Set Registry

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I hope I get a response from someone that falls into this category that I ask the question about.<br /><br />For those of you that compete for the higher spots on a registry, why do you do it and why do you spend so much money in doing it (overpaying in my mind outrageously, but that up to you if have the means)?<br /><br />I don't know that there are a enough people if any other than the other bidders that accuatly care or really know that it is an achievement of any kind. Heck I would be surprised if any in competion even know each other, other than by name.<br /><br />Just curious, everyone has the right to spend their money how ever they feel.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>you might as well ask the question in this form:<br /><br />"doing so-and-so is the dumbest stupidest thing in the world and is a waste of money. you'll never recoup your money by doing that. so tell me, why do you do it?"<br /><br />I don't think you'll get a quality response phrasing the question as you did.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I like the idea of set registries a lot. I also like the idea of being as high on a set registry as possible. It is a way of being competitive with your collection. If you are not into that, you certainly do not have to participate in it. But for those of us who are competitive by nature, it gives us a little something extra when we are purchasing a card for the registry. And, actually, it provides non-collectors with whom we share our collections a way of saying, "look, I have the Nth most complete set of X cards graded by [SGC/PSA/GAI], according to this registry." <br /><br />Wholly apart from the competitive aspects, I also like the registry as a way to organize, view and share my collection on-line.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p> I wanted to put together a graded set before I had even heard of the registry. I picked a small set (89 cards). I wanted the set to be at least NM (7). I dont get caught up in the bidding for low pops and I'm surely never going to own the finest set of all time. But I do own a very nice graded set and that was and still is my goal. <br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>HandsAtNeck</b><p>If you collect cards for their artistic merit, why settle for a damaged example? If you want the cards because of their history, why buy one which did not circulate at its time of its issuance? If you simply want your cards to commemorate an event, why purchase one in high grade? If your preference is the assembly of type examples - why obtain star players? Etc.

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Posted By: <b>Brad</b><p>Why asks why? Red neck you make no sense!

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>It's a nice way of showing cards and seeing other people's sets. When I finish my Aguilitas set, I'll get it graded and registered and pester everyone I know to go and admire it.<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>HandsAtNeck</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Why do I do it and why do I spend so much money doing it?<br /><br />Two different questions.<br /><br />1)I like to collect complete sets <br />2)I like sets that are in nrmt-mt or better condition<br />3)I want to make odds as high as possible I am getting unaltered cards.<br />4)I like the competition.<br />5)I believe that high grade, low population vintage cards are a good investment. Certainly in recent years they have been.<br />6)I would never buy an ungraded card.<br />7)I personally have met at least 50 people on the PSA Set Registry--some I compete with--some not.<br />8)I get a lot of e-mails from dealers and fellow collectors offering me cards and wanting to buy certain of my cards. There is no way I would have finished so many sets in psa 8 and better if not for this.<br />9)Its fun.<br /><br />Jim(Davalillo)

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>If you "like sets that are in nrmt-mt or better condition" you are most certainly not "making the odds as high as possible that you are getting unaltered cards."<br /><br />Indeed, one of the reasons (other than cost) that I do not have much interest in collecting T206 cards graded higher than a 6 is that relatively high probability that such cards have been altered -- and, in my opinion, those odds go up even higher if you're using PSA (as opposed to SGC). <br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I have a small number of sets on both the PSA and SGC registries.<br /><br />I put them there for a number of reasons:<br /><br />1) I've met several other collectors of those sets through the registry, and have been able to obtain cards I needed and sell cards I didn't need as a result. I've also done trades with people as a result of the registry.<br />2) It enables me to publicize my want list for particular sets with pretty wide exposure.<br />3) For sets I collect where I've made condition a priority, it helps me watch my progress as I upgrade.<br />4) When I get around to it, it's a nice place to display my collection via scans.<br />5) I like to see how my set compares with other people's sets. I'm not particularly competitive about it, but I find it interesting to me.<br /><br />I should note, though, that I have a lot of cards that are not on registries, either, and I have a lot of raw sets I'll never get graded. <br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>If you had Jim's money, would you go after a SGC 80 or higher set? Methinks the answer would be yes.

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Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>It's naive to believe that a significant percentage of sets or near sets are registered. Owning the #1 PSA graded set is like saying your the best chess player on your block.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>T206 Collector,<br /><br />We differ on this. I do not believe there is a probability that the cards have been altered. Possibility yes, probability no. Buying nrmt-mt cards ungraded the odds of alteration go up significantly.<br /><br />Regardless, doesn't seem to matter on resale. Even higher pop psa 8 T206 commons seem to be getting $2,000 and up--lower pops 2-3X this.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...I will assume that your question was whether I would purchase cards graded higher than SGC 80 if I had a larger amount of disposable income than I currenty have. That is a hypothetical question that is hard to imagine answering. Last week I purchased an M116 Walter Johnson SGC 70, which is about as nice a condition card that I could ever imagine owning. I am not sure it would ever be worth it to me to pay thousands of dollars more to upgrade that card to an 80 or higher. For one thing -- and directed more to the point of my initial post -- cards graded higher than 70 or 80 are, in my opinion, more likely to have been altered than cards graded much lower. <br /><br />If you are principally concerned with unaltered cards, then high grade cards should not by your focus. I recommend that anyone with a large stash of vintage cards graded 6 and higher by PSA to have them looked at by your friendly neighborhood SGC grader at the next big show. They'll take a look at them, for free, and let you know what they think of those cards. <br /><br />I brought 40-50 PSA graded cards to a show to have SGC take just such a look, and the results were very educational. They pointed out wrinkles in a 6 or two that I had owned for years and never saw. They demonstrated how a 5 I had owned had been trimmed on two sides. In all, about 25% of the cards I showed to SGC, they could not crossover to the same or higher grade. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I have begun to grade many of my vintage sets. I am doing it to have peace of mind when it comes to having unaltered cards, to better document and organize the collection and besides,I am finding that all the cards I buy to "fill" are graded anyway. <br /><br />If you have the set, and it's all graded, why not register?<br /><br />Would I ever pay 10x value for a pop 1? Highly unlikely. In fact I go the other way. When some of my cards come back high grade and low pop, I trade or sell them to the aggressive registry guys for a slightly lower grade and some compensation. Good for me, good for them. I love my PSA 5s and SGC 60s.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Without a doubt, the best sets in existence for the most popular pre-war vintage sets are graded.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...that it would be "naive to believe that a significant percentage of sets or near sets are registered" and also that "owning the #1 PSA graded set is like saying your the best chess player on your block." <br /><br />But competitiveness is all about being the best "on your block." Of those that choose to compete, you are the best. It's like the Olympics or any other sport -- you are only judged the best relative to those that try to compete with you. <br /><br />And being on the SGC Set Registry, I do not consider myself in competition with the PSA boys who, if my experiences are equally applicable to theirs, would have a success rate of only about 75%-85% in having their cards crossed over to SGC. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>T206,<br /><br />Again I disagree.<br /><br />I don't believe that there are sets out there prewar that consistently grade out between nrmt-mt and mint like there are on the psa set registry or possibly the sgc registry.<br /><br />Its not the best on the block. For all the major pre-war and certainly 40s, 50s and 60s sets the best collections in the world are on the registry.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I have the only SGC registered set in two (2) categories so I don't have to compete with anyone. That's not to say that I won't "overpay" for an item that fills a hole in my sets but then that's a story thats been hashed and re-hashed before.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...we'll just have to agree to disagree, I suppose. <br /><br />But I challenge you to bring your high grade T206 collection to the next Hofstra Show and meet with the good folks at SGC. You can ask them about the funny bat ears that you've wondered about on some of your PSA cards -- I am assuming that you have been wondering about them, because I used to wonder about them on my PSA cards. It won't cost you anything, unless you decide to register your set with a better grading company than PSA.

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>"Without a doubt, the best sets in existence for the most popular pre-war vintage sets are graded."<br /><br />I see statements like this a lot, and I can't help but disagree.<br /><br />There are maybe 10-20 names that appear at the top of various registries with some degree of regularity. Those people have astounding collections, no doubt, and those collectors are well known. One of them - Marshall Fogel - has been sharing his cards with this board for a few months now, and they're a pleasure to see.<br /><br />But I can't be so bold as to make the assumption that because I can view an online registry, I have a window into an entire hobby that, for many people, is a solitary one. There are more than two hundred million people in this country, there are billions of baseball cards, and I can't imagine that the grading companies share this belief. If the market is so small that all the best cards are already graded after only 10-15 years of grading companies having a presence in the hobby, then the concept of starting a grading company and entering the market was a poor, poor business decision.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>HandsAtNeck</b><p>Jim: What evidence did you use to draw the conclusion: "For all the major pre-war and certainly 40s, 50s and 60s sets the best collections in the world are on the registry".?<br /><br />I was thinking that the best condition sets were taken out of the hobby long ago, and most are still out of the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[Out of date]<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>T206 Collector,<br /><br />Dave Forman and his graders have been to my house and looked at my T206 cards.<br /><br />I like SGC and think they are a well-run company.<br /><br />You are welcome to examine my cards as well if you like.<br /><br />On the best collections being ungraded and socked away, I don't believe it. Every old time collection I have ever seen that comes up for grading is filled with off center cards and cards that have at the least touches on the corners.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...yes, you've told me that before. But for some reason you continue to keep your cards holdered by PSA. Hmmmmm....

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I know of some graded sets that would be #1 but are not on the registry because their owners appreciate their privacy. But I have to agree with Jim that in the vast majority of cases, at least for relatively mainstream pre-war sets, the best are graded.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Plenty of regulars on this chat board overpay (your word not mine) for cards but for reasons other than the registry (rookies, types, spite, etc). I don't understand the trend of judging how/why another person collects.<br /><br />I have seen many instances on this board when someone posts "Look at this auction, I put a bid at 300% of what it should go for. These three guys bid above me and my snipe didn't register. Aren't they stupid? Must be the registry's fault..." See the irony?<br /><br />My point of view? I applaud anyone that supports the hobby -- either buying or selling cards. I don't care why they do it or how they show it. Someone else's motivation (to be the best, to brag, to horde, etc.) to buy or sell doesn't impact my enjoying this great hobby. <br /><br />If someone can drop (what I consider) an unreasonable amount of cash on a card, I applaud their ability to do so. I am sure I have dropped (what others consider) an unreasonable amount of cash on a card, and I am glad I can do so.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>JimB,<br /><br />You can use any name you want on the registry and you do not have to provide an e-mail. I would have to see it to believe it.<br /><br />Take 1952 Topps--probably the best known and widely collected vintage set. Does anybody really believe there is one that could rival Merkel's? or Fogel's or Louchios? or Spence?<br />How about 1933 Goudey Sport Kings--I am 6th and aside from the 5 above me I think I have the 6th best collection in the world.<br /><br />T206,<br /><br />I think PSA, SGC and GAI are all good. I have a long historical relationship with PSA and have long had the goal of 100 vintage or semi-vintage sets PSA 8 or better--really no need to switch.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they're not there.<br /><br />Again, if all the best sets were already graded, then there's virtually nothing left to grade. Who would get into that business? And yet there are two - some would say three - grading companies that are thriving and growing and consistently bringing in new material.<br /><br />I think there is a long, long way to go - like, GENERATIONS - before ALL the best cards make their way out of the woodwork and back into the hobby. High-grade prewar cards have only been a serious, big-money endeavor for 20-30 years (with some notable exceptions). The incentive to sell has simply not been there long enough to have shaken out ALL the best collections.<br /><br />I think it's a strange element to this hobby, to look at a few dozen high-grade sets that happen to be on registries, and draw the conclusion that since those are the only sets that are registered, that those are the only sets that exist. It's one of those strange occurrences where concepts like "probability" and "math" get thrown right out the window.<br /><br />It's like saying that "All the best doctors in the country go to the AMA convention," or "All the best songwriters in the country get nominated for Grammies." The logic is flawed, because it's simply impossible to know all the best doctors or all the best songwriters - so nobody would make either of those statements.<br /><br />To me, it is simple math. If one out of 50 MILLION people in this country has a high-grade, raw T206 set, then there are more high-grade raw sets than registered ones. I think that probability is higher than other people think it is, I guess.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>HandsAtNeck</b><p>Say it isn't so ... "spite" as a reason for anything, and particularly overbidding! I guess I just don't get this hobby yet. But keep on overbidding for spite. It makes all of our cards more valuable. That will show us.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />Collectors who are atop the registry in vintage sets didn't just submit there set and leave it. In most cases they have built or improved their sets card by card and have acquired them from a multitude of sources.<br /><br />There are undoubtedly individual mint cards out there which would improve top sets--however there are no sets out there which would rival the top graded ones--be they psa or sgc.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with it.<br /><br />The highest-graded CJ set was a raw set in someone's house just a few years ago. I say there are plenty more raw prewar sets out there. You say there aren't. I'd say that based on probability, the odds are with me. Perhaps I'm wrong - I'm wrong about something at least once a day.<br /><br />That's okay, though; they're all gorgeous cards. Regardless of which one of us is right, it still doesn't change either of our collecting choices.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Jim--I can say with some degree of certainty that the best Old Judge sets, the best Kalamazoo Bats sets, the best E107 sets, the best N173 sets, etc are not slabbed. Many great sets are, but similarily many great sets aren't.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...who Kankakee Club is, but he just showed up with 99% of the T206 set on the Set Registry within the past few months. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/index.asp?action=3&setcategory=1&setid=243&usetid=1230" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/index.asp?action=3&setcategory=1&setid=243&usetid=1230</a><br /><br />Who knows who else is out there. Why you think you know better than anybody else is beyond me and frankly smacks of hubris. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>HandsAtNeck,<br /><br />I was being glib.<br /><br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> This is my first post here (A long time lurker). I collect Gum Inc. WW2 War Cards. I'm a participant in the PSA Set Registry. Why?<br />1. It's an excellent way to meet other collectors with similar interests.<br />2. Great way to ensure that cards are unaltered.<br />3. Helps keep the condition of the cards uncompromised.<br />4. On online line record of my collection that I can reference in case of loss.<br />5. It's just a lot of fun.<br />My goal is to build complete sets in PSA3 or better. It has been my experience that the quality of purchased Graded cards is better than the quoted grade of raw cards. Resale of Duplicates/Upgraded cards fetch better prices when graded.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />We'll see--just let me know when someone submits a raw vintage set that grades over 8.00.<br /><br />T206,<br /><br />I am all knowing(ha). I've been accused with a lot worse. We can disagree.<br /><br />Jay,<br /><br />I'm sure you are right--I am talking about sets I am familiar with where there have been the most graded

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>you sound like a real horse trader........<br />so to speak......<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>JimC - Al did give you one example, that CJ set. I don't think there are many examples, but I'm sure every few years, there will be some like that set surface. The question really isn't if any exists...the question is how many. That we'll never know.<br /><br />Al - A raw 1933 Goudey surfaced last year. The set wasn't hidden, some collectors knew about it...but it just wasn't graded. The owner of that set decided to sell, and it was graded by PSA. I think the average grade was roughly PSA 7.0 ... which would rank that set about 10th if PSA and SGC registries are combined. It was a great set of cards, but still fell way short of the 'absolute best'. So although I do think these great raw sets do exist (CJ is a great example), there aren't many.<br /><br />So I guess I am somewhere between Jim and Al.<br /><br />Lee - I was wrong...you got many quality responses in this thread.

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>Without a doubt, the best sets in existence for the most popular pre-war vintage sets are graded.<br /><br />Without a doubt that is a very false statement. I know of a T3 set that would all be likely 7s and higher that is ungraded. I also know of many many more that are in private collections and the owner decides to keep them under wraps. If you don't consider the N172 or T3 set a popular pre-war set than I don't know what you would.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Jones</b><p>I know of a caramel set that would top the registry that is currently ungraded.

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Posted By: <b>Nick D.</b><p>"I think I have the 6th best collection in the world."...obviously. The best collectors always come onto messageboards and rank themseleves amongst others. Keith Olberman was on here last week claiming he was number 1 but idk...<br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>As someone who has 2 highest graded sets (T204 & E103)that were for the most part purchased raw, I do think there are still some high grade raw cards out there, but I don't think many sets. I bought about 800 T204's to put my set together and at one time had 4 complete sets and 2 sets of the square borders. I have sold about 600 of the T204's after grading. In my set there are about 10 cards that I purchased graded, mostly 8's including the Johnson. The raw Johnsons graded 7, 6, 5 and 1, all gone now. I did get a very high grade raw group of 20 cards from Dave Forman in 1995 - those cards graded 1 - 9, 9 - 8's and 10 - 7's. Dave remembers the sale to me at $200 per card, but not where he obtained the cards. Scott Brockelman knows of another nice group of raw T204's, but has lost track of them. I saw a group of 40 raw T204's including a Johnson and a TTT here in Florida two years ago, allthough they are in the 2 - 4 grade range with one possible 7. Will a haul like the CJ's turn up in T204's ? - allmost no chance. My E103's were all purchased raw, most from David Bryant about 10 years ago. I have been able to up grade a few (4 or 5)in graded cards over the last few years. The T204 set has no cards graded less than 5 and the E103 set has no cards graded better than 5. I think that there is zero chance that set or even a group of 7 or 8ish E103's will turn up. Also have sets of E93's, Delong's and 49 Leaf's and am messing with the 4 flavors of E92's and T205's. Why do I do this? hard to say.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Zach,<br /><br />Those are not popular sets among graded card collectors.<br /><br />I love it when people say I saw a set that is all nrmt-mt. Comes back with an avg. grade of 6.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jim,<br />There are people with great graded sets who simply do not participate in the Registry. Is there a better 52 Topps set than Merkle's or Fogel's? I doubt it. But I know that the best E95 set (all PSA graded), for example, is not on the Registry. And I know of some very high-grade raw caramel sets out there. The 1914 CJ set mentioned above was another example up until a couple of years ago. While most mainstream highgrade sets are on the Registry, I think it would be a mistake to assume that ALL are.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />How many more T206 sets of 95-98% completion on the SGC or PSA set registry with an average grade of 7 or higher would it take for you to admit that you were wrong?<br /><br />Once you supply a number, we can all keep monitoring the registries over the next few years and then come back to this post and see whether we can prove Jim wrong yet. It is only a matter of time.<br /><br />Paul<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>"How many more T206 sets of 95-98% completion on the SGC or PSA set registry with an average grade of 7 or higher would it take for you to admit that you were wrong?"<br /><br />Let's see, Paul. Right now, tallying up the number of sets on either registry at 95-98% with an average grade of 7 or higher, there are a grand total of, umm, one.<br /><br />So I guess the number would be one, then. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />OR - novel concept - perhaps we can change our way of thinking a bit, and finally admit that the concept of "high grade" when it comes to most prewar sets does NOT mean PSA/SGC 8 or better. More like 6 or better, perhaps even lower on some sets.<br /><br />If we lower our definition of "high grade" to EX-MT for T206, then the number changes DRAMATICALLY. Using the lower standards, the total number of "high grade" registered T206 sets above 95% complete in EX-MT or better is...<br /><br />Oh. It's still just the one.<br /><br />Huh.<br /><br />I seriously doubt that there enough raw, high-grade T206 sets out there to make a measurable impact on that number over the next, say, 100 years.<br /><br />(sorry about the sarcasm, I just think it all comes down to simple math once again, and the issue is obvious to me).<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>It was sad when Hal, no matter how much money he spent, could not vault his collection above #7 on PSA's HOF player set. "Your PSA 7 M101-5 Ruth is no match for my PSA 9 1970 Rold Gold Pretzels Ruth, Mr. Lewis...bwahahaha!"

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>That guy with America's Toughest Wantlist must have some incredibly high grade sets. He's been advertising his want ad for NM-MT or better prewar card for years.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>because these certainly should fit in.<br />P.S. I love the item description <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/WOW-Nice-Set-Of-old-Piedmont-Cig-Baseball-Cards_W0QQitemZ8795409432QQcategoryZ86841QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/WOW-Nice-Set-Of-old-Piedmont-Cig-Baseball-Cards_W0QQitemZ8795409432QQcategoryZ86841QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem</a>

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>What king of response would you expect to get from a question like that? I get the sense you can't afford higher-grade cards. If I'm not mistaken, you collect lower-grade cards.<br /><br />How about reversing your question to: For those of you who buy low-grade cards, why do you do it and why do you spend good money in doing it (buying low-grade cards in my mind is a waste of money as they are low-grade and not worth much (color pictures from the Internet would suffice and they're FREE!!!!) but if you want to spend your money, by all means.<br /><br />I don't know that there are enough people if any other than the other bidders that actualy care or really know that it is an achievement of any kind to collect low-grade cards. Heck I would be surprised if any in competion even know each other, other than by name.<br /><br />Just curious why you waste your money on low-grade cards, everyone has the right to spend their money however they feel.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Lee's dispproval notwithstanding, I think his question is a good one and deserves an answer. I think this thread has been hijacked to some degree back to the Slab v. Non-Slab War. For some background, I collect both high grade vintage Registry sets (I've got a few in the top 5 and 10) as well as some highly graded vintage cards of players that I love. Many times I wonder why I bother spending a lot of money on some expensive, high graded common or even a star that is not one of my favorites when I could be spending the cash on really special cards. For example, spending $1500 a piece on four highly graded 1933 Goudey HOFers in PSA 8 when I could be spending that 6K on a T205 Matty in PSA 7 - a card I consider to be one of my alltime favorites. Psychologically speaking, I think the reason I try to complete the Registry sets I've started is due to the same collecting habits I had as a kid. Back in 1972 when I started collecting in earnest, Topps was the only game in town and I tried like hell to get every card in each set. Same thing every year until 78 when I discovered Renata Galasso and ordered the whole set at once. Now as an adult, with more disposable income than I should have and the inversely proportional level of intelligence, I find myself buying high graded card after slabbed card of players in sets I only dreamed of as a kid; sets of cards I used to just want one of, i.e., 33 Goudey, T206, 54, 55, 58 Topps, etc. And as a kid, once I start a set, psychologically I want to finish them all off and have the entire set, the entire history of that set in one, complete place. I suppose it makes me somewhat obsessive/compulsive (and as Jim C will attest to, when you're a card or two away from completing a high graded Registry set your head feels like it will explode until you get that final piece of the puzzle into place) but that is what my collecting habit is. I still buy the highly graded versions of the players I adore (Hank Greenberg, Cobb, Matty, Hal Chase, Mantle, etc.) I just don't necessarily spend the same cash as I could if I didn't bother spending the cash needed to complete a vintage Registry set in PSA 7.5 to 8. I don't know if that sheds any light on what you were thinking, Lee, but there it is.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Al,<br /><br />There are two All Time sets of PSA 7 or higher at 95%+ completion. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/display_rsets.chtml?setid=83&set_name=1909%2D11%20T206%20White%20Border" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/display_rsets.chtml?setid=83&set_name=1909%2D11%20T206%20White%20Border</a><br /><br />I was aware of these stats when I made my original post. My point was very simple -- let's get Jim or you to identify whatever cutoff you want for "never will there be another better set registered" and we'll see if it comes true. The higher the threshold, the more people will agree with you. The lower the threshold, the fewer people will agree with you. If you choose PSA 9 at 100% completion for E107, I would agree that no one will ever get there in any of our lifetimes. If you choose PSA 3 at 75% completion for T206, well, then... well, you get the picture. <br /><br />Either way, I just want a definition -- an average grade cutoff of a defined set, including what percentage of completion is acceptable. Then we can have an honest debate about whether more are out there -- and in the event more pop up, I can come back here and say, told you so. And if not, you can continue to come back here and say that you were all-knowing.

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Posted By: <b>matt</b><p>Whatever happened to just enjoying the cards. Buying lower grade cards is pretty easy you can get a faster return. You need to take a look at the images in the "Most Recent Pickups" threads. Maybe you can tell us who is wasting money and who is not. Pretty sure most people buy cards for fun and the love of collecting while continually upgrading. God you sound arrogant. Isn't a low grade set better than nothing. I have enclosed 6 of my 202 T205 beaters ready for grading and your judgement. For some reason I thought completing a set was just as important!<br /><br />.<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1144897005.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Scott T</b><p>some random thoughts...<br /><br />I use SGC for my ultra low grade T206 set because (being the anal retentive nerd I am) I want all my cards to have a uniform presentation.<br /><br />Grading isn't for everyone, but as long as cards don't end up in PRO holders, to each their own.<br /><br />I am currently 8th on the SGC registry (90% completion...average grade 24.66) and there is very little chance of me ever moving up the ladder. <br /><br />I keep going back to the (papaphrased) line from "Full Metal Jacket"...<br /><br />"This is my collection. There are many like it, but this one is mine!" <br><br>Scott <br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I didn't miss your point, I just didn't communicate mine clearly enough through my sarcasm.<br /><br />I'm with you on this. I didn't see a second set - only saw one - but my point was that if all the best sets in the world are graded and registered, well, then there are not a whole lot of "best" T206 sets. You asked Jim for a number - I glanced quickly at the registry and only saw one set. So I was kinda laughing because if there's only one high-grade set registered, then it would only take one more to refute Jim's point.<br /><br />I like grading, I embrace grading, and I have registered sets. I just can't buy into the idea that ALL the best collections are graded. First, "best" is a relative term: is a collection of one low-grade T206 Wagner "better" than a collection of a complete run of 1960s baseball sets in PSA 8? I don't know the answer to that, nor do I care to speculate. <br /><br />Second, there are thousands of collections out there that none of us know about, and I'm not about to draw conclusions on the merits of something I've never seen.<br /><br />That's all.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I would assume that Larry Fritsch, who has been actively upgrading sets for thirty+ years may have the best of many sets. I would be shocked if his Topps stuff isn't as good as it gets.

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>Actually Jim, the T3 set I mentioned is not a bunch of 6s but more like 7s and 8s. And you seem to find a pretty healthy amount of PSA graded T3s along with set builders building them in PSA slabs so I do think it is a very popular set in graded form.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>t206monsta - Ive never seen you post here before, so I doubt you are anything other than a troll trying to stir the pot, but a couple of points, first, if you plan to attack someone - provide your name per board rules. Second, I doubt seriously that you actually collect vintage cards. Otherwise you would know that lower to mid-grade cards can be incredibly valuable and are appreciating as fast or faster than high grade cards.<br />They also sell this book called the dictionary - may want to pick one up.<br /><br />As far as low grade cards are concerned, I cant imagine why anyone would waste their money on these ugly things:<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/1922W575-1JohnsonfMedium.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/1912T227Cobbfmedium.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Mark, got a last name? If you are going to come ont his board and be a pompous, arrogant, ass and cast aspertions at long time members of the board, you need to properly identify yourself.<br /><br />I've been on both sides of the collecting spectrum, chasing high grade cards and now buying the worst of the worst. You what I find more satisfying? Buying the worst of the worst. The cards have charater. They were loved and enjoyed someone else. You know and PSA8 9 or 10 reminds me of? A sterile hospital room. Pretty look at, but in the end, it jsut leaving feeling a bit empty. These cards survived in this condition because no one cared about them and sat unloved and ignored for decades until someone found them realized they could make a buck off them. They were dug out and looked at again not because someone cared about. They wanted to see if they were something they could make some money off of. <br /><br />As someone else pointed out, take a look at the BST and take a look at what most collectors on this board are buying.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>t206monsta sounds like our old friend Adam Moran from Iowa.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If you are not well known by your Net54 handle then you do need to put your full name in the posts.....anymore posts in this thread by folks that are not well known must have their full name...<br /><br />For the record I think it's very naive to think that "most" high conditioned cards are graded today.....regards

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Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>Josh...You simply have a great looking T227 Cobb. The best looking vintage card today imo...nothing compares to the contrast and detail in that card. As a collector of Vintage Boxing, I have the Jack Johnson and Abe Attell cards in lower (poor) grade condition, and although they look nice, the Cobb is the nicest of them all.<br /><br />I do think the graded vs. ungraded agruments get old after a while. I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle though. I do have a former student of mine who has a beautiful near-mint, mint to mint (8 or 9) run of late 50's and 60's football sets ungraded perfectly maintained. He never heard of PSA, and he thought Beckett was the main (and therefore the best) grading company out there.<br /><br />The world doesn't revolve around the graded card industry.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Thanks John. I dont collect or currently own any boxing cards, but the one boxing card I have on my want list is a T227 Jack Johnson - very cool card.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I see where t206 Monsta is assailed for simply taking Lee's initial post nearly verbatim and turning it around to ask the question in reverse. He's then called pompous, arrogant, and casting aspersions, as well as aligned with a banished poster. When I see these types of response, I can certainly understand why lurkers and website "passersby" are reluctant to contribute to this board. And don't tell me it's because he didn't post his last name. Such is preferred and required when topics are controversial, but all he did was take essentially the exact same language and throw it back at Lee. It was pointed out in the very first response to this thread that the post could be construed as condescending. Dish it out, expect some back.<br /><br />Why would someone prefer the higher grade stuff? I think it's a commonly encountered practice by those who like antiques or the old in general. Would you prefer to look at or own the dented, rusted non-working 1932 Packard that still collects cobwebs in Uncle Frank's barn or one that is shown at Barrett-Jackson? Would your wife prefer to display chipped, discolored and pitted depression glassware, no doubt loved and full of history, or a pristine set of Miss America? Wanna show off your warped, scratched and unplayable Elvis records in their torn, taped and written-on jackets or the ones that were never played and looked like they were pressed yesterday? Why can't cards be viewed the same way?<br /><br />As for the registry, I don't really get off on the competition element either, but that isn't the only reason people participate. Hey, different strokes.

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>A classic case of apples and oranges.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Good point, Todd, with respect to your first paragraph.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I agree - apples and oranges. Todd - if you reread some of the early posts, cmoking pointed out how the initial queston could be construed as condescending. cmoking wasnt attacked for his comment at all. t206monsta took an entirely different approach and did turn it into a personal attack. Finally, as far as him being compared to adam j., well, if the shoe fits . . . (adam had the exact same mentality and opinion of anything that wasnt high grade).<br /><br />Finally, for the record, I have no problem looking at or displaying the low grade cards posted above for anyone and everyone to see. If I had a t227 cobb graded a 7 or 8 - you can bet I'd sell it as fast as I could, buy a "low grade" 3, 4 or 5 and take my extra money to the bank.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>"t206monsta took an entirely different approach and did turn it into a personal attack"<br /><br />Huh? Show me how the two posts differ, please.<br /><br />And you continue to align him with Adam M., based on this one post? Who's casting aspersions now?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Part of the forum rules are that when you get into a heated debate, intended or not, then you must put your full name if not well known by your handle. It's not that big of a deal imo. If you want to talk about cards in general you can remain unknown. If you want to debate you need to be known. It's not a crime in asking for folks to identify themselves when debating....and it's not a knock on character, or integrity, either. I agree T206 Monsta's post only turned the table around and I see no harm in doing that, for arguments sake. Many message boards are so locked down you have to pass a screening to get to participate. I think we walk the line on anonymity and let it go as much as possible...nuff said. BTW, I like my pr-fr cards as much as my nrmt ones.... regards

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I think Todd absolutely nailed this inflamatory thread.<br />The thread question itself takes an enormous stab at collectors of high grade material, quite disparaging in tone and effect, and equally obvious was the "monsta's" anger at the question.<br />He flipped it round to flip the thread-maker off, and everyone just piled on top of him for it. <br />Seems people might have lost track of the thread and just started reading half way down...........

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I think that t206monsta added enough editorial comment to change the overall tone from Lee's. <br /><br />Specifically, the first paragraph includes "I get the sense that you can't afford higher-grade cards. If I'm not mistaken you collect lower-grade cards." Lee's did not include anything that insulting, inflammatory, or directed at an individual.<br /><br />Also:<br /><br />Lee: "overpaying in my mind outrageously, but that's up to you if you have the means"<br />Other Guy: "buying low-grade cards in my mind is a waste of money as they are low-grade and not worth much (color pictures on the Internet would suffice and they are Free)"<br /><br />Lee said that people pay more than he thinks the card is worth, but makes no judgment on that, does not degrade the cards or the buyers, and does not say it's a waste of money. OG inserts commentary about low-grades not being worth much, even comparing them to free internet scans.<br /><br />Lee: "Just curious, everyone has the right to spend their money however they feel."<br />OG: "Just curious why you waste your money on low-grade cards, everyone has the right to spend the money however they feel."<br /><br />Again, the disparagement of low-grade cards as a "waste of money". <br /><br />For what I think he was trying to ask, I think Lee's question was pretty benign. I myself was curious to see the responses as well. I didn't read it as saying it was a waste of money, just that he was wondering about the thoughts and motivations of those that do it. He noted that he didn't see how it would be exposure/acclaim, whatever, and left the speculation at that. <br /><br />I can see where it could be interpreted as condescending, but if someone wanted to geunuinely inquire as to the thought process I'm hard-pressed to come up with wording that couldn't be interpreted as condescending. <br /><br />OG's post, OTOH, was facially aggressive and confrontational, and included digs and judgments about low end cards and the people that buy/collect them. If his were the only or first post, I would not read it in any way as a genuine question about interests.<br /><br />I think that the responses directed to the original question are interesting and helpful in realizing the differences among collectors (especially Paul's comments about the venue for being competitive, which many of us are). Sorry to participate in thread hijacking, just trying to point out a different view.<br /><br /><br />Joann<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>After rereading monsta's post, I see now that he was attempting to mirror lee's post. however, I agree with joanne that the manner in which it was done was not apples to apples. After rereading the post, I dont think its as bad as I originally took it, but I still think in "turning the tables" it looked more much more like an attack than the original post.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I appreciate how you have parsed out some differences in the two posts, but will respectfully disagree with your assessment. I find the inital post as far from benign, and I am skeptcial that you are truly "hard-pressed" to find a better way to word an approach to the subject. Both posters' parentheticals were jabs, and I see little difference in one claiming a certain type of collector overpays outrageously while the other suggests the other collector is wasting his money. Maybe it's just semantics, and maybe monsta ratcheted it up with the reference to internet scans, but both posts are cut from the same cloth, IMO. My point is, let the fur fly, controversy is OK and often healthy, just don't squelch the voice that disagrees with yours for speaking his mind.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Josh and Joann,<br /><br />When you feel someone has insulted you, it goes something like this.<br /><br />"Gee, you're a bit of an idiot"<br /><br />"Well, you're an idiot AND ugly, whose got the worse end of the deal?"<br /><br />People don't mirror eachothers disparagements, they feel the need to one up.<br /><br />Joann, if you don't see the original text as arrogant and demeaning, then its because you feel a kinship to the statements themselves.<br />And if you're looking for kinder wording, how's this:<br /><br />'I've always wondered, what makes people feel the need to buy cards in such high grade when the financial requirements are so incredibly demanding, and perhaps the physical differences can be so slight?'<br /><br />Oh, yes. I know why such wording wasn't used. Because the answer to the question is one EVERY collector knows and understands, and what the questioner really wanted to do was disparage such collecting habits.<br /><br />Don't know, doesn't seem hard to me.................

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I think most of the people picked up on the question just fine but there always seems to be the English majors out there that read more into a statement then there actually is.<br /><br />When I see $5000 being spent on a PSA 6 with 3 spots of obviuos paper loss on the front, I would like to know the motivation for paying that kind of money for a card in it's raw state be luckky to go for $100.<br /><br />Thanks to all who responded to the original post it is insightful.<br /><br />As far as low grade collecting goes, if you only have $1000 to spend do you want one card or 50 lowgrade presentable cards? My answer, 50 lowgrade cards more to enjoy.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...I could sell my set of 520 T206 cards for quite a bit of money to be able to afford 6 or 7 super-ultra-hi-grade T206 commons. But, if you ask me, that would be delusional. I'm striving for 520 T206 cards, all graded by SGC, with an average grade of 40 to 50.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>To those who would rather own low graded cards instead of PSA 8s, I have to tell you that I would prefer living in a $3 million home than one that cost$175K; I'd rather drive an 80K car than a Maxima and I'd rather have a $10K Rolex Daytona than a Timex. Oh, and all the while I'd rather send my kids to college and grad school without taking out any loans. I guess I'm just not as smart as the low grade card guys. Maybe one of these days I'll figure it all out.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>And what Lee said last is an interesting question: would you rather have 50 $20 beaters or one PSA 8 T206? Fair question and I suspect answers will be all over the map. But more importantly - would you rather own 50 beaters or 50 PSA 8s?

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>If I had $1000 to spend, I would buy one nice Cobb card and would pass on the 50 decent looking commons at $20each. But that's just me. I would stare at the Cobb card every night, but would find it hard to look at 50 off-grade no-names.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>1) Would you rather own 50 beaters or 50 PSA 8s?<br />2) Wouldy you rather own 50 beaters that are worth the value of 1 PSA 8, or just the 1 PSA 8?<br /><br />With respect to (1), I would rather own 50 PSA 8's.<br />With respect to (2), I would rather own the 50 beaters. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I have a lot of 20 off-grade 1938 Goudeys. I can come up with 30 more.<br /><br />If someone would like to trade me a PSA 8 Joe DiMaggio for them, just let me know.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Not sure again where you're at when you make such statements - about your reference to English Majors - seems to me that it follows much of your disdain for people you don't relate to. And not to get political, I have a feeling it will end this thread, but so much of that goes on these days in this country. As though to be literate, to care about being accurate and knowledgeable is somehow a low indicator of ethical and moral trueness.<br /><br />I know I've made a stretch here, and others will disagree immensely, but its not hard to get a pretty true read of people from what they write - and however you backstep now, your words ring loud and true. Of course, you were speaking to the true-believers, your people, and I'm sure they'll have your back.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; would you rather own 50 beaters or 50 PSA 8s?&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />Not directed at Mr. Lichtman, I am only using his quote. <br /><br />How about owning what you like and what you can afford?<br /><br />Works for me. <br /><br />As for the reg. I use it as a sort of checklist and have traded and bought and sold from many a member. <br /><br />Steve<br /><br /><br />Ps happy passover and easter to all.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Why don't you address my fact about the purchase of a PSA 6 with paper loss for $5000? That is more of the jest of this thread. This happens way to often and to me that is very a foolish purchase. As I stated earlier, everyone has the right to spend there money how they please, but decisions like this do not seem to me like very good ones.<br /><br />As far as what you did address, it wasn't even in the context of the statement I made for the situation, you twisted to meet your income needs and wants not as I addressed the question. More proof to how a statement gets twisted to meet there own needs.<br /><br />Most of us here are on limited budgets and spending on high grade cards is not really an option at this time. If my income was higher would branch out to collect more sets and not get high grade cards. I prefer presentable over high grade.<br /><br />I also think alot of common players are very interesting, take the worst hitter of all time Bill Bergen, .170 career hitter, had a brother that was a great caatcher for the World Champion Beaneaters the ended up murdering his family with an axe. All players have stories some more publized than others. That is one reason if I had $1000 I would spend it on 50 $20 presentable cards.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, I'd rather live small, comfortable home than a sprawling expanse of home that requires a house staff. I'd rather drive the vehicle I pulled from the junkyard for $500 than waste the moeny on a $80k vehicle that will never get me back my $80k. I'd rather wear a watch I got out of Cracker Jack box than waste $10k on a Rolex. $10k can buy you some nice cards for your collection. <br /><br />For those of use that don't have six-figure incomes your lifestyle is unrealistic.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Jay -<br /><br />I think that anyone that lives outside of our stupid little card world (probably 99.9% of the people out there) would think it absolutely rediculous to spend 10k on smelly cardboard rather than a Rolex <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JimB,<br /><br />Fair Point--There may be a a small number of ungraded sets among 10 most popular that are among the best and ungraded.<br /><br />T206,<br /><br />Deal but remember it is as submitted--not after upgrades.<br /><br />Dav

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well, I don't know how well known, famous or notorious I am... my name is Frank Wakefield.<br /><br />I'm REALLY biased against grading. I like to be able to touch a card. The little fellows are pieces of history. So the idea of registering a set seems to me the ultimate culmination of this grading folly. But that is not why I post.<br /><br />I've seen some very nice cards, in person, eyeball to cardboard, over the years. Wagners, Cracker Jack cards that look like they never went into the box in the first place, Old Judges that look like they were cut at the printers and then hidden away, beautiful cards. They were not graded. And even if I add into the population the scans of 8s and 9s and all that I've seen on eBay, in auctions, and on this board, it still seems to me that at least 90% of the really nice cards I'm aware of are ungraded.<br /><br />Maybe after a fellow gets a certain number of sets registered, he himself could get graded as a PSA 6 Collector... and if he gets more sets registered, then he could reach the PSA 7 level of collecting, and from that lofty position of honor he could then aspire to become a PSA 8 Collector. They could even send the collector a nice T shirt...<br /><br />Frank<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay - what if the cost of a PSA 7 T206 Cobb red background costs the proportional same amount of disposable income to a buyer as does a PSA 1 to you? Does that still make the purchase unwise? Same thing with the watch, house, car, etc.? What about the fact that T206 PSA 7s and 8s have more than doubled in value as based on ebay sales in the past two years? Still an unwise purchase?<br /><br />Lee, just curious: there's a card with paper loss that graded a 6? <br /><br />I think you need to appreciate what Richard wrote. We're in this little bubble spending money (sometimes lots) on cardboard. Sure it goes up in value in time but it's not exactly gold we're buying here. Some people (shudder) might think spending serious coin on baseball cards is foolish. <br /><br />Regardless, I think both you and Jay need to also appreciate that when given the opportunity to own a pristine example of a vintage baseball card, nearly everyone on the planet would rather take that one than a beater. After all, the pristine example is the one that looks the same as it did when it was taken out of a wax pack or a cigarette pack at the time of purchase. It allows us to look at the card and transport ourselves back to that exact moment in time when some kid (or some baseball fan with a nicotine addiction) first gazed upon the card. While a beater may be charming, it sure as hell doesn't look it was meant to look like upon creation no matter how special to you it might be to think that some kid put it under his pillow every day for a year or crammed it into his bicycle spokes.<br /><br />Jay and Lee, you guys seem to argue that money is not worth the troubles it brings. Imagine a world where having money allows you to buy all the stuff you wanted as a kid without any negative repercussions. The issues you guys raise are larger ones than just the simple question of why or why not someone would spend cash on a high graded Registry set. Regardless, I think I answered the question as to why someone would want to complete an entire graded set in my first response to this question you raised, right?

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>There is no "Laffer Curve" for baseball cards- an optimal amount of wear on a card that makes it most desirable- virtually everyone wants as nice a copy as they can afford. A straight upward sloping line.<br />Price is the variable that makes it tricky.<br /><br />Availability means something too. Many sets don't come in high grade. A PSA 7 E107 would look bizarre in a group of SGC 10s and 20s. I would have no desire to own such a thing (at what it might cost). On the other hand, there are plenty of caramels graded 4s and 5s, and T206s graded 6s and 7s. I like to collect the most commonly available "nice" grades available.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"Why don't you address my fact about the purchase of a PSA 6 with paper loss for $5000? That is more of the jest of this thread. "<br /><br />The 'jest of this thread' was on a PSA 6 with paper loss that went for $5K? Did anyone else know that? What did I miss?

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Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>If someone bought a PSA 6 with paper loss, they screwed up, pure and simple.<br />They assumed a PSA 6 wouldn't have a flaw like that and didn't look closely at the card before they pulled the trigger. <br /><br />I don't know the exact card you are referring to, but is a real (w/o paper loss)PSA 6 worth 5k?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Everyone would love to own the best, but most people are realistic and will settle for what they can afford. Sadly, our society has twisted many peoples minds to the point where they will bankrupt themselve to kepp up with Jones, becuase they believe that is what every good American should do. Our society is also highly competive, which explains the existance and competativeness of the set registry.<br /><br />I used to fit both those descriptions and went thru a major life change that has put me on the other extreme of those American dreams. Personally, I'm much happier about my situation in life now than I ever was when I was making a ton of money and owned a lot of pretty things. I do give thanks for all the people that do try to live up to the American dream because it allows me to enjoy the things I do without having to go thru stress and agrivation. I also need these people to keep the American economy afloat, because if everyone started living like I do, the American economic system would collapse. I am the anti-consumer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, we're going to have to send in a team from Vienna to examine you. Why do you think that people that spend a lot of money on cards do so to "keep up with the Joneses?" Who the hell even hangs out with anyone else on the Registry lists? You want to know why I spend what I do on cards? I do it because I WANT to and I CAN. Has nothing to do with peer pressure. Do you honestly think that people spend what they do on baseball cards because of wanting to keep up with their neighbors? I find it hilarious that the way you rationalize spending small amounts of cash on cards is that you wouldn't want to spend a lot of money because "keeping up with the Joneses" is too painful to bear. Dude, we live in America not North Korea. Believe it or not, I like working hard, being successful and spending ridiculous amounts of money on a hobby that I love. This has nothing to do with keeping up with anyone - because everyone I am close with who has cash does not buy cards. Why you feel the need to denigrate the fact that people who spend a lot of money on cards are somehow foolish - because that is exactly what you are saying. To twist Dice Clay's words a bit, how do you think people that make enough money to spend tons on cards got that way - by being dumb and lazy?

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />thanks for answering my question rationally.<br /><br />As far as the T202 PSA 6 with paper loss on front for $5000, yes it does exist, It no longer is on ebay I should have copied the image. The 3 areas of paper loss were obvious and I don't know how they could be missed by the graders or the buyers.<br /><br />as far as the being the jest of the question yes it is. Transactions such as this are proof that people are buying the holder and not the card just to one up someone no matter the price. I want to try and understand why in the world you would be the holder and not the card?<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Lee,<br /><br />I think that in the pursuit of a completed Registry set occasionally one will buy a card that they don't particularly love just to slot it in the set. That being said, I don't think I'd spend more than a few bucks on a PSA 8 or 7 that was horribly centered or otherwise was clear didn't belong in that graded holder. To spend $30 on a PSA 6 with paper loss (I'd love to see that one by the way) is not, therefore, that big a deal in my eyes; however to spend big dollars and SMR value for a PSA 6 with paper loss is probably dopey - unless the SMR value is way too low.<br /><br />Jeff

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Unfortunately I went to SmartCollector and searched the Ebay history for the past 120 days, and could not see any PSA 6 T202s that sold for more than $3800, and none had paper loss that I could see, so I guess the transaction in question happened more than 4 months ago.<br /><br />In any event, I see the point that you're trying to make, Lee, but I also think you're taking an exception and trying to make it the rule. There are any number of reasons why that particular card sold for as much as it did. Perhaps the person was a "cert buyer" looking to inflate their position on the registry with an overgraded card. Perhaps the person was careless and did not see the paper loss. Perhaps the buyer wanted to win the card, and set a very high snipe to ensure that they would - and someone else did the same thing, driving the price up extraordinarily high (I've had this happen to me, though never for $5K). Perhaps the buyer thought the paper loss was just a bad scan - who knows, maybe it even was.<br /><br />The reality is that it's not common to see a PSA 6 with paper loss, and it's less common to see someone overpay for one. So I think this is probably a relatively isolated incident.<br /><br />I see cards sell for what I think are outrageous prices almost every day. Other days, I see cards sell for much less than what I think they're worth. Sometimes they sell for just the right amount. I've been on the buying end of all three of those scenarios, as well.<br /><br />Bottom line is that while some of us might view a transaction as "overpaying", the winning bidder may be completely comfortable with it. Who cares? Why is it an issue? And who's to say it has anything whatsoever to do with the registry?<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />(Edited to address the correct Behrens)

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, I wasn't talking about cards specifically, but the American cosumer mentality in general. If you don't think Keeping Up With Jones is part of the registry phenomana, then you are wrong. It's the same reason peole have to have bigger, better, faster, newer, no matter the object may be. It could be a house, car, watch or baseball cards. It's a deeply ingrained part of the American psyche.<br /><br />If I were to win the lottery, my collecting habits would not change. I would still buy low grade cards, I'd still drive my $500 vehicle from the junkyard, etc. I'm a bad American and refuse to buy into the "be a good consumer" BS. I'd don't need the best to make myself look better or to feel better about myself. Basically, Americans are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic while it's sinking.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>We seem to have a "class warfare" thread about once a year, usually a few months before the National. <br /><br />I've been on both sides of the aisle, so to speak, since I can "waste" a lot more money on cards than some but not even a fraction of what others spend. In other words, I share all of your perspectives. If you have the $$ to buy high end cards and it floats your boat, great. If you don't or simply prefer to collect the least expensive cards you can find, that's great too. Remember, it is just trading paper (money) for cardboard (cards) that none of us can take with us in the end. <br /><br />I will say this as to the registry concept. I am in a highly competitive "alpha male" profession. The LAST thing I want to do w/my leisure time is compete. I reject the registry conceptually for that reason. Just my preference. I prefer to use my card collecting as a chance to meet and spend time with good folks who share my passion for baseball and its history. If some folks want to compete with others over who has the "better" cards, fine, but I won't be playing along. <br /><br />Edited to say: hey, I'm #100!!!

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Posted By: <b>Rich klein</b><p>And we should never make fun of a collector because he/she seemingly spends too much on a card or because a collector only wants a "beater" because he/she are dedicated collectors trying to finish a set/collection as cheaply as possible.<br /><br />As long as we understand:<br /><br />Everyone will make a mistake<br /><br />Not everyone can afford all the cards/collectibles they want<br /><br />No one should make fun of someone for their collecting pursuit<br /><br />We'll all have a happier board and Leon and myself won't have anything to talk about when we do lunch in the near future <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Rich

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Posted By: <b>Spencer Wolff</b><p> A lot of these prewar sets, and others I'm sure, are tough to do with help, maybe impossible without it. Some cards never hit ebay or major auctions. Some cards go from collector to collector, and if you don't know other collectors who share your particular interest, then you may miss out. Or another way, you may come across something that you like, but someone else may love it, and it's nice to pass something on to someone who is really passionate about what they are doing. Both of which are more difficult to do without the registry. I think those guys who spend the big bucks, it's not just an investment, they love it. Otherwise, they would just buy rental property or something. <br /><br /> As for T206collectors thoughts on SGC being so much better than PSA, did anyone see the SGC 50/4 Joe Jackson '14 Cracker Jack on ebay? Listed several times over several months for $11,500. The one with a completely rounded lower left corner! Did anyone see the PSA 4 Jackson on ebay that just sold for $13,300? One of those was VG-EX, and it wasn't in the SGC holder. The SGC would be a 3 if holdered with PSA, and an average 3 at that. I have had 20+ SGC cards come back from PSA without crossing because they were 'miss graded' by SGC. So, SGC doesn't cross easily to PSA, similar to your stated problem with crossing PSA to SGC. Sometimes mistakes are made.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Was this the 1914 Cracker Jack you were talking about?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1145063268.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Spencer</b><p>I'm guessing you are attempting to take a shot at me. But good point, because the Jackson in an SGC 50/4 looks the same as this Wagner PSA 3 you show that I just bought. And this Wagner is not a good 3, lower end for sure, if it were a better looking 3, it would have gone for $4,500 and not the $3,000 I spent. So, I'm happy..Whoopeee.

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>...but I thought I'd chime in as one who's gone from being very enthusiastic about PSA's registry - mainly with hockey cards, I have to note - to thinking seriously about joining the Slab Liberation Army. <br /><br />I was never insanely competitive with building sets but I did like to have cards that were as nice as I could afford. Plus registries do a fabulous job of tapping into collectors' neurotic side. (Mine is considerable.) And having a few sets listed was a good way to make some connections both for card deals and for just shootin' the breeze. (For what it's worth, I haven't noticed that as much in baseball as in hockey.)<br /><br />Over time, though, it just seemed increasingly absurd to pay three to four times the price of a PSA 7 for a PSA 8 when the 8 might just be marginally better looking than the 7. Or not as appealing in a few cases. Coupled with my growing cynicism toward the grading industry in general, that realization spelled the end of collecting high-grade post-war cards for me.<br /><br />I still have a couple of nice hockey sets from 1910 and 1923 listed and was even pretty active with one of them recently, but most of my hobby time and money has been devoted to prewar baseball over the last year. Almost all of it has either been or has wound up in PSA holders, but I'm at the point where it just seems foolish to conintue with PSA and with grading in general.<br /><br />I doubt that PSA's ability to detect trimmed or altered cards is markedly better than my own. My grading is at least as consistent as theirs and takes into account my idiosyncratic preferences. And my ability to identify players and cards can't be any less accurate than theirs. So I guess I'm basically paying a premium for graded cards and paying to have cards graded so that I can make use of an online checklist and use PSA as an image hosting service. It very recently dawned on me that I could do that much more cheaply with Excel and a site like imagevent.com. <br /><br />Now if I can just overcome inertia.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Spencer: it is hard to say whether the SGC cards did not cross to PSA because they were "misgraded" or because they were in SGC holders. The only way to tell would be to crack them and send them in raw. I personally do not trust PSA to be objective as to another service's holders. <br /><br />Prices: I agree with the poster who refuses to spend mega bucks on an 8 common. There is a set of 1948 Leaf boxing in Mastro that is selling for 10X the price of a normal nice set because it is the #1 registry set. That's a lot of extra value allocated to a registry position. The market obviously exists; to say otherwise is simply wrong, but I prefer my nice average 5.5 set that cost well under 2K<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Right on, Steve Yawitz!!!! Bust 'em out!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>As always Yawie makes alot of sense. However, he did not state two obvious reasons why it is still beneficial to have cards graded. One would be the protection value the slab affords with the other being resale. It is just a plain fact in the internet age that if you want to sell these cards then graded is the way to go.<br /><br />JMO<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>...but I think the protection angle is overstated. I can't recall really mangling a card since the time in maybe '87 or so when I accidentally kneeled on an '85 Fleer Eric Davis rookie. Not saying it hasn't happened since that fateful day when I wrecked my big card show acquisition, but I'd be willing to bet that PSA has inflicted at least as much wear on my cards as I have in the six years that I've been submitting.<br /><br />The value question is admittedly trickier for me. The nice thing about collecting PSA 1-4 prewar stuff - with the occasional splurging on a 5 - is that I feel most of the "value" is a function of the cardboard itself and not the plastic and label. If I had cracked out my '53 Parkhurst set before selling it, I would've taken a bath; If I were to crack out my modest T206 collection before selling it, I'm guessing that the realized prices would only be slightly lower than what they would be if I were to sell them graded - say the cost of the grading give or take a few bucks. <br /><br />On my PSA 5's and on some of my E cards the disparity would probably be more, so if I do join Mr. Wakefield in the Slab Liberation Army, I might first sell those cards. I dunno yet. I feel like I'm at a crossroads of sorts and am still trying to figure out what makes the most sense.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Spencer,<br /><br />I dont want to take shots and I dont want to continue the sgc vs. psa who is better debate, but I have got to say, that wagner is not a low end 3. Any card that actually has a piece of the card torn off is a 1 or 1.5 at best. Big difference in my book b/t a rounded corner and a missing corner. For example, as much as I would have liked a 20 on this card, I think the grade is correct:<br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/graded_kelly.jpg"><br /><br />Regardless, the wagner is still a nice card and you should be happy with it.

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Posted By: <b>Spencer Wolff</b><p>Warsharlaw- I hear you, I send a lot of raw cards in as well, some grade what I thought, some don't. My point was in response to t206collectors statement of SGC being better than PSA, this being the case because he tries to cross PSA cards to SGC and they don't cross, they missgrade. So, your logic of PSA not crossing SGC out of spite, perhaps it works the same the other way, SGC doesn't cross PSA out of spite.<br /> My purpose of writing initially, was to say that I have similar problems crossing SGC to PSA as he does crossing PSA to SGC. It works the same for both sides. That's it. <br /> As for a card's corner being rounded or missing a piece, how does a cracker jack on such thin stock, have one perfectly rounded corner with three others being square? They break, they don't round perfectly, like that SGC 50/4 Jackson. I'm not alone among CJ collectors, that some rounded corners on '14 CJ's are altered. Pieces break off, they don't become perfectly rounded, unless someone rounds off the area where the piece broke off. And I think there is a difference between a piece missing in the border and one that extends into the the actual picture of the card. Just my opinion, not an argument, collecting cards is fun, and we all have different opinions, and it's good to share them.<br />