17 new Hall of Famers! [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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02-27-2006, 12:06 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffChris, If it makes you feel any better, I would have flown to Cooperstown and picketed the HOF if Minoso got in unless literally all 38 of the other Negro Leaguers got in as well. I agree that he should be in, but I take into consideration his playing days in Cuba as well as the Majors. His Negro League stint was so short I don't even consider it when evaluating his career. He shouldn't have even been on this list and it would have been an injustice had he gotten in this way. Kenny, Why couldn't Buck O'Neil's entire baseball life have been considered instead of just his playing days? They obviously wanted some Negro League executives and owners in, why not Buck? Oddly, had he been a worse player I think he might have had a better chance of getting in. Maybe some voters considered him a player, while others as a manager/coach/scout/ambassador. He is not Hall-worthy in any one of those categories. I agree with you that when you add them up, Buck O'Neil should be in the Hall of Fame. -Ryan

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02-27-2006, 12:06 PM

Posted By: dennisi hope this is only a temporary setback for minnie and the veterens comitee puts him in.

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02-27-2006, 12:25 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffMost glaring omissions: 1. Dick Redding 2. John Beckwith 3. Dick Lundy 4. Buck O'Neil There are others like Oms, Marcelle and Brewer that also should have gotten in before some of the ones that did, but Redding and Beckwith are the only two that I would truly call mistakes. Most surprising inductees: 1. Sol White 2. Alejandro Pompez 3. Andy Cooper None of those are undeserving, but there are others that are much more deserving. The problem is, Sol White was a good player but not HOF-caliber. He is in because he wrote a book. If Sol White is in, Buck O'Neil should be in. Neither of them as players, but both of them for their overall contributions to the game. -Ryan

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02-27-2006, 12:30 PM

Posted By: ChadI'd include him as a glaring omission as well. It'll be interesting to see the encyclopedia the HOF is going to publish to get an idea of what they based their votes on. I like Andy Cooper, but I'm surprised he got in and I had him rated higher than most people. Home Run Johnson was a truly great player. He hit better than Ben Taylor and played shortstop and he played at a high level forever. I really hope that the HOF comes to its senses and reapproaches the NEgro elagues again in a few years after the dust has settled. The work here isn't done yet. --Chad

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02-27-2006, 12:31 PM

Posted By: t206KingWell to me, Negro leaguers shouldnt be in. i'm not racist or anything but its like electing minor leaguers into the majors. ppl say it was like major league baseball. but how can u compare the two leagues? just by words? or the players? doesnt make sense.

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02-27-2006, 12:34 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIt's gratifying to see all those fine players who toiled for years without recognition finally get their due. On the other hand, inducting 17 players in one day does dilute the process. As for collectors, now those who collect HOFers need to find 17 more cards, many that are extremely rare or don't exist. It's going to be nuts if every time one of these player's cards or autographs comes up for sale a hundred guys will have to bid on them at the same time. Some sense of order is needed here.

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02-27-2006, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffBarry, Only 7 of them have cards. -Ryan

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02-27-2006, 12:36 PM

Posted By: Ryan Christofft206king, No, you don't sound racist at all. -Ryan

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02-27-2006, 12:37 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Boy am I glad that my niche collecting doesn't require me to have one of every HOF player... holy smoke, it's going to be the deepest pockets picking up the cards of the new HOF players that have a limited number of cards to choose from...

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02-27-2006, 12:39 PM

Posted By: ChadYou saved me from writing a long post I'd probably regret. --Chad

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02-27-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: ChadAnd to think, Matt Goebbel had one on the BST thread a month ago for 1500 bucks. Talk about an underpriced card! --Chad

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02-27-2006, 12:41 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldGood for Sol White, he should be in... He was much more to baseball than just a book. I think 17 is too many, but I'm not big on political correctness, and that is what this is, although I do have respect for Frank Robinson. And Buck should have gone in. I'd have been happy with Buck and Sol. But since reading Mr. James' book about the politics of the Hall, I've come to some conclusions from which I cannot be dissuaded... 1. Too many players are in the Hall. 2. After understanding the origins and purposes of the leagues and their formation, and the evils of gambling, I firmly believe Pete Rose should be allowed inside the Hall for the day, any day he buys an admission ticket, as a vistor/patron. 3. And that ever since they let Kirby Puckett and Gary Carter in there, it isn't really that big of a deal. Buck should have gone in ahead of about 3 dozen of the current members, and all of the 17 just announced. I've reached a point in life where I just don't know if my thoughts have matured or manured, I just know I have them, and I'm pretty firmly set in my ways. I don't mind living in a democracy, and tagging along with the majority decissions. Just so long as the majority doesn't automatically presume that they are right all of the time. And this could be one of those times.

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02-27-2006, 12:42 PM

Posted By: barrysloateRyan- Only seven have cards, but what about wire photos, team photos, and autographs? How are all the collectors going to fill in the holes? It will be impossible. And I agree with Frank that there are already too many HOFers. You can't put Babe Ruth and Bill Mazeroski in the same category.

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02-27-2006, 12:49 PM

Posted By: PaulHal, I'm curious to know what you plan to do about Pete Hill. I'm looking for a satisfying explanation why neither one of us needs him. Paul

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02-27-2006, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Chad1.Invest in clones so you can harvest their organs and keep yourself alive for a couple of hundred years. 2. Pray that Matt's descendants don't like baseball. Kidding Matt! I'm kidding! (sort of...) --Chad

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02-27-2006, 12:55 PM

Posted By: Matt GoebelBarry, This day isn't a surprise, we've known it has been coming for years, so there are some of us collectors who were prepared. Anyway, there have been feeding frenzies for E107's, N167's and other rare and important cards, so why not Negro League HOFers? Frank, Buck is a greast guy and a very sexy choice, but I think if you were to ask him he would say all 12 players that were elected were more deserving than he was. OH - and if wanting to keep all Negro Leaguers out of the HOF isn't racist, then i don't know what is. While we're at it let's kick out Aaron, Mays and Clemente for good measure!

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02-27-2006, 01:06 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldMatt, I believe you... Buck would say that. Would those guys, though? That is part of why Buck should be in.

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02-27-2006, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Scott GrossI think Effa Manley falls into to "Tinker to Evers to Chance" name recognition category. If you gave the original list to a array of baseball fans (from obsessive to casual), and asked them to pick out a recognizable name and give a one sentence bio, the majority would say: "Effa Manley, she was a black businesswoman who owned a Negro League team." Hate to say it, but if not for this board, I (closer to the obsessive end of scale) would not know who Pete Hill is (please excuse dangling participle). And ........ I have absolutely no problem with that. Name recognition is a (if not "the") fundamental part of business, and baseball is a business. Why is the HOF photo of Mrs. Manley a beautifully posed professional portrait? Because Mrs. Manley posed for a beautifully posed professional portrait. If it were not for self-promotion, we'd still just be playing pickup games every other Sunday at the Athletic Club of Philadelphia.

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02-27-2006, 01:09 PM

Posted By: WesleyScott, Effa Manley, according to the AP article, is white.

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02-27-2006, 01:12 PM

Posted By: ChadAndy Cooper, by all acoounts, was a hell of a human being. In fact, he was Buck's manager when Buck first came to the KC Monarchs. Everybody seemed to love the guy. Sadly, he died suddenly at the age of 41. I'm sure Buck will be disappointed today, but I be he's jazzed that his former mentor, Cooper, got in. He's probably also ecstatic Willard Brown, his former teammate and player, made it and that JL Wilkinson, the man who paid his salary got in. All in all, I think it's a happy day for Buck because it's a happy day for the Monarchs. --Chad

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02-27-2006, 01:21 PM

Posted By: Jeff ShermanThe scuttlebutt was that Buck's playing days numbers weren't that impressive, but NO ONE has been a greater asset to the consciousness-raising of the sports fan than he has, and its just criminal that he isn't given the ultimate recognition for his ultimate ambassadorship.... maybe next year.... he is such a class act, and a joy to listen to, I hope he is around when the electors wake up and bestow the accolade he most fittingly deserves....

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02-27-2006, 01:24 PM

Posted By: Matt GoebelChad - well said! Frank, I'm actually not disagreeing that Buck O'neil should be a HOFer, I was more just taking exception to your comment that he is MORE deserving than the other guys. Matt

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02-27-2006, 01:25 PM

Posted By: jay behrensMy understading is that the committee was a one time deal. I don't think we will see any more Negro Leaguers inducted unless it is thru the VC. Minoso and O'Niel may eventually get in thru the VC, but I doubt seriously we will see anyone else from NLs inducted any time in the near future, if ever again. Frank, I know Carter wasn't a popular choice, but who was a better catcher in the 80s? I would much rather have had him then Fisk, Parrish or Boone as their prime days as a catcher were already past them by then. As for Puckett, he got for a number of reasons. He his numbers weren't spectacular, but they were respectable. He was a great ambassador for the game while he played. The thing clinched him for it was the 1991 WS and his "climb my back and I'll carry you guys" statement and then lived up to it. Being a media darling helps a lot. He's not the perfect hoice, but he is more than worthy. Now if you want to talk about Ross Youngs, Marranville and other questionable players from the 30s, then you've got a better argument for unworthy choices. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-27-2006, 01:27 PM

Posted By: James FeaginFrom the HOF website: "The research resulted in a raw narrative and bibliography of nearly 800 pages and a statistical database, which includes 3,000 day-by-day records, league leaders and all-time leaders. The research was culled from box scores from 128 newspapers of sanctioned league games played from 1920-54. With the research now complete, the study includes sanctioned league game box scores from almost 100% of games played in the 1920s, in excess of 90% of the box scores from games played in the 1930s and box scores from 50-70% of games played in the 1940s and 50s, during which time the various leagues began to disband and newspapers ceased to report game information. The end result is the most comprehensive compilation of statistics on the Negro leagues that have ever been accumulated." I suppose the nominations and inductions of the 17 were based on these newly compiled statistics? If they weren't, when will these stats be released so that we can judge for ourselves if they are "Hall" worthy? I never have had a problem with the caliber of player that the Negro Leaguers were, but legends spin legends which spin legends. Will these statisics actually quantify how many HR's Josh Gibson hit, the Wins and SO's of Paige, and how many SB's Cool Papa Bell had. I hope the committee had some facts to back these inductions up, and not some myths or legends of how great these players were purported to be. Otherwise, it will look like Hall of Fame affirmative action (Frankie Frisch where are you) if it comes out that some of these players were just good, and not great. Jim Jim

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02-27-2006, 01:29 PM

Posted By: MikeMr. Wakefield. I am a pre war collector through and through. Always have been. But I must disagree with you on the Kirby Puckett issue. He had 2000 hits in his first 10 seasons. I believe only he and Paul Waner did that. I am not a huge fan of his, but you must admit that is quite a feat. Not his fault he took it in the noggin'. Griffey was once quoted as saying" that Puck was the best player in the game" while he was active. Just throwing my two cents worth in. If Puck had played in the negro leagues, everybody would be screaming bloody murder if he wasn't elected into the hall. Not trying to start anything, just a comment.

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02-27-2006, 01:37 PM

Posted By: howardI don't agree that is is necessarily racist to say that Negro Leaguers should be kept out of the Hall of Fame but I think it is ridiculous to compare them to minor leaguers. Minor leaguers were not major leaguers, for the most part, because they were not good enough for the majors. True, many years ago there were some very good minor leagues that held onto their star players but the best ones still usually ended up in the majors. Black players, on the other hand, were BARRED from the majors, so even the best ones never got a shot. Is there any reason to believe that the best of them were not Hall of Fame caliber players? Thanks, Howard

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02-27-2006, 01:41 PM

Posted By: Adam Smith"OH - and if wanting to keep all Negro Leaguers out of the HOF isn't racist, then i don't know what is. While we're at it let's kick out Aaron, Mays and Clemente for good measure!" That is asinine. Aaron, Mays and Clemente played and excelled in the major league.

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02-27-2006, 01:45 PM

Posted By: rp60Its a big list..Funny how this vets group has no problem with former negro leagers. I wonder if the same size list could be put together with white 19th century players?

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02-27-2006, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffAdam, Mays and Aaron DID play in the Negro Leagues. I think the point was that had Mays, Clemente and Aaron been born 20 years earlier, all of them would have spent their careers in the Negro Leagues, not the Majors. We'd be having this discussion about why Mays, Aaron and Clemente didn't deserve to be in the Hall because they played in the Negro Leagues or because there are already too many players in the Hall. For those who believe there are already too many players in the Hall of Fame, please answer this question: Of the 17 just elected to day, which ones aren't worthy and why? -Ryan P.S. rp60 (maybe use your name when you post), do you think there are 17 19th century players not already in the HOF that should be? I know of a few that certainly should. Are there 17? There definitely are some other 19th century players that should be in. The question is, how many?

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02-27-2006, 02:03 PM

Posted By: AnonymousMike Kirby didn't have 2000 hits his first 10 seasons.... unless you are counting women he beat on. He had 2304 hits in 12 years.... a HOF season??? He had 308 hits his last 2 years, that means he had 1996 hits the first 10. A bunch of hits, but not enough. If that is what it takes, let KP step back outside, and put Vada Pinson in, or Lave Cross. I'd like to see George Van Haltren in there, or Fred Lange. If I could put one guy in, it would be Ed Reulbach. His connections with taking up for players in the Players' Association really hampered his playing opportunities at the end of his career. Otherwise, he'd have numbers that would demand his induction. How does it go... Every year Ed pitched his walks plus hits allowed totalled less than his innings pitched, something no HOF pitcher can claim. Pitched 2 shutouts in ML in one day. One of the best pitching performances in a WS game in the first 50 years of the WS. He should be in. But I'd rather have the ability to pull a couple of dozen out. A lot of folks liked Kirby, especially the press. His 1987 WS helped his Hall vote. A likeable guy. But not HOF material. I used to work on acquiring HOF autographs, and have a bunch. But when that meant writing Kirby and Gary Carter (GARY CARTER, why not Ted Simmons before Gary [Ted has more hits than KP...]) that is when I backed off on it. I'd rather have Simmons' autograph than KP or GC. Still, it is obvious you love your baseball, so keep Kirby on a pedestal. Knowing a lot about baseball is like knowing a lot about whittling. Baseball is a lot like church, many attend, few understand. And I must be wrong about my feelings about the Hall, all of those smart baseball writers voted him in.

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02-27-2006, 02:21 PM

Posted By: GenaroJohn Holway is as much a authority on the subject as anyone. Holway states in his book that black big leaguers won 57.1% of the games against white major leaguers. And Don’t tell me when white players didn’t want to win vs. the games were very spirited. Babe Ruth struck out 3 times vs. Satchel Paige and said he’s glad he didn’t have to face him in the majors.

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02-27-2006, 02:42 PM

Posted By: jay behrensSimmons had a long, productive career. That's it. He was in the top 10 in MVP voting once. The only thing he consistantly ranked in the top 10 in hitting was GIDP. He never lead the league in any major offensive catagory and his player similarity score is Alan Trammell. Cart on the hand was in the top 6 in MVP voting 4 times, lead the league in RBI one year. He also have 3 Gold Gloves and % Silver Slugger awards. Simmons had one SS. Carter's similarity score is Johnny Bench. I guess bench doesn't belong in the HOF either. Puckett is like Bonds, you either love him or you hate him. If Koufax can get in with the mediocre career numbers posted, then why not Puckett? No one is claiming he is most deserving, but he is far from the least deserving. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-27-2006, 02:46 PM

Posted By: Frank Wakefieldwho uses that unarmed opponent stuff.... I need that quote.

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02-27-2006, 02:53 PM

Posted By: howardWhile the Negro League players obviously did well against white pros, using Holway's research is problematic. Holway considered a team to be major league if it included just five major leaguers (including the pitcher). The white barnstormers were often forced to use minor leaguers because many top big leaguers refused to play against blacks.

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02-27-2006, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldCarter 2092 hits, Simmons 2472 Carter 371 doubles, Simmons 483 Carter 31 triples, Simmons 47 Carter 324 home runs, Simmons 248 who played in cozy Shay, who in the expanses of humid Busch? Carter .262 average, Simmons .285 Carter .335 OBP, Simmons .348 Carter .439 slugging, Simmons .437 ballparks... who was it that remained in baseball, respected for his knowledge of the game???? Now 3 things occur to me... 1. Gary Carter got in because of New York media and bias and prejudice and ignorance... 2. And the real focus of this thread is that 17 got in, Buck wasn't one of them, the Hall is for baseball, not just white baseball, that I still think Buck should go in before some of the 17, that the Hall has long ago become diluted with the likes of ________ and _______. And 3. Maybe Buck will reap the greater share of glory if he's inducted separately, soon, and while still alive enough to enjoy it. Peace.

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02-27-2006, 03:07 PM

Posted By: howardWhy argue about Simmons and Carter when we all should be wondering what the heck Rick ferrel and Ray Schalk are doing in the Hall?

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02-27-2006, 03:10 PM

Posted By: David VarghaMaybe I missed it, but who are the seven with cards and would you also be kind enough to list their cards for us? DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-27-2006, 03:10 PM

Posted By: rp60Most of these games where played either before or after the season..And while it seems obvious that the black players had more to prove. White players played not for the honor and pride of the white race, but rather for a pay check..

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02-27-2006, 03:14 PM

Posted By: Colt McClellandI live in Kansas City, and one of the local news channels just aired a local press conference where Buck made a few comments. As some earlier posts on this thread suggested, Buck was all about being positive and supporting the 17 who got in. He said he would be in Cooperstown to support the 17 new members. He was basically every bit the great ambassador we've come to know and love. He said that God's been very good to him, so don't shed a tear for old Buck. I love this guy. I think he will get in someday, as he should. I just hope he's still alive to enjoy it.

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02-27-2006, 03:27 PM

Posted By: Chris CountsHere's a quote I just found from Minnie in response to today's announcement ... "I know that baseball fans have me in their own Hall of Fame -- the one in their hearts," the 83-year-old Minoso said. "That matters more to me than any official recognition. "If it's meant to be, it's meant to be, and I am truly honored to be considered. I've given my life to baseball, and the game has given me so much." No doubt Minnie will one day make it to the HOF, but like Buck, it would sure be nice to see his big grin up on that podium in Cooperstown posing next to his plaque ...

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02-27-2006, 03:48 PM

Posted By: warshawlawHOF voting is more about perception than specific statistics. Puckett, Joss, Youngs, Koufax, Dean all prove that point, as do Mattingly, Sutton, Blyleven, John. Puckett and Mattingly have virtually identical career numbers but Mattingly had two distinct careers: the first half was all world instant first ballot HOF second coming of Lou Gehrig, then he got hurt and had a second half that was more Will Clark/Mark Grace. Puckett was a stellar player who was cut down in mid-career. We don't have a several year period of declining play to watch. Don Sutton waited for years to get into the HOF despite being over 300 wins; Don Drysdale scooted in with around 90 fewer wins because he had a couple of great years and was perceived as a money player. To me, Sutton is more Eppa Rixey or Ted Lyons: a very accomplished player who isn't really in the pantheon of greats. Blyleven and John fall within the same category as Sutton, IMHO. Really fine players but not worthy of the Hall. The ones I feel for are the guys who went to the Majors well after they were ready because of race and who are on the cusp as a result, like Minoso or Don Newcombe. Newk told me that he was told by the Dodgers that he was held back for three years in the minors because the Dodgers were not going to bring up that many black players all at once. Now add 50-60 wins to his career taking him over 200 with a very high winning %, ROY, MVP and Cy Young award as he has and you are looking at a HOFer. Poor Min (Cab Calloway reference) has the same problem. He wasn't perceived as enough of a pioneer to get there as Doby and Irvin did despite a very similar career. O'Neill falls within the same hard to define place as Lefty O'Doul does. He has a lot to recommend him as a HOFer but not enough in any one category to cause the voters to rally to him. Have to disagree with the comment re LaSorda. As much as I hated him when he was managing against my Yankees in the series, the division titles, four pennants and two WS wins qualifies him as a HOF manager, IMHO. When he retires, I think Joe Torre will also get in as a manager for his run in the Bronx, as will Bobby Cox for the ATL.

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02-27-2006, 03:52 PM

Posted By: Max WederMy thoughts on the HOF announcement: Sad that Robert Peterson passed away so soon before. One of the defining moments of my interest in baseball was finding his book Only the Ball was White, and its striking cover,in the Saskatoon Public Library. As a 14 year old I had a somewhat advanced historical knowledge before finding that book but it was mindblowing to find out about these stars that I'd never heard of before. Max <img src="http://www.betweenthecovers.com/images/69148.jpg">

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02-27-2006, 04:18 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffMax, I agree that it's sad Peterson wasn't alive to see this day. Fortunately, he cast his votes on February 10th, one day before he died. From what I understand, they were going to tally the votes from the other 11 voters before openning the envelope with his ballot. This means that Peterson probably cast the deciding vote for several of the 17 who were elected. It seems only fitting. -Ryan

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02-27-2006, 04:22 PM

Posted By: RhysI am not going to comment on whether I agree or disagree with the recent inductions. However, just so that people on this forum know, there are not autograph examples of several of the players inducted. I have owned examples of a few of the remaining players and they vary in rarity, but just about all will be VERY expensive after this induction. It is the belief of the big Cuban/Negro League autograph experts who have been searching for decades that several of them were completely illiterate. Rhys

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02-27-2006, 04:56 PM

Posted By: Scott GrossOn HOF topic: "Manley was born March 27, 1900. Her birth, like much of her life, was controversial. Within the black community, Manley rarely discussed her heritage, and most people assumed she was a light-skinned black. But Manley claimed in an interview in 1973 that she was white. Her mother, Bertha Ford Brooks, was white, of German and Asian-Indian descent. Effa explained that Bertha, who earned a living as a seamstress, became pregnant by her white employer, John M. Bishop, a wealthy Philadelphian. Manley's black stepfather, Benjamin Brooks, sued Bishop and received a settlement of $10,000 before he and Bertha divorced. Bertha remarried, and Effa was raised in a household with a black step-father and black half-siblings, and so chose to live as a black person." -- Aimee Crawford, MLB.com (Italics added) A fascinating person; perception is greater than reality .... Off HOF topic: I don't know who was the best catcher in the '80's, but we all know who was the best pitcher ... <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-27-2006, 04:56 PM

Posted By: PaulI didn't realize Robert Peterson died before today's announcement. That is sad. Does anyone know why he cast his votes in advance? I thought the idea was that the committee would meet, discuss the candidates and base their votes at least partly on the discussion. Did he know he was going to die?

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02-27-2006, 05:14 PM

Posted By: Kenny ColeRay Brown, Willard Brown, Mendez, Mackey, Hill, Cooper, Torriente. Kenny Cole

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02-27-2006, 05:34 PM

Posted By: howardWhile it may or may not be true that Newk would have been brought up three years earlier (I suspect he was held back one or two years) what actually hurt him more was his two years of military service and the awful season he had the year he returned. That combined with the year or two he missed in the late forties might have cost him close to a hundred wins.

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02-27-2006, 05:35 PM

Posted By: tbobWhat a frigging bad joke. Awful... Yes she was active in the civil rights movement and yes she helped her husband run the Newark Eagles, but she got in for all the wrong reasons. She got in because she was a real ambassador for the Negro League players, like Buck wasn't and isn't. C'mon! I am still mad about Tony O. the most feared hitter in the American League (according to the top pitchers of that era)during the 1960's and early 1970's and a defensive demon with speed and a rifle arm not being in and watching guys like Billy Williams, Bruce Sutter, Bill Mazeroski and Kirby Puckett get in. Effa Manley? Let's do the politically correct thing and vote in the first woman in to the Hall. Give me a frigging break...

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02-27-2006, 05:44 PM

Posted By: BryanThe one good thing about Effa's selection is that it does answer the question of who is the worst HOF selection.

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02-27-2006, 06:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBob- you alluded to the problem when you referenced "politically correct." I've always suspected that a large number of players got in due to politics- having the right connections in the veterans committee, or being courted by a group of influential "lobbyists" who were close to the voters. No doubt players like Mays and Aaron get inducted no matter what, but too many marginal players have gotten in for all the wrong reasons. Yes, Effa Manley may have made a contribution to the Negro Leagues but maybe the time had finally come to have a woman in the hall.

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02-27-2006, 06:05 PM

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)Its hard to quibble with some of the choices in the 17 without knowing what the critera was...If its just solely on Negro/Pre-Negro League "black ball" contributions I guess I can stand Minnie and Buck not making it -- although it will greatly diminish from the induction ceremony itself since Bruce Sutter will be the only living inductee and both Minnie and Buck are among the finest and most admirable living ex-ballplayers as human beings (as opposed to Pete Rose, for example) I think Minnie and Buck both clearly belong based on the totality of their contributions to North American baseball -- which I believe the Veterans Comm. can address. I have some knowledge of the plus and minuses of the pure "player candidates" and the one I was most surprised NOT to see making it was Donaldson, one of the great Negro League Pitchers who also had the stats (such as they are) to back up his reputation and then some. Manley's selection would have bothered me if Cum Posie had not made it... As to the argument that 17 more 19th Century players belong, it doesn't fly for me and I'm a "19th Century fan". The only rationale for that many is if we use the worst 19th century player (McCarthy) as the baseline and go from there. Four or maybe five 19th Century sure, but otherwise it would further water down the HOF to add a bunch more. There is already one Freddy Lindstrom in the HOF -- we don't need his 19th Century equivalent. About (th hopefully facetious) suggestion that the Negro Leaguers don't belong in the Hall of Fame... It would be worse for the HOF than the excluded players if that happened because it would de-legitmize the whole enterprise. SO far I think I have 2 of the 7 -- I don't really expect to come by more than one or two more in the foreseeable future.<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1141092375.JPG">

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02-27-2006, 08:21 PM

Posted By: MikeI said Kirby had 2000 hits in his first 10 seasons. You come out and tell me that I am wrong. And then correct me by saying he had 1996 ? Come on....Pretty close to 2 Grand. And I do not have Kirby on a pedestal. I live in the Twin Cities, and have had plenty of contact with him. Both at the garbage dome, and in the community. I was simply spouting stats. I put very few people on pedestals. The ones I put up there are family and friends. Not athletes. I have thousands of cards. I collect them because I love the cards, the game, and the history. Yes, Puck belongs in the hall. He easily would have had over three thousand hits if he wouldn't have been beaned. But I suppose we could go back and pick out the dozens of other players who don't belong.

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02-27-2006, 09:29 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffHere is a checklist of all the cards of the newly elected HOFers that I am aware of: Raymond Brown 1. 1945-46 Felices 2. 1951-52 Denia Willard Brown 1. 1948-49 Toleteros 2. 1949-50 Toleteros (2 variations) 3. 1950 Dominican 4. 1950-51 Toleteros 5. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #32 6. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #72 7. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #93 8. 1950-51 Toleteros In Action #176 9. 1951-52 Denia 10. 1952 Dominican Andy Cooper 1. 1923-24 Billiken 2. 1923-24 Nacionales 3. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez Pete Hill 1. 1909 Cabanas 2. 1910 Punch Biz Mackey 1. 1924-25 Aguilitas Jose Mendez 1. 1910 Punch 2. 1923-24 Billiken 3. 1923-24 Nacionales 4. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez 5. 1924-25 Aguilitas Cristobal Torriente 1. 1923-24 Billiken 2. 1923-24 Nacionales 3. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez #62 4. 1923-24 Tomas Gutierrez #83 5. 1924-25 Aguilitas Sorry about hijacking this thread with a post not related to Kirby Puckett or Gary Carter. -Ryan

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02-28-2006, 03:58 AM

Posted By: RP60Simmons, Hodges, Minoso, Santo, Oliva, Rice, Parker, Dawson, Carter, Gossage, just to name 10 worthy off the top of my head...Such a large appointment of negro league players should not suprise anyone, since MLB and the HOF have adopted an apologist approach to all matters concerning race in baseball past and present..

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02-28-2006, 04:50 AM

Posted By: ChadMake an argument why a single one of the 17 elected don't deserve it. Seriously. These guys aren't in for political correctness, they're in because they're great players. Willard Brown was a great player. Ray Brown is one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Period. To say these guys are getting their due now because of political correctness or as an apology is just pure, unadulterated BS. Effa Manley and Alex Pompez are the only iffy choices, but they're not without their merits. As for the rest, I defy you to make a rational argument why they don't belong. --Chad

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02-28-2006, 05:33 AM

Posted By: RP60I dont think the people posting (myself included) feel that these players are not worthy..What I find interesting is the size of the group, and a woman included in a non-playing or managing role..Then again the HOF or MLB have never been even handed.

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02-28-2006, 05:59 AM

Posted By: ChadYes, it's stupid. But 25 years from now, what does it matter? They're in. Does anyone care that King Kelly got elected to the HOF in a mass group? Many of these players should have been in decades ago. It's about time they rectified that. As for Manley, there are plenty of executives/pioneers in the HOF who didn't play. She's the weakest inductee, but she's not without a case. It's not an unreasonable selection. I would rather Home Run Johnson or Buck or Dick Redding had been elected, but people need to understand how hard, allmost impossible it was, to keep a franchise stable in the Negro Leagues. And it was the fact that there were a few stable franchises that made various incarnations of the Negro Leagues possible. The Monarchs, the Grays and the Eagles were all able to do it, and all three of their operators are in the Hall. I would have only voted for Posey and Wilkinson, but I can see the committees point on Pompez and Manley. They're not enshrinees out of left field. --Chad

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02-28-2006, 07:04 AM

Posted By: David VarghaThanks for the list, Ryan! DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-28-2006, 08:29 AM

Posted By: Ryan Christoffrp60, I asked you before, but please post your damn name so we know who the hell you are. -Ryan

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02-28-2006, 08:57 AM

Posted By: pete1. Tommy Lasorda "HAD" to have gone in as a manager since he sucked as a player. 2. I think I would of changed my name (or nickname) if it was Cum Posey. 3. Adam, wanting to keep all the negro leaguers out of the hall of fame is not a "racist" remark, its a predujice remark, which is a "belief" that we all are intitled to and we are protected by the constitution's freedom of speech. On the other hand "kicking" the negro leaguers (or anyone) out of the hall of fame because of color, religion, etc. is a racist act, and considered to be a "hate" crime is NOT protected by the constitution. 4. so point 4 is that I agree with t206 to a certain degree but I "believe" that women ball players, negro ball players, minor league ball players, and even "band" ball players deserve some type of recognition in the hall of fame, a special section.

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02-28-2006, 09:22 AM

Posted By: ChadBut equating negro league players with minor leaguers, women ballplayers and "band" ball players is pretty condescending. They were major league caliber players who weren't allowed to play against whites. But more than that, the Negro Leagues WERE a major league, especially when the top teams played each other. The Homestead Grays would have been the best team in MLB in their dynasty years. They don't deserve to be marginalized with a special section. And thankfully, they won't be. Man, I'm really starting to repeat myself. I guess I just don't understand why it's so hard to recognize that these guys were as good as the white players their careers shadowed. If Willie Mays had spent his entire career in Birmingham competing against Aaron and Robinson and Campanella and Banks and Bob Gibson, would he not be as great a player as Mickey Mantle? Wouldn't it ne more iteresting to actually learn something about these guys and the leagues they played in than to dismiss them out of hand? Just because Andy Cooper is an unfamiliar name, does he deserve to be ignored? He wasn't unfamiliar to black baseball fans when he played. That white America wasn't paying attention doesn't decrease their talent or their accomplishments. The sin is ours, not his. Yesterday was a LONG time coming. And that's it for me. Back to waiting for the next fake Wagner thread. --Chad

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02-28-2006, 09:39 AM

Posted By: WesleyThere certainly seems to be a lot of backlash to the HOF admitting seventeen members at the same time by special committee vote. Time will tell but these recent entrants to the Hall may one day be seen as no different than players who gain entry by regular ballot. Perhaps in the long run they will be viewed as the same as regular ballot inductees rather than similar to veteran committee selections, managers, umpires, journalists and other special entry members who are honored in Cooperstown. Like Chad said, in twenty-five years maybe it will not matter.

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02-28-2006, 11:02 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThere are more than a few baseball historians, as well as former players, who actually felt the Negro League players were in fact better than the major leaguers! When they played barnstorming games, the major league teams always sent mediocre players. The thinking was if the major leaguers won, that would prove their superiority; and if the black players won, well, there was a built-in excuse that they weren't beating the best players anyway. If the majors sent their best players and lost, that would be a devastating blow to segregated baseball.

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02-28-2006, 11:27 AM

Posted By: Mark"The thinking was if the major leaguers won, that would prove their superiority; and if the black players won, well, there was a built-in excuse that they weren't beating the best players anyway. " Reminds me of this: <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/worldclassic2006/index" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/worldclassic2006/index</a>

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02-28-2006, 11:39 AM

Posted By: jay behrensThe reason so many players got elected at one time is because this is a one-time, special election. This will never happen again and the only way a NeLer can get in now is via the VC like every other ball player. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-28-2006, 11:44 AM

Posted By: identify7I can understand rookie card collectors not accepting pre-rookie cards because the player was not yet a MLB rookie. I can understand some people thinking that Negro Leaguers should not be in the HOF because they were not MLB players. The same could apply to umpires, owners, managers, Japanese Leaguers, Cuban Leaguers, etc. Evidence exists (Suzuki, Aaron, others) that Major League Baseball did and probably still does not have a talent monopoly in baseball. I agree that Maranville and Ruth are HOFers who bring different levels of talent to the baseball table. But the HOF is a tribute. Bestowed on those deserving, and withheld for reasons deemed valid. In recognition of those worthy of tribute some has been granted. More needs to be. I wish that the HOF was something other than it is. But it is not. There aren’t degrees of greatness, categories of recipients, nor fixed criteria for assessment of value. And there are errors, politics and judgements. The Hall of Fame; love it or leave it. I have chosen to leave it. I have no more regard for their choices and rationale than I do for grading companies who impose their evaluation criteria on our hobby. Somehow to my thinking tho, there are greater omissions outstanding than the enshrinement of Minoso.

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02-28-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: Matt GoebelI think part of the problem is that people think of it as the "Major League" baseball Hall of Fame, when it is in fact the "National" baseball Hall of Fame. No where at all is it limited to Major Leaguers.

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02-28-2006, 12:47 PM

Posted By: warshawlawThe election just made my collection a whole lot messier to complete. I try to get autographed tribute cards of the NLers (e.g. Perez Steele, etc.). How the *&*&% am I supposed to do that for most of these guys??? The idiots at the HOF are so inconsiderate of us collectors! J/K <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-28-2006, 02:24 PM

Posted By: petethat i didnt mean the caliber of negro ball players wasnt as high as the major league players, because its obvious that there are a lot of negro leaguers that deserve the honor, probably more than we know of, but the fact that it was a different league, just like minor leaguers or the women ball players...on the band ball players i think that a special section that highlights their careers like jackson and rose particularly, then point out the reason WHY they arent in the hall (and in no way am i back pedaling) pete-