No more Fort Washington show??? [Archive]

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02-03-2006, 11:28 AM

Posted By: William BrumbachI'm sure the show will find a new home (read, OH GOD I HOPE IT FINDS A NEW HOME!!!) just as it did when the beloved George Washingon motel closed it's doors and the Willow Grove show became the Fort Washington show. The last Willow Grove show I went to was in 1992 I believe and it was raining and musty and nasty. I had to park on the muddy grass at the bottom of the hill out front and when I was leaving my car darn near slid sideways on me. I hope they can find someplace as musty and nasty now, I miss it.

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02-03-2006, 01:33 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAt the old Willow Grove Motor Inn, or whatever it was called, the ceiling would leak when it rained and it wasn't unusual to find ants in your room. It was quite a place. I think it was eventually condemned, or should have been.

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02-03-2006, 02:02 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBarry.........You recall correctly, that was certainly the deteriorating condition of the George Washington (GW) Motor Lodge and Convention Center in Willow Grove by the early '90s. But, these conditions did not detract from the tremendous experience of those bygone days of this great Philly Show. I don't have the time or space here to re-live them. I do remember, however, in 1981 when I first started at Willow Grove, on Sunday mornings the Restaurant at the GW would spread out a huge breakfast buffet (free) and all us dealers would put on a great feed to start the day. You can ask any dealer or attendee that frequented this Philly Show during the 1980's of their experiences....and the enthusiasm in their voice while relating their stories is unbelievable. And, the stories are endless

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02-03-2006, 02:03 PM

Posted By: William BrumbachI believe that the old George Washington Motor Lodge in Willow Grove was torn down to make way for improving that PA Turnpike interchange. There was another George Washington Motor Lodge in Bensalem at the Rt. 1 turnpike interchange that was also closed/condemned and eventually torn down but nothing has been done with that site to date. Maybe they can move the show to the Valley Forge convention center near the King of Prussia Mall, I don't know where else they could hold it. Reninger's has their antique shows at Valley Forge annually or semi-annually I think.

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02-03-2006, 02:08 PM

Posted By: tbobMuddy roads? Hey you guys should live where I do and not have a card show of any kind within a 500 mile radius in any direction. It's hell living in a vintage card barren wasteland...

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02-03-2006, 02:11 PM

Posted By: pete ullmani feel your pain bob...i moved to mn from the east...where lots of action is and now Chicago is close as it gets! pete in mn

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02-03-2006, 02:12 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI haven't attended a show in many years but I must agree with Ted that the Willow Grove show of the 80's was really something to look forward to. I would always come home with a briefcase full of vintage stuff.

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02-03-2006, 02:12 PM

Posted By: jay behrenswaves to Bob across the vast vintage wasteland that is the Midwest Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-03-2006, 02:13 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWilliam Four Interchanges along the PA Pike (from the Delaware to Valley Forge had a Geo. Washington Motor Lodge). Two major Shows in the area were held at Willow Grove and Valley Forge Lodges. The current setting at the Valley Forge Convention Ctr. is not really accomodating for a BB card Show. There are multi-levels which have in the past proven to be in-equitable to dealers and collectors.

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02-03-2006, 02:18 PM

Posted By: jay behrensThe very first card I went to was the old Thunderbird show put on by Mansco Perry in 1980. The next show I went to was Willow Grove in the Spring of 1982. Talk about a drool fest. I walked away from that show with my first Goudeys and caramel cards as well as some n162s along with a mitt full of t-cards. Got to see a lot rare issues other neat stuff. A big thanks goes out to Ron Oser to was kind enough to let a hick from MN that hung out at his store to help him at the show and camp out at his table. It was definately one of the most memberable shows I ever attended. Between, Ron, Bill Bossert and others at this show, I got a real education about vintage cards. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-03-2006, 03:25 PM

Posted By: barrysloateDoes anyone remember Wayne Miller, who would set up at every show and have a seemingly endless supply of T206?

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02-03-2006, 04:03 PM

Posted By: Mark MacraeTed...We've talked much about this in the past, but the Willow Grove shows of the 1980's were as good or better than the National, in the true heyday of the hobby. There was an abundance of great material circulating, and a great selection of personalities from the Eastern US that attended the show. The post show dinners (Bookbinders) and 76ers games in winter were always a lot of fun. First time attendees to the December show would initially chuckle when they saw me wearing shorts. It was only 25 degrees outside, but once you got inside it was 80, like a sauna.. The GW lodge, itself, had "charm", sort of like a homeless shelter. Charm being defined as a leaky roof over your teacup-saucer shaped mattress. If you were lucky you'd get a room with heat that worked. For the March & December shows, mine never worked. For May & September I'd get the room where the heat wouldn't shut off... When the GW lodge served the continental breakfast it was good the first few years, until (Seinfeld fans can relate) Poppy started getting sloppy..... Across the grass at the convention center the "Friday Night ballpark supper" started out ok. By the mid 80's, the hot dogs resembled a St Patrick's day Parade (jiggly & green). I think the only guy that liked them was the overweight, African American maintenance man that was frequently seen (at rainy shows) pushing around 30 gallon plastic garbage cans trying to contain most of the rainwater gushing in from the dozens of leaks in the ceiling. He probably received them as part of his compensation package, poor thing...If you ever set up at Willow Grove, you'd remember the 'generous' room behind the table. Even Teddy Z, at 5 foot five and 130 pounds dripping wet had a hard time manuevering back there. God forbid, if Lou Avon or Kit Young were set up on either side of you, you better bring food for a few days and a colastomy bag, because you weren't going anywhere....Ron Oser always had a great display, but I felt sorry for his location, right next to the legendary restrooms...I'll spare the masses here, but suffice it to say that Oser's customers usually wouldn't hang around too long talking with him. For those of you who have been to an Oakland Raiders game in the last five years, let just say it was like the men's room at halftime......Barry, not sure what happened to Wayne Miller...Great guy to deal with though......It was a memorable time for anyone who attended, and Ted, you're right its very easy to talk about at length Thankfully many things change for the better. I'm sure Schmeirer will find an appropriate new location, hopefully with less 'charm' that the GW Lodge.....

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02-03-2006, 05:06 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI know Wayne dropped out of the hobby even before the show left Willow Grove. I just think he got tired of it. And I do distinctly remember where Ron Oser's table was, in the far corner. There was that awful snack bar, terrible accomodations, but nobody would miss that show for the world.

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02-03-2006, 05:42 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI just had a conversation with Bob Schmierer and he assures us that the March and May Shows will be as scheduled at the Expo Center. And, he is aggressively pursuing a new location for the September and December Shows.

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02-03-2006, 06:22 PM

Posted By: Mark RiosHope the tradition continues... .....not many decent shows around. Mark

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02-03-2006, 06:40 PM

Posted By: jay behrensWayne Miller was the dealer I got most of my t206s from at that show. The nice ones (VG/Ex-ish) cost a buck each and the G+ cost me 50 cents. Man, think it took so long to complete a set back then, lol. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-03-2006, 06:42 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)I've only attended one Ft Washington show but I thought it was one of the best shows around. I only wish that we could have a quality show such as that four times a year in Southern California.

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02-03-2006, 06:43 PM

Posted By: Charlie O'NealWhoever mentioned about moving it to the King of Prussia...that would be super cool since I will live within 5 miles of it.

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02-04-2006, 01:54 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisMark Your post brings back many delightful memories. Mark was at Table #38, March 1983 Show, and found a short & friendly Greek (thats me) with a mustache and lots of Vintage cards priced very reasonably. We've been great friends ever since. Wayne Miller's table was opposite me and he was indeed the "T206 King". It always amazed me how show after show he'd show up with fresh material. We used to accuse him of printing the cards in his basement. Then just down the aisle from me was the "Mr Mint quadrangle", consisting of Al Rosen, Dick DeCoursey, John Broggi and Brian Morris....what a crew ! Ron Oser's table was next too the legendary rest room.....an "Outhouse" within the building. About the only major regret I have had in sportscard deals was with Ron. He had 2 - 1948 Bowman George Mikan cards (selling each for $40.). I gave him two crisp $20's for one. And always the great guy that Ron is, he offered me the 2nd one for $25.....I passed on it; and, have regretted ever since. The "walk-ins" back then were UNBELIEVABLE....from ton's of 1950's cards to Old Judges, T-cards (A & G, N162, T201-216), Goudeys, PlayBalls, and many esoteric sets seldom seen nowa- days. But, what was really mind-boggling was that I ended up with more than my share of them. This always surprised me since there were at least a hundred "big-time" dealers there and the competition was fierce. It pays to have a friendly smile. "THAT'S ALL FOR NOW FOLKS"

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02-06-2006, 08:31 AM

Posted By: Pennsylvania TedBarry I can appreciate you comments regarding the snack area, as I recall that your table was located opposite it. And, your recollection is correct, Wayne Miller left the hobby before the Philly Show switched to Ft. Washington. In fact, I think I can still recall the exact location of most of the major dealers in the Willow Grove facility back in the 1980's. It's amazing how much a part of our lives the Willow Grove Show was back then; and, still is in the abstract of our memories. There was a great seafood restaurant just behind the facility by the name of "The Boston Sea Party". It offered 2 "piers" of seafood to choose from (all that you could eat - buffet style). And, a 3rd pier which offered a large selection of really great deserts....all for only $16 per person. Then this franchise (for unknown reasons) closed in 1986. And, a Marriott Courtyard was built in its place. That turned out to a welcomed change, since many dealers (and collectors) could now stay in better accomodations than the old Geo. Washington Motor Lodge.

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02-07-2006, 06:54 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinI did eat at what might have been the last bastion of that chain in Houston Texas of all places in about 1993. And as for the old Willow Grove show, between that show and the National was for a time the best way to keep informed on the hobby business. Rich

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02-07-2006, 07:05 AM

Posted By: leonAs for the Boston Sea Party that was the best seafood buffet I have ever had, and it was in Houston, several years before '93. I think it was $16.99 and had everything you can imagine on it. I know as I love to eat <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> best ....

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02-07-2006, 07:17 AM

Posted By: Scott MosleyTed, Barry and others... Was Wayne Miller from Maryland? I know the name is familiar and am trying to remember if we dealt with him in some of the shows we went to in the late 70s/early 80s... Scott

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02-07-2006, 08:06 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMaryland rings a bell, but I never did any mail order with him, we just dealt in person at the show.

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02-07-2006, 08:34 AM

Posted By: Bill ToddYes, Wayne was (is?) from Maryland, Columbia to be exact--halfway between Baltimore and Washington. He kept a few cards on consignment in the coin shop I worked in at the time. Sold me my first cards--a pretty T-204 of Gabby Street and a diamond-cut Johnson/Street T-201. I still have them. Bill

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02-07-2006, 08:37 AM

Posted By: barrysloateColumbia Md- that's it. I remember it now.

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02-07-2006, 08:44 AM

Posted By: Rich KleinBecause Wayne Miller was a pretty good magician as well and I still have my signed "baseball" card of him which describes his skill. Rich

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02-07-2006, 09:35 AM

Posted By: Scott MosleyBill and Barry, Thanks for confirming this... I knew the name was familiar. The fact that he was from Maryland cements my memories of dealing with him. Many of the T206s in my near set came from Wayne and his seemingly endless supply. Great guy to deal with as others have stated. Ted, Barry, Mark and others... Thanks for sharing some of your memories of the "good ole days" from the early Willow Grove shows. It brings back a lot of memories of my own walking up and down the aisles begging my father to purchase this card or that... Scott

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02-07-2006, 09:48 AM

Posted By: Jerry SpillmanI'm pretty sure Wayne's last show was the 1984 NSCC in Parsippany, NJ. When I last spoke to him and his wife I remember that he had decided to go into show business as magician. Never heard from or about him again. There was only a March and September Willow Grove show in the late 1970s. Some of the other regular table holders then were Tom Reid, Bob Thing, Mike Gordon, Frank and Vivian Barning, Joel and Walter Hall, and Don Flanagan. An invitation by Rob Lipson and Bill Mastro to view some incredible baseball items they had for sale in their hotel room was the highlight of the show.

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02-07-2006, 10:13 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI probably started going to Willow Grove in 1984 and he was around for a few years after that. Late 80's was probably his swan song.

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02-07-2006, 01:45 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJerry Spillman I believe you are correct, that Wayne's last National was the 1984 North Jersey Show. But, he continued doing the Willow Grove Show into the late '80s. This I know, as his table was directly across the aisle from mine. And, you are right about the Friday, pre-show, activity that went on in the rooms of the GW Motor Lodge. It was amazing what great stuff most of the dealers would bring, after not having seen each other in 7 months. And, this is the site where the "Gretzky-Gidwitz-Spiegel" T206 WAGNER first appeared back in 1986 (or '87). Leon You were lucky in Houston with the Boston Sea Party last- ing into the early '90s. I often frequented this franchise in Denver, Carol Stream (near Chicago), Cherry Hill (NJ), and Willow Grove; and, the food was consistently great in all these places. Unfortunately, they all closed down by the late 1980's.

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02-07-2006, 01:57 PM

Posted By: leonLike I said "it was several years before 1993"...I came to Dallas in 1987 and it was a year or two before that.....it was some great food though...I wish I would have been in the hobby back then. I was too busy chasing skirts and getting into mischief.....

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02-07-2006, 06:52 PM

Posted By: willWould one of you please describe Wayne? Thanks - Will

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02-08-2006, 05:35 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisWill Last time (early '90s) I saw Wayne he was visiting the Willow Grove Show. So, this is a dated description.....he is about 5:8 - 5:10 inches tall. It's hard to guess his actual height since he always stood with a slight bent. He has a clean cut look with brown curly hair and hazel (or green) eyes. Very soft spoken and a real friendly guy. Perhaps, some other member can add to this description.

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02-08-2006, 06:41 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI finally discovered my Philly Show rosters from 15 - 20 years ago. I, first, must correct my previously stated "last" show date for Wayne Miller; which I stated was in the late '80s. The Sept. 1990 Show appears to be Wayne's last one at Willow Grove. The subsequent Show in March 1991 indicates that another Wayne (Varner) and Mike Wheat and Bill Zimpleman (Doubleheaders) were at Wayne Miller's Table location. And, Wayne is no longer on the Dealer Roster.

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02-08-2006, 08:25 AM

Posted By: Bill ToddHere's a picture of Wayne on his current Web site. His wife looks a lot different than I remember, but Wayne's about the same. Bill <a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/magiccarpet/WebMCE/mce.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://mywebpages.comcast.net/magiccarpet/WebMCE/mce.html</a>

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02-08-2006, 09:48 AM

Posted By: barrysloateYep- that's him alright. He looks a little older of course but about the same. Now that I think about it, he would hold stacks of T206 rather deftly- hard to explain, but I guess with kind of a magician's touch.

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02-08-2006, 10:00 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThank's to Bill Todd for providing Wayne's email address, I just sent him a lengthy note to say hello and gave him a link to our site. Who knows, maybe he will respond.

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02-08-2006, 11:26 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI just got a very nice email from Wayne and he says hello to everyone and even asked me to post it. Of course, I will have to wait for my wife to get home and help me since I haven't a clue, but we'll post it on this thread this evening.

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02-08-2006, 02:53 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHi Barry: of course i remember you. i miss those early days and think about great people like you all the time. I read the thread and it was nice to see old friends like Ted Z, Bill Todd, Rich Klein, Jay B, etc. I did leave the card hobby in 1992. my last show was the National that year. my wife did not want to travel anymore to shows and that left me either alone or hiring so i decided to give it a rest. 14 years later i am still resting we do perform magic and clowning (Ellen is a a real pro with audiences especially kids) and i do the magic. i now have a rather impressive magic collection to replace the baseball card collection i sold. i collect antique magic books specializing in the 19th century. kind of like the Old Judges of magic. i just love the Victorian era whether it be baseball or magic. a lot of people knew i was a magician including Alan Rosen, Phil Spector, Dick DeCourcey, Bill Huggins. As a matter of fact i performed at Bill's house on Super Bowl Sunday. I have kept in touch with Bill even golfing occasionally with him. he is my oldest friend in the hobby. actually i am a pretty good magician having won the originality contest in our Columbia, MD club three times and once at a regional convention in Pennsylvania. there is no greater thrill than getting laughter and applause from an audience. it keeps me young (at 56 now). i could go on for hours. it was really a trip down memory lane hearing from you. say hi to the rest of the T206 gang for me. if you want you can post this on the thread you sent me. i appreciate all the kind words from the posters. must have been the good prices <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> best regards, wayne

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02-09-2006, 06:23 AM

Posted By: leonHey Barry, That was certainly a nice email from a long ago collector/dealer. You're story, on the phone with me, about the $6.00 nrmt/mt T206's he had, that folks would squawk about as the book was $4.00 on them, was interesting too. Times have certainly changed. Wayne sounds like a very nice gentleman.....best regards

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02-09-2006, 07:15 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisLEON and BARRY I can certainly vouch for Barry's $6/com. on acquiring T206 cards back in the early 1980's; as, that is how I put together my first set relatively cheap. My 521-st card (Magie) in that set cost me only $600 (for a Vg one). If I recall correctly, at the San Francisco National (in 1986 or '87) T206 card prices took a significant "hike". Of course they were very undervalued back in the early '80s (and especially if you compared them to a Pete Rose rookie at that time which was selling for $250 and climbing). T-Rex Ted

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02-09-2006, 08:40 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI think about half my t206s came from Wayne. Nice to know he still remembers my name. Then again, there weren't many punk rockers collecting vintage cards in the 80s. The 1987 National in SF was the first one I set up at. I remember t206s costing about $50 NM at the start of the show and once word started getting around about Copeland's buyers, the prices jumped to $100 pretty fast.The highlights of that show for me were buying a complete set of Sports Kings in about Ex, a nice group of high number Bowman basketball including 2 Mikans and rifling Mike Jasperson's trunk with his father's wire photo collection and finding some Gehrig and Ruth photos he missed and talking him into selling them to me. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-09-2006, 01:38 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisJay B Thanks for confirming my recollection of when T206 card prices suddenly "jumped up" (almost an order of magnitude); and why this occurred at the SF National. This news reveberated thru the hobby coast-to-coast in the summer of 1987 and by the September Willow Grove show prices on most T-cards reflected this significant increase. Also, I clearly recollect that all Mantle cards went up 4-fold. For example, I specifically recall selling a 1951 Bowman Mantle for $200 earlier in 1987 at the March WG show. By the Sept. show, the same Mantle card was selling for anywhere from $800 - $1000. Even an easy to find ExMt 1966 Topps Mantle jumped from $50 to $200, overnite.

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02-09-2006, 02:22 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThat just shows the effect a single collector had on the market, when a Jim Copeland changed the price structure for all vintage cards and forced the entire collecting community to join the bandwagon. Today, however, there are many collectors with the means of a Copeland and the market is much deeper. That's a good sign.

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02-09-2006, 10:49 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI had forgetten about the Mantle situation too. The other memorable experience fromt that show was screaming at Rosen "I am not your wholesaler!" after he tried cherry pick my cases, demand I give him an outrageous discount and getting upset with me when I wouldn't cut him any more than 10% off. When I asked him if he would ever give me that kind of price break on anyhting I bought from him, he said no. So why the hell would I give him a huge discount? One other memerable transaction was selling a Reggie Jackson rookie card to Reggie Jackson. I thought that was pretty neat. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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02-10-2006, 04:31 AM

Posted By: Tom BatchelorDo any of you remember Marco Rol ? I worked for him at Southern Cards in Charlottesville, Va. while I was in college and med school in the mid to late 80s. I remember he always spoke fondly of the Willow Grove show and mentioned several of your names. I was really fortunate to be working for him when he purchased several hundred mint T cards from an older gentleman that walked up to him at a show in Richmond. I bet some of you on this board bought some of those cards from him. I remember that he let us cherry pick as many as we wanted for $100 each. Sure wish I still had them. If anyone knows where he is, I would love to contact him. Thanks in advance.

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02-10-2006, 04:44 AM

Posted By: TroyTom, I think he promotes the Collector's Showcase of America shows with Niall Hayden in Chantilly,VA. Their email address is csashows@aol.com. Your Welcome

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02-10-2006, 04:50 AM

Posted By: Tom BatchelorThanks Troy. I remember Niall well too. He lived in a loft above Marco's store for awhile in college. I can't wait to contact them.

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02-10-2006, 05:39 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisBarry No argument regarding the effect on BB card prices by Jim Copeland in '87. However, he's just one person. There were many more significant factors that affected the sudden rise of card prices across board that year. Interest rates were significantly dropping. For example, I re-financed my mortgage (from 14% rate when my house was built in 1983) to 8% in 1987. In addition, that fall we had a scare when the Stock Market took a big dive. Many Stocks' investors switched over to the "safer" collectibles markets. Also, in the process of re-financing, people were deriving extra cash from their equity and spending it. I did exactly that and with these extra $$$$ I bought BB cards. The combination of all these factors in '87, and into the 1990's, really "stoked" a "bull market" in the BB card hobby during that period.

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02-10-2006, 06:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateNo question there was a confluence of events that triggered the rise of card prices, among them that wealthy Americans were getting wealthier and looking for places to put their cash. But if I had to come up with a single factor it is that baseball cards are really aesthetically pleasing. People just like to have them and collect them and look at them (I can no longer say "and hold them" because they are imprisoned in slabs). And a seemingly endless number of people keep coming into the hobby. But that is today. Prior to 1990, it was unusual for someone like Jim Copeland to sink such enormous sums of money into baseball cards.