Opinions on Soaking/Pressing [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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02-14-2006, 10:39 AM

Posted By: Josh K.How often as collectors do you do this? I have not soaked t206s but have soaked e121s to remove paper/glue on several occasions. Are there any types of cards that you would or wouldnt do this to? I dont have enough experience to answer. If soaking gives cards a better grade or just a better look, would you stay away from these cards if you knew they were cleaned-up? I would stay away from a card that was pressed to remove wrinkles or that was stretched and trimmed. In general, is this frowned upon by the collecting community? I think it would be frowned on to sell a pressed card without disclosure (though its probably done more often that realized). I think soaking to remove glue/paper (s/t that shouldnt be on the card to begin with) is generally accepted.

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02-14-2006, 10:42 AM

Posted By: MorrieI've soaked/pressed a few cards, and actually have one sitting at home that was part of a lot I bought from a fellow board member that I'll probably do this evening. I don't do it to remove wrinkles (that may be a minor side-effect, but most of my cards have enough wrinkles that I could run them over with a steam-roller and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference!), just to get rid of excess junk on their backs. You can find details on the process elsewhere on the board, but a few key things include: 1. If you're tempted to use something like Goo-Gone for particularly tough and/or tacky adhesives, DON'T. Unless, of course, you want your card to glow under blacklight and have a nice pseudo-lemony scent until the end of time. (I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would use what I guess was rubber cement to stick a t206 Jennings in an album. Sigh.) 2. Only use distilled water. Never tap water that can have weird chemicals that leave residue. 3. Let the card soak in the distilled water for several minutes before lightly - LIGHTLY - rubbing at the adhesive and/or extra paper with something like a q-tip. If possible, wear gloves to keep from getting extra junk in your water. If you don't have gloves, wrap your finger in cling wrap to hold the card in place while you lightly rub the paper/adhesive off the back. 4. Be patient. Rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles. Same principle here. 5. Related to 4, I never work with a card for more than 2 minutes before I leave it to soak for at least 2 more. Especially if you're cleaning off multiple layers of paper from a scrapbook, you need to let the water soak into the layers you've just exposed. 6. Once the surface is clear, you'll want to make sure you got all the adhesive. Just because you can read "Piedmont" all of a sudden doesn't mean the card won't still stick to things. Remember point 4, and give it another gentle cleaning, being very careful not to abrade the actual surface of the card. 7. When you remove the card from the water, place it between two sheets of heavy (20# or so) bond paper and put it beneath a stack of books. This will start pressing the water out of it, but you're going to need to move the card to either 2 more sheets of paper, or a different spot on the same sheets, about every 15 minutes for the next hour. The water will leech out and saturate the paper around it, and once the paper is saturated, the water that's still in the card has nowhere to go. Once you check the card after 15 minutes and the paper around it isn't wet, switch to yet another set of paper and put the card back under your pile of books for a day or so. Other folks may have other advice. This is what has worked for me cleaning t206s and a couple of t205s for my personal collection, and I think is consistent with what I've seen on the board. Morrie

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02-14-2006, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Keith O'Leary<DIV>Tape is a different animal altogether Josh. Try heating the tape up with a hair drier. After its heated up, take something like a knife's edge to work the corner of the tape up. If it gives you any trouble, keep heating until the adhesive on the tape becomes guier (sp...but had to get a computer term in LOL) and more plyable.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I wanted to add...More heat is better than not enough. You want the adhesive to become so soft that none is left on the card when pulling the tape off.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV>

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02-14-2006, 11:06 AM

Posted By: Tom Boblittabout 600-700 baseball and non-sports cards from an album and I'd agree with basically everything above. I usually used about 10-20 sheets of white copy paper as a couple didn't soak up enough of the water. I'd pat them dry with a dish towel or something. The bottom line about soaking is it is entirely up to the type of glue that was used. If the flour type glue was used, it is relatively easy. If the dark-colored horse-type glue was used, you don't want to try it anyway cause they look like hell.... I pulled (10) N162's out of there, two of which were baseball, both of which now reside in someone else's collection in SGC70 EX+ holders. Also about 60-70 Old Judges that had been skinned but not trimmed and a S.F. Hess Newsboy. Definitely be careful of cards like OJ's if they have not been skinned as the upper albumen photo layer may soak away from the actual cardboard layer. The advice about the back still having some glue on it is a good one. Be sure all the adhesive is worked off. You might use a q-tip to help this process. Also the advice about patience is a good one. I am not a patient person and the cards that turned out the worst from the ones I soaked were the ones I hurried on. I understand that some of the same process have been used to remove wrinkles from a card. I have not tried that but I can see how softening the paper up and then pressing it could achieve those effects.

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02-14-2006, 11:07 AM

Posted By: BrettI baught these 8 t206s. Could someone tell me how to remove these properly ? <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139944043.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139944059.JPG">

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02-14-2006, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisSoaking and pressing obviously works for T206 cards... but someone said that it does not work for T207 cards... nor would it be wise to do on a real photograph card where the photo is glued to the backing (N172). What about 1933 Goudeys? What about 1952 Topps? At what point did the cards start getting some sort of gloss that gets messed up from soaking?

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02-14-2006, 11:45 AM

Posted By: AnonymousAny hope for this fellow before I send it off? I had a previous post about it, but did not include these pictures. Tape appears to rap around slightly to the front on the right side. Any help is appreciated! <img src="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/gamecock98/NapLajoieBack.jpg"> <img src="http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f141/gamecock98/NapLajoie.jpg">

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02-14-2006, 11:50 AM

Posted By: joeI know two collectors who did this soaking back in the 1970's with T206 cards. I never tried it, they just put the cards in a bathtub full of water and it worked for them. I guess I should get some glue and paper on back cards and try it. sort of like golfing with someone who is too serious on the golf course. I always suggest trying different shots, tell them we are not playing for our lives. Joe

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02-14-2006, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Dennis W.I've emailed a couple of board members privately on this topic but I wanted to bump this thread and get some members views concerning one of Jim's original questions: "In general, is this frowned upon by the collecting community?"

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02-14-2006, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI don't see how using ONLY PURE WATER to clean a card can be considered wrong. They clean the Mona Lisa that way, don't they? (They certainly use something to clean it) If I accidentally spilled a drop of glue on a card, I would quickly try to wipe it off with water... so I can't see anything wrong with doing the same thing AFTER the glue has dried. If a "crinkle" or two gets flattened out in the process, I am not really bothered by that fact... as long as the card is still untrimmed and in the same dimensions. Do "soaked and pressed" cards end up THINNER?? Do they end up with the same "stiffness"??

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02-14-2006, 12:13 PM

Posted By: warshawlawIt may or may not work to remove cards from albums with distilled water. I am leery of any chemical treatments. I personally do not have a problem with soaking a card in distilled water to remove paper. Looks much better than having some crappy paper on the back. Your state might have a law about disclosing alterations if you resell the card.

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02-14-2006, 12:21 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...soaking T206 cards. But I have also had some pretty sorry outcomes. It all depends on the type of glue involved. My best work now resides in holders as high as SGC 70. Removing stuff that was added to the card after it came from the factory is not an alteration. Also, although you are technically restoring the card to its factory condition, this is not restoration as you are not adding pieces that are missing.

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02-14-2006, 12:24 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.Actually rehydrating vintage paper is good for it. Document/book restorers do it all the time. The Conservation Services at the South Carolina Department of Archives and History call their water-based treatment "aqueous buffering". Their treatment consists of a distilled/deionized water soultion with a dash of other chemicals they use to deacidify. I certainly don't condone using any chemicals on cards. I also want to add that essentially any chemical used other than water will glow under the blacklight. To answer your question Hal - I have not noticed any increase or decrease in the thickness of a card after the soaking process. One might assume it to be thicker as it absorbs water but I believe the pressing process neutralizes it. The card will warp if not left between the books to dry long enough but does maintain it's rigidity. I wanted to add that I use linen paper as opposed to regular printer paper. I find that it absorbs faster. I've had many cards graded over the years after going through this process and all have graded. edited to correct typo

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02-14-2006, 12:33 PM

Posted By: identify7I do not frown upon any alteration which can not be detected. Because if it can not be detected, it does not exist.

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02-14-2006, 12:39 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.Times must be changing. It wasn't long ago that "card washing" was a dirty word (sorry for the pun).

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02-14-2006, 01:15 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisWashing with ANYTHING other than water would be a "no-no" to me for sure. No bleach or chemicals or power-erasers allowed. But I don't see how washing a card with water is any different than opening a pack of cards in the rain or accidentally dropping one in the bathtub. Surely a very large percentage of old cards have gotten WET one way or another... whether on purpose or by accident... so I can't see anything wrong with WATER ONLY.

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02-14-2006, 01:29 PM

Posted By: AlDoes anyone have before/after photos they could post using just water. I'm wondering how well this works. Thanks

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02-14-2006, 01:31 PM

Posted By: Dean HI have to say that right now I'm against it. To me it's the intent to enhance a cards appearance that I don't like. I know some do it for their own personal collection but it seems to be a gray area. Will this lead us to accepting other methods later? I think I would shy away from a card that I know has been soaked. Dean

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02-14-2006, 01:46 PM

Posted By: RayBJim, I would stand firmly against this practice and do not engage in it, and frankly am disappointed when I here about other collectors participating in this. As a member of the collecting community I hold the opinion that any "operation" performed on a card with water or otherwise is doctoring, and doctoring is wrong. It is a shame that the practice has indeed reached conversational status, and that it is no longer a dirty word in the hobby. Just the fact that when the conversation comes up, if it encourages just one more person to give it a try, that's sad. I would much prefer a dirty old well traveled card than one that has been "tuned" up. RayB

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02-14-2006, 01:51 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI have to agree with what Ray just said, and I too am quite surprised at the ho-hum attitude when in recent times this Board has just trashed sellers whose "alterations" were at worst comparable and in some cases even more minor. EDITED TO ADD Hal, I am frankly surprised to hear your opinions, I had thought you were a passionate opponent of restoration and I frankly don't understand the technical distinctions you are drawing, what's the difference if water or something else is used for the purpose of removing glue or a crease?

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02-14-2006, 01:58 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittguess it's semantics. I didn't, nor wouldn't, add to a card or use anything other than water. In many cases, these aren't 'well travelled' cards. They might be EXMT to NRMT cards that have a piece of paper--something that wasn't intended to be on the card to begin with. If it is removed, without incident and without using anything other than water, I can almost surely guarantee that a grading company will grade it and I believe they should. Someone adding rice paper to corners to build them back up or bleaching dirty borders to whiten them or incoloring something in an effort to make it brighter I would have a problem with. Frankly, however, that's readily accepted in the comic book world and factored into pricing. CGC will grade altered comic books generally noting what has been altered. I can tell you we have had MANY threads where MAJOR auction houses admitted to much worse than this in an effort to spruce up a 'well travelled' card, photo, or otherwise. This included using restoration specialists who use chemical agents to otherwise alter a lot. Often without full disclosure on what was done because they don't believe it's material to the bidding process. Do some searching on here and you'll get more details than soaking a small piece of paper from a T206.......... Check out the thread at: <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE</a</a>> For some interesting restoration revelations......

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02-14-2006, 02:05 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisPeter: To me, the difference is that nothing unnatural is being added to the card. There is some degree of WATER vapor in the air that touches our cards every minute of every day. If a card gets wet and then dries completely... the card is biologically the exact same card that it was before it got wet. ASSUMING... that we are talking about these types of cards that are NOT "messed up" by getting wet. I buy only GRADED cards... so I am NOT going to be doing any such soaking myself. BUT... if soaking a card in pure water is something that even the grading companies cannot detect... then I assume that some of my old graded cards may very well have been soaked. That doesn't bother me NEAR AS MUCH as those stupid "Cy" Young cards that don't even picture Cy Young!

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02-14-2006, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisPeter: If this afternoon I drop a T206 in the sink and it gets wet... but I lay it on the counter and it dries completely without any change whatsoever... is the card ruined and tainted forever?? I say "not at all." Is your real problem with the potential removal of "crinkles" by the PRESSING process?? If we could "rub out" a wrinkle with our bare hands on a dry card, I am sure all of us would do it. I just can't understand the problem therefore in doing it with a wet card... as long as pure water is used. Are my shirts "altered" when the dry cleaners presses them?

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02-14-2006, 02:12 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethHal, how do you know soaking and pressing a card doesn't ALTER the fibers in some way? I would imagine it does, indeed by definition it must as it takes out the crease. As for being "natural" there are plenty of natural substances on earth besides water, are you really implying anything used to alter a card would be OK as long as it is "natural"?

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02-14-2006, 02:18 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisNo, I am saying that it is "natural" for a baseball card to get WET from WATER at some point during the lifespan of the card. Just like it is "natural" for a card to get hot or cold during the life of a card, depending on where it was stored. If heating a card up to 100 degrees Farenheit (or some other "naturally" occurring temperature) could remove the wrinkles... then I would have no problem with that either. To me, the "crinkle" is the alteration to the card, since it did not come from the factory with such a defect. Pressing the card (again, using the force of gravity that is "naturally" occurring from a heavy book and not some nuclear-powered press machine) is "removing" the "alteration." If a Topps card came out of the pack with a piece of GUM sticking to it... could I not use water and/or my fingers to remove this defect?

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02-14-2006, 02:21 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI am also still wanting to know from someone which cards out there are possible "soakers"... as opposed to which cards are "ruined" when they get wet. I just want to know which of my graded cards MAY have been soaked and which ones were definitely NOT soaked. So far... it sounds like ONLY the T206 cards can be soaked in water and get past the grading companies. Any others that you guys know about??

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02-14-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Adam SmithI am shocked that so many people consider soaking and pressing an acceptable form of alteration.

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02-14-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethHal if it's perfectly fine why do you want to know which of your cards may have been soaked?

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02-14-2006, 02:36 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Hal, E121s and similar cards from the 20s will not be damaged by soaking.

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02-14-2006, 02:42 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethInteresting choice of words in Hal's post, "get past" the grading companies. Are their ethical standards higher than this Board's? That sure is turning the world on its head given all the trash talking about grading companies.

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02-14-2006, 02:45 PM

Posted By: MorrieIf you don't like it, don't do it. I don't view it as altering a card to, as a number of people have put it, remove excess paper that was never supposed to be there. The implication that those of us who have soaked cards to remove paper that was not factory-applied -- in a manner that's consistent with other preservation and restoration methods -- might be behaving unethically is, to me, a little bizarre. If I tear them out of a scrapbook and lose part of the back, am I being more ethical? Or am I supposed to collect ephemera attached to ephemera? I'd rather just stick to baseball cards, thanks. Cards that have been soaked don't bother me; I'd buy a card I knew had been soaked, if it looked nice. I might feel differently if I were investing in PSA 8-9 level cards and wanted to be confident that these really were the cards as they were produced 95 years ago, virtually untouched by time. But I'm not. Maybe that's where the difference lies. Morrie "I (heart) my low-grade t206s" Mullin s (I will add the caveat that I understand that soaking can be used to temporarily press out surface wrinkles from cards in order to improve the appearance prior to grading, and that some slabbed cards have had tiny wrinkles that had been soaked/pressed re-appear and functionally drop the grade multiple points below what the slab identified the card as being. Please do not interpret my advocacy of soaking to remove paper as advocacy of soaking to bump a card's grade in a manner that has been demonstrated to be temporary. Once the paper's gone, it ain't comin' back, and to me that's a key distinction. It wasn't part of the card, while the wrinkle was.)

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02-14-2006, 02:58 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.Hal seems to be taking some heat for a practice many of us here engage in. I personally see no harm in it. I just can't accept the fact that some kid 100 years ago glued a card in a scrapbook and now that card is destined to carry that paper around on it's back forever. If you shouldn't remove the scrapbook residue then why is it ok to remove it from the book at all? Has not the book become as much a piece of the card as the residue? Like it or not this practice will continue as long as t206 commons in NrMt or better are bringing the kind of money they do. Money is a serious motivator. I believe the grading companies have established, through their grading criteria, what most collectors consider ethical. This holds true even if you don't have your cards graded. The vast majority of collectors and dealers believe if a card grades or would grade then it's ok - no matter what. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

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02-14-2006, 03:07 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethDennis I think two distinct things are being collapsed in the discussion, one is scrapbook removal, two is the process of soaking and pressing a card with the intent to remove a crease and obtain a higher grade. My comments, and I think Hal's for the most part, have been addressed more to the latter.

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02-14-2006, 03:22 PM

Posted By: warshawlaware dirty old men <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I think we need to be very careful not to hijack the question. I read the initial inquiry as a more or less philosophical question. I can see reasonable people differing philosophically on whether a card "should" be soaked to remove paper or paste. Some want cards to remain as they are found by collectors and never altered. Others figure that if the card is found stuck to an album page it has already been altered and removing the paper isn't "wrong" because you can't mess it up any worse. I don't think there is a "right" answer to the philosophical question, just opinions. I think what is rubbing some folks the wrong way is that the philosophical question naturally leads to an ethical and possibly legal question as to whether it is ethical/legal to soak a card off the sheet, have it slabbed, and offer it as such without disclosing the bath it took. While I personally may be fine with the practice of soaking and pressing a card to remove paper stuck to it and would like to see conservation of cards treated the same way as conservation of artwork, in the current climate, ethically and legally it raises many problems. It is just too easy and too lucrative to buy a damaged card, remove the extraneous material, and have it slabbed, thereby certifying to the world that it is unaltered (I know, I know, the slabbing emperor has no clothes, so to speak, but that is for another thread). Perhaps the solution we are ultimately working towards is for the slabbers to agree that when a card is slabbed it means that it may have been conserved (properly cleaned) but isn't altered (added to).

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02-14-2006, 03:44 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.Nicely spoken Adam and I agree. The only thing I want to add, and I realize I may be beating a dead horse, is that by soaking and pressing a card with scrapbook residue you will end up cleaning it and maybe remove wrinkles. It's a byproduct of the process. What's the difference when it comes to removing dirt? Is it only ethical to clean a card with paper residue on it?

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02-14-2006, 04:38 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittpeople don't post under their real names (unless they are famous for writing economic theory).........

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02-14-2006, 04:56 PM

Posted By: RickIs there a possibility that after rolling a wrinkle it could resurface again if not done properly? It could turn a high grade card into a "5" Especially dealing with graded cards this could turn ugly both for sellers and grading companies

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02-14-2006, 05:55 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanWhile i did not read each and every thread, MOST pertain to soaking and drying a card between paper and a heavy object. THIS IS NOT PRESSING a card, cards which are soaked and press rolled to lengthen the card and then trim it are what are meant by "pressing" a card. the fellows above are merely removing glue and paper remnants, no harm or damage to the card at all, true occasionally a minor wrinkle might come out, but nothing heavy. the cards that everyone is scared of in high grade holders were not soaked in a bathtub and put in between a phone book to dry, they were soaked, press rolled, dried and trimmed, an entirely different and advanced method. Scott

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02-14-2006, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Anonymous--

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02-14-2006, 06:59 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellI am stunned that so many collectors would find soaking and pressing cards acceptable. I agree 100% with RayB, Peter and Adam that this is totally unacceptable. The card alteration people soak, press and trim down to size-- This is just plain wrong. Jim

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02-14-2006, 07:03 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaI soaked this Comiskey Scrapps off just last week using regular tap water with no problem...The backing did not completely come off, but it looks a whole lot better off of the page than it did on. I cut off the other scraps on the page to test them before I tried the Comiskey and of course they came off of the paper with ease....Comiskey on the other hand must have been glued in with a different type of glue. <a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/290/comiskeyscrapps0ke4kd.jpg" border="0" width="560" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a> <a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9611/comiskey8tu.jpg" border="0" width="490" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

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02-14-2006, 07:03 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI agree 100% with Scott B. If a card was power-pressed and then trimmed... it is a terrible practice and the card is worthless. If am merely talking about the soaking of a card and then pressing it in a book to dry. Nothing more than I did as a kid with my cards that got rained on.

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02-14-2006, 07:09 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzSeems to me, as I mentioned in another thread a week or two ago, that it's cheating, especially with ersatz high grade cards. A card should have nice edges and corners if it lived nearly all of its life pasted in an album. I realize that any high grade pre-war card somehow escaped heavy handling for years, whether in between pages of a book, carefully placed in an envelope or drawer, cigar box, etc. Still, the reward (read price) for surviving unscathed seems cheapened if you can accomplish the same thing by removing cards from albums and soaking off the glue. Just my two cents. Different philosophy for beater cards whose value will not change much if the back is enhanced. As for cards in the middle, I'd lean toward disfavoring soaking--again the card looks better than it should from what might be perceived as an unfair advantage (sitting nicely out of handling range in an album), and is increasing in value from that advantage.

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02-14-2006, 07:42 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittYou're a high-grade PSA collector, right? Think all your 8's and 9's have never had any of the above that Scott B is describing done to them? Pressing and trimming wouldn't be visible under a black light either....

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02-14-2006, 07:45 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethSo Hal the fact that your cards got rained on when you were a kid is the basis on which you justify the practice of intentionally soaking a card in order to remove a crease, and then "get[ting] it past" a grader into a holder 2 or 3 grades higher than it might otherwise have received? Is that your position? EDITED TO FIX TYPO

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02-14-2006, 07:52 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellI don't know the answer to that question. I will call Mike Baker and ask what he thinks. I would never buy a card that I knew this had been done to and it snuck into a psa 8 holder. Jim

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02-14-2006, 07:58 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanIt is sad that alteration of any kind - whether it be soaking or trimming - is even discussed favorably in this forum. It's a slippery slope - if you support soaking today, what's to stop the practice of trimming later? The people that support soaking, for the most part do so in order to get their cards higher grades, i.e., to make MORE money not just for the LOVE of the hobby. Stop the BS and at least admit it.

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02-14-2006, 08:04 PM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethOh come on Jeff, as a lawyer surely you can see the distinction between "natural" alterations such as soaking and artificial ones such as trimming. It's a bright line distinction that is clear as day, not a slippery slope. Were there any exacto knives in the Garden of Eden? QED.

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02-14-2006, 08:21 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I think everyone needs to reread scott b's post above as terms that mean different things are being used interchangeably here. Soaking to get scrap paper that shouldnt be on the card off is completely different in my opinion. These cards are not "pressed" they are dried b/t pieces of paper under books. They are not stretched and they are not trimmed. I dont even believe that this removes wrinkles. Pressing is completely different process that is used to stretch the card prior to trimming it. As for the distinction b/t storing a card in a book or envelope and in an album - that is truly a stretch.

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02-14-2006, 08:31 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultz<As for the distinction b/t storing a card in a book or envelope and in an album - that is truly a stretch.> That was my comment. What are you saying? My point was that high grade prewar cards escaped handling, through whatever good fortune. They lasted several generations without being worn, which is worthy of a premium value. Not nearly so for cards glued in an album and then removed and soaked. You disagree?

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02-14-2006, 08:32 PM

Posted By: Tim JamesI would be happy to give my two cents worth on this.My boss happens to be a coin collector.When it comes to grading coins,they can tell if a coin has been "cleaned".Any cleaning or solvent liquids that have been used are evident during the grading process.I'm not sure the current "popular graders" for b-ball cards can tell if a card has been "restored" or not,but I know this is true for the coin guys out there.I can give pointers for paper restoration and archival display,but ultimately,I would say leave it alone unless somebody who knows what they are doing is handling your cards.

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02-14-2006, 08:35 PM

Posted By: tbobScott B's point is well made. There is a huge difference between soaking T206 commons to remove paper on the back from a scrapbook album and the people who soak and stretch and trim cards. I also find it humorous that there seems to be an attitude of disdain from certain collectors about people who soak, stretch and trim (I don't like these guys either) but admit to all those beautiful PSA 8s and 9s in their collection. Just where do you think these cards came from????

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02-14-2006, 08:44 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.For the record - as noted in my previous responses in this thread - I have no problem with soaking cards. I do have a problem with the soak-press-trim practice that Scott B. defined. I've never done it, didn't know you could do it, certainly never will do it and definitely do not condone it.

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02-14-2006, 08:57 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Todd, To some extent I do disagree. I think any card that survives 100 years in a condition even remotely resembles how they looked when issued deserves a premium regardless of how they survived (excluding trimmed, bleached, and otherwise altered cards). I guess my thought is that today there are all sorts of products available to store and protect cards and other collectibles for the future. These products werent available in the early 1900s. If someone chose to glue their cards to a scrap book b/c that was the best way to protect them and the glue/paper can be removed w/o damaging the card, who am I to say its any worse a method than putting it in a book, envelope or cigar box. Personally, while Ive done it once (card still in my collection), I dont make it a point to soak cards (frankly, Im too scared of ruining them) but I wouldnt have any problem bidding on a card that has had paper/glue removed and would buy such a card with or without disclosure and w/o any discount.

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02-14-2006, 08:59 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I should also add, that I would never knowingly buy a bleached, trimmed, pressed (to remove wrinkles) or other altered card unless it was at a severe discount to its unaltered value.

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02-14-2006, 09:09 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzI guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

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02-14-2006, 09:16 PM

Posted By: Tim JamesI would say,soaking a card would not be detectible with the graders.Water along with wood pulp,being the key ingredients,would not raise a flag when being examined.

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02-14-2006, 09:56 PM

Posted By: Anonymous--

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02-14-2006, 10:11 PM

Posted By: Tim JamesBeauty is in the eye of the beholder.If the person that sees the beauty has the scratch,he'll jump.You could never turn a 5 into a 9,we are chained to the standard that is in place until something changes it.

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02-14-2006, 10:37 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I can understand being upset if you bought a psa 8 or 9 that you later found out had been soaked, pressed and rolled for purposes of eliminating wrinkles, stretching the card and trimming the card. However, for the life of me, I cant understand why anyone would be upset to learn that the card you just bought once had scrap book paper attached if removal of the paper was all that was done (ie no eliminating wrinkles, no cleaning, no bleaching, no trimming, etc). You have the card as it was in its unaltered original state. Its not like bleaching or building the corners back up where the card has been altered so that it appears in a "like-original" state.

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02-14-2006, 11:09 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.Josh you state: "I cant understand why anyone would be upset to learn that the card you just bought once had scrap book paper attached if removal of the paper was all that was done (ie no eliminating wrinkles, no cleaning, no bleaching, no trimming, etc)." I think part of the reason some people have a problem with soaking paper residue off is that you really can't do it without cleaning the card. It's a byproduct of the process. Also, when you dry a card between books it does lesson and/or remove wrinkles. That too is a byproduct of the process. To be clear I'm only talking about soaking paper off a card and drying it between books. In other words it's a matter of "you can't have your cake and eat it too", if you want the paper off you gotta clean it (not you specifically but anyone with cards containing residue).

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02-15-2006, 05:51 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisCan someone PLEASE answer my question? So far I have heard that T206's are "soakable"... and so are the E120 type Caramel cards... but what about more "modern" cards? Could some of my 1933 Goudey slabbed cards have been soaked? What about 1952 Topps? At what point did cards become "unsoakable" to where the soaking would mess up the card and leave it unslabbable??

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02-15-2006, 06:01 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldUnbelievable... The way to be sure you have a collection that is free of T206s that have been soaked is to not collect T206s.... Or be about 130 years old and only have the cards you obtained directly from the little cigarette packs. If you had a T206 Polar Bear with a almost loose piece of tobacco on the back, would you touch your finger nail to the speck and see if it would fall free??? An old, wise collector of more than half a century told me about how he and a friend would advertise in a newspaper that they would be buying old baseball cards, and would be at room # such and such at so and so motel... They'ed rent the room and wait. Some weekends only a few would show up. Some weekends many would appear. Most T206s were in scrapbooks, and flour paste had been used to glue the cards into the scrapbooks. (Don't you reckon that most loose cards were long lost, and almost all of what we have came from scrapbooks?) They would haggle out a price, buy the scrapbook, run water in the bathtub, and float the T206s off. I was shocked at the idea of putting an old T206 in water. But finally, I tried it. On a dirty, beat up card. Tap water in a glass. (For those of you who smoke, your smoke is more harmful to the cards than tap water would be.) The card didn't separate, as I'd feared... lots of the dirt came off. The scrapbook remains on the back fell free. It was great. I rinsed the card once under the tap, blotted both sides with a paper towel to remove surface water, then put the card between some copy paper, with that under 2 or 3 heavy books. I encourage everyone to soak off the scrapbook bits, dirt, and tobacco bits. I encourage those outraged at this thought to soak their heads... DO NOT SOAK GOUDEY CARDSS! They are a sandwich of 3 papers, and will separate. You'll have a mess. Paper is tough stuff... paper survived the world trade center better than the steel and concrete. Paper is made with water. We're not discussing cutting and trimming, bleaching, adding ink, restoring paper loss.... I had a 1937 Dodge sedan for a few years. It still had the original interior. 94,000 miles. 2 owners. I'm ashamed to say I did wash dirt off of it...

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02-15-2006, 06:24 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI'm with Frank. I took a shower this morning... and I don't feel "tainted" or "altered" at all. If I spill a drop of ketchup on my card... can I blow it off with my mouth? (YES) Can I scrape it off with my finger? (YES) Can I wipe it off with a dry cloth? (YES) Can I wipe it off with a damp cloth? (YES) But I can't soak the card in a glass of water?

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02-15-2006, 06:39 AM

Posted By: steve f<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1140014281.JPG"> Don't state the obvious, it is well known... I really should get a job. Sean Skeffington, If your'e here fell free to chime in.

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02-15-2006, 06:39 AM

Posted By: Hal Lewis<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-15-2006, 06:43 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzAlthough I am not outraged, I still say soak this! I'll get by just fine without any encouragement from you. My opinions on this subject have not changed. Collect what the hell you want, and pretty up your cards as you see fit.

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02-15-2006, 06:51 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI know this is slightly off topic... but did someone say that COINS are considered "altered" in that hobby if they are cleaned in any way?? Just curious. I am guessing that WATER alone would not really do anything to help clean a coin... so I suppose that chemicals of some sort are used? Is that what is considered a "no-no" in the coin collecting world?

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02-15-2006, 07:03 AM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaHal, it is okay to clean a coin with water...When people speak of cleaning coins they are talking about chemical treatments. If you weren't "allowed" to clean a coin you would never even see an ancient coin it would be a mass of dirt. Back to the topic at hand...I don't see why it matters to anyone if a card has been soaked if you can't tell....I would bet that 99% of all Scrapps were soaked at one time or another. It's one thing to trim and press a card, but soaking to remove scrapbook residue shouldn't be a problem at all.

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02-15-2006, 07:06 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisGood point. Again, it would be completely impossible to ever tell if a coin has been soaked in pure water and then allowed to air dry. Thus, it is OK in that hobby. Apparently it is also impossible to ever tell if a T206 card has been soaked in water, as long as it was pressed dry in the same dimensions as it was before the soaking?

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02-15-2006, 07:13 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisIf EVERY single T206 card in existence COULD have been "soaked and pressed" WITHOUT leaving any possible trace of this having happened... isn't it pretty naive and fruitless to be so adamantly OPPOSED to this practice?? Isn't it essentially IMPOSSIBLE to prove that ANY T206 card is "unsoaked"?? Even a card that has been in an ATTIC for 95+ years COULD have been "soaked and pressed" in 1909 by any kid with access to water and a book. I just find it funny to hear people say that they are so AGAINST this practice when there is NO WAY to trace or prove it. It reminds me of all the baseball executives who were so adamantly against steroids BEFORE there was any testing that could PROVE the players were taking them. They had their heads buried in the sand and wanted to sound like they were taking the moral high road.

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02-15-2006, 07:48 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethYes, Hal, you may find it "fully" (I presume you meant "funny"), but a lot of people are opposed to the intentional alteration of a card in order to improve its condition, "get it past" the graders (that language of course presumes that if the graders knew they would not approve), and make more money. Whether or not it can be detected is not relevant to the ethical point -- are you saying if one could commit a crime with no possibility of being caught then it would be OK?

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02-15-2006, 07:57 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzIf a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Hal, I'm sure your answer to that question would be different from mine. If an altered or flawed card appears in a high-graded PSA slab without being downgraded, is it altered or flawed at all? Hal, I KNOW your answer to that question would be different from mine. If a person erases writing from a card, which of course was never intended to be there in the first place, is that something that should downgrade the card? Only if detected? If someone soaked the glue off of a card right before the grader's eyes, would you care if he gave it a high grade and ignored the removal? Depends on if you're buyer or seller? The baseball steroid analogy eludes me. Are you suggesting that owners are singing a different tune now that the players are tested? I don't seee that. What I did see was a widespread attitude of "everyone's doing them, so who cares" for years. That kind of attitude may be what is adopted by this board as relates to card soaking. Make of it what you will.

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02-15-2006, 08:18 AM

Posted By: Josh K.actually if s/o soaked scrapbook paper and glue off right before my eyes, had it graded, and it rec'd a high grade, I would buy the card and would not discount it in the least. I think the big difference here is that I dont consider that an alteration. I consider gluing it to a scrapbook in the first place an alteration. I notice no one has answered Hal's question, so I will ask a similar question: If you were packaging your cards and getting ready to send them to the graders and your kid ran by, tried to grab your t206 to see what it was and in doing so the snot on his finger was transfered to your card, must it stay there for all eternity or can you take a moist paper towel and wipe it off before sending it in? If your answer is anything other than "it must stay there" you are being hypocritical.

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02-15-2006, 08:21 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisYou guys are missing my point. I assume that you guys own some T206 cards, right? I also assume that you guys were NOT the original owners of those T206 cards who pulled them from packs in 1909, right? And even GRADED T206 cards from every grading service may very well have been soaked and pressed, right? So my point is... how is it so "NOBLE" to NOT soak a T206 card that might very well have ALREADY BEEN SOAKED at some point during the past 95 years?? That was my steroid analogy. You guys own T206 cards and have NO WAY to prove that they were NOT soaked... so you can take the "moral high road" and say that you are adamanatly against soaking and pressing. BUT... if they came out TOMORROW with a way to PROVE that ALL of your T206 cards have been soaked and pressed in the past... then you might sing a different tune. Josh is right.

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02-15-2006, 08:31 AM

Posted By: David VarghaSoaking is no big deal IMO. I don't consider it an "alteration". DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-15-2006, 08:39 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisTo summarize my position: I have never soaked a card in water in the past... and I will never soak a card in water in the future... but I am not so naive as to think that the cards I own may not have been soaked at some point during their lifespan. There is nothing I can do to "disprove" this... so I might as well be able to live with it.

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02-15-2006, 08:42 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliDo you guys try and make your cards look more presentable before sending them in for grading? Or do you just toss them into a card saver and ship them off? Do you press a frayed corner back into the card so that it's not flipped up in the slab, or do you leave them frayed? Do you wipe fingerprints off the card, or do you leave them there? Would you flick a little goober off the face of the card with a fingernail, or do you leave the goober? Maybe wipe off a small patch of glue or tobacco, or let it remain on the card? Do you blow dust off the card, or leave it dusty? If the card has a little fuzz along an edge, do you try and press it back into the edge, so that it's a little less noticeable, or do you leave it? Last year I bought a small lot of T206s, really cheap. They all had scrapbook paper on the backs. One of them had a Tolstoi back - my first. I was bummed that I couldn't see the entire Tolstoi ad, because of the paper. I noticed that the scrapbook paper had flipped up in one corner, so I grabbed it with my finger, and tried lifting it up a little more. Boom - the scrapbook paper came right off the card, with almost no effort at all, revealing a beautiful Tolstoi ad. Should I have glued the scrapbook paper back onto the card? -Al

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02-15-2006, 08:42 AM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaI don't understand the mentality here...If it's undetectable to soak a card and remove scrapbook and glue how is that wrong? That is not altering the card in any way. How does a Scrapps "card" get into a holder with a grade on it? I can guarantee you that 99% of them have been soaked.

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02-15-2006, 08:43 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzI would not sing a different tune. If I found out tomorrow that certain of my cards had been soaked, I likely would not discard them, but I might very well seek to upgrade or swap them out, and I DAMN SURE would disclose the fact that they had been soaked if and when I went to sell them. After all, if it doesn't matter that the card has been soaked, then what's the harm in disclosing the soaking? Would you disclose--oh that's right, your cards already come in a pretty little slab, no need to care what the card might have actually looked like at one time. And I do understand other people's points. I simply disagree with Josh, as I indicated. As for answering questions, what about mine? If PSA slabs it, is it good to go? If an intentional pencil mark is intentionally erased and is undetected, no harm, no foul? Different from soaking how?

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02-15-2006, 08:47 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI believe erasing the pencil mark would also remove some of the paper from the outer layer of the card, but I might be wrong. I don't know anything about erasing... just like I didn't know anything about soaking before reading this thread. I'm just voicing my honest opinion, not championing the rights of one position or the other. What would be so wrong with just assuming that EVERY T206 card in history has been soaked and pressed?? That's basically what I am doing from now on.

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02-15-2006, 08:48 AM

Posted By: WesleyJosh, To answer your question, there is a world of difference between wiping a booger off your T206 card and actually soaking a T206 card in distilled water and then pressing it. I would not be happy to learn that some of my cards have been soaked and pressed at one point, although this thread leads me to believe that such practices are more prevalent than I had imagined.

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02-15-2006, 08:54 AM

Posted By: robert aI'm gonna go bust out all of my PSA 1s and soak them. Do you guys think I'll get em' into GAI 1.5 holders?

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02-15-2006, 08:55 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisRobert: No need to do that... because they were all already soaked and pressed BEFORE they were slabbed. Yours were just some of the ones that didn't fare so well in the washing machine! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-15-2006, 09:34 AM

Posted By: Anonymous--

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02-15-2006, 09:55 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI do know a bit about pencils and erasing. There are eraser products out there that will remove a mark without removing the paper. Artgum is the main one. Many sketch artists use Artgum erasers to fix their work in progress with no aesthetic impact on the medium. If the pencil marking is very light and did not make an indentation into the paper, it often can be erased in a manner that cannot be seen by the naked eye or felt. Whether it would show up under a microscope or black light I cannot say. However, if the slabheads out there think that PSA or SGC or GAI is putting every card under a microscope, you are in for a very rude awakening. I've watched the GAI folks pre-grade cards at shows. Ten seconds out of the sleeve under a regular light and if nothing catches the grader's eye the grade is assigned and the sticker applied. No black lights, no CSI equipment. Just a man, a card and a reading lamp.

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02-15-2006, 10:04 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethLet me get this straight Josh, taking out a crease is the same as flicking a piece of snot off a card? And if I think there is a difference I am a hypocrite?

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02-15-2006, 10:19 AM

Posted By: David VarghaI have a couple of SGC 2's that I soaked. The reason I did it is because they look better when I can see what the back looks like. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-15-2006, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisLike I said before... from now on, I will simply consider EVERY T206 card to have been soaked and pressed at some point in time.

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02-15-2006, 10:47 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Peter - Please go back and read my posts - I have never advocated taking a crease out of a card. I am referring to soaking a card in water to remove a piece of paper stuck to the card. This is no different than using a water dampened paper towel to remove a piece of snot.

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02-15-2006, 10:53 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisMaybe I am just a cynical pessimist... but if it is truly possible for someone to "soak and press" a T206 card and remove the wrinkles... then it is almost a VIRTUAL CERTAINTY that several people are out there doing so RIGHT NOW and then re-selling the cards for a profit. And like someone said... it is pretty much guaranteed that people have been doing this for DECADES. If there is no way to detect this type of thing... then it is just TOO EASY of a way for someone to be making a big profit on EBay, etc. Is it right? NO. Is it preventable? NO.

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02-15-2006, 11:07 AM

Posted By: RayBI'm sorry, hypothetical examples don't work for me. Anybody can paint you into a box by concocting a hypothetical which doesn't allow for a way for you to justify your own opinion. Should I really forge checks to see if the teller "authenticates" it so I can slip it past the bank to "enhance " my personal worth? Of course not. It's a matter of ethics. It's not whether or not a given card in your own collection has ever been altered in it's travels prior to it residing with you, it's more about whether or not you have soaked, are soaking or would be willing to soak for condition enhancement. I'm against it. If your answer is yes I do it than it's sad you feel that way. The shame of it is that now soaked (enhanced) cards are also being presented to Authenticators (without disclosure)for the expressed purpose of better grade treatment. Those of you doing this certainly aren't doing it just for personal satisfaction of having your cards look better; it's because this card will present as a "higher" grade and be worth more if you can "slip" it by the graders through to authentication. Overlooking or grudgingly accepting the fact that a small percentage of cards have been tweaked over the years is one thing; but Espousing and utilizing the "Doctoring 101" methodology of soaking cards is bad ethics. RayB

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02-15-2006, 11:13 AM

Posted By: WesleyI suppose if upon selling a soaked card there is full disclosure to potential buyers that might be ok. BUT I have yet to see an ebay auction with warnings that a card has been soaked and pressed to remove wrinkles or soaked to remove some residue scrapbook paper and glue.

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02-15-2006, 11:20 AM

Posted By: RayBAl, Sort of like the questionaire to find out if your at risk for heart disease or something. Respectfully Al, I am sure you are looking for answers as each of us see's ourselves handling each situation. Answers should give you some flavor for the ethical boundaries of each collector. Right or wrong we have only ourselves to live with on this issue. My answers are in BOLD. Al writes: "Do you guys try and make your cards look more presentable before sending them in for grading? NO, IF THEIR NOT PRESENTIBLE TO THE STANDARD I"M SUBMITTING FOR PRIOR TO SUBMITTING,I DON"T SUBMIT THEM. Or do you just toss them into a card saver and ship them off? YES. Do you press a frayed corner back into the card so that it's not flipped up in the slab, or do you leave them frayed? LEAVE AS IS, OR DONT SUBMIT. Do you wipe fingerprints off the card, or do you leave them there? LEAVE IT ALONE. Would you flick a little goober off the face of the card with a fingernail, or do you leave the goober? ASSUMPTION IS GOOBER IS AS OLD AS CARD. LEAVE IT OR DONT SUBMIT. Maybe wipe off a small patch of glue or tobacco, or let it remain on the card? REMAIN ON CARD. Do you blow dust off the card, or leave it dusty? IF MY CARDS ARE DUSTY, I DONT HAVE TIME FOR CARDS IN THE FIRST PLACE. If the card has a little fuzz along an edge, do you try and press it back into the edge, so that it's a little less noticeable, or do you leave it? LEAVE IT OR DON'T SUBMIT. Last year I bought a small lot of T206s, really cheap. They all had scrapbook paper on the backs. One of them had a Tolstoi back - my first. I was bummed that I couldn't see the entire Tolstoi ad, because of the paper. I noticed that the scrapbook paper had flipped up in one corner, so I grabbed it with my finger, and tried lifting it up a little more. Boom - the scrapbook paper came right off the card, with almost no effort at all, revealing a beautiful Tolstoi ad. Should I have glued the scrapbook paper back onto the card? I"VE NEVER OWNED A SCRAPBOOK SO THIS ONE IS A HYPOTHETICAL. I WOULD LIKELY LOOK TO SELL THE SCRAPBOOK AS IS. Guys; this is really the way I feel. Respectfully, RayB

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02-15-2006, 12:00 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI am NOT encouraging "soaking and pressing." NOBODY IS. I am just realizing that it seems to be very prevalant... undetectable... and has been going on for DECADES. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Therefore, to act like ANY of us would know if we owned a "presoaked" card is ludicrous. Some of mine may have been soaked... or they may not. There is simply no way to know.

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02-15-2006, 12:31 PM

Posted By: T206Collector...expectations that their cardboard has never been soaked in water and pressed flat with no visible, smellable or tastable evidence of that practice can go on living that dream. The rest of us are just happy that the card looks, smells and tastes the way it does today, regardless of its 100 year history. Like I said above, alteration means altering the card itself. Restoration means putting new material into holes in the card. Removing scrapbook, glue and dirt with water is neither altering the card or restoring the card. Erasing pencil marks without disturbing the fabric and fiber of the cardboard is also a good idea. It takes a mark added after the factory and removes it without hurting the factory condition. I feel very differently about using chemicals which, though not visible, stay with the card. I have two Polar Bear T206 cards without any tobacco staining that have snow white borders. SGC will not grade them because they believe that they have been chemically soaked. And I get that. SGC will, however, grade cards that have been soaked only in water. That is also the line that I draw. And yes, cards with wrinkles look better after a good soaking and pressing. But that's the same story even without the water: HOW MANY OF YOU PUT CARDS IN SCREW DOWN HOLDERS? THIS KEEPS CARDS FROM GETTING WARPED AND WORN AS THEY WOULD IF THEY WERE NOT IN SCREW DOWN HOLDERS. IF YOU TAKE A WARPED CARD AND PRESS IT WITHOUT WATER OR ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN A STACK OF BOOKS, IS THAT ALSO ALTERING THE CARD? The semantics of this discussion are really something else. But very interesting. Finally, where were all you nay-sayers when I was posting thread after thread of my experiences removing gunk from the backs of T206 cards with water soaking/pressing? Are you all new to the vintage card hobby, or just this Board?

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02-15-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: identify7And if there is no way to know, there is no reason to care. Because if an alteration is undetectable, it does not exist.

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02-15-2006, 12:52 PM

Posted By: RayB Gil's comment: "And if there is no way to know, there is no reason to care. Because if an alteration is undetectable, it does not exist." That comment is typical of today's society... If your neighbor beats his dog, but the bruises are undetectable, I suppose that doesn't exist either. Ugh! RayB

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02-15-2006, 12:58 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisNo, but if my neighbor bathes his dog in PURE WATER and leaves no marks... then I am OK with that.

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02-15-2006, 12:59 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittthats a STTTRRREEETTTCCCHHH on that one Ray..... an undetectable stain on a 1.5 x 2.5 piece of cardboard versus beating a dog? Can you, without question, say you don't have any cards that have been soaked and dried? Check back at the Mastronet catalogs over last 3-4 years. I can guarantee that there have been no less than 3-4 albums of cards in there that went very high regardless of the fact they had cards glued in. I can also guess that those cards most likely no longer reside there. While I don't think that MOST of the cards out there now were at some time pasted in an album, I do allow for the fact that a lot of them are. If the graders at PSA and SGC that everyone is so enamored with can't tell the difference, how's anyone to know? Before you slash me with the dog comment, I have a 10 pound schnauzer that thinks she's a doberman, so don't mess with me on that analogy or I'll sick her on you........

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02-15-2006, 01:04 PM

Posted By: RayBI missed your last threads on this subject and would have thoughtfully offered my opinions there as well. Rather than a Nay sayer, I would prefer to think I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to vintage card collecting. This Board has incredible accumulated knowledge and built in value when it comes to the subject of vintage cards and I have enjoyed my dealings recently with some of it's quality participants. Secondly, this subject cuts to the heart of an ethical issue collectors care about. No matter where one falls on this one can only be short sighted by not at least allowing for quality discourse. I just happen to feel strongly one way, recent or long term participation here not withstanding. I love vintage cards, plain and simple. RayB

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02-15-2006, 01:08 PM

Posted By: identify7Re. Gil's comment: "And if there is no way to know, there is no reason to care. Because if an alteration is undetectable, it does not exist." I did not intend that this statement would apply to a situation such as: If your wife can not prove that you cheated on her, then you didn't. My intent was that if science and other technology can not establish that a change to a card has occured, then nothing detectable has happened. And if it is not detectable, what is there to concern yourself with?

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02-15-2006, 01:11 PM

Posted By: Morrie"It's a matter of ethics. It's not whether or not a given card in your own collection has ever been altered in it's travels prior to it residing with you, it's more about whether or not you have soaked, are soaking or would be willing to soak for condition enhancement. I'm against it. If your answer is yes I do it than it's sad you feel that way." People who purchase low-grade cards with the sole intention of altering them and subsequently taking advantage of grading companies' inability to detect the alteration to make a profit are behaving unethically. I think that's a given. "Overlooking or grudgingly accepting the fact that a small percentage of cards have been tweaked over the years is one thing; but Espousing and utilizing the "Doctoring 101" methodology of soaking cards is bad ethics." This is not. Not all card soaking is done for profit-based reasons. Some of it really is, quite simply, because collectors like to see as much of the card as still exists. It also doesn't do much good to bemoan the cat being out of the bag, since I don't know about anyone else, but literally everything I know about card soaking, I learned on this board. This thread contains no information that wasn't already archived here, and since I don't believe that sharing information is wrong (barring things that threaten actual harm to people, which this doesn't), posting and re-posting it isn't something I can accept as unethical, either. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with the extent to which you're willing to generalize it. Morrie "my last name's further up the thread too, moderator dude" Mullin s

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02-15-2006, 01:13 PM

Posted By: RayBIf you have been reading my posts, I don't discount the fact that there is a possibility that there may be a card or two in my collection that have received thr proverbial annointment. Because of the this prevalence it seems to go without saying. I only maintain, I don't do it, and why. Do what makes you feel good because you only have yourself to answer to. Thanks. Ray

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02-15-2006, 01:13 PM

Posted By: AnsonIt certainly makes life a lot easier other than truly worrying that your cards MAY have been soaked at some time. Car buffs do all kinds of tricks to classic cars to make them look nice, without altering the car itself. As previously mentioned, some of the nicest works of art are treated the same. Please send all of your undetectable, soaked cards to me. Cobbs anad Wagners included.

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02-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Posted By: cmokingLet's say you bought a lot of 75 T206 SGC 60 cards at a fair price. A year later, you find the following: 25 cards have been soaked and wrinkles pressed out. The wrinkles have not come back, and you don't expect them to after all this time. You cannot detect there ever were any wrinkles on the card. another 25 cards have been soaked to get glue/paper off of the card. You cannot detect that there was ever glue/paper on the card. The other 25 cards you know nothing was done to them. Now two situations: A. If you knew what was done to each card, would you sell or otherwise get rid of the any of them? B. If you didn't know what was done to each card, but knew that only 25 of them were not soaked - then what do you do? Do you sell or get rid of all 75 cards thinking that at least you are getting rid of 50 soaked cards? I think this is a dilemma for modern day collectors. If cards are being soaked and things done to them that are not detectable in any way by anybody, then it means any card you buy, whether it be a SGC 40, a PSA 7 or anywhere in between, could have gone through some soaking. Does this mean an anti-soaker needs to get out of the hobby?

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02-15-2006, 01:28 PM

Posted By: warshawlawIf a paper conservation technique is accepted by every museum in the world for its fine prints and works of art, don't so blithely toss out the idea of those same techniques being applied to cards. Museums do not allow their collections to degenerate or remain damaged. If some moron spills his coke on a Rembrandt print, the museum sends it to a conservator who will clean it and try to prevent long term damage. If you buy a print from a gallery and improperly mount it, causing acid burns on the paper, you can have a conservator try to remove the stains and buffer the paper against further acid damage. I really think this is a discussion that we need to have with open minds and reasonable attitudes. I realize that thinking of a rare card the same way as someone thinks of a Chagall print is not consistent the the card collector's mentality but this has to change if the vintage material world is to grow. If it is accepted in the world of fine arts to remove foreign materials from a fine art print and to buffer it so that the acids in the paper do not cause it to degenerate, it is just silly for us to decree that cards (which can cost as much as fine art prints) are too holy or special or whatever to undergo the same treatment.

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02-15-2006, 01:33 PM

Posted By: scott brockelmanTrust me, like it or not probably each and every poster in this thread has at least 1 and probably several cards in their respective collections that have been soaked off of paper or glue or scrapbooks, and does not know it. whether graded or not. it is absolutely impossible to tell if a card has been soaked and dried. AGAIN i am not speaking of pressrolling a soaked card and stretching it for trimming, only the holders of 7 and higher holders need to worry about that, and generally these cards have some recognizable characteristics, but thats another story. collectors have been soaking cards off of pages and such for over 50 years, it didn't start last week. these have never been considered tainted in any way. as a note i would suggest contacting your favorite grading service and asking them about a card having been soaked in water and blotted dry in a phone book or typing paper. they probably won't have much to say as they can't detect it. unlike bleaching, coloring ,etc. SO unless it just worries you to death, i would just keep enjoying your cards and not get to caught up in this thread. Scott

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02-15-2006, 01:38 PM

Posted By: Josh K.That is a great point Adam.

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02-15-2006, 01:39 PM

Posted By: Tom BoblittI agree.......aesthetically speaking, I'd rather have a nice EXMT soaked card than a heavily creased G/VG one........encapsulated or otherwise. I think it's interesting that the grading services, especially SGC now are encapsulating cards and putting the 'AUT' on them when they vehemently denied doing this a year or two ago. I think it's a great service ultimately (not to switch to another inflammatory discussion). If they could detect that a card had been soaked, I would not be opposed to them putting 'AUT' or some other identifier on it. I just don't think it rises to the occasion of that type of situation though because, arguably, nothing has been done to the card to make it materially different. Interesting discussion. I think we'd all be surprised at the true history of all the cards in our collections........

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02-15-2006, 01:39 PM

Posted By: Keith O'LearySome of the posters here should read what Burdick wrote in the earlier issues of the American Card Catalog.

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02-15-2006, 01:50 PM

Posted By: RayBThanks. Well thought out and logical. I am nothing but open minded, I've just felt pretty strongly about this issue. In most cases however a conservator is working on a one of a kind piece. Museum conservatory work of this type doesnt offend me or press any ethics issue because the museum is often doing this to preserve the image/object for it's historical importance only, to be enjoyed by our grandchildrens grandchildren and beyond. I don't deal in art but I suspect that trade in this collectible commodity has a "restored" issue as well when it comes to the buy, sell and trade side of that market. I am open minded about the potential use of conservation methods as a positive. Heck, who wouldn't be for the sandblasting and puttying that goes on at Mount Rushmore to maintain that great American landmark. It's impossible to go back to a point where everyone leaves the cards as is. We are at where we are at. Respectfully, RayB

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02-15-2006, 01:58 PM

Posted By: Josh K.keith, please dont leave us hanging.

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02-15-2006, 01:58 PM

Posted By: Peter Spaeth"Interesting discussion. I think we'd all be surprised at the true history of all the cards in our collections........" I think that is the one thing on which we can reach a consensus here, irrespective of differences on the appropriateness of particular practices.

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02-15-2006, 01:58 PM

Posted By: cmokingKeith O wrote: "Some of the posters here should read what Burdick wrote in the earlier issues of the American Card Catalog." What did he write?

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02-15-2006, 02:00 PM

Posted By: Keith O'LearyI will dig one out tonight and quote from it. Keith

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02-15-2006, 02:05 PM

Posted By: Dean HI always felt what distinguished our hobby from others is the fact that we shunned any type of alterations or enhancements. Now we are comparing cards to cars and paintings. I dont agree with the sentiment of "If they do it to cars, paintings, or whatever, then its ok for us to do it to cards". Also, I consider anything to be an alteration when it changes the "current" state of a card and not just trying to return it to its original factory look. So I personally look at soaking as an alteration. Dean

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02-15-2006, 02:16 PM

Posted By: PC--

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02-15-2006, 03:38 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaWho makes the rules in card collecting? Are the grading companies setting the rules of what is acceptable and what is not? If PSA figures out how to detect soaked cards and says they won't encapsulate them even if it's only detectable with a mass spectrometer does that make that card less desirable than a PSA 1? I know that people can collect however and whatever they want, but I find it absurd that people find it wrong to remove scrapbook residue and glue from a card if it's indetectable. To each their own though, but those folks paying $6,000 for a PSA 8 T206 common are fooling themselves to believe every PSA 8 or 9 has never been soaked.

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02-15-2006, 04:05 PM

Posted By: pete ullmanmy neighbor growing up in nj, harold rosenthal-sports writer for the herald tribune gave me this card when i was a kid. it's always been very special to me despite the 4 ugly pieces of tape that USED to cover the 4 corners. a patient of mine removed the tape for me by soaking them. i'm much happier with the appearance of the card. i agree with the artistic preservation model. as seen on antiques roadshow over and over it's perfectly acceptable and usually recommended that damaged paintings be restored. as far as i'm concerned...most vintage cards are little paintings. like hal says it's like taking a shower. but trimming, stretching, bleaching not cool and pressing/ironing out wrinkles is a tad suspect!! just my 2c pete in mn <img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009812/22.jpg">

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02-15-2006, 04:06 PM

Posted By: Keith O'Leary I didn't wanna leave everybody hanging and I'll keep looking because I haven't found what I'm looking for yet, but all my ACCs make reference to soaking cards off album pages (46, 53, 56 and 60). 1946, page 104 - "From the start, people began collecting advertising cards and soon such collecting became almost a universal hobby. While some kept their cards loose, in boxes, the usual custom was to paste them in the large old scrap books of the day. Today, these old scrap books furnish possibly three quarters of the supply of the cards. The first problem is to get them out of the albums so they may be sorted and classified. The albums themselves are worthless. Some cards can be easily removed from album pages, others defy all efforts and usually emerge somewhat damaged in the process. Such conditions must be considered in placing a value on stuck down cards. Warm water soaking will remove most cards without damage. Dealers in antiques, old books, and similar collector's items are most likely to find these cards. Most of them prefer to pass them on to collectors "as is" - by the boxful or album. Only a few care to clean, sort, and price singly. Some dealers with a large counter and mail trade can do that with profit." 1953, page 83 - (talking about albums) "Everything depends on the percentage of "good" cards. As a rule, 90% of the value is in 10% of the cards. An experienced person can "price" an old scrap album in a few minutes, but it may be necessary to handle many thousands of cards to acquire the necessary experience. Some discount is usually figured for the damage that almost always results in soaking cards off album pages. The albums themselves are worthless." 1956 says about the same thing as 1953. 1960, page 14 - "Some deduction must be made for stuck down cards as all cannot be removed without damage, especially where unsoluble glues have been used." What I was looking for was something I think Scott B made reference to...toulene. I remember reading it and it stuck in my mind. Maybe someone can help me out here...is it another older publication I'm thinking of and not the ACC? It mentioned the cleaning virtues of the chemical and how readily available it is at any local hardware store. I'll keep looking.

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02-15-2006, 04:09 PM

Posted By: pete ullmantoluene? What is toluene? Toluene is a clear, colorless liquid with a distinctive smell. Toluene occurs naturally in crude oil and in the tolu tree. It is also produced in the process of making gasoline and other fuels from crude oil and making coke from coal. Toluene is used in making paints, paint thinners, fingernail polish, lacquers, adhesives, and rubber and in some printing and leather tanning processes. pete in mn

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02-15-2006, 04:17 PM

Posted By: joe brennan 150+ posts about water. This is by far the most anal post I have read here, and granted I skipped half of the redundancy. It's water and its cardboard. It not rocket science. 1) They've been soaked and will continue to be soaked 2) Everyone here owns a soaked card 3) I don't care if mine are soaked 4) I will buy a soaked card 5) It is not altered A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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02-15-2006, 04:49 PM

Posted By: Dennis W.Because of the response to this thread I thought it might make for a new poll question. "Is soaking cards ethical or unethical?". I know I'd be curious to see what the consensus is.

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02-15-2006, 04:56 PM

Posted By: AnonymousWater/pressing removed the remnants of scrap book from the Herzog, and almost an entire back-sized piece of paper from the Pfeister. I do not have scans of the backs available, but I assure you, they are quite clean. And they are two of my most favoritist, nicest cards in my collection: <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/T206Collector/T206%20Collection/HerzogBostonSGC50.jpg" border="0" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket"></a> <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/T206Collector/T206%20Collection/PfeisterThrowingSGC70.jpg" border="0" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket"></a>

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02-15-2006, 05:31 PM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliJim, did you get a satisfactory answer to your question? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> -Al

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02-15-2006, 07:08 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldDoes slabbing alter cards??? I hate slabbed cards as much as the notion of water on a T206 ruffles some of you. Here's the deal... you guys that disdain soaking, you stay clear of it. I appreciate your stand. One of my Home Run Kisses cards I bought quite reasonably at auction, becuase it looked very rough, with paper stuck to it on both sides. A few minutes in water and it floated right off. What was an ugly card is quite presentable. I didn't tinker with the card, I did remove NON-CARD matter from the card. The card is just as it was. I won't be soaking many more T206s, I have less than a dozen to go... but if I get one of the few of the ones I'm missing, I'll gladly buy them with their backs obscured by scrap book paper, glad that I bought the card for less than it could have been, because potential Ludite bidders steered clear of a card with srap book on it. Realistically, rinsing and loosening a few bits of tobacco from a Polar Bear card actually protects the card, and stops the tobacco from further staining the card. I'm against bleach, Oxyclean, cutting and timming.... but water? let's not antagonize please.....(moderator dude)

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02-15-2006, 07:32 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzMaybe one day I can grow up just like you*********** moderator dude says "party foul"

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02-15-2006, 07:44 PM

Posted By: Henry EshelmanHEYO its gettin heated now. Thanks, Henry Eshelman Website:www.freewebs.com/vintagebaseball

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02-15-2006, 08:06 PM

Posted By: Jim NovotnyAl I dont know whether to respond or run for the hills and hide for starting a thread that got so heated. Usually when I post I kill most threads. I do appreciate the honesty of all of you and I do appreciate hearing your points of view. Being relatively new to collecting vintage cards it didnt even dawn on me that people would soak and press cards to make them longer then trim them down so they would get 8s and 9s. Since I can only afford low grade (1-3) T206s, and I dont sell my cards, and I only collect and hold them for my personal collection, I doubt that I would experience the soak/press/trim effects. However, I admit that I have taken paper off of the back of one of my T206s. At first PSA wouldnt grade the card with the paper on it and called it altered. Upon closer inspection it looked like the back was intact and when I removed the paper it had a very nice Sweet Cap back. It went back to PSA and it got a 2 which fits perfectly into my collection. So after all of this discussion I must admit that I am a bit wiser (but Ill still lay low until the smoke clears).

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02-15-2006, 08:20 PM

Posted By: Tim JamesWow,this thread has mushroomed.The bottom line is,what grade or who will give a grade when it comes to these issues.I don't think the soaking aspect would affect anything,if a card gets a high mark the bidding community will go for it.When you talk about vintage cards there is no way you can discern what has or hasn't been done to a specimen,if it gets a grade it is a good bet.I would say soaking would not have a negetive affect on the grading of a card.If it gets slabbed,who's the wiser? There is no way anyone would know.We could dream of "virgin" cards,but who could substantiate the claim?

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02-15-2006, 08:29 PM

Posted By: PC--

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02-15-2006, 08:41 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldHello Josh, where are you??? You left an email back at the beginning of this thread. I've tried to email you, but the address isn't working. If you still want to know stuff, email me and I'll respond... Gotta go now... I'm putting an envelope into my collection. I think there's a Sports Thrills inside that I'm missing... Until a few days ago I would have opened the envelope to check; but now you guys have me not wanting to alter the "dark" state of the card, I'd hate to expose it to light and alter it...

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02-16-2006, 06:33 AM

Posted By: David VarghaToluene is used in the manufacturing of methamphetamines. When confronted by potential card buyers who say that my cards have had tape removed by Toluene soaking, I simply reassure them that it is not the case and that I actually run a meth lab. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-16-2006, 09:08 AM

Posted By: steve fThis pre-war could certainly benefit from a good soaking! card photo removed. Didn't want to offend anyone (Josh or Scott). Just a reminder to a few, of life's issues that are really important. Again, I apologize if it struck a nerve... Steve F USN DAV Severe Patriot

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02-16-2006, 09:09 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Im sorry, but what is the point of posting a picture of that "card".

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02-16-2006, 09:32 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethJosh, there appears to be no limit to human stupidity. Unbelievable.

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02-16-2006, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasI am personally offended and sick that anyone would collect a card of Hitler. That might be the single most repulsive collectible I have ever seen and to the owner, what can you say? That guy killed many of my relatives and he gets a trading card? Wow!! I can't figure out who is worse Hitler or the guy that is collecting his cards. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 10:31 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinMy beloved wife's dad survived the Concentration Camps and many of his relatives were killed in the camps so I have 1st hand experience with that opinion. And yes part of me would want nothing to do with a collector such as that. But, on the other hand, it IS a card and since collecting is an individual pursuit, there is on that level nothting inherently wrong with collecting a card like that. In fact, if we dont keep his memory fresh in our mind, more people every day may forget those atrocities committed during the 3rd Reich. Look at some of the recent developements in the Middle East where they are trying to say the Holocaust never happenned. Our goal needs to be to never forget and cards is a good way to start. Best regards Rich Klein

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02-16-2006, 10:42 AM

Posted By: scott ingoldWow, I don't think we need to go there. Up to this point this thread has been great reading and very informative.

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02-16-2006, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasRich, I will respectfully disagree and say that the memories lie with the loved ones who died not those who perpetrated the crimes. We should create trading cards of those who died or those who survived Hitlers destruction. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 10:55 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...with villains. Hitler is the arch-villain of them all. My concern is less with the existence of the card than with the mentality/motivation/sensitivity/maturity of its owner. And not necessarily this owner in particular, just any owner that would deem this a part of his collection.

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02-16-2006, 10:55 AM

Posted By: identify7Three points Id like to make on this (hopefully brief) tangent. Firstly, Hitler was the cause of suffering by persons of a variety of religious beliefs, as well as persons who were singled out and harmed for non-religious reasons. What is termed the holocoust is but a portion of the pain associated with that man. Secondly, the poster of the card did not state that praise should be offered to that figure, he stated that a good soaking would be reasonable treatment. Thirdly, recent overreaction to statements made in jest, but perhaps poorly thought out, almost cost us the participation of an important contributor to this board. Please remember it is only cards, and I am only Gil

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02-16-2006, 10:56 AM

Posted By: PC--

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02-16-2006, 11:00 AM

Posted By: David VarghaI too, had relatives who were killed in Nazi concentration camps. I don't find the card offensive. I'm sure the owner's intent wasn't to glorify Hitler. As the earlier poster alluded to, Santayana's adominition that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them is prescient to this day. Oversensitivity is the politically correct order of the day that I refuse to subscribe to. The post could have been made in bad taste, but I just don't see where it is in this instance. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-16-2006, 11:01 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI agree 100% that the poster was saying that Hitler needed to be "soaked" as a form of punishment. I would agree... and this is one instance in which I would be in favor of "pressing flat, stretching and trimming" as well.

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02-16-2006, 11:03 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasI agree, but why Hitler, why not Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds? Charlie

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02-16-2006, 11:07 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI don't think Sosa or Bonds could retain any more water than their bloated steroid-filled bodies are already holding.

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02-16-2006, 11:09 AM

Posted By: AnonymousThought I would take a few minutes to clear up some obvious confusion, misinformation and misconceptions presented. Not sure if this information will be appreciated or not welcomed at all. Just the facts, Ma’am. Like it or not this is the state of the hobby and has been for sometime. Thought you should know this so you can remove all doubt and stop with the supposition. For some of you this will be a nightmare come true, others it will merely corroborate what you already knew but did not want to truly accept. The grading companies are well aware of it as you should be since you are buying the stuff they grade. Card “restoration” is commonplace among most dealers and even many advanced collectors. Whether they pay for the service from a known restorer or do it themselves, a shocking number of high profile hobbyists are engaging in it as well. It is pandemic. I am surprised more of you have not overheard dealers casually talking about this at shows while they compare work done. Dealers do it to increase their PROFIT and collectors do it to improve the appearance and VALUE of their collections. True purists (those who prefer untouched cards) are very much in the minority. Unless you are buying a collection directly from the original owner, you can assume the cards have undergone some form of “restoration.” It can be as innocent as a drop of water added to remove foreign debris or more deceitful, such as trimming and adding color. All condition cards are affected by this fact; it is not just a high grade phenomenon. Even the VG cards you all feel have been safe may suffer this affliction. This is just the undeniable business aspect of card collecting. No cosmetic problems are beyond some form of paper surgery. A few are difficult to resolve while others are very easy. Soaking, strictly for purposes of crease removal, is standard practice for everything from 19th century issues through Topps issues from the 70s. Yes, this means T204s, Cracker Jacks and even other issues that do not have smooth surfaces are fair game. The exception would be Cabinets. Crease removal can raise a card’s grade by 3 to 5 grades. If done right the creases will not reappear. Nevertheless, I have seen plenty of hack jobs that left me wondering 1) how they got through grading and 2) at what point those creases will reappear—because they do. Some here have referred to a process called “pressing.” It is a method that involves soaking and stretching in order to trim a card’s outer edges. While this can be done on many cards, it is unusual for thinner cards, like T206s, T205s and Caramel issues. The cards just aren’t thick enough to press and stretch. Thicker issues (Goudeys, post-war Topps, N172, N162, N28 and N29s) can and often do undergo this process. Getting the extra length is the easy part. Mimicking the original cut is the more difficult aspect and the true test of a card doctor’s skill. That is what separates the doctors from the EMT’s. In many of the pre-war issues there is great variance in size so sometimes it is possible to take off a little without compromising the size requirement for grading. Removing stains is another prevalent practice in the hobby. Some stains require the use of chemicals while others can vanish in water. There are very few stains which cannot be removed. The major considerations are the stain’s location and whether or not text is affected. However, stain removal is costly! Unless the stains are ordinary like pencil marks, wax and gum, this arena is usually left to professional conservationists. For the obvious reasons I am choosing to post this anonymously. Hope that will not diminish the importance of what I have written. I have been associated/involved in this hobby for many years so this information comes with a great deal of experience and knowledge. Sorry to be the messenger of bad news but somebody had to tell you. <img src="http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6199/ff87hc.jpg">

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02-16-2006, 11:09 AM

Posted By: Josh K.My last post did not assume any ill motive on the part of the poster - nevertheless, I dont think the post was clear as to its point, obviously open to misinterpretation, and could have been better thought out. To some, the image alone is offensive enough.

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02-16-2006, 11:17 AM

Posted By: steve f Rec'd a note that this post was mispercieved . The reaction was the antithesis of the intent, by a couple of collectors. Edited and removed. As a Navy vet, son of a wartime Marine, son-in-law of a D-Day vet, brother of a Green Beret Nam vet and rescue worker at the WTC I hope there is no doubting my loyalty/character. I apologize profusely to those hurt and hope the record is now straight.

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02-16-2006, 11:23 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Not a problem Steve, like I said just above, I really didnt think the post was intended to be offensive, just wasnt sure what the intent was. Thanks for the explanation. Now if we can have some comments regarding the anonymous post above we may get this thread to 200+ posts before too long.

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02-16-2006, 11:26 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasSteve, Thank you. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 11:35 AM

Posted By: scott ingoldNone taken Steve. As Josh said. I want more on the above post.

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02-16-2006, 11:40 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI guess that is ONE benefit to slabbing: The buyer knows that the card has at least not been altered or cleaned SINCE the time it was slabbed.

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02-16-2006, 11:44 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasTrimming has gotten so good that in many cases every Grading company cannot detect it. It is a significant problem. The grading companies must find a way to stay ahead of the "trimmers" because newer technologies has made the practice easier and undectable. In my opinion, that is why pre-war cards graded 7 or less have been so on fire. Until "trimming" can be beaten back by the grading companies, notice I say beaten back not eliminated because I don't think it is reasonable to ever eliminate it, true rarities will trump condition rarities. Ty Cobb in a "2" in this enviornment is more valuable than Mickey Mantle in a "9". Because they are not making any more Ty Cobb's in "2's" but Mantle "9's" are being made daily. Until certain dealers and hobbyists are called out and forced to stop this practice the trend will be away from higher grade cards and into scarce low to mid-grade cards. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 11:49 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethAssuming dealers are trimming, they aren't going to admit it, and other dealers and collectors who know apparently aren't going to "out" them, so I don't see how the scenario Charlie mentions happens.

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02-16-2006, 11:50 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisCan't the graders just MEASURE the cards? Or is the trimming also being done in conjunction with this "soaking and stretching" we are hearing about? EDITED: I re-read the post and this answers my question: "Thicker issues (Goudeys, post-war Topps, N172, N162, N28 and N29s) can and often do undergo this process. Getting the extra length is the easy part."

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02-16-2006, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasHow do you know who is trimming cards? Anyone who's submissions to grading companies have 80% "9's" 10% "9.5's/10's" and 5% no grade and 5% 7. Mint and Gem Mint cards used to be scarce, but now they are growing on trees. Did Mr. Mint (the Boards favorite guy) find a bunch of uncirculated cards recently because that's what a Mint or a Gem Mint card is" uncirculated. I have talked with 30 Year hobby veterans and they are still looking for one uncirculated hobby find. Its amazing how some dealers find them every couple of weeks. A card soaked out of an album can only become a "9" one way, soaking is not the problem. "Rototrim" is the problem, for those interested Google it. Instead of trying to find out who has a "Rototrim" find someone with nothing buy 8.5 or above inventory, that is updated weekly. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 11:57 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Charlie, Just curious, how would one find out about a dealers submission ratios - or are you just saying that we need to make certain assumptions based on the inventory being carried?

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02-16-2006, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasHal, Trimmers are looking for oversized cards or cards from years that size is all over the place, for example 1955 Bowman Baseball. Peter, I am not trying to call anyone out but rather add some information to the discussion. Personally, if a card is in a holder of one of the major companies and I think I can buy it and sell it for a profit in a short period of time, I am not very concerned. However, if I were a collector or someone who holds onto inventory for along time, I would also be very concerned. Because I think higher grades cards will be worth less as time goes on, unless something can be done. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisThis thread is getting very scary. No card is sacred. The thought of a "40-year-old virgin" card is rapidly disappearing. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-16-2006, 11:59 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJosh, Just look at the inventory. I don't think anybody wants to reveal submision information. Charli

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02-16-2006, 12:01 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasHal, You are correct, there are those individuals out there that are making decisions now that could really hurt the value of the medium to long-term baseball card market. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 12:03 PM

Posted By: Josh K.charlie, Would you say that midgrade cards are being docotored less often - the post above implied that it is commonplace regardless of the grade/condition of the card?

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02-16-2006, 12:03 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasHaving said all of this, I think the grading companies are aware of it and in there own ways are trying to fight back. But if you can trim a card in such a way that Mike Baker cannot detect it? Because Baker has the best eye and most experience in the business, not to take away from SGC or PSA but he has incredible knowledge about edges etc. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 12:05 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethCharlie I understand why you would not want to name names. But until someone names names, or a doctor or a dealer confesses, I don't think any progress is going to be made.

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02-16-2006, 12:06 PM

Posted By: Josh K.So, just what kind of Doctor is Dr. Duet anyway? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-16-2006, 12:06 PM

Posted By: David VarghaJosh -- Take one of the cert #'s on any card and start running searches on cert #'s immediately before and after that. Doing that on PSA wil often give you some "interesting" results; especially when it is 9's and 10's punctuated by "evid. of trim". DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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02-16-2006, 12:08 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Thanks David - good advice. Fortunately, Im not buying any prewar 9s and 10s (or 7s or 8s for that matter).

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02-16-2006, 12:08 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJosh, I think that there is a clear distinction between trimming and soaking and or pressing wrinkles. In my opinion, adding or removing form a card is wrong and deemed out of bounds. When I was a kid, I put my cards in books to flatten them out or would like my figure to remove gum stain or flatten stray fibers to make the cards look better. Personally, if someone buys a card and the corner is flipped up and they flattten it down and sell it to me and I cannot tell that something was added or removed I have no problem. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 12:11 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I agree in some respects, though I dont want to be the owner of the psa 4 that had a wrinkle pressed out only to find out it has returned after the card was slabbed.

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02-16-2006, 12:12 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisIt must take a lot of guts for someone to "soak and press and trim" a 1952 Topps Mantle card in an effort to raise the grade. I guess the monetary gain from turning a 3 into a 6 is probably enough to make someone take the risk. Sad.

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02-16-2006, 12:16 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethAs many of you know, way back in 1996 in VBCC #7, "Daniel Paul" (not the name he "operates" under) stated flatly that when done properly certain types of restoration were virtually impossible to detect.

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02-16-2006, 12:17 PM

Posted By: identify7I don't know, but I think that stretching photographs would require more than deionized water followed by pressing with books. I'd be real surprised if you can soak, press, stretch and then trim up a bunch of mint 9s from a pile vg Old Judge cards.

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02-16-2006, 12:17 PM

Posted By: scott ingoldI remember on the CU boards (David might as well ) That someone copied and pasted just what was mentioned. A sub # was checked as well as all of the one's before and after. What it showed was a bunch of 9's and 10's with just as many "eve" of trim sprinkled in. I forget who the submiter was but it was one of the larger ebay dealers. Don't the graders notice this ?

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02-16-2006, 12:21 PM

Posted By: scott ingoldCharlie, How would the rototrim even help ? I take it to mean that there are dealers out there using these ? Why ? Could you not use a steel ruler and xacto ? scott

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02-16-2006, 12:32 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisIs THAT why all of the old copies of VBCC Issue #7 are never available anywhere?? Crap. Did he give details on HOW to do everything? Just his admission alone is scary... especially if 10 years of "stretching and trimming" has been going on since then! <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-16-2006, 12:43 PM

Posted By: Josh K.scott, Im guessing its a much more precise cut based on what I could find out through google.

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02-16-2006, 12:53 PM

Posted By: scott ingoldJosh, I saw that stuff to. But cutting pictures is much different than 100 year old cardboard. I would think that it would still be the same as a razor. Except for a straighter cut.

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02-16-2006, 01:27 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasScott, There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. What you described is one of them. I know that there are people using Dental instruments to create rough cuts and I have heard that some of the orignal "Topps" blades are still around. These are questions that are best directed at the "Trimmers", I have never trimmed or will ever trim a card. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 01:33 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasI mentioned Mike Baker being the Best. I also want to say that SGC and Dave Foreman, are doing a great Job of Holdering only the right cards. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 01:34 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Charlie - now please tell me who the trimmers are so I can pose the question <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-16-2006, 01:37 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethCharlie your posts seem conflicting to me, on the one hand as I read you anyhow you are saying lots of trimmed cards are getting into high grade holders, on the other hand you are praising the grading services for doing a great job of catching trimmed cards. Help me understand what you are saying.

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02-16-2006, 01:39 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I read it the following: Trimmed cards are getting by all of the graders but GAI and SGC are doing the best job detecting and rejecting trims.

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02-16-2006, 01:46 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensHow about a clinic at this summers National on soaking and then we can have a debate. When that is done we all go to eat and laugh about it. I laugh just thinking about the soaking being done like it is a chemistry class at home. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I personally have no problem with it as long as only water is used. Lee

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02-16-2006, 02:21 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasPeter, To elucidate, I think the grading companies are not knowingly holdering trimmed cards, but rather the trimmers have gotten many steps ahead of the conventional halogen light and ruler. Until someone figures out a better method of ascertaining a trimmed edge from an original edge, all you can do is rest on the experience of the grader. And I think GAI and SGC are the most experienced. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 02:34 PM

Posted By: RichardSince the topic has now gravitated towards trimming, and the various methods of how it is done, I think that we can start talking about the trimming of modern cards, and how difficult it is to detect factory trimming that happend last month at Topps or Upper Deck vs. trimming after the fact to enhance the card: 1) The use of laser cutters in high end print shops to trim 2) Trimming as little as 1/64" to enhance edges so they are razor sharp 3) Sheet cut cards How in the world is a grading company going to tell the difference between a Topps blade and a Joe Schmoe blade on a 2005 Topps card? They can't. They measure the card, grade it and move on. Many people with high tech equipment are shaving modern cards and slabbing them in PSA 10 and BGS 9.5 and 10 holders.

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02-16-2006, 02:39 PM

Posted By: joeI guess this is a record for a thread. It's been beat to death. Soakers say it's ok. Collectors with soaked cards in their collections can't tell anyway. So everybody should be happy. This same subject has crept into another thread too. About the Cobb and grading companies. How about started a thread about fixing cards so they can be graded, not soaking. Someone told me there is a couple of young guys on the West coast who have been doing this for years. The grading company knew who he was and he was not able to submit cards under his name. So, he has someone else send the cards in or take them to a show for grading. The last I heard they were buying properties in Florida as investment with their large profits on "altered" cards that were able to be graded. Anyone else heard this story. Joe

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02-16-2006, 02:42 PM

Posted By: RichardJoe, are you talking about altering modern cards or prewar cards?

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02-16-2006, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellOne very well known national dealer who used to post here named names(I think on the CU boards) and I think regrets it. He has subsequently mentioned how it has hurt his business. As I recall, he named 5 well known dealers who are involved in card alteration. I tried to raise the issue on CU and LTS from the perspective of companies increasing their efforts to detect timming/pressing etc. but it was a message collectors there did not want to hear and I know PSA did not want to hear it and I was shouted down. Jim

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02-16-2006, 02:54 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellAnother dealer who is very knowledgeable about what is being done is Michael Wentz--and he is not one of the people I am referring to in the above post.

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02-16-2006, 02:55 PM

Posted By: joeRichard, was never told what kind of cards. Now that you post the question I would bet it was not on vintage cards that we talk about on this board. I forgot how much money was being spent on some of the modern cards. I just wondered if anyone else had heard anything about it. Joe

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02-16-2006, 02:57 PM

Posted By: Josh K.no point to be made, just wanted to be #200.

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02-16-2006, 03:06 PM

Posted By: David McDonaldAnd somewhere in Iowa a young collector sighs.

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02-16-2006, 03:09 PM

Posted By: JohnThe world will now come to a fiery end! I have to agree with Jim Crandall and Peter, god that hurts. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> But alteration is alteration, regardless of if it leaves noticeable signs. I would be pissed to know that someone sold me a SGC 80 for full boat only to find out he soaked and restored the card and never mentioned the fact to me. And if you guys have no problem with this then I think someone here can sell a Just So Burkett as long as there is no evidence that it was restored. To me this is like not disclaiming that a car was in a wreck and was re-painted before purchase. Maybe the hobby needs CardFax.

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02-16-2006, 03:16 PM

Posted By: Josh K.I disagree John - The Burkett has had something added to the card that wasnt there - namely paper. Completely different situation.

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02-16-2006, 03:17 PM

Posted By: John“I am personally offended and sick that anyone would collect a card of Hitler. That might be the single most repulsive collectible I have ever seen and to the owner, what can you say? That guy killed many of my relatives and he gets a trading card? Wow!! I can't figure out who is worse Hitler or the guy that is collecting his cards.” And as for this comment, I have been down this road many times here; if this were the case then half of the world’s museums would be empty! I guess those crazy Catholics should be condemned too for that Shroud of Turin, I mean what kind of sick bastard would want Jesus’s so called burial cloth! And those insane plane collectors with their WW2 fighter planes who would want a plane that killed thousands of people, lets go destroy that Enola Gay Charlie you and me… Oh and by the way Charlie I have quite a few rare non-sports cards that depict Hitler and the Nazi Party, in fact some of them came from a lot of non-sports in a Masto auction. So go ahead and label me and Mastronet anti-Semitic, neo-nazi fascists while you’re on your soapbox.

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02-16-2006, 03:25 PM

Posted By: JohnOk on the Burkett point taken, but you have no issue with me selling you a card that was cleaned from filth to new only to not disclaim it to you because it made it in a holder. To me I think were all splitting hairs here between stealing a pack of gum and a car. To me it’s stealing either way but everyone has his or her own way of twisting it to fit his or her mold.

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02-16-2006, 03:25 PM

Posted By: Josh K.why dont we keep this on the current point - charlie was by no means the only one who found the post puzzling, offensive, etc. Steve explained and all was forgotten/forgiven - why bring it back up now?

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02-16-2006, 03:27 PM

Posted By: JohnBecause I just got around to reading it Josh, I didn’t realize there was time limit to respond to comments made or that I needed your permission. I apologize for voicing an opinion to the comments made on a discussion forum.

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02-16-2006, 03:28 PM

Posted By: Josh K.John, I actually would have no problem with a card that was soaked to remove paper that shouldnt have been there in the first place - disclosed or not, it wouldnt affect my bid. Similarly, if you took a qtip and water and got rid of a small amount of dirt, I would still take the card. I have a bigger problem with chemical cleaners or some other sort of professional restoration.

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02-16-2006, 03:31 PM

Posted By: Josh K.You certainly dont need my permission - it just came across as an attack on a tangental topic that was dead and buried. I found it unnecessary, if you or others disagree, then by all means go right ahead and blast away.

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02-16-2006, 03:44 PM

Posted By: JohnThis is what is so funny about this forum, Charlie made a comment saying that people who would collect items of dark historical background , were in a fact on the same level if not worse than that of what they may collect. How was that not an attack from Charlie read his quote above. I simply make an educated comment back stating that he should re-think before he labels people, and then I give insight to my thoughts and why I disagree. It now becomes an attack? I also like how a few posters seem to dictate what topics are dead and what’s not, how many moderators does this place have now??? To me Charlie’s comment holds the same amount of water as saying because you collect cards of Ty Cobb a known racist that you must hate black people. Now I’m going to go bid on some Ruth cards and drink some cold beers, sleep with some women and eat to many hot dogs. Sorry I’ll try not to put my 2 cents in anymore on this post Josh, no since having a discussion on a discussion forum huh? Where’s Blackheart the attacker when you need him???

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02-16-2006, 03:56 PM

Posted By: Charlie Barokas "To me Charlie’s comment holds the same amount of water as saying because you collect cards of Ty Cobb a known racist that you must hate black people. Now I’m going to go bid on some Ruth cards and drink some cold beers, sleep with some women and eat to many hot dogs" John, If you want to collect Hitler memorabilla thats cool. In fact, their are many historical documents or artifacts related to Hitler that need to be in musuems etc but collectible is much different than a historical artifact. Ty Cobb stood for many good things, Hitler had zero redeeming qualities. Its an amazingly stupid comparison you made between baseball players and their faults that caused zero deaths to a person who caused millions of deaths. To make that comparison exposes either your ignorance or stupidtiy? You are making light of a subject that should not be discussed here. I am sure there are some other chat boards for Hitler?

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02-16-2006, 04:04 PM

Posted By: scott ingoldSeems to me there was no other reason for the recent comments re: Hitler (current remarks) than to start a disagreement. Oh well. Still a great thread if we can keep it on topic.

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02-16-2006, 04:19 PM

Posted By: John“Ty Cobb stood for many good things” Well besides a known racist, beating a man with no hands and stabbing a guy, I’m sure was a real sweetheart. ”Hitler had zero redeeming qualities”. Some scholars may argue that point with you while a total freaking nut job (I agree), Hitler was good at the re-structuring and economic growth of Germany. This is in no way a radical thought, and he is an historical figure regardless of what he did. I also have cards of Edwin Booth who’s brother John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, should I get rid of those to. How about all those Pirate cards put out by Allen & Ginter didn’t they kill rape and pillage? Or were those of happy pirates? I also collect rare weapons (swords, armor, guns) but I’ll make sure none of them have a violent past just for you Charlie. “To make that comparison exposes either your ignorance or stupidtiy?” Who’s attacking who? Charlie if you would like to discuss in more detail and have an educated discussion off line feel free to email me, if you can take your foot out of your mouth long enough to talk, without labeling people with ridiculous comments that they must be Nazi’s and that history can never be discussed if it offends someone. That’s pure ignorance plain and simple. Also for the record before you call someone stupid, try ending stupidity with ity not tiy just a thought.

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02-16-2006, 04:30 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasJohn, Its a shame you want to ruin this thread. I stand by remarks. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 04:50 PM

Posted By: JohnI was simply responding to your comments above, I hope you don’t stand by this remark. “I am personally offended and sick that anyone would collect a card of Hitler. That might be the single most repulsive collectible I have ever seen and to the owner, what can you say? That guy killed many of my relatives and he gets a trading card? Wow!! I can't figure out who is worse Hitler or the guy that is collecting his cards.” I was hoping how you might see, that you could very well be insulting some of your fellow collectors who may collect items that could fall under your generalizations about things (Horrors Of War, Non-Sports Issues), hence labeling someone something that he’s not or un-fairly grouping him in with a group. But I wont ruin this thread, I apologize for ruining the thread to any one who feels I did. Leon feel free to delete all of my comments so I don’t ruin the forum for any one, must be all those damn questionable collectibles and artifacts I have collected making me such an evil spiteful person.

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02-16-2006, 04:50 PM

Posted By: John EThis may be a completely stupid suggestion, but couldn't the grading companies set a minimum weight requirement for a card which would help detect trimming and stretching. This probably would only work for cards that would normally grade a 6 or better, since normal wear might account for weight loss on lower grade cards. In addition, it would have to only apply to cards where there is uniformity in size.

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02-16-2006, 05:01 PM

Posted By: leonI think this is a very good thread...almost strayed a few times but not too badly. I will politely ask that we not talk about Hitler stuff anymore in this thread. I don't know of a Pre-WWII baseball card with him on it. Notice, I said "in this thread" because I don't really ever want to deny some discussion, on almost anything, if it can circle back around to what the board is about. For the record there are 4 moderators on the board but I do make most of the decisions.....hence the "forum owner" part. Now carry on....oh yeah, I also don't have a problem with a Q tip and water on a card, or possibly soaking to ONLY get remnants off, or gum erasing a mark. I spoke with some principles of one of the largest auction houses yesterday and they asked my stand on this subject. I told them what I just stated and I won't be a part of anything else....although I do know it goes on...but so do a lot of things I won't do or be a part of....regards edited to say that I don't mean to sound like a "do-gooder"..cause I ain't <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-16-2006, 05:27 PM

Posted By: Josh K..

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02-16-2006, 05:53 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI may have to rethink my position. Damn--I thought he said he was leaving the boards.

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02-16-2006, 05:56 PM

Posted By: BrianIt wouldn't be the first time someone has left a board, then returned, then left, then returned, then get banned, then return, etc.

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02-16-2006, 05:57 PM

Posted By: MANONTHEROCKLeon, Thanks for ending the mindless Hitler discussion. And for the record I agree with Josh. Moving on, instead of naming dealers who are believed or known to be "trimmers" I feel it might be better to name dealers than are believed or known to not "trim". In my opinion, the following dealers do not "trim" cards! 1.Wayne Varner 2.Steve Hart 3.Andy Madec 4.J.P. Cohen I will start with these as they are the first that come to my mind. Charlie

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02-16-2006, 06:13 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldGentlemen, and Ladies, too... This thread was about soaking, not an evil man of decades past. To clarify, my support of soaking a T206 to remove dirt, scrapbook paper, and paste remains is in no way an endorsment of stretching and trimming a card. I'm absolutely against that. Completely. I'd think that measuring the frame line of the "picture" would reveal a stretched T206. Someone back up there mentioned soaking a 1952 Mantle. Do that only if you dislike the Mik, or if you want to decrease the card population, or it is your soon-to-be ex-wife's Mantle and you're destroying it for revenge... It is my understanding that 1952 Topps won't survive water. Regardless of everyone's position on soaking, it is really great to be "soaked" with this fountain of knowledge. You guys are great! Even the ones of you who are wrong on this!

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02-16-2006, 06:13 PM

Posted By: JohnEveryone seems to miss my point I only mentioned you know who because it was mentioned above. Not because I enjoy or like the topic. My point is very simple there are countless items, which could be collected, that come from desperate and disturbing times throughout history Civil War, WW2, Crusades etc. To generalize as Charlie did that anyone who would collect any items that may be connected in any way with a historical figure or time was in fact being supportive of beliefs or being on the same level as that of the historical item. If you gentleman can’t see the wrong in that statement he made, then its best I not try to explain anymore. I never claimed to support anyone’s beliefs or historical views just pointing out the facts of history. Quite frankly I don’t appreciate the implied tones from the above posts that I do. Also one more point to ponder. The Roman army was one of the most brutal and destructive forces that have ever walked the earth, they were also responsible for thousands if not millions of Jewish deaths too. I wonder if I mentioned that I had a Roman uniform or coin collection would people be so offended. No I am not Jewish, but that should have little baring on rather or not I can understand or comprehend tragic times, or have an idea regarding the historical significance of times throughout history, and or have an educated opinion of such.