fairly regular basis. Silence seems to me to be the voice of complicity. If people don't want to hear responses to bigotry, then they should leave the bigotry off the board and stick to baseball cards. I would much prefer this stuff never come up, but it does. Best, JimB

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06-21-2006, 10:28 AM

Posted By: leonI completely agree but am slow to censor stuff on the board. I put free speech very high on the totum pole...as long as it's not anonymous..One pet peeve I have is "not" allowing stuff to be put out in the open...as you are kindly reiterating.....best regards

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06-21-2006, 11:21 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesGentlemen: I see no clear indication of bigotry in this thread. My pet peeve however, is the other side of the coin. Specifically, persons who exhibit a hypersensitivity to insult. Sometimes these persons appear to seek out opportunities to take offense at comments not intended to offend. When I was younger this approach to life was termed "carrying a chip on your shoulder". Unfortunately, society's current view seems to support this hypersensitivity. I do not support that philosophy. I believe that it makes for far greater difficulty in communication. This difficulty is already quite pronounced in a format such as ours, in which the advantage of inflection, facial expression, and other personal communication assets are not available.

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06-21-2006, 11:28 AM

Posted By: AlanI agree with Leon that the original post seemed to be a swipe at my legit thread on rare Jewish player cards, which are quite a few who collect them (as Joanne stated). I think it's time for Leon to lock this one up... Alan

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06-21-2006, 11:39 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzI'm with Gil on this one.

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06-21-2006, 11:47 AM

Posted By: Chris BlandI agree with Gil on this one too

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06-21-2006, 11:54 AM

Posted By: leonGil- since we are here, and you don't feel this was a swipe at other collectors, can you please name (oh, say 1-100) all of the Sudanese major league baseball players? If you can't easily get to "1" then maybe, just maybe, we were onto something?.... No, I won't let bigotry become the norm on the board, and I don't think I am hypersensitive to it either, but I will be darned if I don't pull the discussion out into the open.... BTW, I always appreciate your posts even though sometimes they go a little over my head.....

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06-21-2006, 12:04 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe original post was obviously a joke against another thread. However, I beleive it's a leap in judgment to say it was racially motivated. He may have merely picked an obscure country arbitrarily, and he could have instead picked, say, Finish or Paraguayan players. Duly note that many Sudanese are not black, and it is construction of later posters that Sudanese meant black. Sudan was not a good country to pick for a joke, but it's probably best to interpret the post as a bad joke that did not go across well with the audience-- as there's no evidence that it was anything more.

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06-21-2006, 12:11 PM

Posted By: Josh K.David - I dont think anybody here thought that the thread was racially motivated. It did, however, insinuate that Alan's collecting choice (Jewish players) was stupid. Further, I dont think its being overly sensitive to call someone out for making a moronic comment. Its also very telling to me that Mark has yet to come back and explain his post - but perhaps he only has enough free time at night to post such drivel.

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06-21-2006, 12:18 PM

Posted By: CraigInstead of everyone interpreting his motives why doesn't Mark come on and explain why he started this thread? I am curious as to his thought process as it seems obvious there are no Sudanese players. I wish someone would start a thread about Irish players. Just the 1890's Orioles would provide a treasure chest of great cards.

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06-21-2006, 12:23 PM

Posted By: Steve M.if Tbob and I just stay out of this one.

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06-21-2006, 12:26 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesLeon, I will agree with you there. I certainly do not know of any Sudanese ballplayers. But I do not think of ballplayers as grouped by their place of origin nor by their religion, etc. For example, I do not know of any Cambodian Buddist, Latvian Orthodox, nor Scottish Catholic ball players; although I may only not know of their affiliations. And I will also agree that in many of my posts, I too have difficulty determining what I am talking about. However, in this thread it is unclear whether a disparaging intent was directed to Jewish people or to Sudanese Americans, or to Sudanese Africans, or none of these. I trust that will clear up any misconceptions.

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06-21-2006, 12:39 PM

Posted By: Bob PomillaAlways looking to add to my "vertically challenged players who had one major league at-bat" collection. (A joke, merely. No hidden commentary).

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06-21-2006, 01:50 PM

Posted By: andy beckeri do believe that there was a taste of anti semitism here. no doubt in my mind. to take a pot shot at alan's collecting is poor taste at best..... marcus, i sure would like to hear the rational in starting this thread. there is really no reason to deteriorate the board as you have. joke or not.

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06-21-2006, 02:04 PM

Posted By: Chris BlandHow is it anti-semitic? If I wrote that I think there are too many posts about Jewish ballplayers, would I also be labeled an anti-semite? Maybe Marcus' post was rude and unproductive, but that's all it was.

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06-21-2006, 02:16 PM

Posted By: andy beckerthat was my take on marcus' post. chris, you are welcome to your opinion....i think i should be able to voice mine. i do think marcus should explain himself. if all marcus said was that there are too many posts on jewish players or t206's, then it would have been left at that. to make a crack remark about a sudaneese ballplayer (and we all know darn well there aren't any) was, as i stated earlier, poor at best and anti semitic at worst. either way not good for this board.

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06-21-2006, 02:20 PM

Posted By: Wesley"to make a crack remark about a sudaneese ballplayer (and we all know darn well there aren't any) was, as i stated earlier, poor at best and anti semitic at worst." Did you spell Sudanese like that intentionally? You don't have something against the people from that region of the world do you?

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06-21-2006, 02:42 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I too believe that the thread was in poor taste at best and anti-semitic at worst. I guess those of you who dont see how it could be interpreted as such require something far less subtle - Perhaps if Mark had titled this thread "Rare Cards of Third Reich Ballplayers." (I honestly hope there was no spelling errors in here as I have nothing against anyone and no, wes, I am not comparing persons of Sudanese heritage to the third reich). Edited to add - everyone is referring to Marcus - lets not confuse Marckus99 (the person who posted this thread) with Marcus0202 (a regular contributor to the board).

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06-21-2006, 02:49 PM

Posted By: Chris BlandWell I think accusing someone of an anti-semitic act before the person even defends themselves is equally lacking in taste.

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06-21-2006, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Mark"Edited to add - everyone is referring to Marcus - lets not confuse Marckus99 (the person who posted this thread) with Marcus0202 (a regular contributor to the board)." I was just thinking the same thing. =o)

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06-21-2006, 02:59 PM

Posted By: Bill KI was going to post a similar topic about cards of former players that became dentists, but I didn't want to be labled an anti-dentite........a RAAAAAGGGING ANTI-DENTITE!!!! Bill For those who don't get it, you didn't watch enough Must See TV in the 90's. My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>

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06-21-2006, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Hey Chris, Mark has had all day to respond and has failed to do so. If he comes on and states that his intent was something other than what I and others believe it to be, I will be the first one to acknowledge that. So far, all the requests to explain the post have been ignored. For what its worth, I dont think Mark has been accused of anything. We have expressed our opinion of how we read the post and asked for an explanation.

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06-21-2006, 03:04 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Anti-Dentite - now that was funny. You can never have too many Seinfeld references. Edited to add - I believe its "rabid anti-dentite" however.

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06-21-2006, 03:08 PM

Posted By: ddWhat's next?????You believe they should have their own schools???

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06-21-2006, 03:08 PM

Posted By: warshawlawThere is a part of the book where Clem Labine is minimizing a racist insult to Jackie Robinson by saying that he would not be that offended if some guy on the other team had called him a French-Canadian **** (rather than calling JR a black ****), and someone pointed out to him that they don't lynch French-Canadian ****s. In other words, some things said to some folks are just more subject to criticism than similar things said to others because of the history they carry, and that's just a sad residue of centuries of racism and bad behavior. Members of many minority groups are hyper-vigilant as to any signs of bigotry because we've all learned that once discrimination gets rolling, it inevitably sucks in all minorities (like Chris Rock said about tolerating immigrant-bashing: "Next comes the blacks and the Jews; that train's never late"). For those who consider the Jewish collectors who responded angrily to this post to be overly sensitive, there are a lot of things I would like to say about whiny white boys feeling oppressed, but this isn't the time or the place to get into it. Suffice it to say that you have to walk a bit in their shoes first before you can understand how an ambiguous comment like this one can trigger a seemingly out of proportion response. Maybe the Robinson example will give you some ideas in that regard. It just wasn't that long ago in this country that signs reading no negroes, Jews or dogs were posted. My take on the post, for what little it is worth is that it was just a not very clever effort to make fun of the Jewish players post, but I can see where it could be interpreted as a backhanded anti-semitic comment to the effect that those who collect cards of Jewish ballplayers are being "too Jewish" about their collecting [Blazing Saddles: TAGGART: "I know; we'll kill the first born male child in each household." LAMAR: [shaking head] "Too Jewish"). What I don't think the post was meant to be was a serious question about Sudanese players. I also don't think the Darfur situation or racism against blacks played into it at all. I applaud Leon for allowing this post to stay up. Censorship isn't the answer except for obscenity and totally off-topic stuff.

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06-21-2006, 03:09 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Thanks Adam - very well put, as usual. To lighten the mood a bit: JERRY: So you won't believe what happened with Whatley today. It got back to him that I made this little dentist joke and he got all offended. Those people can be so touchy. KRAMER: Those people, listen to yourself. JERRY: What? KRAMER: You think that dentists are so different from me and you? They came to this country just like everybody else, in search of a dream. JERRY: Kramer, he's just a dentist. KRAMER: Yeah, and you're an anti-dentite. JERRY: I am not an anti-dentite! KRAMER: You're a rabid anti-dentite! Oh, it starts with a few jokes and some slurs. "Hey, denty!" Next thing you know you're saying they should have their own schools. JERRY: They do have their own schools! KRAMER: Yeah!....

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06-21-2006, 03:09 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittTim Watley......... He should get a label baby junior for Christmas........ Love those magazines at the dentists office too.......

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06-21-2006, 03:17 PM

Posted By: Chris BlandRobert Wagner as Mickey's dad... Jerry: Hi, Mr. Abbott. Mr. Abbott: That's Dr. Abbott, D.D.S. Tim Whatley was one of my students. And if this wasn't my son's wedding day, I'd knock you teeth out you anti-dentite bastard.

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06-21-2006, 03:25 PM

Posted By: andy beckerwesley, i am the worst speller on this board, perhaps the worst in the world. i am sorry, very sorry, if my poor spelling led you to think there was hidden message. there most certainly was not. i have edited previous posts for poor grammer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> , but i never catch my spelling mistakes. i am not accusing anyone of anything, but i did state how i perceived the comment. that perception has not changed.

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06-21-2006, 03:35 PM

Posted By: WesleyNo problem Andy. Sometimes I am just overly sensitive when I feel that my Sudanese friends are being disrespected even if they are not.

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06-21-2006, 03:42 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Lets compare and contrast: Wesley responds in what I believe to be a very sarcastic manner noting his "over sensitivity" regarding all things Sudanese and Andy responds and apologizes in an hour and notes that he had no intent to disparage Wesley's Sudanese "friends." We are now going on 18 hours since Joanne first commented regarding her take on this post. Not a single response from Mark.

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06-21-2006, 03:47 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzMaybe, just maybe, he's, oh, do I dare say it--- doing something else with his life?

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06-21-2006, 03:51 PM

Posted By: David McDonaldWe got sucked in by a goy troll.

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06-21-2006, 04:02 PM

Posted By: Bob PomillaA GOY troll? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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06-21-2006, 04:18 PM

Posted By: John SI think that it is great that Alan and other collectors focus on players of Jewish ancestory. I have a few extra cards of Ed Abbaticchio for the same reason as he was one of the first Italians to play pro baseball (he also played on the first pro football team in Latrobe, PA). As for the original post...it exhibits the same level of cowardice as racial slurs scribbled on the walls of a public sh%&@er.

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06-21-2006, 04:44 PM

Posted By: James FeaginWhat about rare cards of Mormon players? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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06-21-2006, 05:09 PM

Posted By: Scott GrossSorry it's Boxing, but ..... <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a296/mybuddyinc/x%20-%20etc/leachcross.jpg"> Leach Cross (aka Dr. Louis C. Wallach, DDS, "The Fighting Dentist"). As the back bio states: "New York Hebrew who met all the good lightweights of the world and seldom took the short end."

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06-21-2006, 05:09 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI'm part Norwegian. There aren't many Norwegian baseball players, but there are better cards of Norwegians Knute Rockne and skater Sonja Henie (below). <img src="http://i15.ebayimg.com/04/i/07/64/5d/5e_12.JPG"> Few Norwegians are blonde (Swedes and to a less extent Danes are blonde), but Sonja looks about as Nordic as one can look in the photo.

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06-21-2006, 06:48 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI'm really upset that no one has taken up the cause of one-eyed, left handed, albino, midget Eskimos. Jay Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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06-22-2006, 05:49 AM

Posted By: steve yawitzUh, that's Inuit.

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06-22-2006, 07:09 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI tend to think the original post probably was intended to be a light-hearted parody and was not anti-Semitic. That said, I can understand why people might question whether it was more than that, and the original author should explain himself. What disturbs me more than the original post are the posters who are mocking those who have dared to question the possibility that the remark was anti-Semitic (the "Jewish community," as if it were some monolithic entity). You bet your anatomy some Jewish people are hyper-vigilant, and if anyone thinks anti-Semitism is just some ancient phenomenon, think again. I have no doubt I will be ridiculed for this post and I really don't care. This is reminiscent of the thread where someone referred to Dmitri Young as "boy"; the poster did not mean it in a rascist way but when I pointed out that it could be misinterpreted because of its connotations, I got body slammed by all the cool people who thought I was overreacting. So all you hip, cool, what-me-worry, above the fray folks, be my guest. (Edited for typos)

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06-22-2006, 07:12 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesI have got to agree with you there, David. That is one heckofa picture! Edited to add: Certainly it is true that some non-Jews (and some Jews) do not like Jewish people. So what? Wait, I know. Lets try whining about it and calling them names like anti-Semite. Yes, that worked when we were 5 years old. Get a grip. Not everyone likes fat people, thin people, Catholics, popular people, wealthy people, poor people. Swedish, alchemists, worshipers of the sun, hockey players, etc. Further edited to add: I betcha that there are even some people who don't like Gil. Although I really can't imagine that.

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06-22-2006, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Gil, Im sorry but "so what" attitudes like the one you just expressed are exactly the reason why racism and prejudice continue in this country and elsewhere. Its also the reason why posts like this one keep going and going and going. "Hey, the Muslims hate the Jews, 'so what' if a few thousand people get blown to bits every year." "Hey, Pakistan hates India, 'so what' if they nuke each other to oblivian, doesnt affect me." Its simply not alright to hate someone because of their religion, their race, their ancestry, or any other characteristic. Peter - nicely stated.

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06-22-2006, 08:39 AM

Posted By: James FeaginIt's also not alright to walk around with a chip on your shoulder. I'm a member of a group that has a history of persecution (against that is)but I'm not so hyper-sensitive that I think that every joking comment is antagonistic toward me. Throwing around terms like "anti-semite" is a catch all that must be used responsibly. Otherwise, it belittles true cases of racial and religious bigotry.

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06-22-2006, 08:43 AM

Posted By: jay behrensInuit is a tribe, just like Lakota is tribe. Eskimo does a pretty good job of covering any native north of the artic circle just like Native American covers anyone that is of indiginous decent of NA, which also covers the Eskimos. This thread really needs to be locked down. Jay Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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06-22-2006, 08:46 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesI fully disagree with your statement Josh. It is alright to hate someone because of their religion, their race, their ancestry, or any other characteristic. Feelings, preferences, likes and dislikes, even when extreme are ok. Actions and in some cases inaction are potentially wrong. For anyone who thinks the laws of this country should be even more restrictive, I wish you well, but I do not agree. If you are speaking of morals or simple good judgement, I will agree that most hatred is an error. It is counterproductive, and otherwise disadvantageous from virtually all respects. However, this forum has seen enough on this subject, in my estimation. And after viewing a rebuttal of these statements, if deemed warranted, I will not participate in further posts in this thread.

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06-22-2006, 08:51 AM

Posted By: JimBHey, "so what" if Osama Bin Laden and his buddies hate America. Gil, in case you did not realize it, 6 million Jews were murdered in our (or that of our parents or grandparents at a minimum) lifetimes for nothing other than being Jewish. And if you pick up a history book, you will realize that is not an isolated incident. It is hard to believe that in 2006 people who presumably do not consider themselves anti-semitic or racist are arguing on the other side of this one. It just amplifies the point that these sorts of things still need to be brought out and to our attention. JimB Peter, I agree with you completely.

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06-22-2006, 08:52 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzI agree completely with Gil. I also believe this thread has run its course.

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06-22-2006, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethIn what possible sense is it "OK" to hate someone because of their religion, ethnicity, or skin color? None is suggesting that anyone's private thoughts can or should be regulated, but to suggest that it's "OK" is to me morally repugnant.

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06-22-2006, 09:13 AM

Posted By: Josh K.wow, this thread really is telling. James - If you were referring to me, I am anything but hyper-sensitive and do not walk around with a chip on my shoulder - I made no judgments about this thread originally other than to say how it could be interpreted and inviting Mark to respond. He has not which leads me to believe that his post was not innocent or well-intentioned. Gil/Todd - You are free to hold any opinion you wish - whether similar to my own or not. However, Im just speechless over the lack of thought/reason that seems to have gone into those opinions.

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06-22-2006, 09:22 AM

Posted By: andy beckerjosh, i agree with you 100%. gil, are you kidding??? "It is alright to hate someone because of their religion, their race, their ancestry, or any other characteristic." i hope you don't teach that to your kids or anyone else's.

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06-22-2006, 09:26 AM

Posted By: Bob CA Randy Newman song from the eary 80's comes to mind here. Newman wasn't dissing short people anymore than "All in the Family" promoted racism. It was was exposing the prejudices that people have and allowing us, through laugher, to look at ourselves and how we judge people. That is what the song (and I believe the initial thread here) is about and nothing more. Have all you folks forgotten about laughing at ourselves and our prejudices? Perspective people, perspective. Life is short; eat your dessert first!

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06-22-2006, 10:47 AM

Posted By: leonNot sure what the score is but I don't feel this thread is detrimental to the welfare of the board, yet. When I feel it becomes that way then it will be locked down. For a reference these kinds of threads get to run about 2.5 to 3 days, historically....but I reserve the right to change my mind <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. I do think the original post/comment was more of a joke than some wild fetched scheme or majorly racist remark...I do think it was a back handed swipe at the collecting habits of a few on the board but still not as offensive as other things in daily life (that doesn't make it completely right and I am not saying that)... .....regards

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06-22-2006, 10:51 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzInvariably these types of discussions devolve into claims of moral outrage and implied superiority, often sprinkled with notions of "us against them", persecution and self-righteousness. This one is no different. Please go back and read this thread through. A rather unfunny attempt at parody was posted. More than a day and a half goes by and JoAnn remarks that it appears to be a parody of people who collect cards of Jewish players. More than 24 hours after the intial post, Josh "thinks" she may be onto something, and that the remark might be anti-semetic. No outrage, just basically puzzlement. Explanations are offered by others, but the ball has begun rolling and the poster is demanded to appear and explain himself. A vigil is kept--so many hours have passed and no response, never mind that nobody apeared bothered about the damn thing for two days. Break out the tar and feathers. Those who find it overblown are reminded of how we need to be more sensitive, and, to the extent we disagree with a certain point of view, we are told our opinions are devoid of intelligent thought. All of this on a flippin baseball card forum!!!! What happened to the "Show me your e92 Nadja's" or other threads that unite, not divide us here? I misspoke when I said I agreed "completely" with Gil, since I loathe speaking in absolutes or overbroad generalities, and since I cannot presume to know precisley what he meant or intended. I do not think it is OK to hate someone based on skin color, etc., in some moral or objectified sense. I do agree with Gil that such hatred is not morally right and is counterproductive--read the entire post, knee-jerks. It also may not be acted upon or taught or others, as, again, such would be morally wrong and counterproductive. It is OK, in my view, to have thoughts of hatred for certain classes of people without feeling the need to conclude that you are a hopeless loser who needs to be straightened out by the enlightened and usually self-proclaimed thought police. It is a recognition of one's flaws, in my view, and does not mean that one should act upon it, promote it and try not to change. Right now, I have a serious dislike of certain middle easterners. I know it is wrong and irrational, I would never espouse or act upon it and would come to their defense if I saw them (or anyone else) being treated unjustly. I am not proud of my feelings nor do I fully understand them, but I know I am a decent person who does not need to be lectured. I am working on it, and that's OK. I regret if my opinions in this thread offend anyone, but I will only say that once. I am what I am, I believe what I believe, and I'm moving forward, not backward.

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06-22-2006, 11:22 AM

Posted By: JasonMine is now the 72nd post (I didn't want to be completely left out), and this has nothing to do with vintage card collecting, or even baseball. We should put this to bed, although the sheer length of the thread has become somewhat humorous in and of itself. How about starting a baseball debate, such as whether or not my beloved Chicago Cubs should be kicked out of Major League baseball for not fielding a championship team in 100 years, come 2008?

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06-22-2006, 11:25 AM

Posted By: Josh AdamsI second that motion. Go Go White Sox 2005 World Series Champions!

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06-22-2006, 11:35 AM

Posted By: George H. Counter"...It is alright to hate someone because of their religion, their race, their ancestry, or any other characteristic." Gil, you're doing a FINE job defending your point of view... Thanks! Leon, please DELETE this thread once and for all!

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06-22-2006, 11:40 AM

Posted By: ChadYou're taking that quote out of context. I take him to mean that it's prefectly LEGAL to hate people, and it is. Nobody is arguing that it's good, or ok to hate or be prejudiced. Gil certainly isn't and it's not right to characterize his posts as such. He's arguing against knee jerk censorship. This thread has become very shrill, but I hope Leon doesn't delete it. We are who we are, afterall, and this forum is a record of our thoughts, for good and bad. --Chad

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06-22-2006, 12:43 PM

Posted By: warshawlaw"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that." NATIONAL BROTHERHOOD WEEK (Lyrics by Tom Lehrer) Oh, the white folks hate the black folks, And the black folks hate the white folks. To hate all but the right folks Is an old established rule. But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek. It's fun to eulogize The people you despise, As long as you don't let 'em in your school. Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks, And the rich folks hate the poor folks. All of my folks hate all of your folks, It's American as apple pie. But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic. Step up and shake the hand Of someone you can't stand. You can tolerate him if you try. Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics, And the Catholics hate the Protestants, And the Hindus hate the Moslems, And everybody hates the Jews. But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week, It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week. Be nice to people who Are inferior to you. It's only for a week, so have no fear. Be grateful that it doesn't last all year! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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06-23-2006, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesI realize that I indicated that I would not revisit this subject, however, it appears to me that from your response to my input, I must be alone in the belief that hatred due to the characteristics of specific individuals is not only justified, it is warranted. As some of you indicated, my point of view must not be well thought out. It is my contention that your point of view is not well thought out. Please feel free to be so enraged right now that you are no longer capable of thought nor reading, and begin drafting your tirade of rebuttal without hearing me out (again). I fully know that the good book says that one should love his enemies, and turn the other cheek. Well, I have found that when dealing with bullies an approach alternate to hoping that they will soon grow tired of hitting you, is to let them know that they have been in a battle (you will not always win, but others will be easaier prey for the bullies). And persons with the following characteristics I currently hate, solely based on those characteristics, and I plan to continue to hate, are summarized below. This list is no where near complete. Bullies who view the US Postal System as an excellent vehicle to distribute loose Anthrax. Bullies who are proven pedophiles. The same applies to drug dealers, prostitutes and others whose primary function in our society is harmful to the society's general well being. Bullies who use our airplanes to crash into our buildings. This list is long (and it does not differ from that of many of you who pretend to not hate) . Id like to tell you more about myself, how I raised my children and address other curiousities which were voiced, but I really do not think that anyone cares. If you do, please e-mail me. Chad was correct in his assessment. My thoughts were primarily focused on the legality and the continual erosion of my rights. But I also do not contend that I am hate free. I appreciate those who already have thought this thru and have reached whatever conclusion. I always applaud opposing thought out opinions. Its Only Gil

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06-24-2006, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Im sorry, but hating someone because they crash planes into our buildings isnt exactly like hating someone because they are Jewish. Further, those very people you hate crashed those planes into our buildings for no other reason than they believe America is a bully and they hate Americans. So I guess by your logic the 9/11 terrorist were justified in their hatred and actions as well - for they were merely letting us know that we were in for a fight.

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06-24-2006, 09:06 AM

Posted By: V117CollectorFreaky Friday!

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06-24-2006, 09:06 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesGo4It Josh! Twist my statements to create whatever comedy routine pleases you. I too will sit back and enjoy your creations.

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06-24-2006, 09:26 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Please tell me how I twisted your words: "I must be alone in the belief that hatred due to the characteristics of specific individuals is not only justified, it is warranted." "I have found that when dealing with bullies an approach alternate to hoping that they will soon grow tired of hitting you, is to let them know that they have been in a battle" "And persons with the following characteristics I currently hate, solely based on those characteristics, and I plan to continue to hate, are summarized below. This list is no where near complete." "Bullies who use our airplanes to crash into our buildings." I have not twisted anything - Ive made an analogy using your logic - just from the opposite point of view.

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06-24-2006, 09:37 AM

Posted By: andy beckeri thought this was dead and buried too. gil, i don't think any of us are questioning your legal right to hate someone. we are questioning your moral and ethic makeup which would lead you to express those feeling in a public forum. in my book, it is not ok to hate someone for no other reason than his/her nationality, religon, ethnic background, hair color, etc..... i do not think josh twisted your words, go back and re-read them yourself. and gil, many times after reading your cryptic posts i find myself thinking...."i want to party with that guy!" this time you articulated your feelings (at least well enough for me to somewhat understand them) and i think you are off-base. all any of us asked was for this marcus to come back and explain the intent of his thread. he still has not, and i'm not sure why anyone is defending that type of troll.

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06-24-2006, 09:51 AM

Posted By: James FeaginOf course it is illegal in this country to "hate" someone. Due to bogus "hate crime" legislation, the state gets to judge the intents of your heart in the commission(sp?) of a crime. If they judge that you have committed a "thought" crime in addition to another crime, your penalty is harsher. Never mind this is seperate and unequal and "protected" groups get all the benefits. Nevertheless, it can be illegal to "hate" someone.

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06-24-2006, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Andrew ParksGod hated Esau AND chose the Jews as His people. How does that fit into all of this?

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06-24-2006, 10:25 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesJosh, I am at a loss as to how my statements can be extrapolated to the following conclusion: So I guess by your logic the 9/11 terrorist were justified in their hatred and actions as well - for they were merely letting us know that we were in for a fight. There is no evidence which establishes that motivation as defense against a bully anymore than there is evidence that their motivation was our support of Israel. In this game, guessing is deadly. And Andy: I never had intent to defend Marcus. The conclusion which I drew was that it is impossible to draw a conclusion of his motivation based on the words which he typed. And I assure you that characteristics such as nationality, religon, ethnic background, hair color, financial status, etc..... have no meaning to me, while characteristics such as sexual preferences, questionable activities and the like could indeed make a significant difference regarding my feelings toward an individual. And James, it certainly does reap a more significant punishment if you commit a crime which can be related to hate. But the key there is that you have commited a crime. Why don't we all just let this drop? I do not think that there is real controversy here. Then again, it is kinda fun! And as far as airing my hatred for the world to see: I do not believe that my deep dark secret is now out of the bag. I actually believe that we all hate those who can and may harm us severely at any time. Esau = asuy

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06-24-2006, 10:32 AM

Posted By: warshawlawIt is illegal to assault someone or kill them or whatever. Doing so out of racial or other animus is an enhancement to the penalties. You can hate whoever you want, you just can't kick their asses because of it. Gil: I used to hate lots of people: Palestinians, white supremacists, my opposing counsels in hard-fought cases. Then I figured it out. Hating someone, even your sworn enemy, coarsens, degrades and lowers you to the level of an animal. Hatred leads to irrational personal decisions and bad choices in public policy. It inevitably destroys justice and morality leaving in its place only an ever-escalating chain of violence. It dehumanizes the subject of the hatred, ultimately justifying the most heinous, barbarous acts against them. If I hate you, I cannot engage in any kind of dialogue with you under any circumstances because I have already defined you as anathema to my existence. Instead, I must do anything possible to destroy you. If the Allies hated the Axis countries, they would have had no choice other than to wipe them from the face of the earth, not seek their surrender and re-emergence into the community of nations. How does hating them help? And if they hate us and we hate them, how can we ever expect to reach any kind of end to the violence, other than by annihilating them and everyone who sympathizes with them? No, your path leads nowhere good.

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06-24-2006, 10:33 AM

Posted By: Kevin CummingsOK, finally a baseball connection..... Lifetime stats for Walter Esau Beall: <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beallwa01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/beallwa01.shtml</a>

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06-24-2006, 10:35 AM

Posted By: steve fGil, I wish you'd simply be frank, but I got it now... You believe noone else is a threat to your way of life but terrorists (neos, militia etc), lesbians and gay men... Or perhaps you're post ain't clear.

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06-24-2006, 10:42 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesAdam, I know you to be right. However, I visualize my daughters being thirty years younger than they are, and a pedophile moving into our area. A clear and present danger to young daughters. Hurray for daddies everywhere (and mommies too).

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06-24-2006, 10:48 AM

Posted By: James Feagin"It is illegal to assault someone or kill them or whatever. Doing so out of racial or other animus is an enhancement to the penalties. You can hate whoever you want, you just can't kick their asses because of it." I fail to see how that isn't even close. It is illegal to hate someone when it is COUPLED with a violent act. The penalties are harsher because it is also a "thought crime" as well. It is unequal because some groups are protected, while others aren't. On the 11 o'clock news last night I saw a video where a young African-American man committed what could be construed as Aggravated Assault on a young White male during a basketball game. Nothing was mentioned of it being a "hate" crime, just an assault. If the tables were turned, it would have been automatically deemed a "hate" crime. Could'nt all crime be deemed as such? Why must we legislate thoughts or give tougher penalties for presumed intent? As for this thread, I know the original poster must be sitting back in his easy chair with a huge grin over all the fuss and knee-jerk reactions and assumptions he created.

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06-24-2006, 10:49 AM

Posted By: andy beckeri guess ozzie guillen is now visiting the vintage board...

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06-24-2006, 11:10 AM

Posted By: Josh K.James, Im not a criminal lawyer, but there has to be evidence of intent based on race etc. before something becomes a hate crime. A crime against someone of a different color or religion isnt enough - however, if you do it in a white hood (and by hood I mean hat, not ones place of residence), it might be. Further, and one of the criminal lawyers can correct me if Im wrong, but I believe if there is evidence that a white person was assaulted due to the color of their skin, it too could be deemed a hate crime. Finally, what Adam was trying to explain is that you cannot be convicted simply for hating someone - that is not illegal. You are convicted of the crime (ie the assault, etc). Once convicted, the sentencing takes into account any aggravating factors - one of which is a hate based crime. Thus, you might get 20 years instead of 10 years but youre going to jail for the crime itself either way.