Was Honus Wagner really against tobacco ?

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Posted By: <b>Genaro</b><p>I came across this picture and found it very curious. If he was so dead against having a card of his in a pack of cigarettes why did he let someone use his name and likeness to sell cigars. Any thoughts? He was also on many other tobacco cards, Just wondering if there is another plausible story as to why they may have pulled his card from the T206.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139119232.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I've also heard that he simply was demanding more money. I never have heard a definiteive reason why.

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Posted By: <b>Genaro</b><p>I have read in several publications that he was taking a stand against the sale of cigarettes to kids. His wife till her death and now his surviving relatives are holding to that story, but the further evidence may be he wanted more money plain and simple.

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Posted By: <b>Zach Smith</b><p>Yeah, I've heard the T-206 issue was more about him not getting enough monetary compensation for his likeness on the card vice his being against tobacco... will we ever really know?

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>This post could get really long. <br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>Genaro</b><p><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139121260.JPG"> <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139121526.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1139121786.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>By the way that 5 Cent Cigar card above is not authentic, it was designed in the 1990s (based on the tobacco label). It has been the topic of quite a few posts in the past 7 years or so. You will see maybe 1-4 of them a year on eBay.<br /><br /> IF YOU EVER SEE ONE DONT BUY IT!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>zach</b><p>Ditto to what Frank said. They show up a few times and people bid on them into the hundreds. The Cigar label however that uses the same image is authentic but very very tough.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>There was a 1912 Sporting News article in which Wagner states that his reason for not allowing his inclusion in the ATC tobbacco packs (T206) was that he did not want to support the idea of kids buying cigarettes in hopes of getting his picture.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>He may have been unaware of some of the others like Kottons which apparently were not big seller or were not widely distributed given how few examples remain today. The American Tobacco Company seems to have been upfront with players and asked for their signed permission. At least some players, including Wagner were offered money for the permission. Wagner was offered $10, which he turned down. <br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Does anyone have a copy of that 1912 TSN article Jim is referring to, or at least a date of the article?<br /><br />I have searched the Sporting News (available at <a href="http://www.paperofrecord.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.paperofrecord.com</a>, discounted rate for SABR members) for 1912 with Wagner as the search term, and none of the hits match the article (although due to the quality of the microfilm that has been digitized, misses are relatively common)<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Max,<br />It is the October 24th, 1912 issue. <br /><br />By the way I made a mistake about the offered payment. I do not know what Wagner was offered, but the sportswriter who was sent to get Wagner's approval was offered $10 commission for his agreement. Not wanting the sportswriter to be adversly affected, Wagner sent him a $10 check to compensate for the $10 commission he would not be getting from ATC.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Thanks Jim. I have located the article. The writer Ralph S. Davie doesn't name the tobacco company, but indicates that it made contact with Honus through local writer, asking for a photo of Honus, and seeking his permission to use the photo. The company promised a "liberal fee". The writer continues that Honus replied and stated he didn't "care to have his pleasure in a packet of cigarets..." and refusing the offer.<br /><br />I haven't heard of Davie before. Does anyone have any information on him?<br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The story behind the fake Wagner 5 cent Cigar trade card is that the labels are real. In 1993 a man who makes reprint tin signs made a sign based on the label. He changed the design slightly for the sign, including adding the 5 cents at the bottom. He marketed the tin signs as his own modern creations, so he wasn't trying to fool anyone. The forgery is a reprint of the tin sign not the original label. When shown a picture of the card, the man who made the tin sign said the cards couldn't be original as they had his 1993 design.

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>I've seen a few of these floating around on ebay lately, fake too?<br /><br /><img src="http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/18/24/bb_1.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>If you're seeing whiskey cards floating, it's time to quit sniffing your T206s.<br /><br />The pictured card is being offered in a private eBay auction by an Ohio seller who doesn't claim the card is original or even old ... As I say, it doesn't matter that a card is fake if you don't buy it. It only matters when you by it. And I doubt anyone on this board is going to buy this card.<br /><br />It is always recommended that total beginners set up a framework for purchasing (no private auctions, acceptable return guarantee, seller clearly states what the item is, etc), not because it makes them better at authenticating cards but because it will cause them to automatically avoid purchasing many fakes. A beginner who knows to avoid private auctions will pass on this card, just as Rob Lifson would pass on this card. This illustrates the beauty of good bidding rules-- a total beginner who started last week can be just as good at passing on this card as the President of a million dollar auction house.

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Posted By: <b>zach</b><p>Ben, yes the ones you've seen on ebay are fake. I do know of some real examples so it was produced but the ones on ebay recently have all been fake.<br />They're pretty bad reprints imo, they look like they were stuck in an oven.<br /><br />Here's a link for one that sold a little bit ago. Once again it is terribly aged and just doesn't look right.<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8751879280&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3APIC&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8751879280&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3APIC&rd=1</a>