test- would you pay more from me graded vs non [Archive]

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04-16-2006, 08:32 AM

Posted By: leonSince there is so much debate about graded vs non graded blah blah blah...I wanted to do a quick test. One thing I have wondered about is "Should I get my "for sale" cards, that are in gd-vg condition, graded?" I am talking about sub $250 cards. I think anything over that is pretty easy and most should be graded, to get the best price. So here's the particular question. Let's say I have a common E92 Dockman in nice gd-vg, on my website. Would you pay more for it to be in an SGC30 or PSA2 holder, than if it wasn't slabbed? Would you pay more than the $12 or so it takes to get it graded, over it being raw? All cards have nice big front and back scans.....

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04-16-2006, 08:40 AM

Posted By: Dan KravitzIf it isn't graded and I do not know the Seller, I will not buy it. I think you might not necessarily get more for the card, but it may sell faster. It just gives the buyer the extra guarantee that the card is legit.

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04-16-2006, 08:42 AM

Posted By: David VarghaLeon, that depends. How have you priced the card? Is it really G or is it VG? Have you already priced it at a VG (or even a VG/EX) price? Raw is a gamble for the seller and the buyer both. If the card is a $200 in SGC 30 and $350 in SGC 40 and I have priced it at $265, I lose as a seller if it comes back at the lower grade and win if it comes back at the higher grade. So to me, the bottom line is are you accurately grading your cards according to SGC's standards or are you fudging a little on the descriptions? But to answer your question, there are many, including me, who will pay more for the assurance that an SGC slab offers. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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04-16-2006, 08:43 AM

Posted By: John SIf I knew and trusted the seller it wouldn't make a difference to me...same price. If I had intentions of moving the card on eBay within the next year or two I would probably pay more for the graded card because my returns would likely be greater.

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04-16-2006, 09:20 AM

Posted By: Charlie O'NealI actually overlook cards that are ungraded. When throwing money out for the cards I enjoy I go after graded ones since in the end there will be no suprises. While you (or any other seller) may state that the card is in Good conditon who's to say that it's not been altered ot trimmed. In the experiences that I have had over the years weither it's a T206 or 2006 if the card has any value at all and is ungraded I assume that any grade associated with that card is over graded. With so many cards that are out there that are actually over graded and people becoming more leary of buying ungraded cards, by selling graded you give they buyer peice of mind and will be able to push your cards out at a faster rate. A good example of over grading: I was in a card shop last year and looking for some T206's and the guy only had one. He pulled it out stating the card was in EX conditon and that he's let it go today for $150. After looking at the card for about 2 sec. I was not interested b/c the back of the card had paper loss that probably would not show up in a scan and there was also a small pencil mark on the back of the card. If he would have sold it on the web he peobably would have been able to sell it in EX condition b/c the defects of the card probably would not show up in a scan. Just thought I would give you my thought process for seeing ungraded cards on the web so you can make your decision. Also to most people $100 is alot of money for an ungraded card. Since it is very easly to get burned these days.

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04-16-2006, 09:55 AM

Posted By: cmokingHow often have you guys heard this following description: "Graded SGC 40, but presents much better than that. If it wasn't for a small paper loss on the back, it would be a SGC 84 card." That's a great way to describe a card and helpful to the buyer. That SGC 40 probably sells for a premium over a regular SGC 40 with rounded corners. However - if it is ungraded, how does a seller actually grade the card? I'd bet it would be more like this: "Card is Near Mint, fantastic looking card. Look at the sharp corners, clear image. There may be some chipping on the back, but it doesn't detract from this Near Mint card at all". Then the buyer gets it, and sends it to SGC and gets it as a SGC 40. That's what buyers are afraid of.

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04-16-2006, 10:13 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI've collected vintage sets card by card, purchasing them advertised as Near Mint. Maybe one in 10 would ever be graded Near Mint by a third party grader. Of course, a graded card would sell for more than the same card raw because the seller, most likely, is trying to make more money rather than less.

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04-16-2006, 10:18 AM

Posted By: Tim NewcombPrevious posters, in their haste to hijack the thread into another celebration of those beautiful hard plastic slabs, have pretty much failed to answer Leon's initial question, which I take to be not a philosophical question but a practical one: Should HE take the trouble to get a bunch of HIS cards graded or not? Sure, buy only graded cards from an unknown seller if you want to. But gimme a break-- if you're buying from Leon (or someone you know), why would you pay more for a graded example? Leon knows how to grade accurately. He's not going to call a G-VG card "Near Mint" or foist a reprint on anyone, or any of the absurd things said by previous posters-- Sorry, I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Anyhow, Leon-- DON'T DO IT! It will make some of us less likely to buy your stuff. And the buyers can always do the slabbing themselves. Tim

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04-16-2006, 10:29 AM

Posted By: David VarghaGeez, it looks like another one of the grumpy old slab-haters has been provoked again. No offense Leon, but I trust SGC more than I do you. I trust them more than me as well. Tim, to play Devil's advocate here, I offer this scenario based upon me being a hypothetical raw-only collector: I would pay more for an SGC VG/EX graded card than Leon's self-described VG/EX card and crack it out. But again Leon, I offer this caveat -- as a seller of low grade cards, you may be risking money if it turns out that SGC is a tougher grader than you are. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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04-16-2006, 10:30 AM

Posted By: AnsonFrom you, I would buy them either way. From the few things I've bought from Leon, I would say all have been accurately described. I wouldn't hesitate, knowing that I'm getting what he says I'm getting. But, that's the difference between the board and Ebay.

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04-16-2006, 10:32 AM

Posted By: bigfishLeon, I prefer to buy cards that are non graded. If I were buying from you I would trust your description and buy it at your price. So, save your money and keep them raw.

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04-16-2006, 10:37 AM

Posted By: LarryI am big supporter of grading also support non grading...All Grading services are too strict regarding blank back cards that have very minor back damage yet they might have nice fronts but without grading services, it would be the wild west. SGC , GAI, and PSA all have a specific service to collectors and dealers and have more knowledge than the lower tier grading services. One importing thing to note..EVERY GRADED CARD NOW IN HOLDERS was at one time raw and ungraded, many came from e bay, so those that only buy graded cards remember that....most reputable sellers sell raw cards that will be gradeable, we cannot guarantee grade but it is urgent to stand the card so it will not have evidence of being trimmed or colored. Also, all 3 services graded trimmed cards yet all 3 three rejected good cards so they are just an opinion and should not be viewed as gospel. If all 2 or 3 major services grade a card similar, I take that as pretty close to the truth.

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04-16-2006, 11:02 AM

Posted By: DaveI wouldn't hesitate to buy from Leon or most of the board members, even if I hadn't done business with them before. But, the members of this board are a small fraction of the available buyers. They don't know the reputation or integrity of Leon or anyone else. So, I would slab away, and sell on ebay.

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04-16-2006, 11:11 AM

Posted By: JoannI say no - don't get them graded. Third party grading has an important place in the anonymous and arms-length transactions of internet trading. But if it is someone that you have reason to trust and/or has a decent return policy, I don't think it's needed for lower end cards. I can understand why people would feel more comfortable in the higher ends where the difference of a single grade can mean thousands of dollars. But for lower grades on the relatively common sets, where the contribution of slabs is trust/confidence and not so much value, I'd rather keep the third parties out of it if at all possible - just to keep from introducing more costs into the system. If I have reason to think the person is knowledgable and fair I would not pay more just for the slab. As to the intrinsic value of slabs - protection and display - I have been struggling with that. I have been meaning to get all my cards SGC'd except one from each set to keep out for handling and passing around. But as I show people my cards, and look at them myself, it is invariably the raw cards that get the attention, including mine. The slabbed cards are nice, but they are not ... cards. They are more like representations of cards, or displays of cards. But not really cards. So I am rethinking my drink here, and considering going the opposite direction and breaking all my slabbed cards (about 1/3 of my collection) out - except a very few where value considerations are in play. I also have never accidentally wrecked a card, so maybe the protective aspect of holders is overstated. If I could come up with a neat way to display the cards (gotta admit - black SGC's are gorgeous, and the slabs themselves better than topholders for display) it would be a done deal. So for me, there is really no reason at this point to want a slabbed card over raw. Keep them raw Leon. IMHO Joann

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04-16-2006, 11:11 AM

Posted By: leonNice responses elicited so far. I put the "big clear scans of front and back" comment up for a purpose, so folks can make their own decision on the grade. Even on my site I generally will not put a grade for raw cards. I will put up big scans or send more if need be. I will give another comment or two after I see if there are any others that chime in. I hope there are. And at least on one point Tim is correct...it is a known person....and to David's point I take no offense. I trust SGC more than me by a little bit..not on the grading as much as the catching of an alteration. ps..interesting tidbit..I know a guy that get's all of his cards slabbed by SGC, takes a picture of them, and frees them... and edited to be less dramatic....

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04-16-2006, 11:38 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliLeon, I know you a little bit, find you very knowledgeable and trustworthy, and would never hesitate to buy a card from you. And I'll pay a little more for the graded ones. Always. -Al

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04-16-2006, 12:05 PM

Posted By: Scott TI prefer to buy graded cards from Ebay because I do not (usually) know the seller. I have also bought raw cards from the B/S/T Forum and have found them to be fairly graded, unlike many of their Ebay counterparts! If Ebay will be Leon's venue, then I would recommend getting the cards graded. If he plans to sell then here, then leave them raw. Scott

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04-16-2006, 12:20 PM

Posted By: andy beckeri would slab them, leon. for me it wouldn't ever matter if a card was raw.....but for the masses you must conform <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ....and slab.

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04-16-2006, 12:39 PM

Posted By: PaulIf I know the seller pretty well, & the front/back scans show the card clearly, I wouldn't pay more for graded. However, I do usually stay away from raw cards if those conditions are less than stellar.

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04-16-2006, 12:43 PM

Posted By: Bob DIf I've a nice scan of the card and I trust Leon (I do), why do I want to pay a premium ($12) for someone (SGC, PSA) to give me their opinion on the card. I'd rather split the difference. $6 to me and $6 to Leon. I could but a few beater 39 Playballs or even a T206.

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04-16-2006, 01:08 PM

Posted By: BobI have learned the hard way not to buy slabbed cards without a scan. Even your beloved SGC can be all over the place on cards ranging from 10-50. Just when I think I know what consitiutes a PSA 2 or SGC 30 or GAI 2, I get a clunker in the mail that looks worse than some I have seen in 10 holders. I guess the bottom line is to educate yourself on condition and grading as much as possible, ask for nice scans and go from there, slabbed or unslabbed. Don't rely on grading company grades sight unseen. If you want to make sure the card is authentic (most likely) you are safe with the Big 3, but as far as grades go, it is still subjective IMHO.

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04-16-2006, 02:23 PM

Posted By: HandsAtNeckOnly the best will do. But is PSA or NGC's opinion more reliable than Leon's? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

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04-16-2006, 06:53 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisLet's recall....before Grading and before Ebay we went to shows and bought or traded cards. In any event, seller and buyer would closely observe a card of interest and 75 - 90% of the time come to some agreement and make the deal. It was as simple as that......no muss....no fuss. But, nowadays we think we need a "mediator" ! Leon....to answer your question...."frankly, I don't give a damn"....if a card you are selling me (or trading with me) is Graded or Not. Furthermore, it does not matter to me if it is Poor-Fair-Good, or even if you rate it as Near Mint. You and I would arrive at a mutual agreement and the deal would be done. Actually, I would prefer the card in its "natural" state; therefore, I don't have to crack it open. And, believe me, I have carefully removed cards from their "professional" encapsulation and have found them to be less than their Graded # proposes. I'd say, after cracking open 100's of Graded cards, 25% to 35% of them fail to meet their Graded condition.

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04-16-2006, 11:56 PM

Posted By: Steve KThe answer is real simple...if I can see the card in person, I don't care whether it's graded or not...if I can't see the card in person, it has to be graded for me to buy it.

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04-17-2006, 12:39 AM

Posted By: BobBut Steve, do you need to see the card (scan of card in holder)or would you buy it just because it says SGC 30? A lot of people buy cards sight unseen (I have done this before) without seeing the scan because it might be a card listed in the BST thread and you are afraid it will disappear if you don't strike fast.

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04-17-2006, 01:26 AM

Posted By: Dan KravitzHey, check out Ebay item # 8792567899. Sorry I couldn't get the link. It's a case that holds 30 SGC graded cards for display. I have 2 of them and they are very well constructed of solid painted black wood and Plexiglas. Super for displaying your newly graded SGC cards. I would have your cards graded. Display for all to enjoy, rather than locked in a closet. They are the finest of art works.

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04-17-2006, 01:51 AM

Posted By: Julie Vognarto remove the slab as soon as I get the card home. Auction houses know most people want graded cards (or a guasrentee that the card will grade, so they get the cards consigned to them graded, often at their own expense.) Rob Lifson spends so muvch ink contradicting the grading companies, ususally to say they grade to low, but occesaonally that they grade too high--I really don't see why REA goes tro the bother and expense--yes, I do--cause they know most of you only want graded cards...period!

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04-17-2006, 06:51 AM

Posted By: Chris McI prefer graded cards and will pay a premium for (SGC) cards. I have a couple of small ones running around and I like to have them (my cards) protected. I also like the way the cards look in the holders. There are many benifits to buying a graded card as opposed to raw for me. It is only my preference. I have bought ungraded cards and had them graded, no big deal. That being said, I would be willing to pay a little more for a graded card, provided it's in a SGC holder. The jury is still out on the other three grading companies.

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04-17-2006, 08:45 AM

Posted By: Martin Neal I prefer to purchase ungraded cards. The only time I will buy a graded card is if it is going into my t205 set. I can't recall ever buying a graded t206 although I am sure I have bought one or two. I have probably purchased close to 2000 of them in the last 4 years. I have only purchased one t206 that might have been an fake (it was a very good one if it was) and one group of 50 t206s that were trimmed. Both times the sellers were gracious enough to take them back. I do send my decent t206s to Psa to be graded because there is always a possibility that those will be sold at some point. It is like pulling teeth to let them go, but sometimes those sales fund other interests.

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04-17-2006, 09:39 AM

Posted By: jay behrensEveryone seems to have lost focus. The question is not, graded v raw. The question is, would you pay more for graded v raw IF YOU WERE DEALING WITH LEON. Jay I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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04-17-2006, 11:02 AM

Posted By: Chris McLeon, I would pay you more for cards that you had graded as opposed to raw. Happy Easter, Chris

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04-17-2006, 02:50 PM

Posted By: RickI would probably pay Leon the same price wether graded or not ...but only for cards that would not leave my collection. The problem its not Buying from Leon ...the problem is if i ever have to sell would people trust me the way they trust Leon?

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04-17-2006, 03:12 PM

Posted By: Alan ZimmermanI would buy ungraded cards from an online dealer, but the cards would have to be at reduced prices.

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04-17-2006, 05:27 PM

Posted By: RickI will always pay more for graded cards. It is easier for me to resell these cards in the future, it saves me the hassle of sending them in for grading, and it gives me peace of mind that I am getting what I am paying for. When I buy ungraded cards on ebay, even if the seller has great scans of both sides of the cards, I always assume that the seller is advertising the cards at least one grade higher than they really are, and I bid accordingly.

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04-21-2006, 01:13 PM

Posted By: Joe D.I think that I buy ungraded when I think I am getting a deal (buying at a discount) - and will pay full price for cards that are graded (especially for the lower value ones).

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04-21-2006, 02:08 PM

Posted By: RobAs altered, trimmed, or another reason which even a reputable seller may miss and which won't show up on even a good scan. I've got burned once like that by a reputable seller (more than made up by for by buying other ungraded cards at a low price, getting graded, then selling). I sent in the card 6 months after the purchase, so it wasn't realistic to try to get a refund. Perhaps you can state on your website that you will guarantee your raw cards as gradeable for 6-12 months after purchase plus paying the card grading fees if a card doesn't grade. I would think such a guarantee should satisfy the objections voiced here by people who prefer graded cards. The responses indicate at best you're limiting yourself of potential buyers, at worse, you're going have to discount much more than the card grading fees to sell a card. That has been consistent with my observations of raw cards sold on Ebay.