Cuban "Polar" Cards [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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09-06-2005, 09:12 PM

Posted By: PaulThere were several Cuban cards on ebay today that say "Polar" on the back. Here is one example. Do any of you know anything about these? <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5236894391&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5236894391&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&rd=1</a>

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09-06-2005, 11:24 PM

Posted By: Mark Tylicki...and would love to hear more about these too. Ryan - Could you provide us with more info? ------------------------------ MY COLLECTION: <a href="http://www.rustywilly.com/MYCOLLECTION.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.rustywilly.com/MYCOLLECTION.htm</a>

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09-07-2005, 05:51 AM

Posted By: RickI wonder if they are glossy?

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09-07-2005, 08:54 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffI will do a lengthy post with my opinion about these later in the day. They do not seem legit to me. I'll explain in detail later. -Ryan

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09-07-2005, 09:33 AM

Posted By: Marc S.Any chance that these could have originated from Venezuela, and not Cuba...?

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09-08-2005, 06:48 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffAs promised, here is my take on the “Polar” cards. But first, I want to be clear that this is only my opinion. I am still open to the possibility of this being a legitimate issue, however, I do not believe it is. I have not held one of these in my hands so I cannot be 100% certain either way. Also, I am in no way making any kind of statement about the ebay seller as I believe they genuinely believe these to be authentic cards. Additionally, the seller is only selling them for someone else. I know the seller personally and am hoping they do not get bombarded with e-mails about how they’re selling fake cards or about me saying anything negative about them. I’ve been in contact with the seller and heard the reason why they feel the cards are real. 've also said I think they are not. We simply disagree. Anyone who won one of the auctions should still honor their bid whether or not they have doubts about authenticity after reading this. With that said, here are a few of the reasons I don’t think they’re real: A. No one’s ever seen them before. This, by itself, means nothing. There are definitely still undiscovered issues that surface from time to time and there are some cards tucked away in collections that almost no one knows about. But when they do surface, they are generally cards issued by an unknown issuer, or a very small business. Not by one of the largest breweries of the era (in Cuba) who also produced many different baseball booklets, schedules, etc. “Polar” also advertised in all the baseball publications and even had signs inside the stadiums. They were huge. They SHOULD have issued baseball cards. If they had produced any cards, they would have produced a ton of them. It would probably have been the most common Cuban baseball card issue of the pre-Castro era. They wouldn’t trickle out one by one in 2005. B. The look is not right. They do not fit the era in which they are alleged to have been produced. The golden age of baseball card production in Cuba took place in the 1920’s. Primarily between 1923 and 1927. Most of the baseball cards produced during this time were photographic, that is, glossy cards printed on thin photographic paper. The “Polar” cards would have been much more believable if they were listed with a 1920’s issue date, instead of the 1950’s, and didn’t include later players like Monte Irvin. Nothing issued past 1930 is remotely similar to those. In fact, I can only think of two post-1930 issues (1946-47 Campo Alegre and 1949-50 Ansco) that were photographic, and one of those was produced by a photographic film company to advertise their rolls of film. The backs look to have been hand-stamped instead of printed on. Every fake Cuban card I have seen shares this trait. The excess scrapbook paper stuck to some of the cards is a nice touch to make them look even more legitimate. “How could they be fake, they’re not mint! They were even glued into an album like most other Cuban cards. They MUST be real!” C. Player selection. Now this makes no sense at all, especially when you factor in the team each one is pictured on. On ebay were 6 cards. I’ll go over each one: ~ Jimmy Foxx ~ Major Leagues: 1925-45. Nothing too unusual here. It would be easy enough to believe they would produce a set that contained cards of some of the all-time great Major Leaguers, similar to the 1946-47 Montiel set. ~ Monte Irvin ~ Negro Leagues: 1937-48. Cuban League: 1947-49. Major Leagues: 1949-56. Okay, this one is interesting. Irvin was a star in Cuba, and every other country he played in. Although he only played 2 seasons in Cuba (47-48 & 48-49) he led the league in home runs in one of them helping his Almendares team win the championship. There are MANY images of Irvin in Cuba. During the 1948-49 season there were pictures of him in nearly every sports magazine including several with him on the cover. This is BEFORE he ever played a single game in the Majors for the Giants. So why in the world is he pictured in a Giants uniform? They couldn’t find a single card of him playing in the country these cards are supposed to have been produced in? No way. But maybe they intended to market these cards in the United States, which would also explain adding Foxx and having other Americans in the set. No. This isn’t true either as can easily be seen by the players on the other cards. But the real giveaway about the Irvin is this: Of everything I have ever read or seen that was produced in Cuba during the late 1940’s that featured Monte Irvin or mentioned his name, I have never seen anything that didn’t spell his name “Irving” with a “g” on the end. Covers of magazines, captions of photos, listings in programs and rosters; always “Irving.” With one exception: his only Cuban baseball card (1948-49 El Indio) spells it “Yrving.” They never forgot the “g”. ~ Jacinto Calvo ~ Cuban League: 1913-27 Major Leagues: 1913, 1920 Had they only listed Cuban players and said the cards were from the 1920’s, these cards would have been much more plausible. A Cuban issue featuring some of the greats of the Cuban League. Makes sense. Calvo is in the Cuban HOF and was one of the first Cubans in the Majors shortly after Almeida and Marsans debuted in 1911. Yes, yes, Bellan and Nava, I know, I know. But on his “Polar” card, Calvo is pictured on the Washington Senators. They couldn’t find an image of him in Cuba? ~ Manuel Cueto ~ Cuban League: 1912-33 Major Leagues: 1914-19 Another Cuban HOFer. He’s pictured as a member of the Cincinnati Reds. ~ Emilio Palmero ~ Cuban League: 1913-29 Major Leagues: 1915-16, 1921, 1926, 1928 Another Cuban HOFer. Shown playing for the New York Giants. So we have 3 Cuban HOFers, but all are pictured with Major League teams. This seems unlikely that they would produce Cuban cards of Cuban players but only show them playing for Major League teams, but it’s still within the realm of possibility. But then how do we explain the last card: ~ Antonio Susine (Susini) ~ Cuban League: 1918-1920 Negro Leagues: 1921 Here is a player who never played in the Majors, had a cup of coffee in the Negro Leagues, and in his native country had a diamond career that consisted of pitching in 2 games in the 1918-19 season (going 0-1) and taking 8 at-bats in the 1919-20 season (career average .125) so it is only natural that he would have a baseball card produced in a set that so far contains only HOFers. Personally, I do not believe that picture is actually him, but I have no idea what he looks like. I do know that the Cuban Stars uniform he is wearing is similar to those worn in the late 1920’s and early 1930’s. What, exactly, would be the reason to make a card of a Cuban player but on an American Negro League team? But here's the best part: As bad as Antonio Susini was as a player, he still managed to leave his mark on the game. During an non-league game in January of 1922 he got into a fight with a teammate, Julio Leblanc. Although Susini couldn’t seem to hit a baseball with a bat, he did manage to hit Leblanc’s head with one, fracturing his skull and killing him. He was arrested immediately and served 13 years in prison. Yes, I’m sure the company who made “Polar” beer felt that their logo on a picture of a hack baseball player and convicted murderer would be an ideal way to advertise their product. “If the skull gets hit, the card must be legit.” Or maybe…. these images were all ones that were available and easy to reproduce with decent picture quality, as opposed to using an image of Irvin from a magazine, for example. The size of the actual photo was likely an issue as well. Remember, these “cards” are photos of photos. The clearer the original, the clearer the “card.” I believe I know exactly how these were made, although I’d rather not go into too much detail or give anyone any ideas. Something worth noting is the way they cut out long rectangular strips of paper and wrote each player’s name on it. Then they laid that on top of the photo, on top of a black background, laid a cut-out “Polar” logo on top of that, and were well on their way. That part they could have done better. Please keep in mind that all of this is merely speculation on my part and everything I’ve written is only my opinion. It is also my opinion that this group on ebay was only meant to introduce us to this new and rare issue. Look for more cards to surface, probably always in small groups. After we’ve seen 3 or 4 groups of different players, enough to have us convinced that it’s probably a real issue, then look for the big guns. If there’s a Jimmy Foxx, there must be a Babe Ruth, right? If there’s a Manuel Cueto, there must be a Martin Dihigo, right? If there’s an Antonio Susini, there must be an O.J. Simpson, right? If there’s a Monte Irvin, how about a Cool Papa Bell or Buck Leonard? When cards of the top level Negro Leaguers surface, especially HOFers who have no other cards like Bell or Leonard, this is where the big dollars come in and it starts to make sense why someone would go to all that trouble. Also, look for more Cuban Stars players because there are a number of players that have individual photos of them wearing the same uniform that I have seen. The images would have been perfect for cards. Unfortunately, no cards like this exist. -Ryan

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09-08-2005, 06:56 AM

Posted By: leonAre you related to Hal? Nice job of making a case....I have no clue about this issue but I love reading well thought out arguments on the board. Yours is excellent......regards

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09-08-2005, 08:24 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI agree. Nice points, Ryan!!

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09-08-2005, 08:42 AM

Posted By: AlanRyan -- Thank you for that fantastic explanation !!! I wish I had the knowledge with my interests as you do with yours. Alan

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09-08-2005, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Paul“If the skull gets hit, the card must be legit.” I love it.

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09-09-2005, 04:57 PM

Posted By: J LevineMore showed up on ebay this afternoon...they honestly do not look legit to me because of the add on the front...it is all different sizes and places on the cards. Just does not look correct. Joshua

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09-09-2005, 06:01 PM

Posted By: rickGood write up. thanks a lot

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09-10-2005, 03:42 AM

Posted By: tobacco-r-usAdolfo Luque would have liked to have tossed you up in the air, and caught you. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (inside joke between Ryan and I)

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09-10-2005, 06:57 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldWell done, Ryan!!! THAT is why it is worthwhile to check out this site. I only have one old Cuban card, don't know much about them. But now, don't we all know a bit more! Thank you!!!! Frank.

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09-14-2005, 05:24 PM

Posted By: RC MckenzieMaybe it was some sort of test issue that never entered the market. Seems like an awful lot of trouble, with no insurance of reward, to hatch a plan to deceive a relatively small niche market. I do agree that if a Cool Papa Bell trickles out at the end of the month, I'd be more suspicious. I'll probably bid on one in this current group just to see what they look like. GL

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09-14-2005, 08:13 PM

Posted By: scgaynor"Seems like an awful lot of trouble, with no insurance of reward, to hatch a plan to deceive a relatively small niche market." It would not be the first time it has happened with Cuban cards. There are a ton of fake ones out there, but to the best of my knowledge, they pretty much all come from the same source. Scott

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09-15-2005, 09:39 AM

Posted By: sagardI know not everybody likes grading here and that the companies make mistakes, but this is the perfect reason for their existance. If those cards are real the seller should be able to convince either PSA/SGC/GAI of that fact and at that point I don't think they would be struggling to sell them at all.

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09-15-2005, 01:57 PM

Posted By: William BrumbachDoesn't anyone else find it a bit odd that the seller doesn't list the player names in the auction titles? They have player names in their other auctions as well as the actors and actresses on the photographs. If you had a Jimmie Foxx card to sell wouldn't you at least put his name in the auction title along with HOF or something like that?

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09-30-2005, 08:25 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisPerhaps to keep them out of view from the experts? I'll be glad when Mike solves this riddle.

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09-30-2005, 08:38 AM

Posted By: Michael CampbellSee my earlier posting. As earlier stated, I am not divulging any received info until it can be combined into a solid opinion. But let me put it this way, if the people I have asked, can't determine authenticity or not, PSA,Global Etc. sure won't. We then would have an unsolved mystery on our hands. And if the determination turns out to be "sort of" "or maybe" or "We think" or "it looks like", thats not good enough for me. I would then consider them to be suspect. Again, it's the detective work I enjoy, not the outcome. Sort of when you are on the nationwide search for that "one" card you want so badly.

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09-30-2005, 08:40 AM

Posted By: dennissagard i agree with you on grading company's authenticating these,but this is the type of stuff they probably won't touch.

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09-30-2005, 02:24 PM

Posted By: sagardWhoever originally "found" these cards had reason to believe they are legitimate I would expected them showing up here for advice on how to prove it. After providing proof of these cards legitimacy to a reputable grading company, that is when serious money could have been made. Especially after after "finding" the bigger stars. Flipping ultra rare potentially unique cards on Ebay doesn't make sense if you truly believe in them.

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09-30-2005, 02:48 PM

Posted By: RC McKenzieCards can be 'too rare'. If a card is so rare that no one knows what it is, then it has no market. Ebay is as good a place as any to sell baseball cards, just look at that Josh Gibson price on there as an example. As far as needing a grading company's blessing to place value on a card, I don't think the companies will grade any newly discovered or uncatalogued cards.

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09-30-2005, 03:16 PM

Posted By: warshawlawThere are 2 categories: (1) cards newly discovered from already-catalogued sets and (2) newly discovered or uncatalogued sets. The former often requires only a call or email to the grading staff at SGC for them to look out for it and consider it. That was my experience with some uncatalogued Pinkerton scorecards that SGC graded for me. The latter requires more intervention. I had SGC slab a rare Japanese O'Doul card for me at the National. I picked it up from Gary Engel, who wrote the book, literally, on Japanese cards, and they wanted to talk to him about it to verify what it was before slabbing it.

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09-30-2005, 03:29 PM

Posted By: Mike campbellI am doing this investigation because I am curious. If they should prove to be frauds, so be it. It they prove to be legit, then let the market or the Grading services do what they like. At least I will know. Being a collector, that is all I need. The previous writer, is correct, a card can be too rare. Oddly enough, this can, and often does cause the market value to be minimal, because either the masses don't know about them, or people don't bother to look for them, because they feel it will be impossible to find one, let alone put a set together that so many choose to pursue. I am not a set builder. My interests center around specific players, teams, and time periods. The eventual value is unimportant to me at this time. I have had conversations today with experts in Kansas, and Ct., and Minnesota. It's interesting to hear them get excited, after I explain to them what it is I am pursuing. I eventually ended up speaking to a gentleman, who I discovered is called the grandfather of modern forensics surrounding paper dating, and photo dating. I am meeting with a forensics person mid next week. I recently came to learn of this forum. I am not a dealer. Just a collector. I have been collecting for many years. Mostly high graded material. Just a quite lover of memorablia. One of the "nations" most respected and honest dealers, and I have been friends for 12 or 13 years. Many of my finds have come through him. So, I guess I have come out of the closet. Hopefully I can contribute some small bits of info to others who are in need.

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09-30-2005, 06:19 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackFor unique/unusual/esoteric items, it's not difficult to determine if it's vintage or not, but it can be difficult to determine what it is. I think for grading companies, they are often concerned with the latter rather than the former when they search for outside opinion. This is as they are the ones putting a label above the card that will be scrutinized by many.

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10-04-2005, 12:12 PM

Posted By: Mike CampbellMet with the third paper conservator/forensics person today. She is sending me her findings in writing. Paper dating, printing methods, etc. etc. I told her it did not matter to me one way or the other what her findings were. It has been interesting though, looking at this thing through all these high powered machines. It will be 6 weeks or so before I will forward on my findings to Bob Lemke. He then can make the decision as to what the findings may be.

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12-15-2005, 09:17 AM

Posted By: ramramHey Mike - Did you ever get comfortable with an answer one way or another?

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12-16-2005, 07:06 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellProbably manufactured in the late 50's or 1960. Sometime in this era. Not pre war, but still an interesting set. I am told that the probability of this time line would be about 75% to 80%. I guess we will never know for certain, but this appears to be the most likely. This passed on to me by three different forensic experts. One of which gave me an opinion in writing, the other two from the forensics dept. at the state historical society were leary of putting it in writing, as they did not want the historical society to be liable, if their conclusions were inaccurate.

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12-16-2005, 08:20 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffShocking.

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12-16-2005, 08:36 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisThe sarcasm from the post above is dripping down on to me!!

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12-16-2005, 09:40 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellThanks Hall. I appreciate the support. It was fun. I got to meet some folks who deal in an area of research, that I had never dealt with before. Seeing how the labs work, and all the high tech gear, was interesting. the conclusion was not necessarily a surprise. I am not shocked. But it was interesting none the less. I had originally planned on taking it a bit further, but I had received two negative e mails from several forum members, I decided why spend any more time and money, when their opinionss had already been made. And nothing was going to change their minds. Thanks to Ryan for the intelligent and well thought out retort. It added a lot to the thread. Thanks again Ryan. I appreciate it.

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12-16-2005, 09:46 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffAny time, Mike. You might want to add that I was not one of those who sent you a negative e-mail, nor have I ever e-mailed you at all. I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but the above post almost seems to imply that I had. -Ryan

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12-16-2005, 09:47 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisDon't let it get to you, Mike... I think you could donate your entire net worth to a truckload of starving orphans and your kidney to a dying stranger and you would get at least two e-mails from board members attacking you for something. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-16-2005, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellIt wasn't you Ryan. I know who it was. Everyone on the forum knows them. I have collected cards and memorablia my whole life, and pre war, for the last 15. I was always under the impression that this hobby was supposed to be fun. And it is. It amazes me why anyone would take the time, or go through the effort of attacking someone for just being interested in dating a baseball card. One individual told me to stop wasting my time. Another actually questioned my knowledge of the hobby. Funny, since that individual and I have never met. Lastly, a person questioned my intelligence. I know this a tiny minority of folks in the hobby. Otherwise, I wouldn't be involved in it. I love pre war items, and will always be a collector. There is something about an old card, that I can't explain. I love 'em. who knows why. I'm hooked.

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12-16-2005, 10:51 AM

Posted By: leonI think it was you and I that emailed long ago and I might have prodded you to come to our happy forum. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I don't think Ryan was taking a personal stab at you. I know him (hi Ryan) personally and I think all he meant was something like "I told you so, the whole time". I appreciate your in depth research and something tells me it was a lot of fun doing it. It certainly sounds like it was. As far as getting private emails about negativity on your dating of cards.....I have dated a lot worse <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Thanks again for the follow up ......regards

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12-16-2005, 01:25 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzThe Ebay auction says the card was from the 50's. Mike's experts say 50's or 1960. Ryan says it's not a legitimate issue at all, and Hal and Leon believe Ryan is now trying to say I told you so. What is the conclusion here--that they are illegitimate cards from the 50's or 60's?

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12-16-2005, 03:20 PM

Posted By: Mike CampbellThe forensic experts I visited with, told me that they were more than likely manufactured anywhere from 1957 to 1960. All three agreed that the printing on the back, was absolutley "not" stamped, but rather was printed during the manufacturing process. This they all agreed on. A fourth paper expert agreed completely. Not all these experts were at the same location. I have some documentation from one of the four. Whether all this means they are legit or not, I guess depends on how one defines legit. One person mentioned to me that, if these were "fake", what ever that means, "someone sure went to a lot of trouble to make them up". And costly as well. To clarify a bit, I was told the late 50's, up to about 1960. Not into the 60's, but rather up to 1960. Not beyond 1960.

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12-16-2005, 04:14 PM

Posted By: fkwWhats the difference between 1957 and 1961 as far as paper and printing styles? I cant see how someone can narrow it down to a 3 year gap that these were mostlikely made. I would like to see more on the history........ who 1st brought them back from Cuba?? How many examples were in the original "find"?? And Where is the Album these came from? 90+% of all Cuban cards are first discovered (found) pasted into albums. Some of these had album residue on the back. Im sure no one who thought these had any value would throw away the album these were taken out of. My gut feeling is they are very recent and home made. None of the Cuban experts have ever seen even a single example. Im sure at least a single example would have surfaced in the hobby sometime in the last 50 years. Frank

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12-16-2005, 04:47 PM

Posted By: James FeaginMike, I'm in total agreement with what you said in your preceding post. Why anyone would want to waste a few moments of their lives bashing you on your opinion or hobby cred. is beyond me. You are better than me, because I would have posted their negative e-mails for all to see. Every segment of baseball card collecting, or any hobby for that matter, have these types. Whether your Polar cards are legit or not, I think it satisfied a curiousity, and I trust you are happy with the answer. This is not meant to be an all-consuming money-grubbing obsession, it is a hobby, and I commend Mike for the way he has handled this thread. James (The vintage collector who dares to collect gasp modern)

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12-16-2005, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffHas anyone considered the possibility that these were indeed printed on authentic, old stock paper? I'm saying, and have thought from the beginning, that these were made recently, not 1957 or 1960, but recently, ON OLD PAPER. Is someone now saying that because Mike's experts date the paper to be from 1957 to 1960 that these are legit cards? I don't think that's was Mike is saying. He's just reporting to us the findings of his research. Since my September post I have held one of these cards in my hands and agree that the text on the back was printed, not stamped on. I do still believe that this is not a real issue and was not produced by Polar. I also find it interesting, Mike, that in all your research you never noticed anything similar about every one of the photographs used. Is there anything you found out in your research about the images, themselves? How about this: Every one of the photos used is a George Burke photo. All of them. Someone on this board must collect George Burke photos and be an expert in all things George Burke. If not, with all the lawyers on this board it would be easy enough for someone to find out who has the rights to the photos and contact them to see if they ever gave permission to Polar to use their images on baseball cards. Certainly a company as large as Polar (which still exists, by the way) would not have stolen the images and produced cards without legal consent. Anyone looking to convince themselves that these are legit cards, just contact the Burke estate and Polar Brewery and show us the documentation you find. I'll be shocked and amazed, but I'm perfectly willing to eat crow and publicly declare I was wrong if I was wrong. -Ryan

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12-17-2005, 04:20 AM

Posted By: RC McKenzieI'm not following. If the paper is dated by folks/experts that have no interest in baseball cards as late 50's , then either the cards are from the late 50's or an evil doer wants us to think that they are from the late 50's. Why would not this 'evil doer' find paper that dates to the 30's and print it on that. The fact that all the photos can be traced to the same photographer indicates to me that the series of cards is of innocent origin. I don't own any of these cards and have no interest other than that I stand by what I originally thought based on Mike's findings. They are a neat obscure, 50's set of baseball cards.

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12-17-2005, 06:16 AM

Posted By: leonI too am not that interested in the cards themselves but the debate is intriguing. I think you make a good point, Ryan. Unless someone saw these being printed in the years of '57'ish-'60 then how can any forensic expert or any "person" for that matter say impertively that they were actually made in those years. There is not doubt there is old paper around today and there is no doubt there are machines to produce cards today, that date from the '50's. Why couldn't old paper be printed on today? I still like all of the work Mike has done (though I think it was another Mike I emailed with to come onto the board a while back) and he should still be very satisified knowing the facts he found out. It sounds like the journey was, a lot, or most of the fun....best regards

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12-17-2005, 07:05 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellOnce again, I have nothing at stake here. As I stated earlier, I was told there was a 75% to 80% chance that combined elements of the printing style, the paper, and the photograhic process, all together "pointed" towards the late 50's. Nothing is certain, heck there are still debates going on today, about the origination dates of some late 19th century and early 20th century cards. So, I guess we may never know. But the goal was fun none the less. It's only a baseball card. can't we just all get along? Now, if only PSA would get my cards back to me that they have had for a few weeks..... Now that is more urgent.

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12-17-2005, 07:26 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisMike: I'm sure you can understand why the "delicate balance" of this hobby could be totally skewed by these Polar cards (and any other such "finds")... as there are certain legendary Hall of Famers (Cool Papa Bell and Buck Leonard) who currently don't have ANY baseball cards. The IMPORTANCE of your Polar cards is NOT about the Monte Irvin card from 1959 that was on EBay... it is about the POSSIBILITY of a Buck Leonard card or a Cool Papa Bell card showing up for the first time ever. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> This is why we are so suspicious about the Polar cards... because the ones that were sold on EBay are the PERFECT "set up" for this type of scam. They included one former HOF (Foxx), one current player (Irvin), and then a bunch of VERY OLD players from the Carribean. In other words, if Bell and Leonard show up now... they will fit in perfectly with the apparent "make up" of the set. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> If ZERO cards from this set ever appear again... then nobody will give much thought to this and will probably not bother to dispute the 1959 origin of the set. BUT... it is the entire CREDIBILITY and INEGRITY of the hobby that is at stake if a Cool Papa Bell Polar card suddenly emerges... and none of us could just sit by and let that happen without a fight. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-17-2005, 08:33 AM

Posted By: mike campbellI fully understand. I couldn't agree more. You'll get no arguement out of me. All I did was make an attempt at dating them. I actually did come across more people who can date glue, (on the backs) and other such oddities. But then again, that would also just meet with more areas with which we could all dispute. I spent my own time and money. I am not complaining, as it was something I chose to do. No different than if I came across some odd ball Ruth in an antique store. I am fully aware of the ramifications of this issue. I hesitate to even say this because I feel it shouldn't be necessary, but if anyone doubts my efforts or honesty, one of the nations most respected and long time dealers (20 years, or more, whom we all know) and I have been long time friends. Obviously I will not reveal his name. But I digress. I guess we can all draw our own conclusions.

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12-17-2005, 12:04 PM

Posted By: warshawlawJust because the photos are all Burke photos does not mean that they were legitimately licensed Burke photos.

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12-18-2005, 02:48 PM

Posted By: MichaelLet's wait for an important notice about the POLAR CARDS

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12-19-2005, 07:33 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellRegardless of the outcome, it has been interesting. If they do turn out to be "fakes" the story would then become, Who would go to all this trouble, and what was the process that this individual went through? That would be more interesting than the cards themselves. It is amazing what lengths people go through to make a buck. I can't wait to hear the news. I don't care either way.

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12-19-2005, 08:51 AM

Posted By: ChadMike, I appreciate all the work you've done on these cards. I would love to find out that they're real. If they're originating from Cuba, then that probably does a lot to explain why someone would go to a lot of trouble, tho. I've travelled there and I can tell you, a few dollars goes a long way. Couple that with the impossibility of ever prosecuting or seeking redress because of the political difficulties and you can start to see the motivation of a potential forger. Which isn't to say that they are forgeries, only that the money involved isn't insignificant to the forger and there's no risk of jail time or a civil suit. In my dreams, they're real and I pick up a Buck Leonard and Cool Papa Bell for a 20 dollar BIN. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> --Chad

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12-19-2005, 01:45 PM

Posted By: Mike campbellChad: I am in full agreement, that caution must be had. The e bay seller had sent me a list of all players within this set, and Buck Leanard, and Cool Papa Bell were not on the list. It is not as if a newly discovered set of 19th Century cards were found, but it is still important never the less. I recently sent an e mail to the ebay seller, asking for some info, and I have not heard back. This bothers be a bit, as firstly, it is common courtesy, and secondly, if no responds materializes, that speaks volumes as well. Regardless of the outcome, I had fun doing the detective work. Trust me, I understand all the skeptical folks out there. We shall see.

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12-19-2005, 06:04 PM

Posted By: MichaelI'm a Cuban fan of the Cuban Baseball history and a friend of the owner of the Polar cards. I have been following this debate about the Polar cards in this forum since it first started and paying close attention. Since my friend (the owner) is in Cuba he hasn’t been able to be an active participant in the debate which we can call: Ryan vs. The Owner. Of course I’m on the Owner’s side. Until today this hasn’t been a fair fight since there has only been one side of the story (the lion), the other side (the gladiator with tied hands) has remained dormant in Cuba. It was only ‘till this week that my friend was able to go over this story, read the conclusions reached by the forensics experts and the different opinions that were given and therefore he decided that it is the appropriate time to come into the game and to provide the answers which are "the facts and nothing but the facts". So, he finally found the way of sending me a message asking me the favor of transmitting it to the forum. For reasons more than obvious and understandable I am not revealing his name. For a better understanding I will refer to him as Mr. O. Please forgive my English, I will try my best. As you will notice, most of the details Mr. O. is going to give today will not help him in the future commercialization of the cards but are necessary due to the course this matter has taken. There are two main facts that Mr. O. wants to make clear: 1- He is absolutely sure about the authenticity of the cards. 2- He is not in a hurry for selling the cards. Let's explain each: 1- THE AUTHENTICITY: Apart from everything that has been said in the forum, in favor or against, from the very moment Mr O. acquired the cards until now, he has remained absolutely certain of their authenticity because of the following facts: a) He obtained the cards in a small town of a Cuban province directly from a poor man, relative of a representative of the Polar Cia. in Cuba in the late 50's. The cards were only a part from a bigger lot of Polar memorabilia which included posters, photos, labels and so forth. b) He paid there a ridiculous amount of money, ten times less than what he had to pay to the intermediary who took him directly to his source. c) The original owner knows nothing about baseball or has the slightest idea of the real value of the cards. d) The history behind this cards is that it was only a proof that was prepared in the late 50's by an independent person but it is not known if its original goal was not accomplished either due to the political change in Cuba or because of the imperfection of the work which was probably not accepted by the Polar directives or simply because of the poor functional usage of the proposed cards as such. e) It is a big lot containing more than hundred different players ( 230% Cubans) and the rest repeated but no more than twice, (that is there are no more than two cards of the same player). And anyway not all of the players are repeated. The fact of the great effort which would have taken to prepare this set of more than 100 different players was more than a strong reason to convince Mr. O that he was not dealing with any kind of modern fake. In any case a modern fake would have consisted of a much more less amount of players. f) This Polar set was not an edition as the common ones issued in Cuba which recreated the players of a certain championship or game (Cabañas, Punch, Billiken, Aguilitas, etc.) sometimes making even an special session of photos for the occasion and using inedited negatives for the work. In this edition the person who prepared it used every player whose image he could obtain from photos, publications, etc.( many card’s images are photos from photos … it could explain the poor quality of many of them and its darkness sometimes) and without taking into consideration whether the player was active or was retired, whether Cuban or American, famous or unknown. Maybe all of this was the reasons why the offer was not accepted by the directives of the company. g) It can not be assured if the idea of the creator of the set was the completion of a future Polar Album or just to use the cards as advertisements. What it is certain is the fact that the idea was not further developed. 2- THE SELLING: Since Mr. O. bought the whole lot of cards in existence he was not afraid of the competence and therefore not in a hurry for selling it. So he thought he could try first in EBay by giving some cards to a friend (a renowned dealer, Kubaneo). As everyone can understand each one of us is free to use whatever strategy we decide in order to sell our articles and he just decided to use that, starting with the less important cards and leaving the most valuables ready for a future deal as a unique lot. But he was making a huge mistake…..he never foresaw what a rage would be unleashed and what would happen: the furious reaction and accusatory response of Mr. Ryan…. Let's make this clear: Some historical facts: When the cards first appeared on EBay, Mr. Ryan, almost immediately without having the time to study them deeply, on July 8, prepared a long essay by means of which he showed off his knowledge on Cuban cards (it is obvious, he lives on that) and provided infinite logical and illogical reasons to demonstrate this "fake". Not satisfied with this he went into the trouble of writing to each of those who had obtained some of the cards to prevent them from this so called "swindle" Now,….Which are the roots of such rage?: Mr. Ryan is a dealer mainly on Cuban baseball cards who is used to visiting Cuba, place where he has acquired different lots of cards at ridiculous prices that he has commercialized successfully later . From the hands of the current owner of the Polar cards, Mr. Ryan has obtained many bargains: Complete lots of Billikens, Aguilitas, Campo Alegre, Gener, Tomas Gutierrez, etc., with some cards that are unique nowadays… to confirm it, we are going to show some examples in the following address: <img src="http://images.andale.com/f2/124/121/14274572/1137139876972_image_01.jpg"> When Mr. Ryan saw the Polar cards in EBay, which indicated that in this occasion the chance was flying away (this time he couldn't buy that lot directly) he angered..and the continuous attack started. Another fact that is important to state: His prophetic statements of those cards which will come later; and we quote: " It is also my opinion that this group on ebay was only meant to introduce us to this new and rare issue. Look for more cards to surface, probably always in small groups. After we’ve seen 3 or 4 groups of different players, enough to have us convinced that it’s probably a real issue, then look for the big guns. If there’s a Jimmy Foxx, there must be a Babe Ruth, right? If there’s a Manuel Cueto, there must be a Martin Dihigo, right? If there’s an Antonio Susini, there must be an O.J. Simpson, right? If there’s a Monte Irvin, how about a Cool Papa Bell or Buck Leonard? When cards of the top level Negro Leaguers surface, especially HOFers who have no other cards like Bell or Leonard, this is where the big dollars come in and it starts to make sense why someone would go to all that trouble. Also, look for more Cuban Stars players because there are a number of players that have individual photos of them wearing the same uniform that I have seen. The images would have been perfect for cards. Unfortunately, no cards like this exist. " At the time the Prophet Ryan wrote it, he had been previously in contact with a lot of Cuban people( he knows a lot of people in Cuba, collectors and dealers) people which had already seen the whole Polar lot and passed on to him all the names and info he was prophesying. In Cuba this lot was not kept as a mystery, many people had seen it and given their opinions. Something certain is that when the cards were set on EBay the rest of the lot was not mentioned, the names and so forth, but again it is a matter of choice how a product is sold. Final Comments: -. Unfortunately we can not answer daily to each argument that comes up due to the lack of access Mr. O. has to Web.. - All of the arguments about the errors in the cards, the photos that were used, the players that appear on them, etc. will not be refuted one by one. We just want to add that in the Cuba of the 50's, big league players were as known and followed there as in USA, besides it is not strange the great presence of black stars because sometimes they were better known in Cuba than in the US as such. And those errors in the cards were common at that time, even in more prepared editions and more serious ones than this proposed to the Polar which was definitely nothing more than a proof or an individual proposal, probably done by a photographer or a street businessman rather than by an expert of the baseball history like Mr. Ryan. - That argument so magnificently proposed by Mr. Ryan that never before had anyone heard of Polar cards is not to be taken into account in a country where from time to time the most amazing and unsuspected articles appear in garages, and even this same Ryan was not so cautious when a few years ago acquired from Mr. O. such valuable cards like those Matanzas ‘ Billikens or Campo Alegre set that were unknown until that very moment. - The recent results of the Mr. Campbell research confirm that the impression was made in the late 50’s … so if this is true …. … In what way could this issue be a fake? - The Owner tactic was certainly to begin with the less important, as a hook - even good writers or good publicists use this resource - but if in the future he decides to auction the important ones - like Dihigo, Page or Charleston - please have the certainty that there will only be one maybe two opportunities to obtain them. The decision will fall on your hands. Last but not least, thanks to Mr. Campbell for his interest and the time he invested in this matter (for the record, we are not acquainted at all).He can be positive that we will not let him down.

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12-19-2005, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisCan we please get a list of the 10 biggest names left in the set that may eventually be offered for sale? Thanks!

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12-19-2005, 07:01 PM

Posted By: fkwThanks for the new info./story My questions.... <<<<<d) The history behind this cards is that it was only a proof that was prepared in the late 50's by an independent person but it is not known if its original goal was not accomplished either due to the political change in Cuba or because of the imperfection of the work which was probably not accepted by the Polar directives or simply because of the poor functional usage of the proposed cards as such.>>>>> How do you know this above info???? So the cards are "proofs" and were never issued?? In some peoples minds, that would makes them a prototype card/set and not a true baseball card issued with a product or service. Why do some have glue/scrapbook residue on back if they are all from the same "poor old man" find? Were they discovered loose or pasted in an album??? The mystery owner Mr.O doesnt help much..... it actually makes it more fishy in some ways. If I was the owner/discoverer I certainly would not hide in that manner. <<<<In this edition the person who prepared it used every player whose image he could obtain from photos, publications, etc.( many card’s images are photos from photos … it could explain the poor quality of many of them and its darkness sometimes) and without taking into consideration whether the player was active or was retired, whether Cuban or American, famous or unknown. Maybe all of this was the reasons why the offer was not accepted by the directives of the company.>>>> How do you know this info?? Or is this what you think happened?? Oh well its all very interesting. I only am a Cuban card type collector and the Polar cards are interesting but still fishy to me. Over 50 years before a single example surfaces??? I cant get over that one. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank

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12-19-2005, 07:20 PM

Posted By: Ryan Christoff"Michael", A few quick things: 1. My name is Ryan Christoff. What is yours? Please post it so we know who we're talking to. It's probably not Michael, but if it is, what's your last name? Thanks. 2. Please do not edit your above post as I have saved the entire thing in its unedited form. Upon re-reading it, you will probably want to change much of it, but I will glady post what you originally wrote if you wind up editing it. 3. I sent an e-mail to Luis (Mr. O) just to verify that these are actually his comments. I haven't had any communication with Luis for about 2 years and was surprised to read that he thought I might have any negative feelings toward him. I'm going to give him an hour or so to respond to my e-mail just to verify that these are actually his comments and not yours, whoever you are. In any case, expect a VERY detailed post about the many hilarious falsehoods and outright lies in your post about these fake cards and my previous dealings with Luis. Of course, I realize there is a pretty good chance that you are, in fact, the mysterious Mr. O himself. -Ryan

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12-20-2005, 12:32 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffWell, not surprisingly, I haven’t heard from Luis (Mr. O) denying that "Michael" is indeed posting for him, so for this post I will assume that to be true. I won’t post his full name, either, but his 1st name is Luis. I realize that the code name "Michael" is using for Luis is "Mr. O" as in the letter "O", but I will refer to him using the number "0" or "El Cero" as he will now be known. I’m not really sure where to begin with all of this, but I suppose I’ll just respond to the many points "Michael" is claiming as true. I’ll try to be clear about when I am quoting and when I am responding. I wish I knew how to make certain sentences bold or in italics, but I don’t. Here goes: 1. MICHAEL: "…the debate which we can call: Ryan vs. The Owner." 1A. RESPONSE: A more appropriate title would be "Ryan vs. All The Damn Fake Cuban Baseball Cards Out There And The Scumbags Who Make Them." Until your post, I had nothing against the owner, El Cero. I certainly have nothing against Marcos, the seller (kubaneo). Does "The Owner" you refer to fall into the category of "Scumbags Who Make Fake Cuban Baseball Cards?"” If so, your title is accurate. If not, let’s not try to make this personal. You obviously think I’ve been harboring some grudge against Luis, but that simply isn’t true. I mean, NOW it might be true. But before tonight? No. ---- 2. I love that you refer to me as "Mr. Ryan" and "the Lion" and "the Prophet". So formal and dramatic. Feel free to call me "Ryan" from here on out, though. Or "Mr. Christoff" if you need to be formal. If you’re really nice, I’ll let you call me "King Ryan, the Lion Prophet". Now, who are YOU again? ---- 3. MICHAEL: "It was only ‘till this week that my friend was able to go over this story…So, he finally found the way of sending me a message asking me the favor of transmitting it to the forum." 3A. RESPONSE: Yes, poor Luis. Now you see why he is called "El Cero." All alone in a little shack made of yucca leaves, no access to running water or electricity, let alone the internet. What way did he "finally find" to send you a message? A curled note in an empty Hatuey bottle? No wait, that's right, Luis is one of the wealthiest people in Cuba, with several houses and a computer in his office which he uses to surf the internet and track eBay auctions every day. In fact, I have sat next to him and searched closed ebay auctions for Cuban baseball items in that very office. So I'm guessing e-mail was the way he finally found to contact you. The same way he initially contacted me. Save the sob story of the poor Cuban peasant who spent his life savings on these Polar cards because that's how much faith he had in their legitimacy. If you know Luis, you know he is a shrewd businessman. ---- 4. MICHAEL: "As you will notice, most of the details Mr. O. is going to give today will not help him in the future commercialization of the cards but are necessary due to the course this matter has taken. There are two main facts that Mr. O. wants to make clear: 1- He is absolutely sure about the authenticity of the cards. 2- He is not in a hurry for selling the cards." 4A. RESPONSE: Yes, I'm sure money is not even a consideration and you are only posting here for the good of the hobby, in order to set us straight on this great undiscovered issue. I'm sure that's true, in spite of the following quote near the end of your post: 4B. MICHAEL: "...if in the future he decides to auction the important ones - like Dihigo, Page or Charleston - please have the certainty that there will only be one maybe two opportunities to obtain them. The decision will fall on your hands." ---- 5. Regarding your statements on authenticity, the story about them being proofs bought from a poor relative of a Polar employee in the 50's was told to me by Marcos when I first e-mailed him about the cards asking for more information. This was when they were first listed and well before any post on this forum had been made about them. I e-mailed him back that after seeing the scans on ebay and reading the story, I believed they were most likely fakes produced recently. None of this had anything do with "El Cero". ---- 6. I'd love to know what "the poor functional usage of the proposed cards as such" means if you have some time. Does it have anything to do with the fact that 230% of the cards are Cubans? I can see how that would make for poor functional usage. The 1926-27 Aguilitas set is 100% Cuban players, and I thought THAT was a lot. Or was it poor functional usage to make more than 100 different cards plus some duplicates (but no more than two of the same player) as proofs? That sounds like poor functional usage of a proofing system. Luckily for El Cero, and any wealthy collector of Cuban cards (or perhaps those who want a card of every HOFer), I'm sure there were duplicates of, oh, I don't know, maybe Dihigo, Bell, Charleston, Paige, Leonard, etc. ---- 7. MICHAEL: "As everyone can understand each one of us is free to use whatever strategy we decide in order to sell our articles and he just decided to use that, starting with the less important cards and leaving the most valuables ready for a future deal as a unique lot. But he was making a huge mistake…..he never foresaw what a rage would be unleashed and what would happen: the furious reaction and accusatory response of Mr. Ryan" 7A. RESPONSE: Where in the world is this coming from? A furious reaction? An accusatory response? A rage unleashed? I know your English isn't great, so here's a word to familiarize yourself with: hyperbole. I am capable of unleashing rage and reacting furiously, but I can tell you it looks quite different than what you're referring to. Whatever the case, if I sounded angry in any post about these "cards", it wasn't at any individual other than the unknown(?) creator of them. Why so defensive? Interesting. ---- 8. I love how you call this next section "historical facts": MICHAEL: "When the cards first appeared on EBay, Mr. Ryan, almost immediately without having the time to study them deeply, on July 8, prepared a long essay by means of which he showed off his knowledge on Cuban cards (it is obvious, he lives on that) and provided infinite logical and illogical reasons to demonstrate this "fake". 8A. RESPONSE: First, your historical fact about July 8 was actually September 8. You don't have to be an archaelogist to scroll up this very page and read the date of the post. Next, I would love for you to point out the "illogical reasons" I gave as to why this issue is fake. Seriously. Please point them out to me. Do you think I like to write long-winded essays like this one and my earlier post of September 8th? Could you possibly understand how annoyed I am that I have to waste my time right now responding to you? Maybe you have enough time on your hands to post on chat boards in order to somehow "show off" your knowledge, but I can assure I have much better things to do with my life. Also, if you read the posts prior to mine on September 8th, I was ASKED to respond. ---- 9. MICHAEL: "Not satisfied with this he went into the trouble of writing to each of those who had obtained some of the cards to prevent them from this so called "swindle" 9A. RESPONSE: Wow, is this what you mean by "the facts and nothing but the facts"? Here's an ACTUAL fact: Your above statement is a flat out lie as I wrote exactly NONE of those who had obtained the cards. Not one. A friend of mine bought one and e-mailed me about it. He later showed it to me in person. Another collector e-mailed me before the auctions ended to ask my opinion. That's it. I'm sure some of those who bought the cards on ebay are lurkers here and are probably reading this thread. If so, let's ask them if I ever wrote them. I should also add that I would not feel guilty about contacting someone to help them avoid being swindled by scams like this one and it absolutely wouldn't be something I would hide. In this case it is simply not true. So much for your "historical facts". ---- 10. I'm never sure what you mean when you use the term "ridiculous prices" in your post. You claim that Luis paid "ridiculous prices" for the Polar crap, but does that mean a lot of money, or a little? You also say that I paid "ridiculous prices" for the cards I bought from Luis and at first I assumed you meant I paid a lot, which is true considering probably spent over 6 figures on Cuban baseball cards from him over a few years. Looking back, many do seem like bargains. At the time, I paid above what the current market value was for most of the items I bought. The reason is that I am a collector first, dealer second. Most of what I bought from Luis is still in my personal collection. Some things I've sold and will continue to sell since I am not independently wealthy, but my purchases in Cuba have been primarily as a collector, unlike El Cero who does not care at all about Cuban baseball cards, only in how much money he can turn them into. Fact. ---- 11. I don't know what your point was in posting all those pictures but damn, those are some sweet cards! Did you really have to post that Billiken card of Bill Holland? I just traded it on Friday and I think I felt a tear trickle down my cheek when I saw it again for the first time since our final goodbye. I'll miss you, Billiken Holland. Enjoy your new home. Also, I didn't buy that Tomas Gutierrez album of Major Leaguers or the individual Diaz card. Luis did offer me both of them, though, and maybe he thought I bought them. Nope. Thanks for the scans, though. ---- 12. MICHAEL: "When Mr. Ryan saw the Polar cards in EBay, which indicated that in this occasion the chance was flying away (this time he couldn't buy that lot directly) he angered..and the continuous attack started." 12A. RESPONSE: Hilarious! Why would my chance be flying away when they were right there on ebay where I could bid on them? When there are cards I want that turn up on ebay I am more than willing to do what it takes to win them. And all it takes is bidding more money than anyone else. I did not bid on the Polar forgeries because I do not collect forgeries. If they had been legit cards, why would it anger me for them to be sold on ebay? I'd be grateful to have a chance to buy them. In fact, Cuban stuff goes for less on ebay than in private sales or larger auctions, so I'd have been thrilled. Luis hasn't offered me any cards in quite a while and the last ones he offered, I didn't buy. I love the drama, though: "and the continuous attack started..." ---- 13. MICHAEL: "At the time the Prophet Ryan wrote it, he had been previously in contact with a lot of Cuban people( he knows a lot of people in Cuba, collectors and dealers) people which had already seen the whole Polar lot and passed on to him all the names and info he was prophesying. In Cuba this lot was not kept as a mystery, many people had seen it and given their opinions." 13A. RESPONSE: This is classic. Sorry, but I talked to NO ONE who had seen the lot. Not a single person. No one gave me any names, no one was feeding me any secret information. Go ask whoever these people are that you're talking about. There were countries other than Cuba that produced vintage cards and I've been more focused on those. But what you are saying is that I WAS EXACTLY RIGHT IN MY THEORY. You are saying that the plan was exactly as I had stated in my previous post. In fact, you are still here trying to hype the cards up so you can sell the big ones a few months from now, or even a few years from now. I know how patient Luis is. I've had to wait over a year to buy certain cards. It is great marketing and creates plenty of excitement and anticipation when the big cards finally do make it to the marketplace. Thanks for confirming what I had thought from the beginning. Don't worry, you will still be able to sell these fakes for plenty of money. I'm sure there are several board members who could afford it that would buy the whole lot right now. Why wait? These aren't going to get any more real or fake. It seems that everyone has already made up their mind, one way or the other. Facts are pointless. Oh, and just because you say "A guy told me that this other guy told him..." about something, that doesn't make it a fact. ---- 14. You mentioned that I was not so cautious when buying valuable cards from previously unknown sets in the past from Luis. I am always cautious when buying valuable cards. I bought the ones you mentioned because they are all real. ---- 15. I am still unsure whether or not Mike Campbell has a connection here or not, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and view his research as being what he has said it was, innocent research by a curious collector. I would like to be very clear here, though: I believe there is a strong chance that "Michael" is really El Cero himself, Luis. Whoever you are, thanks for letting me waste my evening writing this dissertation. Please don't be offended if I call any of your future forgeries "fakes" and don't take it personally when I label those who make fake cards as "scumbags." It's nothing personal, Luis. Really. -Ryan

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12-20-2005, 04:14 AM

Posted By: jamieHaving followed this story with nothing more than a passing interest, I had been on the fence of the authenticity of these cards. Now I'm convinced they're fakes. Even if the garbage you're spewing were true- a prototype set produced by a single person with no connection to Polar and with no more than 1-2 copies of the card? How is that any different than the "cards" I used to make as a kid by cutting out magazine pictures and writing stats on the back? You lost all credibility in my eyes by immediatly going on the attack.

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12-20-2005, 04:23 AM

Posted By: MWSo are there Cuban "Polar" cards of Dihigo, Bell, Charleston, Paige and Leonard?

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12-20-2005, 04:23 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisFake

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12-20-2005, 04:24 AM

Posted By: MWHal wants to know.

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12-20-2005, 05:04 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI do want to know... but only because it will PROVE to me that this is a scam! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-20-2005, 05:08 AM

Posted By: one-in-tenBut I called him the day these Polars came on ebay and his recitation of events surrounding the cards is accurate. Again, I had hopes these cards were real, not because I could ever own any, being the bottom feeder I am, but because I had hope some great players previously unrecognized in cards would be discovered, which would be cool as hell. Now it's pretty celar to me this was all a scam. Ah well. Chalk it up to experience. If a card costs more than 20 dollars, be wary. Make that 10 dollars. --Chad

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12-20-2005, 06:31 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellI do not know the "Michael" involved in the above thread. I am not part of a "scam". I am simply a memorabilia collector, and have been for many years. I bought the Jimmie Foxx Polar, and was simply trying to find out for myself, and others, a little bit more about them, and if possible, date them. I would appreciate it if my fellow hobbyists would refrain from throwing accusations around. I spent my own money, and own time, in trying to maybe solve this puzzle. If anyone wants to contact me personally, I would be glad to discuss this matter, in an adult fashion. I will even give my cell phone number to anyone who politely asks for it. I have nothing to hide. I wish now I had never gotten involved in this. My focus is pre war, and Jimmie Foxx, Buck Weaver, Hack Wilson and Lou Gehrig. Proof being, I recently bought a card from Darren Duet, whom you all know. I paid him, he got it to me in a timely fashion, and all is well. This is my last message regarding these cards. If anyone wants to contact me by e mail, feel free to do. I will discuss the issue. Otherwise, the Polars are no longer part of the quotient. Ever. I have other things to do.

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12-20-2005, 06:56 AM

Posted By: identify7Please do not consider an inquiry as a criticism, but in reviewing this thread I notice that your first post here starts with "See my earlier posting". Where is that earlier posting?

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12-20-2005, 07:00 AM

Posted By: ChadDon't take this stuff personally. Nobody's acusing you of being part of the "scam". (Well, not nobody I guess, since you have received private e-mails. I suppose I mean publically accused you.) In fact, I think most of us are grateful you'd take the time and effort to try to validate or invalidate the cards. I thought it was excellent of you, myself. I was still undecided about them until the loony post about Ryan hit this thread. Ryan had legitimate reservations about the cards that he shared with the board at one of the buyer's request. Don't let this experience sour you. Or try not to, because I can understand your frustration. --Chad

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12-20-2005, 07:04 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellI guess my statement of no more messages on this issue didn't last long. You are right. I hadn't backed up into the thread for quite some time. But you are correct. In fact it appears as if more a few of my earlier messages regarding this issue have disappeared. I guess you would have to ask one of the moderators. But you are right, my earlier, and initial messages have all gone away. I have no idea why. But as stated earlier, I would be willing to discuss this matter privately. I no longer care about this issue. But I do care about having my earlier messages deleted, and some of the personal attacks I have encountered.

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12-20-2005, 07:26 AM

Posted By: ramramI don't know that your posting disappeared. I think there was a different thread earlier: <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1127513261/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1127513261/</a>

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12-20-2005, 07:41 AM

Posted By: mike campbellNo problem. Thanks Ramram. I appreciate it. Sorry if my last e mail seemed a bit pointed. I meant no disrespect towards the moderators. To the individuals who police this forum, thanks for the good work. We all appreciate it greatly. Now.....onward and upward. No more Polar talk from me. Back to prewar.

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12-20-2005, 07:51 AM

Posted By: leonI am not aware of any post in this thread, or any other one concerning this topic, to have been modified, censored, or deleted by a moderator. This is a very open forum. There are 4 folks that can edit others posts and none of us have. Two of those folks only do so under adverse circumstances when Brian or myself might not see it and it's clearly a violation of forum policy. We are very careful. My only concern in this thread is the person staying anonymous and throwing accusations. Well thought out and fairly well written, but anonymous. There is a board policy against that, however I take things on a case by case basis too. If Ryan would have asked me to delete the person's anonymous post(s), as they involve him, I would have done it. Ryan has not asked me to and has rebutted very nicely. Mike- I am fairly sure no one on this board is accusing you of anything whatsovever in the way of unethical behavior (unless I misread the posts). I think we are all very appreciative of your efforts and your participation on the board. I know I am ......best regards

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12-20-2005, 07:54 AM

Posted By: mike campbellThanks Leon. Well said. Thanks for your work here.

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12-20-2005, 11:00 AM

Posted By: Todd Schultzand I'll look again, but I haven't seen a complete response from Ryan as to the findings, by a disinterested party(ies) no less, that the cards were manufactured in the late 50's. Instead the thread mostly devolved into a pi$$ing match. Ryan, I believe you are saying that someone recently got old paper from the 50's and then produced the cards on that old paper? While that is certainly possible, I am not convinced that your arguments are even presumptively correct, much less demonstrated. I do not know whether the experts Mike consulted did more than just research on paper dating, maybe more information is out there or I just didn't read closely. If the cards were produced in the late 50's, then I'm hardpressed to figure the motives for this scam that everybody wants to curse. I'm not saying that I'd blow my yearly card budget on any of these cards, and I understand Ryan's (and now Frank Ward's) cynicism, but I will echo others in saying I'm glad Mike took the time and trouble to have the matter researched and I will remain, at least for now, on the fence.

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12-20-2005, 11:22 AM

Posted By: identify7Perhaps I am equally dense here, but I strive for better than mere equality in density. In any case, it seems to me that Mike Campbell has generated information which indicates with a 75-80% certainty that the Polar cards were made in the fifties, then never distributed. The opposing view (which is not in disagreement with the opinion Mike has obtained) states that the Polar cards were made more recently, perhaps using old materials, then never distributed. Is the simple process of making a card - without ever distributing it, to anyone - sufficient to make it a collectible? My vote is no. I guess there must be something here which I have yet to grasp. Please clarify what I do not understand. Thank you.

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12-20-2005, 11:34 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellI keep reneging on my vow to stop inputting messages regarding this matter. But I received a message earlier today from the e bay seller. It has no bearing on their authenticity one way or the other, I just thought I would pass it along. I have others from him. You will note that he is asking me for the results of my findings. I have not told him any of the results. I simply told him that this issue is up in the air, and that there many skeptics, and rightfully so. I am undecided if I will pass on the results. Just a few minutes ago, I was cleaning my office, and ridding myself of junk that accumulates. I also was searching for a Foxx card I had lost. Found it. I came across the documentation from the paper conservator on this matter. Reread it. Oh well.... Dear , Mike I haven't been into this , I have a business to take care of . I'm not the owner of the cards, I just being doing a favor for my friend in Cuba. I think honestly that the cards are authentic, my friend is a good and honest men, who has been collecting for many years and have the knowledge, I understand there are collectors that think the cards are fake, hey, this is a free country, they are entitled to have their opinion, I have mine, you have yours, please let me know about the results of your investigation and scientific tests, best wishes

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12-20-2005, 11:42 AM

Posted By: MarkGil, a lot of cards that were never distribtued are quite valuable, Alleghenys for example.

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12-20-2005, 11:45 AM

Posted By: PaulIt's not clear to me whether the independent experts tested the photos, the paper on the back, or both. If only the photos were tested, that would leave open the possibility that someone glued an old magazine photo to a backing. I think this possibility was suggested much earlier in the thread (though I'm not going to read through the whole thread to confirm this). I hate to bug Mike to post again, but can you clarify whether the age of the backs was tested?

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12-20-2005, 11:55 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethThe question appears to be whether these cards are from the 50s or a more recent contrivance. But even if from the 50s, wouldn't any significant cards be post-career by years or even decades?

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12-20-2005, 11:58 AM

Posted By: identify7Well Mark, although CWYWC certainly applies here, my opinion stands. Specifically, I limit my baseball card collection to solely include cards which were distributed (any amount of distribution, above zero, qualifies). I do not know the history of Alleghenys, Polar, and many other sets. However, I am interested in these histories. For example, more detail on "... relative of a representative of the Polar Cia. in Cuba in the late 50's. The cards were only a part from a bigger lot of Polar memorabilia ..." could clarify the origin of the cards, whether they were manufactured under contract, or other authorization ie. compensation for the card generation, or whether it was little more than my potential attempt to sell Budwiser on the merits of producing a set of cards employing photos I had taken and assembled with their logo, etc.

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12-20-2005, 12:28 PM

Posted By: Mike CampbellPaul: You're not bugging me. No problem. I had shown this card to photo folks, printing folks. From the State Historical Society. I then took it to a second party paper conservator. An independent Corporation. I had planned on taking it a step further, and have the glue on the back tested, and the paper mulch tested. I was told that this would damage the card, due to the fact that it would be necessary to remove a bit of paper. I decided against it. My thinking at the time was, that I could purchase a lessor player and sacrifice that card to the forensic folks. But at about this time, I received I believe it was three e mails from forum folks, (Not all the same week) over the course of time, questioning my knowledge of pre war items, (Not sure why I received this one, no one ever claimed this was pre war) questioning my intelligence, and another wondering why I was wasting my time. Nice huh? Anyway, figured why should I travel to another state, spend more money, when it seems that most had already made up their minds. I am told by the way, from a gentleman I came across in New Hampshire I believe, can't recall right now, that one of the nations leading experts on dating paper, and paper process, lives only 300 miles from me. I had planned on going to see her, but then figured, whats the point. Besides, the holidays were approaching, and I have a corporation to tend to. Let me see if I can make this short regarding the cards. I own an investment firm, I am not a scientist so I will relay a "bit" of the Exam report: Description: Type of object: Photographic baseball card Support: Pulp board / photographic paper laminate Fiber type mixed visual (exam under 5 Dioptre or 2 1/2 power @ 20cm) Color Natural Weight Heavy Surface coated (emulsion) method of manufacture machine made, wove opacity opaque grain direction unknown Media offset process litho ink (verso) silver gelatin emulsion (recto) visual exam under 5 Dioptre or 2 1/2 power @ 20cm and raking light. Non-original attachements: (glue) Waterbased adhesive - vegetable gum (visual exam under 5 Dioptre or 2 1/2 power @ 20cm. Paper remnants: Black (I will skip alot of the Stough I don't understand) Date or periodn.d. (ca.1950's? in question) I will be at the Rosemount show in march, maybe I can meet up with some people, and I will bring this along, and share it. Besides i would love to meet people with some of the same interests I have. And maybe find some nuggets for sale.

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12-20-2005, 03:10 PM

Posted By: MW< but only because it will PROVE to me that this is a scam! >> Hal, I agree. It would make Ryan some kind of amazing Cuban baseball card psychic <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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12-21-2005, 09:25 AM

Posted By: RobFantasy collector issues didn't start popping up in the USA until the late 1960's to mid 1970's, making it most improbable that there was someone in Cuba concoting a fantasy issue there. That the paper & printing is reported as consistent with 1950's convinces me. It a shame an "expert" argues they are fakes with without actually viewing the cards. I didn't bid on the cards, but for reason the cards didn't look right at the time they were offered. I like the protoype theory, as it's most plausible that Castro in power stopped distribution plans. Whether or not they are valuable is another issue. Personally, they look nondescript, unattracive and are TOO rare as well as little known to be valuable.

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12-21-2005, 09:32 AM

Posted By: davidis it possible to have the owner of the cards post the full checklist and note which cards there are duplicates of and if the duplicates are of the same pose or unique poses of the same player. additionally i believe there are several well known document forgeries that were done using period ink and parchment so dating the paper can still not be conclusive as to the authenticity of the cards

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12-21-2005, 09:39 AM

Posted By: jay behrensRob, the best I can figure is that all that has been proven is that the paper is from the late 1950s. This does not mean that the cards were printed then. It jsut means the paper is that old. If you are going forge an Egyptian papyrus concerning the reign of King Tutankahmen, you need papyrus from the correct era to try and fool experts. Same goes for creating a "fantasy" set of vintage cards to try and fool experts. I'm guessing you've never seen these Polar cards either, which menas you ahve no more insight than Ryan does into this set. Given the fact that I have no clue who you are and that I know Ryan and his expertize in the field, I'd take his at his word that set doesn't seem legit. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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12-21-2005, 09:48 AM

Posted By: ChadSelf styled expert? Ryan, has in fact, had one of these cards in hand. As far as his credentials go, if you can find a collector in this country, or even in Cuba, who has handled more Cuban cards, I wish you'd let us know who he is. Look, Ryan has nothing to gain by exposing these cards. If they are real, he can't very well buy them up and then sell them on his website. He's doing us a service and his volunteering to go out on a limb and give his best opinion on these cards shouldn't be met with half assed attacks. If he does end up being wrong about this, he'll be the first to admit it. I'll bet Ty Cobbs to Jack Barrys he isn't, tho. --Chad

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12-21-2005, 09:52 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellI vowed to move on from the Polars, maybe I can help here. I have a list sent to me of all cards in this set so far discovered. Below find a list of all cards known as of Oct. 7 of this year. I am told there are a few duplicates, but not many. This list was sent to me, so please don't hold me respondsible for it's contents. I am passing on what I was told. I am also told, none have been found since the initial find. So, if 20 Ruths all of a sudden show up, then I guess we have an answer. But since I was told emphatically that this is it, and they are real, if anyone ever starts spotting pails of these, then we will know. So here goes. J. C. Mendez > > > > M. Dihigo > > > > > > > > O. Miñoso > > > > > > > > Armando Marsans > > > > > > > > Isidro Fabre > > > > > > > > Antonio Susine > > > > > > > > Adolfo Luque > > > > > > > > Yoyo Diaz > > > > > > > > Jacinto Calvo > > > > > > > > E. Antonio Palmero > > > > > > > > Manuel "Patato" Cueto > > > > > > > > C. Marrero > > > > > > > > Fermin Guerra > > > > > > > > Julio E. Gonzalez > > > > > > > > Lazaro Salazar > > > > > > > > Agapito Mayor > > > > > > > > Babe Ruth > > > > > > > > S. Paige > > > > > > > > O. Charleston > > > > > > > > M. Ott > > > > > > > > L. Grove > > > > > > > > T. Cobb > > > > > > > > M. Irving > > > > > > > > Frank Robinson > > > > > > > > B. McKechnie > > > > > > > > Ted Williams > > > > > > > > M. Cochrane > > > > > > > > L. Waner > > > > > > > > Jimmie Foxx > > > > > > > > Frank Chance > > > > > > > > Nap. Lajoie > > > > > > > > Fred Lindstron > > > > > > > > G. Sisler > > > > > > > > B. Feller > > > > > > > > F. McGlunity > > > > > > > > W. Keeler > > > > > > > > B. Dickey > > > > > > > > F. Frisch > > > > > > > > E. Combs > > > > > > > > C. Hubbell > > > > > > > > Waite Hoyt > > > > > > > > Red Ruffing > > > > > > > > George Kelly > > > > > > > > L. Gomez > > > > > > > > T. Sewell > > > > > > > > T. Jackson > > > > > > > > C. Mathewson > > > > > > > > G. C. Alexander > > > > > > > > L. Appling > > > > > > > > R. Maranville > > > > > > > > Bucky Harris > > > > > > > > L. Boudreau > > > > > > > > H. Manush > > > > > > > > F. Jacobs > > > > > > > > R. Roberts > > > > > > > > G. Hartnett > > > > > > > > J. Sewell > > > > > > > > B. Wallace > > > > > > > > W. Johnson > > > > > > > > M. Carey > > > > > > > > H. Hooper > > > > > > > > S. Rice > > > > > > > > Ralph Kiner > > > > > > > > A. Simmons > > > > > > > > J. Gibson > > > > > > > > H. Heilmann > > > > > > > > C. Klein > > > > > > > > E. Collins > > > > > > > > P. W. Reese > > > > > > > > D. Vance > > > > > > > > G. Goslin > > > > > > > > P. Traynor > > > > > > > > K. Cuyler > > > > > > > > J. Cronin > > > > > > > > D. Bancroft > > > > > > > > Z. Wheat > > > > > > > > J. Medwick > > > > > > > > C. Hafey > > > > > > > > R. Marquard > > > > > > > > E. Rixey > > > > > > > > R. Ferrell > > > > > > > > M. Brown > > > > > > > > R. Faber > > > >

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12-21-2005, 10:02 AM

Posted By: Mike CampbellBy the way Jay, I believe we are both Minnesotans. Nice weather huh?

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12-21-2005, 10:49 AM

Posted By: jay behrensyeah, at least the freezing rain stopped. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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12-21-2005, 11:26 AM

Posted By: sagardCome on guys. Minnesota isn't bad right now. The outdoor rinks have ice, it's not 10 below. Life is good. I said it on the first thread. Whoever is selling these cards is likely leaving tens of thousands dollars on the table by not trying to get SGC/PSA or GAI to authenticate these items. That to me is telling.

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12-21-2005, 11:30 AM

Posted By: Harry KressCan SGC/PSA/GAI authenticate Cuban cards better than Ryan? I don't think so

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12-21-2005, 12:17 PM

Posted By: jay behrensIf my experinece with SGC as far as trying to get uncatalogued cards slabs is any indicator, they aren't going to do it unless someone like Ryan and few other experts step forward and say the cards legit. I can't speak to an experience with PSA or GAI, but I doubt they are going to readily slab an unknown issue. Hell, PSA has a hard enough time properly IDing known issues. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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12-21-2005, 12:18 PM

Posted By: Rob Yet here is where the buyer had taken the trouble to have the cards viewed by experts on old paper & printing who say they are from that era. This makes for a convincing case they were made in that era. If the seller was out to scam someone, then he didn't make a lot of money for his efforts. It's most unlikely the seller'd anticipate someone taking the trouble to having them examined in a manner where as much or more was spent verifying the authenticity of the card than what the cards sold for. I was made to believe it's probable that these are vintage prototypes, given the political events in Cuba in 1959, that the "Polar" was done in different ways on the card fronts, the eclectic selection of subjects is consistent with earlier Cuban issues as to suggest authenticity. Now, having said all of that, perhaps the buyer posting on this board is working in collusion with the seller, that there is a long line off BS about the cards origins, paper tested ect. Then I would agree with Ryan here as to motive, they are hoping to make the big money from deep pocketed vintage baseball card buyers later. It's hard to tell the card thickness from the scans, but the card appears to be on a thinner stock. I would expect a thicker cardboard used in the late 1950's era. The font of the printing on the back suggests pre WWII, a mistake someone trying to concote an elaborate fake would make. These are the reasons I did not bid on the cards, I focused on the card appearance, not the rationale used by Ryan. If this is a scam, then it's a scam being played at a level far above the jokers baking Dover reprints being sold to suckers on Ebay. Now, if I had those cards and was convinced they were real, heres the route I would take: I would compile a checklist and get them included in the SCD catalog, have a press release about "Newly Discovered" cards in hobby publications, exhibiting the cards at major card shows, and do other things to build the value of the cards. Then I would consign to an auction house were the final price comes from the last bid, not a designated time as with Ebay, unacceptable as a seller of something that rarity (although quite nice for the sniping bidder).

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12-21-2005, 12:53 PM

Posted By: mike campbellI am the buyer of one card. That hardly puts me in collusion with the seller. The seller and I have exchanged a few e mails. Contrary to what it may appear in here, I do not have to time to concoct a scheme to defraud anyone. Let alone one of this magnitude. I mean really...as an earlier post of mine states, Jay Behrens, whom everyone in here knows, lives near me. He is welcome to come to my home, and see that I do not have horns, cloven hoofs, and a tail. I retired at 51, from a Bank Corp, in Minnesota that Jay is more than familiar with, then formed my own investment firm. Why do I feel like I need to prove myself, and justify everything I do ? Jay can stop in and check out my pre war collection, any time. My wife and children would welcome him, as would I. I speak of him, because everyone else lives far away from the arctic circle.. And I will say this for the very last time, I couldn't care less whether they are real or fake. I have no vested interest in this. I bought a freakin' card, and tryed to find out a little about it, and contribute something to the hobby. I will never do that again.

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12-21-2005, 12:58 PM

Posted By: David VarghaBut Mike, Isn't it true that you investment banker types have pitchforks? DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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12-21-2005, 01:19 PM

Posted By: jay behrensDavid, you are wrong about the pitch fork. They've just sold their soul to the devil. The pitchfork is extra :-p Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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12-21-2005, 03:12 PM

Posted By: fkwOnly 16 of the 83 (known/listed) players look to be Cuban players. While 67 of the 83 players are American Baseball Stars and/or Hall of Famers. You have a Frank Robinson (played 1956-1976) and a Wee Willie Keeler (played 1892-1910) in the same set????. Then you have big name, potentially big $$ cards, like Dihigo, Ruth, Paige, Charleston, Cobb, Williams, and Gibson in this group. To me a Keeler, Marsans, or Charleston made no earlier than mid 1956 looses some of its demand. Weird <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank

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12-21-2005, 04:02 PM

Posted By: davidthe player selection always worries me, and i was waiting for others to confirm my suspicions. keeler seems to be out of place and there are scant cuban league players except for several very high profile players toss in some minor american HOF and it just doesnt seem right. i would like to see pictures of all the cards also if possible to see what the picture selection is for all of the cards. what team is frank robinson shown with for instance? additionally the apparent lack of continuity of the design should also be troublesome, even for a proof set. also, why would a proof set have advertising on the back>?

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12-21-2005, 05:17 PM

Posted By: barrysloateNot being an expert on Cuban cards, but having some experience with them, I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. However, after seeing the checklist I do have some questions about the merit of this set. Let's assume they are real for a moment: it is still a mishmash of players from all different eras with no rhyme or reason as to why they were grouped together. It is reminiscent of the 1960-61 Fleer sets that commemorate players whose careers have long past. I think a distinction has to be made between fine period sets such as Billiken and Aguilitas and this concoction that honors players deceased, living, current, and retired. And that's assuming they are real. Even in the best of circumstances it does not strike me as a very significant set.

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12-22-2005, 08:44 AM

Posted By: mike campbellNo I don't use a pitchfork, I use a 42 ounce Louisville Slugger. By the way, if anyone hasn't had a chance to tour through their factory in Louisville, it is quite interesting. I was through there recently. And yes, I too noticed the disparity in players, and time periods. But again, just reporting what I found out. I am not the judge here. But I do agree, it is an odd assortment of players. When I added that list, I knew controversy would ensue. No more Polar messages from me.