Overrated?

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Are there any cards out there that you feel might be a little overrated in terms of "rarity" or value?<br /><br />I would vote for T206 Smith Chicago and Boston.<br />I agree the card is less common than pure commons in the set, but I don't think it's a tough card to find by any means.<br /><br />Any others from this set or different issues?<br /><br />Rob

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>With regards to Red Kleinow (catching,) the Boston variety is far more commmon than the New York version. The New York variety should be the one that is considered more difficult.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1148519701.JPG"> <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1148519766.JPG"> <br /><br />Patrick

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>1933 Goudey #3 Hugh Critz<br /><br />Thought as a tough card in high grade til a slew of PSA 7s showed up in auctions over the past year and a half.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>How 'bout the T206 Wagner? There are 100 or so of them. Yet the card goes for 1.2 million in an 8 holder? Or even 100k for a beater.<br /><br />There's a slew of cards that are rarer with HOFers on them. The hype is why that card is overvalued.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>You mean a trimmed* PSA 8 Wagner.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>cmoking, that is exactly why EVERY low pop high grade card is overrated. Until such day comes that every single card known to exist is slabbed, low pop-high grade cards are going to overrated, overhyped and overpriced pieces of cardboard.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Jay, I disagree. I think there are some legitimate low pop cards in high grade that really are super tough in high grade and will continue to be. For those that care about high grade cards (and I know many here could care less), the difficulty is figuring out which ones will still be tough after the years go by and which ones will see their pop reports go up to a more normal card in a particular set.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>T207 Loudermilk. Tough but not one of the "Big 3" in the set. I would place Donlin, Rath, Sweeney or Downey as nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 behind Lewis and Ward Miller, in that order.

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>..can you expound upon *trimmed PSA 8 Wagner? I certainly agree that is by far and away the most overrated, overhyped card out there but I dont think it is trimmed.

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Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>T206 Wagner<br />PSA 7 & 8 T206 Commons<br />E 90-1 Joe Jackson(all shoeless joe's cards for that matter)<br />

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>If you want to search it out, it's here somewhere. It's a great card, but it is trimmed.<br /><br />--Chad<br /><br />As for overrated, I think the Old Judges that have sharp corners and borders but faded images are overrated.

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>and i really dont know enough about it to debate anything but my first thought was why has the card sold for so many astronomical figures in the past? Certainly the ones who are buying the card dont believe it is trimmed. Also, did someone at PSA admit to it being trimmed? If not, who are the ones who are deeming it trimmed? Just some thoughts and probably a lot of my own ignorance.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>hi noel,<br />the card is trimmed. no question. it was oversized at one time and was cut down to standard size.<br /><br />previous owners of the card have stated that they did not care if it was trimmed, as it was still the nicest wagner out there...and is an advertising piece.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>This is the first i have heard of it...maybe it is just the novelty now. I have never heard of any fallout with PSA through all of this though. This was only the crown jewel of baseball cards and now the prominent grader/authenticator could not deem it trimmed or not? How many others are out there? I think i would rather have a beater than one that was trimmed. Speaking of beaters and overhyped cards, i remember going to a Memorial Day weekend show in SF a few years ago and seeing a Wagner in a PSA 1. The card had a bite (about 1/5 of the card) taken out of the corner along with multiple creases for the bargain price of $125,000! I remember thinking to myself, im not sure what i would rather own, a nice Jose Canseco card or something like that!

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>Gretzky and McCall almost didn't buy it because of the controservy swirling around it.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Andrew, Jay and Robert -<br /><br />Good choices:<br /><br />T206 Wagner<br />Low Pop High Grade commons <br />OJs with sharp corners and crappy images<br /><br />I would like to add to that list: one of a kind cards that really don't have a set designation, for example the Reccius Wagner. I think that the card is awesome and attractive and probably worth some decent cash but I just think that one of a kind cards are too exclusive. Now on the other hand, if there were other known Reccius cigar cards of other players then I guess that would change things a bit. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion and that the thread is asking for our opinions - if you disagree, then with all due respect, that's your opinion. <br /><br />Edited to add: I guess if I read the entire initial post I would have to place this in the categorey of "too expensive" rather than rare because one of a kind is about as rare as rare can be.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I have heard the rumor for years about the PSA 8 Wagner being trimmed. Does anybody have any actual proof? Or is this a Karl Rove type situation where if a lie gets told enough times eventually they will believe it?<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Put it this way, there used to be an oversized Wagner withh a Piedmont back. This card seems to have disappeared and the PSA8 appeared after it's disappearance. Coincidence? I think not. Until someone produces that oversized Piedmont Wagner, doubt anyone will consider the PSA8 Wagner unaltered.<br /><br />Noel, that sounds like that Wagner I got offered in 1982 for $3000. My whole collection wasn't worth that much back then, but I did try and to scarpe up the money for it without any success.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JimB<br /><br />Jay B is correct in what he says....but if you don't want to take his word<br />then do a Search for Bill Heitman. Bill told us the entire story behind the<br />Gretzky-Gidwitz Wagner card in an excellent Thread about 6 months ago. Bill<br />had first hand knowledge of it.<br /><br />And, for whatever it is worth, I and several other members of this Forum had<br />seen this very same card in its "raw" state back in the mid-80's at the Philly<br /> Show in Willow Grove. And, upon close observation the consensus of opinion<br />was that it had been trimmed.<br /><br />How many times do we have to go over this story.....if Bill Heitman tells us<br />the story......it's done, it's over with.<br /><br />Jay B<br /><br />I also agree with your observation regarding "pop" reports. I've been collecting<br />T206's for a long, long time and I think these reports are misleading. I have<br /> numerous facts to back this up: but, I'm not going to bore everyone at this<br /> point with them. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Least we not forget - "Remember the Alamo"<br /><br />A hundred years from now people will be saying that all the talk of the card being trimmed was a bunch of rumors... <br /><br />"Remember the PSA8 Wagner"

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jay and Ted,<br />I am not claiming this is not true. I would just like to see some evidence rather than simply heresay. Did either of you actually see an oversized Wagner with a Piedmont back? Have you ever seen a picture of it?<br />JimB<br /><br />Edited to add:<br />Does anybody know who did the trimming? Or who owned the card when it was trimmed?

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Ted, I can certainly say you wouldnt be boring me with reports of how the pop reports are skewed. I would be very interested on how this works. I did get my undergraduate in business and learned more than i ever wanted to know about how numbers can be morphed into anything in an attempt to "prove" a point. I do rely on these reports however when i factor in cost of a card and how much i would be willing to pay.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Noel,<br />Thousands of cards have been cracked out of their holders and either resubmitted to the same grading company in hopes of a better grade, or crossed over to another grading company. Either way, the same card is listed multiple times in pop reports.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Thanks Jim. I guess the only way to account for some of these is to hope the original owner sends the flip back in. Kind of scary to think some of the low pops may in all actuality be much lower.

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Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>The card is real and unaltered for all practical purposes.<br /><br />Every single owner who has actually had the card in hand believes its real, PSA believes its real , Mastro believes its real.<br /><br />If SGC would have graded the card most people here would no speak negative about it.<br /><br />Actually i am pretty sure that if SGC was asked to do a crossover on this card they would happily do so and GAI would as well.<br /><br />The owner came out on the PSA boards and said that he has been offered over 2 mill for it.<br /><br />Im not saying that the card has never been touched ...im just saying it doesnt matter.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If the altered Wagner had been graded by SGC we would still be saying the same thing. Just because most people are pro-SGC around here does not mean we blindly follow SGC down the primrose path.<br /><br />The owners of the altered Wagner really didn't care if the card is unaltered or not. Their main interest lies in owning THE marque card in the hobby. Sadly, THE marque card in the hobby is altered.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with Rick in that I assume the owners are well aware of what they are buying. Value-wise, whether or not the card is au natural is beside the point.<br /><br />However, I also beleive what matters is what something is, not what people beieve or say it is. Everyone beleiving a lie doesn't make it the truth.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I don't need as much proof as JimB does. Sometimes it isn't easy to filter out the truth when reading posts in a public forum, but in this case, I think it is pretty clear based on the comments made by several. <br /><br />Jay wrote: "Sadly, THE marque card in the hobby is altered."<br /><br />I agree - Sad.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Lindholme</b><p>I feel that this thread really drifted off the original thought...and maybe that's okay but here are a couple cards that I think hit the thread's intent :<br /><br />~~E95 Ty Cobb (He's crazy looking to me!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />~~E106, E92 Honus Wagner etc.(strange pose which looks nothing like Hans)<br /><br />~~E90-1 Cy Young (Cleveland) see above<br /><br />~~Any E91 card (although not highly rated,these are terrible)<br /><br />~~1912 Boston Garter (obviously rare, but c'mon...they are men in their underwear & GARTERS!)<br /><br />~~B18 Blankets (why make so many when they all kinda look alike?)<br /><br />~~Off-center but uncreased Colgan's Chips<br /><br />~~All the York Caramels that I don't have...give them to me and you'll feel better about having such overrated cards in your collection.<br /><br />Happy Threadin'<br />Familytoad<br />Brian L<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I would call the Old Judges in high grade, but with "shadows" for player, overgraded but not overrated. Overrated might be the whole registry game...but that is ONLY my opinion. It certainly has helped the hobby so I think that is a good aspect of it. Overrated could be T210's 6 months ago...... As for the Wagner, I have had too many very well respected folks tell me the same story not to believe it. Some of these folks are hobby icons that won't say this stuff publicly for various reasons. They have told me they have personally seen the card before and after. From what I know, and I had never seen the card prior to the "surgery", I would think there is a 99% chance it has been trimmed. The current owner came on the old FullCount board (this one's predecessor) and gave a very elegant statement about his thoughts, in a thread devoted (if any of them back then were devoted) to the card. He basically said that he didn't care if it was altered, didn't think it was, and used it to promote goodwill in the hobby. I applauded him for his statement and his philosophy on the subject. Nuff said....regards

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>How about this: Does anybody here know anybody that saw the card when it was oversized? Just to clear up my perspective, I presume there is some truth to the rumor, but I would just like to hear the slightest bit of evidence to substantiate it. Is this a case where nobody wants to piss someone off by pointing fingers?<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Like I said...<br /><br />They have told me they have personally seen the card before and after.<br /><br /><br />email me and I will tell you more.....regards

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Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>Leon ...would any of the people who told you about the card also be against grading in general ?<br /><br />It seems like a lot of people who bash this card are also decidely against Grading ...and they take joy in bashing the most high profile slabbed card.<br /><br />The reality is that once a vintage card is graded by any of the big 3 ...the card then becomes real and unaltered.<br /><br />there have only been a few ( expensive cards) ever to have been bought back by the grading companies ..they wont admit a mistake unless its quite obvious.<br /><br />It then becomes a battle between a collector a mjor grading comapny to prove wether a card is unaltered or not.<br /><br />Its all an opinion in the end ... but a powerful one.<br /><br />Im not crazy or blind...and i personally try to educate myself as much as possible everyday when it comes to cards.<br /><br />Like i said ...if a card gets into one of the big 3 ...then it might as well always been real.<br /><br />just the way it is.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Rick, I don't beleive PSA advocates even beleive that one. Go over to the CU board and you will see PSA collectors who are willing to point out when PSA has made a mistake. I have seen SGC collectors on this board point out when SGC has made mistakes or they otherwise disagree with their grades.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Yes and no, to your question. They are against grading in general but have adapted and know that high end cards need to be graded to get the best prices.... I am sure it's not that they are against grading companies when they are talking about this card. As already said, Bill Heitman, had first hand knowledge and came on this board and discussed it....

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There is no way PSA will acknowledge that there is a problem with this card since it is THE marque card in the hobby. It would be a major blow their standing in the hobby to admit they slabbed an abviously trimmed card. As with every other major mistake PSA makes, they do their best to sweep it under the rug and try to make it go away without having to do anything.<br /><br />I would love to someone own the card and submit it to SGC and see what would happen. It would take someone with a lot of cash that wouldn't mind taking a serious financial hit. Though I think it wouldn't be too large because there is just too much history behind this particular card.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>We have to realize that most contributors to this board and to CU' s boards are experienced collectors ...maybe not in time put in but defenitly in knowledge and keeping up with current events.<br /><br />What % do we make up of the rest of hobby in terms of people?<br /><br />Everything that is discussed here its absorbed in real time...how many members here can simply read a word like WIWAG , SGC olbermann , etc...and pretty much know.<br /><br />what i am saying its that the market at large simply will ignore signs of tampering as long as the card its graded.<br /><br />This is a reality.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Still doesn't change the reality that the card is altered. Grading services serve a purpose, but when they fail miserabley at that purpose, they should be taken to task for it and be held accountable. Sadly, the vast majority of people are sheep will just go blindly along with whatever a grading company says. That is not good. Your own knowledge should be as good or better than slabbers, or at least working towards that goal, otherwise, you have no business spending huge sums of money on cards, raw or slabbed.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>I think it is safe to assume that all grading have made mistakes. But a mistake of this magnitude would seem to have taken a near inside job. Imagining the numbers of professional graders who looked at, it is staggering that not one could have caught this? I have no knowledge regarding identification of a trimmed card but apart from those who have first hand knowledge of this, who would be better qualified to identify a trimmed card than the professional grading companies? Jay, i too would love to see it submitted to SGC but unfortunately it probably wont happen in our lifetime.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>the card was the first ever graded by psa. i'm not saying that they knowingly graded a trimmed card, but i am saying that by grading THAT card psa got a huge boost of free publicity.<br /><br />rick, whomever thinks the fact that a card is slabbed makes it an unaltered card....better do a reality check.<br /><br />you guys are funny....that card is not getting crossed in the card's lifetime....let alone our lifetime.<br /><br />what ted says above is true, bill heitman has told us of the card's history....no reason to doubt him.<br /><br />lastly, i have been and still am a psa advocate (i like sgc too)....but that doesn't change the fact that the wagner in question was cut down. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Rick, PSA once mislabelled a T206 Heinie Wagner card as a Honus Wagner (card was T206 Heine Wagner, PSA label said it was a T206 Honus Wagner). Would you pay $19,000 for this card, considering $19,000 would be a steal for a T206 Honus Wagner? If you were selling this card on eBay, would you represent the card as a T206 Honus Wagner or a T206 Heinie Wagner that was mislabelled?

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The more I read the posts on this Thread....the more I realized we have been<br />down this road before. About 6 months ago when Scott Ingold posted his Thread<br />regarding the "10.5 Mill lawsuit" which garnered approx. 140 posts, Bill Heitman<br /> provided us with some great insight into this "Wagner card".<br /><br />And, posted in this Thread was none other than Rick's infamous statement.....<br /><br />"Some oldtimers have become gators..some will die as hobby dinosours (sp)"<br /><br />Just check-out Page 43 on this Forum's listing to read all about it.<br /><br />Goodness, we have gone thru this "B..S" months ago with the same character.<br />Do we have to relive it again......GIVE US A BREAK ! !<br />

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Obviously wasn't my intention for this thread to go into t206 wagner territory. Talk about boring......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>For those interested in the thread about the Wagner T206:<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1131565466/last-1132579205/lawsuit+against+psa+for+10.5+million+awarded+to" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1131565466/last-1132579205/lawsuit+against+psa+for+10.5+million+awarded+to</a>........

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>I read the thread and with this statement, Heitman lost me: "As electing George W. Bush proved, they haven't necessarily changed for the better. "<br /><br />What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

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Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>David <br />I wouldnt buy a mislabeled card for more than what its actually worth ...but i bet it could sell ...to someone ..such is the power of plastic.<br /><br />If you read all my posts in the other thread as well as this one you will see that im not as pro-grading as you think.<br /><br />Jay<br />I always argue for personal responsability and note the importance of grading companies as just tools to use when buying cards.<br /><br />Ted<br /><br />I apologized for my comments in that other thread...I try to never edit what i write. But if it still bothers i will be happy to remove that comment.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Rick<br /><br />Heck No.....I don't want you to go back and erase your statement. It resulted<br />in a bunch of us "oldtimers" actually having a few laughs over it and even<br /> assigning various dinosaur names to each other.<br /><br />However, you have to get over this idea of yours that these Prof. Grading Cos.<br />are infallible; and, that thee rest of us "dinosaurs" are adverse to slabbed<br /> cards.<br />This is not really the way we feel about Graded cards.<br /><br />I would like to know....how did you "survive" in this hobby before cards were<br /> graded ?<br /><br />T-Rex TED

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>No mail order, ever, except from people I knew would accept returns.