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01-12-2006, 06:59 AM

Posted By: RobertI just recieved back from SGC about 60 cards that I was stunned on how low they graded. I thought for sure that this Matty port would get at least a 50 and maybe a 60. No creases or wrinkles, nice regiestration and centering. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8749362545&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8749362545&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1</a> I can't believe this is only 1 grade higher then the cards now being posted in the beater thread. It jiust makes no sense what so ever as to how they could grade the way they do. To me the difference now between a 6 and a 9 or 10 is so little but on the otherhand at the bottom of the spectrum that a card with creases, tears, punch holes and missing paper can get a 1 or 2 and a card like the one posted only gets a 2. Just my two cents on the injustice of the grading system we are now forced to use.

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01-12-2006, 07:15 AM

Posted By: warshawlawThe scans on ebay are too low res to make a real call on it. I have to wonder, though, as to why you'd sell it cheap in a 2 holder instead of cracking it out and resubmitting?

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01-12-2006, 07:18 AM

Posted By: RayBI'd be interested in buying that card. Email me at aja4rayb@msn.com RayB

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01-12-2006, 07:24 AM

Posted By: BrianYour card will not go cheap now that its posted on this board ...

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01-12-2006, 07:33 AM

Posted By: RobertMy intentions are not to bring attention to my auction but to mention my findings, I have never posted a pic on this site before and know how to post links that is why I did what I did. I understand why the 2 Cobbs are graded because they have small corner creases, and still feel thay should of graded higher despite. I think the cobbs should be 40's and the Matty a 50. Just the same I think that this will be the last time I ever use SGC for grading my cards. Besides when I do sell PSA brings in about a 20% higher price then SGC or GAI.

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01-12-2006, 07:39 AM

Posted By: Al Crisafulli"Just my two cents on the injustice of the grading system we are now forced to use" I guess there are a couple ways of looking at this. While it's always a drag to have a card come back with a grade you don't like, I'm also very pleased as a collector to know that I'm not going to buy a raw card that's been graded EX by a dealer, only to find out that it's got paper loss, or a crease or whatever. So I don't really consider it to be an injustice that I'm forced to use a grading system I don't like. I'm more apt to think of it as an industry standard that I have to adopt if I want to stay current with the hobby. Case in point - I recently saw a well-known, fairly reputable dealer of raw cards that had listed a 1930s HOFer on Ebay, describing the card as "EX". Looking at the scan, it was obvious that the card would not have graded better than a 2, perhaps even lower. But the dealer had the card listed with a price that would correspond with an "EX" card. That kind of thing used to hurt us as consumers 20 years ago. That card looks very nice, but I'm pretty sure that the grading companies aren't in the business of putting EX cards in G holders. Once in a while they make a mistake, but usually there's a reason why a card gets downgraded. -Al

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01-12-2006, 07:48 AM

Posted By: cmokingnote to self - be careful buying raw cards from bresdo.

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01-12-2006, 08:15 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Absent a larger scan, there is no way to tell whether the card is accurately graded. However, I can say that I am fairly certain there is no way it would get a 60. A 40 or 50 seems reasonable, however, I have found that even a spec of paperloss (which is not always obvious) can lower a cards grade to a 30 or 40. Add a small wrinkle that isnt apparent to the naked eye, and you've got yourself a 30. Its happened to all of us. That being said, please dont sell your card offline, I am also interested (as Im sure many now are) and it will sell for a decent price provided people buy the card and not the grade.

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01-12-2006, 08:16 AM

Posted By: BrianDoes GAI grade closer to your liking? Not trying to be sarcastic, just curious...

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01-12-2006, 08:16 AM

Posted By: anonymousdaveI just had grades posted from sgc on a little 10 card submission of lower conditioned pre-war stuff... 5 of the 10 cards were slabbed in a lower grade than what i expected...i am usually only off on 1 in 10 or so...and i have been submitting cards to sgc longer than the current graders have been grading cards. One borderline GD-VG card did recieve a VG ..so i guess i should be happy...or start listening to my own advice about slabbing cards. note to Scott and Bob: please re-read your written grading criteria every monday morning <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ...Sean if you read this pass it along... and Happy New Year.

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01-12-2006, 09:11 AM

Posted By: RobertHer is a larger pic that I just got hosted on one of the suggested companies. <img src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450009065/1.jpg">

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01-12-2006, 09:14 AM

Posted By: Robertcmoking, Just for your information when I post a raw card I do not assign a grade to it and tell the buyer that I provide a detailed scan and for them to judge for themselves. I would not want the liability of making a grade and have them send it in to be dissappointed by what it recieves. I only gaurantee it to be authentic and unaltered.

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01-12-2006, 09:34 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliIs it just the scan, or is that a crease that cuts directly across the card, right about at his nose? Is the fraying at the bottom-right corner and the black stain at the top center as pronounced in real life as it is in the scan? Sometimes scans have a way of overpronouncing these things. -Al

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01-12-2006, 09:34 AM

Posted By: James FeaginThere appears to be three surface wrinkles on edges. IMHO, this card looks like a prototypical 40. James

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01-12-2006, 09:49 AM

Posted By: Keith O'Learyheres the nicest looking 40 (front and back are super clean) ya'd ever wanna see. has very minor surface wrinkling that can't be seen easily. <IMG src="http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/421573170/148.jpg">

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01-12-2006, 10:14 AM

Posted By: leonIf that is wrinkling through the face (which I am pretty sure it is) then the 30 is warranted. Could it be a 40? Probably. But a 30 with those wrinkles is not out of line, imho. How would anyone here like to buy Robert's card without a scan, in a 50 holder, and have those wrinkles? I am not getting personal here and it's a great card...and we let this current auction thread go as it's for a good debate. Just giving the other view....best regards (fwiw I have several cards like this with low grades that are beautiful)

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01-12-2006, 10:18 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensOvergrade: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8744541282&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8744541282&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1</a> Undergrade: Card looks much nicer than the grade: <img src="http://attic2cash.net/T206Mattyblackcap.jpg"> Technical grades obviously are different than than presentation. It sure does look like a crease or surface wrinkle across nose, but even with that I think a VG is in order. Lee

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01-12-2006, 10:40 AM

Posted By: AnonymousRobert, You have what looks to be a crease or slight wrinkle through the middle of the card, tobacco staining on front, and corners that look like a 40. Your card looks to be fairly graded. You don't think I was in disbelief the day this baby came back from them? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/ap13/e102sgraded/websize/millerbat_e102.JPG"> I looked closer and saw a sliver of an indentation on the back. You can't even notice it. But it's a 40. I am still an SGC fan.

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01-12-2006, 10:54 AM

Posted By: cmokingBresdo - thanks for the clarification. That really does help. Apologies for jumping to conclusions.

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01-12-2006, 11:18 AM

Posted By: AnonymousRobert: do you have a scan of the back? Based on the grade, I would guess what looks like a wrinkle across the front actually shows through on the back. A crease, no matter how slight, is still a crease, and one that goes across the middle of the card will kill the grade. There's also the mark ("smudge") at the top and another wrinkle/crease that starts at the right side and moves toward the middle. Still, one heck of a nice 30/2 that should sell for much higher than other Matty portraits in the same assigned grade. The Dots Miller is interesting ... there is a light horizontal print line at the top, but there is also a small dot (which seems to be an almost vertical hash mark) at the top, near the middle of the horizontal line. Is that a mark or a print defect? There's an E102 Chase on eBay right now (in the stores/BIN) which is also graded SGC 40, and it has what appears to be the same dot/vertical hash at the top of the card. If it is a print defect, is that common on E102s?

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01-12-2006, 11:25 AM

Posted By: scott ingoldAnd possibly a small tic of paper missing on the bottom right ?

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01-12-2006, 11:39 AM

Posted By: andy beckerrobert, it seems to me that almost every post you start is about a recent acquisition that you will be selling, or something of the like. your complaint about grading is viewed by me as a sales pitch. you are not a collector, who is complaining about getting a bad grade. you are outing your ongoing ebay auctions. your actions are transparent....and your agenda is to use the power of this forum to boost your own ebay sales. there are many sellers that frequent this board. none choose to advertise their auctions on the main portion of the board. i think this thread should be deleted, even if it is 6 hrs too late <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> -andy becker

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01-12-2006, 11:45 AM

Posted By: scott ingoldI believe someone was trashed for the same thing not to long ago regarding a cobb.

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01-12-2006, 11:51 AM

Posted By: robWith the crease across the middle on the Mathewson makes it a 2. Light enough you could had hoped for a 3, but theres too much corner wear.

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01-12-2006, 11:52 AM

Posted By: JeffPost office was using the pony express

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01-12-2006, 11:58 AM

Posted By: Josh K.It looks like there is a fairly obvious wrinkle through the middle of the card - if so, did you really think that this card would get a 50 or 60? Despite their published standards, I have found that SGC will rarely grade a card with a wrinkle better than a 40.

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01-12-2006, 12:01 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Jeff, I think most will agree that SGC typically provides great customer service. I suggest that you call them instead of email them. You can usually get someone on the phone who can answer your questions.

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01-12-2006, 12:26 PM

Posted By: anonymousdavefrom the sgc web-site on the grading standards page: "40 VG 3: 90/10 or better centering, corners more rounded--but not excessive, stronger creasing may exist. Poorer focus, registration, and discoloration, and staining are more noticeable." nowhere does it state that a card in this grade can have only one of the mentioned flaws..at least that is my interpretation.... but it seems this has become the rule. Does "stronger creasing" mot mean the possibility of multiple wrinkles or creases? "30 GOOD 2: Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits one or more of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tear, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss." now a 30 can have a "heavy crease(s)" and a pinhole and it still isn't a 20?..."one or more" is not very definitive. 20 FAIR 1.5: Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits several of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, a small portion of the card may be missing. ..and if small a portion of my card is missing and it has a tear, a heavy crease and a pinhole..it won't be a 10? am I reading the criteria wrong? Shouldn't 2 wrinkles or a light crease and a wrinkle on a card qualify as stronger creasing...or is the length and location of any wrinkle or non-surface breaking crease the determining factor on it's "strength"? Not to bitch and moan about it..but it seems to me that the standards for 40/VG (and even 30/Good) have become more strict over the past few years...perhaps more than the written criteria.

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01-12-2006, 12:40 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI could not tell from the scan if there were wrinkles but it looks like there is a stain on the top border, four well rounded corners and a chip off the bottom right corner. On ebay it looked like some staining on the back too. Based on the front only, it is a a vg card. If there are back stains and/or wrinkles, g-vg is warranted.

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01-12-2006, 01:26 PM

Posted By: RobertAndy, I have been active on this site for over a year now and have never even once directed people towrds my listings on EBAY. THe only reason why I put the link was so people can view the card. After I signed up for ProPic and put the better scan. You post that I do this all the time you show me one thread that I started in the past year trying to promote my stuff. I am a collector first and sell off the cards that I choose not to keep anymore. You are a typical forum rat who has nothing nice to say about anything.

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01-12-2006, 01:31 PM

Posted By: quanall you guys who found reasons to mark this card down to a 30 would grade your raw cards the same way. at first glance to me it looks VG/EX, but if that light crease/wrinkle does show on the back, then i can see it being G+. On a good day it'll get in a 40 holder. Of course if certain people were to submit instead of robert i would think at least a 40 for sure.

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01-12-2006, 02:14 PM

Posted By: andy beckerrobert, first of all, i you wish to call me a "forum rat" that is your choice. so be it, pass the cheese. i honestly don't remember you starting any threads to discuss cards. what i do remember is you posting of questions about values of card that you had purchased and intend to sell. you purchased a t206 set from mastro with the intentions of breaking the set for profit. the set contained a carolina brights red portrait cobb. my problem is you are using the main body of this forum to advertise. you readily post and ask the value of the carolina brights cobb, and you go on to say that you bought it as part of a set you will be breaking up to sell. and now, you are doing it all over again. if you want to break a set, sell a card, whatever....use the bst, not the main portion of the board. those are the rules we all follow? what makes you so special that you don't have to follow the rules? inquiring rat(s) want to know.

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01-12-2006, 02:20 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisNot trying to be "One Up on Everyone" here, but check-out this one. I expected at least an Ex grade for this, my favorite T206 card. <img src="http://freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/wjohnsona.jpg">

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01-12-2006, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Al Crisafulli"Of course if certain people were to submit instead of robert i would think at least a 40 for sure." Please direct me to these people, as I'm preparing a large submission as we speak. -Al

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01-12-2006, 02:28 PM

Posted By: dennishave to agree 100% w/andy on this. if you are selling cards and asking opinions on the cards you are selling and providing links to your auction.....well all i'll say is it belongs in the buy/sell thread!

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01-12-2006, 04:08 PM

Posted By: WPI think very often cards that appear to be high grade get lowered substantially when they have glue or paste on the reverse.

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01-12-2006, 04:49 PM

Posted By: leonI would caution everyone to be careful of posting cards on the main forum that are currently, or about to be, for sale. That is what the BST threads are for...now pass the cheese....

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01-12-2006, 05:34 PM

Posted By: GenaroI buy raw cards and send them off to be graded. I rather have it a grade lower but verified to be authentic than not grading at all. I also prefer to grade so I can dispute any card that was advertised as authentic but not graded. ReGrade Tier Price (i.e. Grand Slam - $15) Based on tier price (i.e. 5 business days) If you disagree with a grade assigned by SGC, you may submit the card for review. Holder must be intact and show no evidence of tampering. Holders that show evidence of tampering are not covered under the SGC Guarantee This card has a slight stain and rounded corners I hoped for a but settled for 40 but hey at least its real can always breath better.

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01-12-2006, 06:04 PM

Posted By: Jim Not to be adversarial, but did SGC send henchmen to your door to steal your card and credit card number? If not, then no one forced you to be subjected to these grading standards. The standards are posted on the website. Collectors naturally see their own cards in a better light than other observers. Couldnt it be possible that you missed something that they saw? Wouldnt it be better to inquire the reasons from them rather than blasting them here? There are many other garbage grading companies out there that will be happy to give you the grade you want when you pay. If you are not satisfied, the herd of sheep at PSA always have additional room in the flock at the Orlando farm.