So What's More Rare?

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Posted By: <b>Donald Johnson</b><p>As I was admiring Leon's D303 Mother's Bread Bender, I was wondering...how does that set compare in rarity to the T208 Cullivan's Firesides? Are they comparable? Is one more desirable/expensive than the other? What do folks think the total # of these cards are remaining in the 10's/100's? I know of one complete T208 set. Does anyone own a complete set of these Mother's Bread D303's?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>T208 is much tougher, but I couldn't give you a ratio of how tough.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>agreed IMO...on the order of 4-5 times i should think

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Posted By: <b>Donald Johnson</b><p>So - around 5 copies of the average T208 and around 16-20 of the Mother's Bread D303's?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Who completed the t208 set? I know a few people who are close but even in the 80s, I wasn't aware of anyone with a complete set.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>The T208 complete set is known, D303 Mothers set is far from known. Id say there is far less than 10 of ea. Mothers cards, and most likely closer to 3-5 if that. I have seen slightly less T208s on the market, but I think its because they are just sold less frequently. The T208s are more in demand because they are a "T" card. For a long time the Mothers cards were thought to be just a back variation for D303 cards, then for a couple years collectors thought they were related to the Tango cards, but its now known to be a completely different set with players not found with General Baking backs or Tango backs.<br /><br />Ive owned 3 D303 Mothers, and at the time they were all uncataloged. I have never owned a T208 but mainly because of the price.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Only from what I have seen, from being addicted only the last 10 years or so, I have seen about 30-40 D303 Mothers Bread cards (about 18 of those in the last Mastro) and about 3-5 T208's for sale. I think the T208's are 7x-10x as tough....again, these are just my observations.....

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Posted By: <b>Donald Johnson</b><p>Nice observations Leon; wonder how much the disparity is a function of availability on the market vs actual rarity as fkw noted. The fact that the lot on Mastro was a distinct lot of 18 (all different btw) solidifies those numbers significantly. No telling how many times the other 10-20 you observed were sold and resold in that timeframe. I would personally estimate the population of these Mother's Bread cards between 5 and 10 copies myself. Of the 18 examples sold in Mastro, probably a third were uncatalogged prior to this sale. But then again, who knows what fantastic collections are squirrelled away!

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The lot in Mastro had 14 D303 Mother's Bread cards. According to the Mastro description, only 18 Mother's Bread subjects were known prior to the auction. Four of the fourteen in the lot were uncatalogued, so I guess that makes it 22 known subjects now.<br /><br />In comparison, we know that all 18 T208 cards exist and there are a few near sets out there. In fact, our own Jay Behren owned a large lot of Cullivan Firesides in the 1980s didn't he?

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>I own one of each, as types, but haven't really seen many others or paid attention to relative scarcity. My vague impression is that both are very tough, but that D303s are easier to find than T208s, and Leon's numbers seem to back that up.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The ones I had were the only ones I ever saw for sale in 80s. I knew a number of collectors that owned t208s, but no one was selling and the 6 I found were new to the hobby at the time.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>familair with T208<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1148174579.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>I know of one complete T208 set and one very near complete set. I would agree that T208s are much more difficult to find singles of. There have been many D303 singles auctioned this year alone and not one T208 has come up for public auction. So if you were looking for just a type of a D303 or a T208, the D303 would be much easier to find imo.

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>I think that this is a tough comparison to make. I think that you see more Mother's cards on the market because people mainly only want one as a type card. Most people that are working on D303 sets do not care what back they have.<br /><br />T208 Fireside cards more sought after by collectors and they rarely offer them for sale. <br /><br />There are at least three T208 sets known to exist. The Copeland sale had one and referenced another. Plus, I know of a set that was completed in the last five years.<br /><br />No complete set of D303 Mother's exists. No one knows how many cards are in a Mother's set. New cards are being discovered to this day. Beside's the last group in the Mastro's sale, does anybody know of a significant collection (10 or more) of Mother's?<br /><br />While many of the D303 Mother's cards are the only known examples, there are at least three examples known of each T208 Fireside. <br /><br />Just some food for thought.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Donald Johnson</b><p>Zach,<br /><br />I would agree with you on regular D303's; what we are talking about are the Mother's Bread backed "D303's". Many folks thinks these cards are misnomered and should have their own designation as there are several cards that exist with the Mother's Bread back that do not exist in the standard D303 set; Hap Felsch being one for example.

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>Thanks Don, I didn't read through the post well enough. I still think T208s are tougher though, and far more popular. A D303 Mothers Bread Marquard in an SGC 30 failed to get a bid on ebay for $2,300. In the same grade a T208 hofer would sell for multiple times that amount.<br />

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Dan M. how many D303 Mothers do you have?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I have seen 30 or more WITH the mothers bread back and <br />maybe 4-6 offered T208's. Iam a dissapointed loser of <br />the elusive T208's . Still want one & have no personal desire for a mother's bread card. TO each their own.<br /><br />I do want a Williams baking though.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If you want to claim that Mother's is rarer because some of the cards in the set only have one known example, than I guess by that rationale, e104-3s are rarer than t208s since the complete checklist is unknown and a number of the cards only known example. Comparing complete sets is also bad way to compare rarity since there are far more Mother's cards in the set than the mere 18 cards that exist in the t208 set. Even if you get generous and say there are 10 of each t208, that is only 180 known cards. Theoretically, there are around 75 cards in the Mother's set. Assuming an average of 3 known for each card, that's 225 cards.<br /><br />I would never consider e104-3s rarer than t208s<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>Who made the claim that Mother's were rarer?<br /><br />I just said that it is hard to compare the rarity of the two issues.<br /><br />In terms of absolute number of cards from the issue, I think that more Mother's cards exist.<br /><br />In terms of rarity of individual cards within the set, I think that across the board less examples are know to exist for each Mother's card than for each Fireside.<br /><br />I was just pointing out that the answer depends on how you define the term "rarer."

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Like Wesley said, there are only about 22-23 different Mothers cards known so far (including the 4 uncataloged players from Mastros lot, Ive also seen a Mathewson). <br /><br />The Mothers set is related to but far different than the more common D303 General Baking, or Tango Eggs sets. 1/3rd of the known cards in Mothers are not found with a General Baking back. Of the 18 Mothers that are named in the SCD Catalog, 6 are not found in the D303 General Baking set..... Bressler, Felsch, Louden, Meyer, Morgan, Weaver. And Bressler and Louden are not even found with a Tango or T216 back. <br /><br />I have always been interested in the D303 Mothers cards, ever since reading about them many years back in an old Lew Lipset sales list where it was noted they were far rarer than the recently discovered Tango Eggs cards. The Mothers set is still a mystery, and the cards are far rarer than most of you think. Easily far rarer than Tangos.<br /><br />Its not a good comparison to compare Mothers cards with the T208s because the high value T208s are all in major collections and rarely hit the market. Mothers are traded and sold more frequently. Ive seen some of the same cards sold over and over. <br /><br />IMO<br />T208s should be compared to T215 Pirate, or T214s. <br />D303 Mothers should be compared to Tangos or T216 Mino/Virginia Extra.<br /><br />Who here has more than 6 different examples of Mothers cards?? I think Dan Mckee has a few, but Im not sure how many.<br /><br />My guess is there are less than 100-150 Mothers cards total. <br /><br />Frank

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Sorry, Frank. I'm working from an old big book that lists 75 cards in the set.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I currently have 8 D303 Mothers cards and another, infrequent, board member bought the group in Mastro. I think there's more than 100-150 total....my guess (totally a guess) is twice that many...I think there are many yet to be seen publicly, like the group in Mastro...All that being said I would still use the 4 letter word for them (rare)..If anyone has any spares laying around I could always use more....regards

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Posted By: <b>Donald Johnson</b><p>Awww, come on Leon! That's not very good salesmanship if you ever have to move yours! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Unless you're just upping the #'s so you can buy more cheaper <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Another thing I find myself saying quite a bit is, that everyday I am in the hobby I see stuff I didn't think I would ever see. Just think about the last year and what has come out in public auctions. It's unbelievable....As for the Mothers Bread cards....I wish I could say some semi-educated "guess" of a population, and make the prices go down.....unfortunately....I can't...best regards

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Posted By: <b>Tim S.</b><p>I know someone with 16 different.

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>16 different. Wow!<br /><br />Did this person buy the Mastro group?<br /><br />Anyone know of a larger group out there?

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Posted By: <b>Tim S.</b><p>Yes