lawsuit against psa for 10.5 million awarded to........ [Archive]

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11-09-2005, 11:44 AM

Posted By: scott ingoldI found this on the cu boards and know it wont last long. My ? is how many auto's have actually been looked at ? I mean if they are just slapping peoples names on the stuff. What about Spence ? Bill Miller, former publisher of Autograph Collector magazine (owned by Collectors Universe) is suing Collectors Universe (parent company of PSA-DNA). Bill has told me that THOUSANDS of COA's with his facsimile signature were issued by PSA-DNA. The number of items he examined was ZERO. Why has PSA implied that autograph authorities are examining the autograph submissions that they receive? Mr. Miller's attorney has deposed the head of Collectors Universe and will be deposing Joe Orlando, the president of PSA-DNA. Why would PSA put facsimile signatures on their COA's of people who never looked at the item? Now the question is, did Jimmy Spence, Steve Grad,Zack Rullo, Bob Eaton, John Reznikoff, etc. look at an item that has their signature on the COA? Here is a press release from the law firm that represented Bill Miller: Former Collectors Universe Executive Wins $10.5 Million Verdict; Boudreau, Albert & Wohlfeil Represents Plaintiff SANTA ANA, Calif., Nov 09, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Boudreau, Albert & Wohlfeil LLP announced today that an Orange County jury awarded a former executive of Collectors Universe, William Miller, with awards that could total in excess of $10.5 million against Collectors Universe [ CLCT] . The jury found that Collectors Universe used Miller's name on 14,060 Certificates of Authenticity without his permission. "We are grateful that the jury saw fit to hold Collectors Universe accountable for its actions," said Andrew Albert, lead attorney on the case and partner at the law offices of Boudreau, Albert & Wohlfeil LLP. "Their verdict is an important step in allowing Bill to reclaim his good name and to protect the public from false authentication services." In his suit, filed August 2004, Miller alleged that Collectors Universe placed his name and signature on Certificates of Authenticity which indicated that he had examined items being authenticated, when, in fact, he had never performed a single authentication for the company's PSA/DNA Division, under which the certificates wer! e issued. Miller's suit alleged violation of his right to privacy by misappropriating his name. Under California Civil Code section 3344 compensatory damages of $750 per unauthorized use are presumed. In addition, court costs and attorney's fees are recoverable. The jury found that Miller had been harmed by Collectors' unauthorized use of his name. The court has previously ruled in the first phase of the trial that for each unauthorized use of his name, Miller may recover $750. The jury also awarded Miller Collector's profits made through the use of his name. Attorney's fees may also be added to the judgment. Miller said he feels vindicated by the clear-cut jury verdict. "It's horrible enough to have your name taken from you purely for someone else's financial gain, but it's another thing to be used as a pawn to deceive or even defraud the public. ! For the rest of my life, I will live with the uncomfortable feeling that at any time I might be held responsible for someone who authenticated an autograph I never looked at. When an item turns out to be not genuine, as we have already found to be the case in a number of instances, it's my name which will bear the responsibility and my reputation, carefully built over 15 years, which will be damaged." SOURCE: Boudreau, Albert & Wohlfeil LLP A QUESTION FOR PSA: Facsimile signatures of their authenticators are printed at the bottom of the COA's. Who is authenticating these autographs? Collectors don't you want to know who examined your autograph? Is it a former hotel autograph chaser examining your autographs? They have such people on staff. Is it someone who authenticates autographs with barely a look? Is it someone who examines autographs under glass, without removing the glass first, to see if the signature is printed? Their most experienced authenticator is no longer with the company. Bill Miller's name is on thousands of COA's. He never examined an item. A question for Spence, Rullo, Grad, Epperson, Reznikoff, Eaton, etc. whose names appear or have appeared on PSA COA's. Are you examining the items that have your name on the PSA COA? Mr. Miller did not examine any items

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11-09-2005, 11:55 AM

Posted By: jay behrensThe real question is, will this get the appriotately large headlines it deserves in SCD and elsewhere, or it will it be buried or not even reported on? Jay I'm incompetent at being incontenent.

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11-09-2005, 12:19 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Maybe I just don't get this: "The jury found that Collectors Universe used Miller's name on 14,060 Certificates of Authenticity without his permission." Do you mean to tell me that it took over 14,000 COAs to be sent out before Miller figured this out? In the name of common sense, we've beat PSA/DNA like a dead horse in this forum (in the past) because many felt that you can't blanket entire auction lots of hundreds of autographs with one COA (as was a practice in the past) and now Miller wants a pound of flesh because his name is on over 14,000 COAs. What's he saying? Is he saying that he no longer believes in the authentications that took place? "Their verdict is an important step in allowing Bill to reclaim his good name and to protect the public from false authentication services." Hahahahahahahaha.... what a joke! In his suit, filed August 2004, Miller alleged that Collectors Universe placed his name and signature on Certificates of Authenticity which indicated that he had examined items being authenticated, when, in fact, he had never performed a single authentication for the company's PSA/DNA Division, under which the certificates wer! e issued. Miller's suit alleged violation of his right to privacy by misappropriating his name. Believe me when I say I'm no PSA/DNA fan. In this case a past officer of the company suing because of the reason provided just seems a bit ridiculous and the courts finding in his favor is even more so ridiciulous. They're all out of order.... If Leon doesn't kill this thread... let the comments (blasting) begin....

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11-09-2005, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisThat's why I collect cards and NOT autographs!

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11-09-2005, 12:35 PM

Posted By: leonSince PSA is the largest grading company and a lot, if not most, of the board uses them at least sometimes, why would I delete this? If they screwed up again shouldn't it be made known? If SGC or GAI did the same thing (and I don't think they will) then I would let that go too. This is not really a biased board as some others are, in that respect....except that the majority of vintage folks prefer SGC for obvious reasons....regards

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11-09-2005, 12:47 PM

Posted By: AnonymousSpence is now working for SGC...(or sub-contracting his services to them) <a href="http://www.sgccard.com/news.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccard.com/news.htm</a>

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11-09-2005, 12:48 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI'm sure this guy didn't have a problem with his name on the COAs until he got uncomfortable with the number of fakes that were turning up with his fake sig attached. Jay I'm incompetent at being incontenent.

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11-09-2005, 12:49 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Moderator Dude, The only reason I referenced the possible deletion (by you) is because the post was not directly related to cards and in the past we used to make a blood sport out of "bashing, trashing, thrashing" and otherwise pushing the envelope with our written attitudes about PSA and PSA/DNA in general. Now if the law suit was about PSA card grading services it would be wide open on this board. Since it was PSA/DNA autograph services I wasn't so sure you'd allow it. Thank you for not shutting this one down. I can't wait to see the comments on this ridiculously stupid (my opinion, of course) law suit. Thanks, Someone that doesn't mind to see a good PSA/DNA bashing

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11-09-2005, 12:52 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthI have always stayed as far away from autographs and memorabilia. I know my signature changes from day to day so how can someone actually authenticate something that is known to vary as much as a signature? There are other issues as well that raise questions as to authenticity of memorabilia but that's for another discussion. I do not know Miller's reputation but I do not hold any of those who authenticate autographs and memorabilia as experts. Just not sure it is really possible to be an expert in that field but I may be totally ignorant. Another suit in which CU has been found negligent and the public is still left holding the bag. Based on recent court proceedings it would seem that CU's actions have harmed the reputations of certain individuals. Earlier this year it was Real Legends with regards to the WIWAG debacle and now this. I am glad these folks are being made whole if they were truly injured but what about the collectors who have WIWAGed cards and now the thousands of lucky owners who have Miller LOA's for items he is alleging he never saw?

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11-09-2005, 01:10 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSometimes you will see a lot in an auction catalog that contains, for example, 1500 3x5 index cards each with a ballplayer's signature. The lot description might then conclude "Comes with COA from (whomever)" But if you decide to break up the lot and sell them individually you would need 1500 COA's so that each collector has one to go with his purchase. How does this work? Is this COA photocopied by the auction house or by the new owner? As you can see, I've never bought an autograph lot myself so I have no clue.

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11-09-2005, 01:13 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI understand Miller's objection and would be against my name being used on LOAs like that. However, when I saw one of these LOAs I interpreted it to mean that the faux signatures was merely a list of employees and those who had not hand signed had not examined the autograph. Kind of like a standard company stationary will list as part of the letterhead the founder and president, even though the letter contents may be the secretary asking for more dixie cups for the employee lounge.

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11-09-2005, 01:22 PM

Posted By: warshawlaw1. I LMFAO when I read this. 14,000+ bad certs? OUCH! 2. Just when you think the slime can't be any deeper...Couldn't happen to nicer guys. 3. Out of an abundance of caution I would urge people here NOT to send ANYTHING to PSA until this is all sorted out because the items may end up in limbo. $10.5 million is a heck of a lot of money for such a shaky company to have to pony up, and it is enforceable virtually immediately. An appeal bond for that verdict would be about $15 million plus appellate costs and attorneys' fees, and the bonding company would require PSA to post clear collateral equal to that sum. Absent a bond, the sheriff's collectors can be sent into PSA's offices to start stripping checks from the incoming slabbing items, their bank accounts can be drained, all property seized and/or liened, etc. This usually has the effect of either forcing a company to file a bankruptcy petition (which requires court approval to continue operations) or it throws a hell of a monkey wrench into their operations as they are stripped of cash. Regardless of what you think of PSA, the victims of this are likely to extend to anyone with cards there now or in the near future.

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11-09-2005, 01:26 PM

Posted By: DJAs far as the comments above (BOTN), I can tell you that there are experts in the business that have a great deal of knowledge and can tell in one second whether something is good or something is bogus. A good authenticator takes his job very seriously and as none of us I'm sure can tell the difference between an Elmyr de Hory forgery (back to painting) and a Modigliani, there are those who posses the eye for being able to tell the difference between an authentic Bambino and a forgery. Even a novice collector can look for things in a signature like appropriate slants, skips, stops and perhaps a slow hand "drew" that signature where a person who has signed his/her name a million times would not be unfamiliar with the writing of one's own name. With "Babe Ruth", you have to be 8-8 in a convincing speed and if you butcher up the "u"...this provides some question. With a good trained eye and a good exemplar collection, a good authenticator can be born. I can tell you first hand that this business is...well, a mess and while I do have one big toe in the collecting world of autographs, I prefer cards so much more even though many of you can question how an authenticator can tell the difference between A (worth $2,000) and B (worth nothing), how can baseball card folks tell if an O.J is trimmed or if there's a miscut or if a T206 is in fact 1/32nd of an inch off and deemed a trim. Did I mention that the autograph business is a mess? It's all about educating yourself, relying on the words of "experts" and any collectible field has them whether it be Pez dispensers, milk cow dispensers, first editions, jazz albums or non-sport war trading cards. My two cents. DJ

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11-09-2005, 01:27 PM

Posted By: barrysloateAdam- Are you saying there is a realistic possibility that PSA could go under?

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11-09-2005, 01:28 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasThat might be a little extreme,considering the company has $67,000,000 in cash? Are you trying to start a panic?

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11-09-2005, 01:33 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthThey have an insurance policy in place. I have not looked at their financials and while 10.5 is a good chunk of change they have some cash, credit lines and a market cap of over 100 mil. I am sure they will weather this storm too. They always seem to land on their feet no matter what is tossed their way.

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11-09-2005, 01:36 PM

Posted By: DJBut if you decide to break up the lot and sell them individually you would need 1500 COA's so that each collector has one to go with his purchase. How does this work? Is this COA photocopied by the auction house or by the new owner? As you can see, I've never bought an autograph lot myself so I have no clue. Well Barry, you would get one LOA that simply brings forth the vital information that "PSA/DNA" has authenticated the entire 1500 lot. It's called a "Blanket LOA" and would mention some of the keys (Lemon, Kaline, Leonard, Bell, Piazza etc., were included). The document would be original and signed by one of the authenticators. Now if you wanted to sell off the lot, the seller would usually photocopy 1500 of these letters and include it in the sale of one of the purchases. So if you bought the Al Kaline, the seller would give you a copy of the LOA. The question of course is: Can't this seller simply "say" it's from the lot and give you a blatant forgery? That's the HUGE problem with blanket LOA's and I believe PSA/DNA is being taken to court by seller Bill Daniels for a purchase he made with Mastro that included a "Blanket LOA". DJ

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11-09-2005, 01:39 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasIMHO WIWAG was much more severe and PSA seemed to rebound even stronger. Hard to see how this could Bankrupt the company. Even if they had to sell off divisions, there would be a line of people ready to buy the card grading division. Although, GAI and SGC could gain some market share from this.

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11-09-2005, 01:47 PM

Posted By: warshawlawEver try to get an insurer to pay off, even if there is coverage? The easiest way to make the money flow is to start grabbing it wherever it can be found, and tapping the till at PSA and freezing their bank accounts is the cheapest and easiest way to go about it. It also has the added benefit of disrupting their business and spurring them to do what it takes to pay off. The lawyers are in Santa Ana; expect them to do what is easiest and quickest to get to the money. The stock dropped nearly 9% today.

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11-09-2005, 01:56 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthIn my limited scope as a business manager I have had no problem getting insurance companies to pay off. 10.5 million was not at stake but there were solid six figure settlements involved. CU's insurer already paid out 600k to Real Legends. I suspect CU has access to cash if they had to make this go away. If what Charlie says is right, that they have 67 mil in cash and equivilents then 10.5 is nothing to close down doors over.

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11-09-2005, 02:10 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Going back to that 1,500 autograph "blanket LOA/COA"... If they spent only 1 minute looking at each item (that's taking time to pull it, look at it, put it back and go on to the next one) then it would take them 25 hours to go through 1,500 autopgraphs. I realize that the 1,500 is an arbitrary number but I've heard of LOAs covering hundreds of autographs. Do they really expect us to believe that they looked at every one of the autographs and spent enough time to actually determine whether or not the autograph was authentic? I heard they'd charge a small fee for the blanket LOAs which means that they probably didn't examine every piece as the LOA might have implied. Its all BS and so is Miller for trying to push a law suit that states that 14,000+ LOAs later his name has possibly been damaged... maybe after the first few hundred or even less, but not after 14,000+ have gone out...

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11-09-2005, 02:37 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe beginning and the end is to purchase a autograph from a known to be respectable seller who has a lifetime guarantee of authenticity. Most respected autograph dealers have this lifetime policy and some autograph dealer groups require a member to have such a lifetime policy. That collectors are buying Mickey Mantle autographs from a seller with a 5 day return window and using a spin wheel to pick a seller, is a deficiency of the sellers as much as anything else It's not much different than early baseball cards on eBay. Folks like Lew Lipset, Scott Brockleman, Tic 'n Tic and Mark Macrae auction cards on eBay and anyone is welcome to bid. That there are bidders who skip these sellers in order to bid in no return private auctions and on AAA paperstock cutouts and color Fro Joy Babe Ruths is a expression of the buyers' ignorance more than anything else about the baseball card hobby.

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11-09-2005, 02:38 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultzthen PSA is covered. If there is even arguable coverage, then the insurer almost certainly handled the defense once the claim was tendered to it, or at least did not object to CU's choice of counsel and general defense. CU will appeal and the insurer will post a bond to forestall execution on any judgment, assuming the verdict actually gets reduced to a final judgment.

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11-09-2005, 02:56 PM

Posted By: AnonymousWarshawlaw, At June 30, CLCT had $65 million cash on the balance sheet. They raised money in a stock offering several months ago. Since they have no viable acquisition candidates and growth in their business doesn't require much capital, I figured they were hoarding cash for some unknown reason. Then WIWAG and now this. I wonder what is next. At least they're good for the bond

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11-09-2005, 04:56 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanFirst off, PSA isn't going under. 10 mil is hardly a drop in the bucket but not the end of the world to a company of the size of PSA. Next, the funniest thing about the 'article' which started this thread is the fact tht it was a press release from the law firm that represented the plaintiff. How ambulance-chasing lame is that? God help me the day that I have to put out a press release and circulate it on the net the next time I have a good day in court..sheesh.

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11-09-2005, 05:22 PM

Posted By: WPI agree with the above posts with regard to PSA not going under as a result of this judgement. The real problem as I see it is IF this lawsuit was not disclosed by PSA at the time of the second public offering. That could lead to fines and a potential class action lawsuit which under the right circumstances could bankrupt the company,

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11-09-2005, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Patrick McHughwould you buy clct (psa) stock right now. I would wait to see how this plays out.

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11-09-2005, 06:04 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWhy on earth would anyone buy the stock? It's hardly a growth company. Their idea of revenue growth is to get into the sealed, wax pack grading game. Hooray!

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11-09-2005, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)If you think the stock is going to dump then sell it short...

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11-09-2005, 06:12 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthCU disclosed in their May 2005 10-Q filing with the SEC the results of the Real Legends case. Was mentioned in earlier filings as well. I did not see mention of the Bill Miller suit until thier Sept 2005 10-K filing.

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11-09-2005, 07:01 PM

Posted By: WPBOTN, That's scary and possibly securities fraud. Did David hall sell shares when he knew that this lawusit was pending and not disclosed? If so, he should probably start looking for a good criminal attorney.

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11-09-2005, 07:50 PM

Posted By: AnthonyI think it's time for a management shakeup at PSA, starting from the top.

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11-09-2005, 09:04 PM

Posted By: RickJudge Rules That Headline of Press Release Prepared by Attorneys for Former Executive Concerning Verdict is Misleading Judge Orders Plaintiff's Attorneys to Retract Misleading Headline NEWPORT BEACH, Calif., Nov. 9 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Collectors Universe, Inc. (Nasdaq: CLCT), a leading provider of value-added authentication and grading services to dealers and collectors of high-value collectibles, today announced that an Orange County, California trial judge presiding over a case brought against the Company by a former employee, has issued an order that the headline of the press release, such release prepared earlier in the day by Boudreau, Albert & Wohlfeil, attorneys for that former employee, is misleading. The Judge's order states, in part, that: "The jury did reach a verdict in this matter on November 7, 2005, finding that 14,060 certificates of authenticity were issued by Collectors Universe, Inc. using William Miller's name and awarded Plaintiff William W. Miller only $14,060 for disgorgement of profits. The jury has not rendered a verdict for $10,500,000 or any amount other than $14,060. Furthermore, the jury was discharged on November 7, 2005, the verdict was adopted by this Court and the Court will determine the amount of damages awardable under Civil Code section 3344." The Judge also ordered the plaintiff's attorneys to retract the misleading headline, contained within their press release, announcing the $10.5 million verdict. As disclosed in the Company's Quarterly Report on Form 10-Q filed today with the Securities and Exchange Commission, despite the assertion of plaintiff's counsel that he is entitled to recover damages in excess of $10 million, the Company continues to believe that it will not incur any material liability to plaintiff in this case. However, there is little interpretive history with respect to the California statute, creating a number of relatively novel legal issues. As a result, it is not possible to predict, with certainty, how the Judge will ultimately rule on the issue of damages. About Collectors Universe Collectors Universe, Inc. is a leading provider of value added authentication and grading and certain related services to high-value collectibles and other high value asset markets. The Collectors Universe brands are among the strongest and best known in their respective markets. The Company authenticates and grades collectible coins, sports cards, autographs and stamps and, with its acquisition of GCAL, now also authenticates and grades diamonds. The Company also compiles and publishes authoritative information about collectible sports cards and sports memorabilia, United States and world coins, and entertainment memorabilia. This information is accessible to collectors and dealers at the Company's web site, <a href="http://www.collectors.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.collectors.com</a>, and is also published in print. In addition, with its acquisition of the "Palmieri's Market Monitor" the Company will also be publishing authoritative information about diamonds.

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11-09-2005, 09:19 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIs the above a press release from CU? The moral of today's story is to not mistake a press release for a independant news article.

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11-09-2005, 09:25 PM

Posted By: Rickit came from msn.com... 10.5 mill did seem like a lot regardless...but i guess you never know

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11-09-2005, 09:34 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackWith respect, PR Newswire, short for Public Relations Newswire, is in the business of publishing press releases for companies. There's nothing wrong with press releases, but they can be as reliable an information source as an an athlete's agent at contract time.

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11-09-2005, 09:44 PM

Posted By: AnonymousThe Company also compiles and publishes authoritative information about collectible sports cards and sports memorabilia ..what the SMR...LMFAO

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11-09-2005, 09:45 PM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasThe Short-sellers of CLCT might be in trouble if the damages awarded are $14,000 vs. $10,000,00? I am amazed at how many people are rooting for this company to implode? Based on the facts, those same people might want to re-cork the champange bottles. This ruling wouldn't put PRO Grading out of business.

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11-09-2005, 10:42 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWell, as I had said, when a lawyer must resort to creating his own press release in order to get out the news on a 'win' in court, that usually means that the mainstream press doesn't care - and usually there's a reason why they don't care, like in this case, the ambulance chaser got caught in a lie (shock!). If that is the reason the stock got pounded today, tomorrow will be a very ugly day for the shorts who jumped in this afternoon.

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11-09-2005, 11:21 PM

Posted By: Brian C DanielsAnthony (Login ANexANex) Re: lawsuit against psa for 10.5 million awarded to........ November 9 2005, 10:50 PM I think it's time for a management shakeup at PSA, starting from the top.

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11-09-2005, 11:56 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanOkay, i'm not saying this will bankrupt PSA..but let's play hypothetical.... PSA goes buhbye. What happens to the whole industry. I'm sorry, but i can't imagine that PSA going out of business wouldn't have a major impact. I am not smart enough to say what that impact is. But.. do you think there is a made rush on their inventory? Do people like Levi drop their prices dramatically? Is there a rash of widespread cracking... what happens? Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-10-2005, 06:02 AM

Posted By: WPPeople will always collect cards. There was a thriving card industry before PSA and if something happened to PSA the market will adjust. It might be healthy in the long un if the set registry madness cooled off.

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11-10-2005, 06:29 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI was thinking (as the stock market is about to open in two mins) that the reason for the drop yesterday may have been leaked info about lousy earnings. We'll see how it opens today. If it continues to go down (CLCT stock) then obviously the lawsuit was not necessarily the catalyst. Next, even if PSA went bankrupt, the Set Registry is a valuable asset and would be bought by one of the companies left standing and would remain intact in some fashion.

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11-10-2005, 08:11 AM

Posted By: Green Eye ShadeMore than the court verdict, the reason for the stock decline seems to be a weakening in CLCTs earnings performance. Versus the comparable quarter last year CLCTs operating income is down almost 50%. Much of this is the result of increased general and administrative expense. Digging a little further, half of this general and administrative expense increase results from the costs associated with Sarbanes Oxley compliance. This shows the impact of increased government regulation on small business. CLCT does not report this large a decline in earnings because of the substantial increase in interest income resulting from what they are earning on the funds from their recent stock offering. The quarter to quarter comparisons are actually worse than portrayed in the press releases since they compare quarter to quarter earnings per share on a fully diluted basis (reflecting the additional shares from the stock offering) but only the current quarter has this additional interest income from the funds generated by the offering. I think it would be more meaningful to compare undiluted prior quarter earnings with diluted current quarter earnings which would make the performance look even worse. This, in my opinion, is why the stock is going down.

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11-10-2005, 08:17 AM

Posted By: Jim FAs far as I understand, only $14 000 has been awarded so far. The $10mil is a bit premature. As far as the talk of CU going under, even if they do eventually go under, PSA will be spun off and continue business as usual. Psa card grading is still a solid business for the right people. Jim

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11-10-2005, 10:16 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanI'm not implying that the card industry would be ruined or that it would disappear. I don't think interest or volume of transactions would change. However, some major changes would occur. That I am sure of. What those changes are I am not sure. Yes the hobby would go on. How people acquire cards would not. I don't believe the prices they pay would change significantly would...however something would change. Imagine if Ferarri immploded and all the dealerships/service stations closed. Now Aston Martin and Mazerati would be forced to develop new dealerships..etc..etc..blah blah blah blah. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-10-2005, 11:20 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Short

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11-10-2005, 12:58 PM

Posted By: leonIf something happened to Collectors Universe I don't think it would have a long term bad effect on PSA card grading. My computer company I work for declared chapter 11 three months ago. We declared chapter 7 three weeks ago and were bought by a billion dollar company. Why? Because we have a good profitable business that was being run into the ground. PSA will survive regardless of CLCT. regards

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11-11-2005, 02:38 AM

Posted By: William HeitmanIt's not just a problem with autographs. When PSA was first starting up, they were practically doing handstands to get to grade the T206 Wagner that McNall and Gretzky had just bought. I happened to know the pedigree of the card and knew that it had been trimmed. The guy who was going to grade the card stopped by my home on the way to PSA headquarters to grade the card. He knew that the card had been trimmed, but told me PSA had to grade the card because the good publicity that would come from grading the card was all that was important and, besides the card was within the size limitations for T206. I told him that the smaller ones were all American Beauty and he responded that PSA was going to grade the card. I actually talked once to Bruce McNall about this and he acknowledged that he knew the card had been trimmed. So PSA, the owners of the card and the grader of the card knew it was trimmed. But put some plastic over it and all was forgotten.

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11-11-2005, 08:12 AM

Posted By: leonThat is an amazing story of the card....thanks for posting it....any other comments? regards

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11-11-2005, 08:17 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisBill: Was the card "trimmed" from a full strip or full sheet and therefore cut to prefect size... or was it "trimmed" ever-so-slightly around the egdes? If the card is UNDERSIZED... I would think that people would have easily noticed this over the years as the card was displayed with OTHER T206 Wagner cards, etc. Tell us more!!!

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11-11-2005, 08:19 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisIt's not every day that the author of "THE MONSTER" graces us with his presence!!! BILL: Please share with us the pedigree of the card!!! PLEASE!

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11-11-2005, 08:28 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI'm glad someone had the guts to step forward with the story that we all knew but dared not tell. I don't know Bill, but I've just gained some respect for him. I wouldn't have done it. Too much grief.

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11-11-2005, 08:28 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellAny more details?-fascinating.

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11-11-2005, 08:31 AM

Posted By: andy beckerwelcome bill! i saw your post in the t206 variation thread and wasn't sure if it was really you...or a prankster. who those who don't know, bill is an icon. he really did write the book on t206.

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11-11-2005, 08:36 AM

Posted By: GlennSomeday I'll tell my grandkids I was on the VBC forum on the morning Heitman revealed the truth about the Gretzky/McNall Wagner.

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11-11-2005, 10:41 AM

Posted By: jay behrensIf I remember correctly, the card was oversized and trimmed down to spec. Jay If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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11-11-2005, 05:56 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanJay Behrens has it just about right. The card was oversized and the image was skewed. It was trimmed to make it look right and is slightly thinner than it should be.

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11-11-2005, 06:51 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisWow! Are their any scans (if the scanner existed back then) or even color copies of the card BEFORE it underwent this "slimming and straightening" procedure??

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11-12-2005, 06:05 AM

Posted By: warshawlawthey prefer the term "size-challenged" to describe the condition of the pre-trim Wagner. Sheesh, no sensitivity around here...

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11-12-2005, 09:58 AM

Posted By: ChrisCan you imagine being the guy who was given the task of trimming the Wagner? How did the guy not have a nervous breakdown with that much money involved?

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11-12-2005, 10:09 AM

Posted By: Larry GladstoneIt was quite amazing to hear that Bill Heitman is still around... you are still active and it is great to see another "oldtimer" come back to the hobby and post. From what I recall, there was a dealer here on Long Island(name withheld)during mid 1980's, whom I transacted with prior to grading.. He had acquired a sheet with the Wagner on it and sold this item to a major dealer/collector....In time, this sheet was cut down and the Wagner in the PSA holder possibly was from that acquisition. Bill Heitman- I always enjoyed talking to you from the early days of collecting and had lots of fun during my youth transacting and talking about Obaks,Ramlys and other tobacco cards, and the hobby was just coming into its own during the early and mid 1970's. I will always cherish that era....I am glad you are still around...Larry Gladstone, now 44.

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11-12-2005, 11:16 AM

Posted By: Richard MassonI remember that Lew Lipset disclosed that this card was trimmed and that the fact was well known when the card first traded in a holder. It was in his Old Judge newsletter in the mid-80s. Given Copeland's thirst for high grade, I believe there are many early PSA slab jobs of trimmed cards. I have more than one T205 and T206 that rattle around in their holders.

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11-12-2005, 12:15 PM

Posted By: WPDo you think that the T206 Plank PSA 8 is similar to the Wagner???

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11-12-2005, 01:18 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackCompliment-wise, "Quite amazing to hear you are still around" about ranks up there with "You're still alive?" and "I would've guessed you're much older."

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11-12-2005, 01:23 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanSince I first made a comment on this board, I have received replies that expressed surprise that I was still alive and that I was still around. I am both. I have lived in the same home for 28 years now and am very well. Thank you.

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11-12-2005, 01:26 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe comments are no doubt due to the length of your perceived absence and not your relatively young age. Post at least once before the end of each December, and everyone will know you're still kickin'. Leon has said that if I don't post for two consective days, he'll assume I've been devoured by wolves and pay his respects to my family.

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11-12-2005, 01:46 PM

Posted By: RickWhile i have heard many times that the Wagner is possibly trimmed this is the first time i have ever heard it from a person whose credibility is above question. However ...its still mostly hearsay...there is no proof, no pictures, no one who has actually held the card in their hands. the guy who found it, Mastro and the people who has have actually own all say its fine and unaltered. Myabe Hal could upgrade his wagner and we could then know for sure.

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11-12-2005, 02:47 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI don't know and, to be serious, don't care whether or not the card is trimmed. A trading card that only corperate magnates and superstar athletes can afford doesn't excite my senses. Someone who can pay $1 mill for a card can't handle it on his own. Whether it involves a 1952 Topps and coperate interests or a 1990 Donruss and dad's paper cutter, card trimmers are losers who need to find real lives to live. To me, trimming a trading card ranks up there in the world of loserdom with putting a mirror on your shoe to look up 15 year old girls' skirts on the bus. It's not so much that I despise card trimmers and AAA paperstock cutout and private auction PRO card sellers, as I think they're pathetic. That trimming results in large profits for the owner or a corperation doesn't make it less pathetic to me. If anything, it makes it more. At least the upskirt guy wasn't doing it for money.

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11-13-2005, 07:33 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanA company puporting to be a grader or authenticater is only as good as the people doing the work. By 1980, I could tell whether a pre WWII card was authentic or trimmed just by examining it closely. Why? I had handled so many of the cards that it almost became a sixth sense. The grading services would do the hobby a real service if it hired people who really know the cards. To me, there just is no excuse for slabbing an M116, and labelling it a T206. I see quite a few names popping up in these threads. Some were notorious in the 1970's and 1980's for selling trimmed and altered cards. It's frightening to think how many trimmed E cards have been put into people's collections. Or how many N300 Mayo's have been put away whose borders were carefully marked up with markers to make them solid black. And I don't think it is a giant leap to say many of these have been given a grade by the grading services. I just don't think there are too many people to be trusted when it comes to grading and authenticating and some of those who cannot have their names come up an awful lot as experts.

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11-13-2005, 07:57 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittmisinginaction5@aol.com

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11-14-2005, 02:05 AM

Posted By: Brian C. Danielsthere is a well known and informative dealer on THIS chat board who has photos of the Wagner before the surgical procedures. Maybe at some point,he will expose and share these.

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11-14-2005, 04:11 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanYes there is.

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11-14-2005, 04:49 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)I have a question (ok, a few) - If it is proven that the McNall/Gretzky was in fact trimmed, then what does everybody think the repercussions would be? Will we see headline news being made? Will Keith Olbermann be reporting "live" from Newport Beach? How negative will it be for the hobby? How negative will it be for PSA? Will there be problems with selling graded cards? You don't have to look to far with PSA to wonder if they grade trimmed cards - look at the Harris collection... I guess it boils down to "knowing" that the cards were trimmed before they are graded and "intentionally" grading the trimmed cards. Also, do you think that they just passed the Wagner and Harris cards to their everyday average graders? Somehow, I don't think so. So now the question becomes - WHO knew about the trimming and WHO assigned the grader? Lots of questions - big topic... one that a lot of people would just like to see "go away"...

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11-14-2005, 05:49 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI say the whole thing gets swept under the carpet.

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11-14-2005, 06:05 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultzsomewhere, and soon. Seems to me the more time that passes, the greater likelihood that someone could take advantage of the whole charade by claiming things like: "It's been ____ years and someone would have stated publicly by now if it were trimmed--since they haven't, it must not be so". Not to sound overly-concerned or morbid, but those with first-hand knowledge will have their memories fade and become susceptible to being caught in inconsistencies the longer time passes--eventually they will die off and "the good evidence" will disappear. I personally don't think the hobby will suffer much if at all by the truth about the card, depending on how that truth comes out. However, if any inquiry leads to lies, cover-ups and seedy conduct, that might be a different story, at least as it reflects on those involved.

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11-14-2005, 06:14 PM

Posted By: leonThe owner, Brian Seigle (sp?), came on the old chatboard, Fullcount, and somewhat defended the card although maybe not it's condition. He made a very eloquent statement saying the card almost transcends card collecting and is at some higher level. He spoke about it in the context of bringing folks into the hobby, being a great media piece, and it being the holy grail of card collecting. He also stated that he went around to grade schools (I believe, but schools for sure) and spoke about cards and collecting which gives more publicity to the hobby....which in the long run is good. It really put the card in a little different light. He was very well spoken, said his piece, and left. regards

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11-14-2005, 06:18 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanI am not going to hame names, but the grader on Wagner was not a long time baseball card guy, but he was a long time friend of the owner from his involvement with coins. The grading services, in large part, have not sought out long time collectors or dealers. They have approached this as more of business that has very little to do with expertise.

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11-14-2005, 07:31 PM

Posted By: RickThere is a reason that they do not hire experts...they cost a lot of money. grading fees have actually come down over time and if you factor how much the actual cards have risen in value as well as inflation for the last 10 years...the price to grade and authenticate a card are dirt cheap. add increase competition and you will see how they simply can not spend the money to make third party grading as good as it could be. 3rd party grading its a neccesary tool when it comes to buying cards over the net which is how most of us buy and sell cards nowadays. Its a tool ..thats all, its not a subtitute for real knowledge. you get what you pay for.

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11-14-2005, 07:38 PM

Posted By: RickOn the wagner ...does it matter? The card is real ...wether or not it has been altered ...its all speculation. Has anyone on this board ever touch the card? ..seen it raw? where are the pictures, the proof? Nothing. PSA says its real ...and they will say so until they turn blue ...because no one wants to take the bad PR and a buyback of 1 mill + Mastro will say its real, every single previous owner will say its real. It might as well always been unaltered for practical purposes. This whole back and forth about the card simply adds to its mystery , its allure...its truly the holy grail of cards. and as such it will have its critics and none believers...hell i have seen some pretty convincing stuff about the landing of the moon conspiracy.

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11-14-2005, 08:25 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanRick--I think you are missing the point. I agree that the card brought a lot of attention to card collecting. I could say so much more, but it would only lead to argument upon argument and badmouthing. My knowledge is not speculation and I do have first hand knowledge. I'll leave it at that. I will say that those of us who collected so many years ago dug and dug and dug for cards. No amount of publicity could stop us from digging. Seeing a trimmed card become the standard against which everything is based, snd, seeing flawed grading services become so important in a very artificial way, has stopped a lot of people from digging. Cards that were once considered treasured possessions should never become just another commodity.

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11-14-2005, 08:47 PM

Posted By: RickI have a lot of respect for you and many of the old timers. Your opinion on this card holds tremendous weight on the subject. That being said ...A lot of old timers have their axes to pick with grading companies, for whatever reasons their opinions are usually negative and the wagner is the usual target. 3rd party grading its here to stay ..its far from perfect but its needed. The hobby has grown too much... Its not fair to neglet many of the good things that 3rd party grading adds to the experience of collecting. I like the ease of buying graded cards, the set registry etc.. the problem is the over reliance on graded cards, i believe collectors should study cards and become aware of trimming coloring etc.. regardless of the holder. and yes some people treat graded cards as stocks ...but not everyone, i guess that its just the way it it now...

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11-14-2005, 09:41 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisRICK I for one, and I know at least one other Forum member, have seen and held this Wagner quite a few years before it became famous. We saw this card at the Willow Grove (PA) Show in the late '80s. One of the great "happenings" of this Show would occur prior to its start. All the dealers and veteran collectors would arrive at the Motor Lodge there by noon (Fri) and some of the best BB card deals would be transacted in the rooms of the Lodge. Well, the talk of the Show that weekend was this very Wagner. Everyone was checking it out and the price on it (if memory serves me) was something like $30,000. Too rich for most of us. Furthermore, the concensus of opinion of most of us was that it appeared "trimmed". You wondered if anyone saw it in the RAW, well there are at least two who have right here. I will leave it up to the others to speak for themselves.

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11-14-2005, 09:47 PM

Posted By: Brian C. Danielsremember a New Jersey cop name Dave Dugan or a dutch guy named Tony Yordan? They did the room to room thing at ft. washington. There was also a guy named John who was a big Matty collector and an accountant for the boys scouts who suddenly died around 1993(?) or so how was in the fun as well. I bought many Matty cards and items from him.

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11-14-2005, 10:09 PM

Posted By: Ricklate 80's... then who did the trimming? who owned the card? can you tell if the card has been altered since you first saw it? If the rumors are to be believed, wasnt the card oversized by the time PSA came along? are you saying the card was short back then? was it the edges that made it look trimmed or the size?

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11-14-2005, 10:21 PM

Posted By: Anonymouswell to me it looks trimmed. look at a graded 8 card comepared to it. the wagners side borders look alittle smaller than the others i have seen. but its only my opinion..... plus it was PSA's first grading, could they have learned something from it?

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11-15-2005, 05:18 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisRick How do I know who trimmed it ? What I recall from seeing it firsthand almost 20 years ago, was that it appeared at least Excellent. I person- ally did not have chance to make any judgement whether it was trimmed or not. Others at the Show, more knowledgeable than me, made that determination after closely scrutinizing it. And, this fact I believe caused the owner (who will remain nameless here) to go back home with it. It was not the price he wanted for it, because there always are many "big $$" dealers at the Philly Show, I believe it was the suspicion of it being "trimmed" that prevented it from being sold there. You seem to be very contentious about this and also about "older" people in the hobby and our opinions of the Grading services. Well, we've been there....done that....and thank God we still have great memories to draw from. If you choose to dismiss the experiences of guys like me, that's your prerogative; but, when you start doubting the facts that guys like Bill Heitman are providing then there's no way of convincing you.

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11-15-2005, 07:10 AM

Posted By: leonI have only seen the card slabbed on numerous ocassions. However, I have spoken to several 30+ year veterans, whom I greatly respect, and are not commenting, that guarantee the card is trimmed. Pictures to prove it, though I have never seen them. With that being said I am not sure what it means to that card? I know the current owner is proud of it and does a lot for the hobby...regards edited for grammar...

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11-15-2005, 07:30 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisLEON I agree 100 % with your last sentence. I will never forget the excitement in the Auction filled room at Sotheby's when Gretzy's guy won this Wagner that day back in the early '90s in NY. It was a tremendous boost for the hobby. It reminded me when I was a kid collecting Stamps and the one-of-a-kind British Guiana stamp was bought for a similar $$ amount....$500,000.

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11-15-2005, 08:16 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThe current owner has every right to love it and be proud of it but there is the issue of disclosure that has never satisfactorily been addressed.

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11-15-2005, 01:35 PM

Posted By: jay behrensRick, I agree with Ted. You say that "old timers" have an axe to grind with grading companies and that they are unbiased about the situation. From reading your posts, you seem to have an axe to grind with "old timers" and come across as far from unbiased yourself. If the truth of this card ever comes out, it will be a major PR nightmare for PSA, but I doubt they will suffer too much form it. They can just claim that it was an honest mistake due to their overzealousness to get this card into one of their slabs. Jay If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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11-15-2005, 03:37 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanJay, my friend, "overzealousness" is both accurate and misleading. Thanks largely to the grading services, "accurate" has become a term lost to this hobby. If that's having an axe to grind, then I will gladly grind it.

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11-15-2005, 04:00 PM

Posted By: RickWithout the old timers there simply woulnt be a hobby as we know it today ...they were the pioneers and deserve much credit, Probably more than they are given. But with the internet things have changed...some have adapted and some have not. The speed at which information flows today its incredible...back in the day even if you went to all the shows and traded with as many people as you could ...it would still take you years to see all the cards that are now listed on ebay in a month. With sites like this one as well as more specialized sites you get to see and read about almost any card you wish. caramel cards, tabacco cards, cuban issues, pre war...you name it, there is a website devoted to it. some old timers have become progressive and embraced the grading services, ebay and the new grading standars of the hobby...some have not, its easy to pick apart the grading services and speak of their greed and errors. too easy. its hard to change...its hard to see your expertise being matched by someone who has been in the hobby only a few years, its hard to see a tight little group of collectors be diluted with tons of new collectors, speculators and investors. 3rd party grading has as many evils as it has goods...

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11-15-2005, 04:08 PM

Posted By: Michael CampbellI'm just curious as to the exact definition of an old timer?

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11-15-2005, 04:14 PM

Posted By: JudgeDred2 (Fred)If you were the stop watch in the clockers hands when Jesse Owens ran in world record time - you're an old timer....

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11-15-2005, 04:53 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackFor baseball players, my working definition of 'old timer' is if you are invited to play in an old timers game or casual game of retired players, you're an old timer. For hobbyists, if you are asked to tell about the way the hobby used to be, you're an old timer. As with children graduates from Yale and female figure skaters, someone like Zach will probably be an old timer at age 25.

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11-15-2005, 04:59 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanAre you an old timer? Were you on Wirt Gammon's Christmas card list? Were you on Jefferson Burdick's Christmas card list? Do you fondly remember the time before there were card shows? Did you receive the "Monthly Card Collector's Bulletin" when it was published by Burdick, or, even later by Bray? Did you call Buck Barker "Buck"? Did you buy from Larry Fritsch while he was still in college? Ever had cards lost you mailed to him? And not heard about it for more than a year? Did you buy the First Edition of the American Card Catalog? Do you still have it? Did you buy penny packs of cards? Or even nickel packs? Do you still have those cards? Can you spot a trimmed T206 Wagner, even if it's been graded by one of these newfangled grading services? Did you ever discuss with Frank Nagy his "about mint" grade? I can think of a lot more. The finals one is--do you even know what I'm talking about?

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11-15-2005, 05:01 PM

Posted By: Al Crisafulli"Thanks largely to the grading services, "accurate" has become a term lost to this hobby." With all due respect, I think this is an unbelievably unfair statement. I will be the first to admit that some grading services could be better-versed in obscure issues, and there are occasional examples of what can be perceived as a lapse in ethics (or at least in quality control). However, in my opinion, the true lack of accuracy in this hobby happened BEFORE third party grading. Doesn't anybody remember the unbelievable disparities between cards that were described as "MINT", or "NEAR MINT"? Doesn't anybody recall buying cards described as "mint" and getting a horribly off-centered card, or a card with rounded corners? I can't even count how many times I was told "for a 50-year-old card, that's in mint condition." Grading companies, in my opinion, have been OUTSTANDING for the hobby, because they introduce an element of accountability and accuracy that was never there before. When I buy a raw card that's described as near mint, I never really know what I'm going to get. When it's described as PSA 7, or SGC 84, I have a reasonable idea of what to expect, and glaring inconsistencies are the exception, not the rule. This doesn't even take into account the issue of authentication. I can identify an authentic 1938 Goudey from two yards away, but I wouldn't know how to spot a fake 1952 Mantle. What if I want to buy one for my Hall of Fame collection? You can bet I'll be buying it in a slab. I've been reading this thread intently each day now. I find the commentary on the Wagner to be incredibly interesting, shedding the brightest light I've seen yet on an issue that we've all speculated about. The first-hand knowledge of that card presented in this thread is an incredible read. By contrast, the comments on the grading industry read more like sour grapes from someone with an axe to grind. -Al

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11-15-2005, 05:16 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI've been in the hobby 23 years myself and feel like an old-timer, and I too remember a simpler and more enjoyable time. But it's a fact that the world changes, and the hobby of collecting baseball cards has changed in step with everything else. I may have preferred it twenty years ago, but I fully understand that it will never be like that again. And I am also resigned to the fact that the Beatles will never reunite for a concert. That is what change is all about.

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11-15-2005, 05:37 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisI will admit I am an "Old Timer" and I am proud of it. And, furthermore I do have an "axe to grind" regarding card grading. (1) This happened to me in Philly. I submitted a really crisp 1949 Stan Musial card to PSA. They rejected it for "evidence of trim". After a nasty exchange of words with them, I walked it over to SGC. SGC graded it with a whopping "88" grade. You figure it, I can't....it's an arbitrary process. (2) I don't think even a trained eye can tell the difference between a card graded with an 8, 9, or even a 10. Yet, the difference in price is an order of magnitude greater for each additional grade. For example....a given card grade 8 is $1000....grade 9 = $10,000....grade 10 = $100,000. I would never be crazy enough to pay these prices for what is so incrementally insignifi- cant a difference Our hobby has been taken over by the old Coin Grading "artists"; and, we all know what they did to that hobby. But, mind you it did not occur overnite.

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11-15-2005, 05:38 PM

Posted By: warshawlawIf they didn't accept SNL's $3000 offer to reunite, you know the Beatles never would do it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-15-2005, 05:48 PM

Posted By: barrysloateYes, but that's because Lorne Michaels told them to give less to Ringo.

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11-15-2005, 06:04 PM

Posted By: SteveI should probably not do this but I also agree with the old-timers. The grading services have changed the business and is not all negative. Of course people overgraded cards (and continue) to as grading is inherently subjective and an art and not a science. My request is simply for consistency, which is of course a regular board topic about the different grading companies. I think the grading companies have encouraged the collecting of some unusual issues, especially by ebay buyers, as people would be afraid to buy more obscure and advaned issues on their own. On the other hand.. In the past, almost no one cared about writing, especially minor writing, on a blank back card. Apparently now this makes the card Poor or Fair. A tiny scrape on the back of a card makes it Good or Fair or VG when in the past it may have been Ex or even higher. Good or bad, cannot make that judgment... I should also acknowledge some level of hypocrisy as I (like everyone else) do submit cards for grading. I do not alter my cards and nothing I submit has been doctored. My big problem is when I see graded card dealers buy Ex 5 1933 Goudey Ruths for $10,000 or centered 7s for 1 1/2 to 3x SMR. It seems like the pre-war cards literally become sharper every six months. I would like the fellow old timers to comment on whether they think a large number of doctored vintage cards are being graded on a fairly regular basis by all of the major companies. I am not trying to stir up any trouble here just stimulated by this very lively thread - Steve

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11-15-2005, 07:42 PM

Posted By: RickI wish I could have met Burdick and Nagy ...I really do. But the fact that i didnt does not make me a less passionate collector. Just because i like grading companies does not make me an investor. The hobby has evolved, information that was once held in the brains of a few are now everywhere, grading stantdars are universal because of grading companies. these are good things.

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11-15-2005, 09:19 PM

Posted By: LarryI have been pretty active as collector & dealer since early 1970's, I grew up with Rob Lifson, Don Lepore, Bill Mastro, Don Steinbach, Paul Gallagher, George Lyons, Barry Halper, TTS, SCD, Frank Nagy,Elliot Dock, Rob Bruce, Bill Heitman,Pat Quinn etc..all names from the past and some still around.. It was a great era, we all made money, we all had fun and we all loved cards. The above threads touch many avenues that have evolved since the "early days" and the hobby was always filled with great moments and rude awakenings, as is still the case. Even with the hypocrisy, it still is a great hobby and a good source of income for some, a good investment for others, and just plain fun for many. I myself have become a hybrid product of the old school and found the new school of grading important...we need them for all the good and bad... but as Bill Heitman stated, they make mistakes and it is subjective. As another poster stated, there was a time when some dealers felt a mint card was a card that was minted once but could be off center, have a small pen mark etc., that was a problem. Even in coins, I would buy a MS65 coin(they called it Gem BU) and would sell it back to same dealer and they would say it was AU(MS 55) coin so it became imperative to have some boundaries inn coins and cards so that collectors and dealers had reasonably common ground, all 3 major services do provide that service to some extent. I especially feel that slabbing is much better than Den Collectors Den sheets or screw downs, they protect the card longterm, add some preservation and keep card airtight for the most part. The most important thing is that "old and new timers" should recognize that cards are a represenation of history that we all hopefully respect and admire, it should be noted that collectors and dealers like Bill Heitman, John Rumierz, Jay Barry, Fritsch, Lipset, Lifson, Mastro, etc., even a smaller extent myself, have YEARS behind us, experience teaches us and that does mean something...yet we are never too smart to learn more, I realized this last few years how much I did not know and hopefully became better for it.. The actual baseball cards do represent a great piece of historical significance, so does The Baseball Card Collecting and Dealing, for all its good, bad and the ugly. The T206 Wagner mystery still does not rank with the JFK assasination but it still has the same intrigue....but the actual importance is that we are a stronger hobby if we respect the past and present and look hopefully toward the future.

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11-15-2005, 09:23 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanI don't want anyone to think that I believe Old Timers are the only collectors who are passionate about collecting. Heck, I've known some really Old Timers who were anything but passionate about collecting. And it is clear to me that there are many who are not Old Timers who are very passionate about collecting and very knowledgeable as well. Time produces experience and knowledge. In the age we live in, it would seem a lot easier to gather information which can provide valuable knowledge to everyone. I've known plenty of Old Timers who were just terrible at grading cards; but, that didn't matter too much because if they sold a card, or traded it, it was always on approval if through the mail or it occurred in person. When I was auctioning a lot, I never hesititated to refund someone their money if, after they actually received the card, they disagreed with my grading or even if they just decided they didn't like the card. Taking part in these discussions has lead me to go try and find a whole lot of material that I've put away. Last night I found one binder with about 10 years worth of the Monthly Card Collector's Bulletins, first published by Burdick and later by Bray. That binder covered the time period when Burdick was getting out of it and Bray was taking over. That was fun to look at. While I will not assume that someone who is not an Old Timer can't possibly know what they're talking about, please don't assume that every Old Timer is just some old guy with an axe to grind.

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11-15-2005, 09:24 PM

Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)....a given card grade 8 is $1000....grade 9 = $10,000....grade 10 = $100,000. I would never be crazy enough to pay these prices for what is so incrementally insignificant a difference Our hobby has been taken over by the old Coin Grading "artists"; and, we all know what they did to that hobby. But, mind you it did not occur overnite. Nice summary Ted!

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11-15-2005, 10:14 PM

Posted By: DJTed hit it on the head! That's all I will say. DJ

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11-15-2005, 10:37 PM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliI never used the term "old timer". I don't know if I'm an "old timer" or not - I've been collecting since 1976, but took a few years off after being turned off by shiny stuff. There absolutely is a tangible difference between an 8 and a 9. I'm not sure I can always say the same about the difference between a 9 and a 10, but that's just me. However, for most issues, my personal preference is to keep my collections at the 7 level and below, because PERSONALLY, I don't have the stomach to pony up the kind of incremental cash that Ted refers to in his post. However, I also recognize that there are others who want what they perceive to be the best cards available, and I'm not about to begrudge them the right to collect any way they choose. I'm certainly not about to indict the grading industry because of it. The grading industry thrives because there is a need for it. Period. Some may choose not to embrace it - a big percentage of my collection remains raw as well - but it isn't going anywhere, and it has far-reaching benefits for the hobby. Those benefits are recognized by people all over this board who choose to keep their collections raw, but ship everything else off to an evil grading company prior to selling. Indeed I have also had cards returned as trimmed, only to have them grade later. One of the inconsistencies of having human beings interpret what they see, I suppose. Still, this is the exception and not the rule, and I refuse to indict an industry based on exceptions. Sorry if I'm against the grain on this one, -Al

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11-15-2005, 10:42 PM

Posted By: RickI have a great deal of respect for those before who did great research and had an incredible passion for cards when they were not worth the price of a car. Without the cataloging of the cards, the constant search for hard to find issues etc...the information we have today might not exist. However...I do not like how some old timers belittle some newer collectors simply because they were not there when it started, when it was "pure" Its always the same thing...they dont like PSA, SGC..but ask them why...its because they cant grade a card they way they please anymore.. they can buy and sell cards using their "when you sell its gold when you buy its crap" line that created the demand for universal grading. I enjoy the hobby very much ...The one now with graded cards, the crappy shiny stuff ebay the whole thing. I love reading this board and the PSA boards...thats fun to me. This is how i learn, not quite as sending letters to Burdick ...but pretty good in its own way. It seems to me that the old timers choose what to remember from the past at times...there was a reason why grading companies were created...there was a demand from collectors. Some old timers have become gators..some will die as hobby dinosours.

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11-16-2005, 04:54 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWe are going through a generational change in our hobby specifically and in America at large. The baby boomers, one of the most culturally influential groups in American history, really got this whole hobby cooking in the 1980's. We are getting older now and next year the first official group of boomers turns sixty. As a result, many of us are getting out of the hobby and passing the torch to the next generation. There is nothing wrong with this and it is the natural order of things. I think today's generation collects a little differently than we did, and they are faced with the unfortunate reality that everything is so darn expensive, but that's just the way it is. One day years down the road all the boomers will be long gone but the cards we collected will still be here. It's important to recognize that change is inevitable.

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11-16-2005, 06:15 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisDon't pass us the stupid torch... pass us all of your freakin' CARDS!!!!!!!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> PS - No way the Beatles ever reunite without the permission of Clarence, the 5th Beatle.

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11-16-2005, 07:14 AM

Posted By: Michael CampbellYes, Mr. Heitman, I do know absolutely everything you mentioned. And all names mentioned. One can have such knowledge and still not be an old timer. There are many people in this hobby that fly under the radar. I know an individual in California who has millions of dollars worth of grade 8's and 9's, pre war, that no one on the forum would know. But for the record, I am not an old timer. I have been collecting cards since I was 5, and starting buying pre war in 1991. I guess I am borderline.

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11-16-2005, 07:15 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAnd you thought I didn't know that Clarence was Eddie Murphy?

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11-16-2005, 07:36 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisRick Your....."Some old timers have become gators..some will die as hobby dinsours" That's real "cool" talk....can you name these gators and dinosaurs in this hobby ? Come on now, you made this statement....NAME THEM ? And, you are wrong....collectors did not "demand" any Grading Service. It started in early '90s, as people who screwed-up the Coin Hobby infil- trated this hobby. At first, Grading of BB cards was reluctantly received by many, young and old. The turning point for Grading BB cards was the advent of Ebay; and, for obvious reasons it became much more widely accepted.

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11-16-2005, 08:09 AM

Posted By: warshawlawThe rose-colored glasses slip on every now and then around here and we all look back to the days of cheap cards and cameraderie...and it is selective memory at its best. The card "market" has always been driven by the same elements; they just used to be smaller money elements. I've been seriously into cards for 28 years (I consider running dealer tables regularly at shows in 1978 to qualify me as an "Old Timer" even if I was only 12-13 at the time) and the rivalry and competition for good cards has never been absent. The borderline personalities have always been there too. We just have a more sophisticated marketplace with lots more information and opportunities for communications today. The supply-demand-desire-behavior issues are the same as they ever were. We've hashed and re-hashed the slabbing issue around here. Some people are never going to accept a third party opinion system, no matter what its merits. Some "old timers" have their own ideas about grading that don't comport with the slabbers' ideas and feel that their inventory and/or collections have been devalued as a result. Some people have been burned by that system and justifiably want no part of it. Some people have been helped by it and support it. Regardless of where you fall in the spectrum, the market for vintage cards is firmly in favor of the slabbing concept; the numbers prove it. All of the high-priced vintage cards that attract our attention of late (Baltimore Ruth, T210 Jackson, CJ Jackson, T206 Wagner, etc.) have been sold slabbed. That in and of itself speaks volumes. Those of you who can and would plunk down five or six figures for a card can answer this one (cause I sure ain't one of you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>): would you do it if the card was not guaranteed to slab or already slabbed? The truth, regardless of acceptance of it, is that anyone holding prewar cards purchased more than a few years ago has been helped immensely by the third party grading concept. The slabbers have driven a lot of the price growth we've seen. I don't think that's bad or good in and of itself. Both positions have merit. I LIKE having an endless auction on Ebay, big National shows, devoted publications, and not being made fun of by my peers for collecting cards, none of which would be where it is today without slabbing. I DISLIKE how much the cards I like cost, how many crooks and scamsters are drawn into the business and how much buying, selling and trading them is like handling a stock portfolio. Not much to be done about any of it, though. Technology marches on, the market has its own force, and not even the continuing saga of sleaze emanating from PSA will dampen things for long. The folks decrying the rot of the business from slabbing and big money are a bit too Luddite for me; the folks buying plastic and not cards too dumbed down for me. There is a compromise in the middle, which most people strike pretty well. I guess what I am long-windedly trying say as an Old Timer and a current collector is that I share the pain of my fellow travelers from the good old days who miss the ability to collect it all if only it can be found and feel the frustrations of the forward-looking nouveau collectors when being chided with tales of the good old days. The old days of card collecting are gone and are not coming back unless there is another Great Depression (and none of us want that). Accept it and move on, fellow old farts. But you young whippersnappers, show some respect, you might learn something <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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11-16-2005, 08:12 AM

Posted By: Al Crisafulli"At first, Grading of BB cards was reluctantly received by many, young and old." Of COURSE it was. Suddenly, a lot of people's Near Mint cards were now EX cards. That made people's collections less valuable than they thought, and it made selling prices lower than dealers would have liked. It didn't take long, however, for many people to see the benefits that grading offered. Virtually any new industry is reluctantly accepted. Grading, in my opinion, has brought people into the hobby. It has established standards for judging a card's condition. And in a lot of cases, it has helped inject a lot of cash into the hobby. And I agree - it made it a lot easier to buy cards on Ebay. Before Ebay, it might take the average collector a lifetime to complete a 1933 Goudey set. Now, with enough cash, you could probably do it in a few weeks (except the Lajoie). The downside of this is that you're taking a risk that cards are not accurately described. By buying the cards in a slab, you minimize that risk. I can understand a person choosing not to have graded cards in their collection - even buying slabbed cards for their personal collections and cracking them out. But I cannot understand, after the industry is firmly established and has been that way for five to ten years, rejecting the concept outright and implying that it's bad for the hobby. Sentiments like that fly in the face of everything we see, every single day, as people buy, sell, and build their collections. -Al

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11-16-2005, 08:47 AM

Posted By: LarryThe last posting above mine hit it on the nail.... There are many of us oldtimers that have come around to accept the concept of grading and it has added many collectors and collections to the hobby, it has legitimized the dealers that were overgraders and has also made some people wary. This is not to say that grading is a cure all or does not have its errors and this does not change the fact that there are many of us that know how to grade and always did, I agree with an earlier poster that a near mint front with a blank back that has a small initial or pen mark on reverse should not be down graded to a 2, that is ridiculous and SGC is EXTREMELY conservative when it comes to miniscule problems yet centering they are more lenient with, PSA is totally inconsistant and GAI makes some errors but all three are necessary to the hobby to preserve the integrity of rare cards and create demand. Bottom Line, those that do not accept grading are living in the past, even if tehy are partially correct about the ridiculous variances between grades and the fact that SMR is a joke... but I respect those "oldtimers" that have knowledge and integrity, they were and still are important to the hobby. Mr. Sloate really nailed it, we are passing the torch(and someday the cards) to future generations and they will accept these "values" we put on cards only if there is a demand, if my daughter fails to learn who Joe DiMaggio or Mickey mantle was, then someday their cards graded or ungraded will have no value to all of us oldtimers and newtimers, collectors and dealers better fess up to the fact that we need to pass the torch to the current generations, even if it is for selfish reasons partly.

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11-16-2005, 10:24 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIn the early years of grading I was one of those most vehemently against it; today I send everything out to be slabbed. If I didn't, I might as well close shop. You have to change with the times. Not always easy, as in some ways I'm still a hippie living in the 60's, but in business you can't be a dinosaur.

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11-16-2005, 04:30 PM

Posted By: WPThere is one reason major reason for the success of grading companies. The consumer demanded it and the cards brought premiums over unslabbed cards. This began before the advent of ebay it started in 1994 and 1995 and was highlighted by the sale of the D. Hall collection. Whether or not pieces of the collection were altered and overgraded is a topic for another day.

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11-16-2005, 06:01 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanI am very reluctantly weighing in on this thread once again. Rick's posting which refers to "old timers" as gators and/or dinosauers is just too insulting. It also demonstrates too much ignorance to ignore. Grading services began to appear in this hobby without any demand from collectors. I am also a coin collector and watched that hobby become the province of people who knew nothing of coins but had money to throw around. Card grading services came from these very same people. It was a very small number of dealers(many of whom had close ties to coin grading companies) who brought it about. They thought that they could profit by slabbing cards in the same fashion as coins. How? It would bring the investors in. That, by the way, is why a card that everyone knew was trimmed actually got graded. The eBaying of America has now seemed to legitimize the card grading services. WHOA!!!!! An M116 slabbed as a T206? This is hardly an argument in favor of just plain honesty in collecting. I believe that a third party grading service would be wonderful for this hobby if it really was a knowledgeable service. The grading services out there have proven themselves to be unreliable so far, and this was the very objection we dinosaurs had of them when they first popped up. The people who ran them, and participated with them, were not card collecting people--they were people who knew nothing about cards and card collecting, but they were people who saw a buck and went after it. And just like the "dumbing of America", we've seen a dumbing of card collecting. I think population reports are wonderful, but why would you think that a population report of just the cards submitted for grading is adequate? In other words, is slabbing cards the only way to learn? Do you really want to rely on a bunch of people who don't know an M116 from a T206? Is that what collecting is to you? Have these people who were trying to sell you that crap actually succeeded? I am very mindful that things have changed and probably changed forever. As electing George W. Bush proved, they haven't necessarily changed for the better. And it also doesn't mean that we can't change them for the better. The few grading services out there have proven to be great for investors and, so far, just awful for COLLECTORS. One small example--Jackson, New Orleans has been on the T210 checklist for at least 45 years--but the hobby only seems to have noticed it when one was submitted for grading. You guys are starting to believe what the grading services want you to believe. And that is that they are the sole source of knowledge and truth in this hobby and that it all began with them. We dinosaurs will attest that the grading services, as they are run today, were a product of profit motive and not card collecting. GOOD NIGHT . . . and . . . GOOD LUCK

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11-16-2005, 06:14 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanThanks, Ted. I don't know of one collector who stood up and shouted--GIVE ME A GRADING SERVICE!!!!

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11-16-2005, 06:24 PM

Posted By: WPThis would be a good time for Davallilo to jump in.

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11-16-2005, 07:34 PM

Posted By: AnonymousRick, I guess I must be too much of a youngster but I am suprised anyone would find your analogy between the gator and dinosaur offensive. I for one do not long for the old days with limited availability and grading all over the board. Adam B

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11-16-2005, 07:37 PM

Posted By: RickI apologize for the "Hobby dinosour" line. It was stupid and after all we are here because we love cards... Again i am sorry ...and i wish i kept a couple of comments to myself. Its a wonderful hobby ...even when its not perfect.

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11-16-2005, 07:39 PM

Posted By: William HeitmanHow available are $15,000 plus cards to you, Adam?

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11-16-2005, 08:15 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanNobody begged for a grading service; enterprising people saw an opportunity and took it. And it caught on. I don't think anyone entered this hobby hoping to buy graded cards. I know I didn't; in fact, I only bought my first graded card two years ago or so. After putting together a 1958 Topps set, card by card, ungraded, all in cards purchased on ebay advertised as Near Mint, I came to realize that 90% of the dealers, reputable ones included, lied about the grades of their cards. It was a joke. So, instead of continuing to throw out money, I started buying PSA, SGC and GAI graded cards. This reduced the possibility of getting robbed. And even if the stray trimmed card ends up in a slabbed holder with a grade on it, my investment is protected. End of story.

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11-16-2005, 08:38 PM

Posted By: DJI have enjoyed the progression of this thread from PSA/DNA's lawsuit to the "Honus" accounts to labeling those who came before us "dinosaurs". Been collecting 25+ years, not offended. I guess all of us "Old Timers" should be in a Baseball Card retirement home of some sorts eagerly awaiting "Matlock" and "Bingo Macaroni Afternoon" as the "Plastic Generation" enjoys their sufficoted cardboard. I for one dislike the idea of grading but have embraced it to a certain degree. With so much criminal activity out there, it sure eases the mind of the new collectors. Sure the new collectors can't tell he difference between a 7,8 or 9 and sometimes purchase the holder and the registry report but to quote hockey goon Todd Bertuzzi: "It is what it is". It's all about the "now". Time moves only forward and grading is here to stay. I must admit that I was late in life to embrace technology, especially computers as a manila folder did just as adequate of a job all these years. It's not only Grading card companies but the whole current time that has changed. Computers. Ebay. Trusted auction houses. More millionaires than ever. A way to diversify in a time of Economic paranoia (cough- Enron...Tyco). So if you want to pay 9000% more because it's the only 9 the grading card has ever seen, more power to ya! My two cents... DJ

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11-17-2005, 12:12 AM

Posted By: jay behrensRick, it's true that anyone can ganer a wealth of card knowledge in a short period of time in this day and age, but there is nothing can replace the handling of 10s of thousands, if not 100s of thousands of cards. All the book knowledge in the world about cards isn't going to help you when you finally get your hands on a G&B, Yum Yum or some other rare issue. Being able to handle and see the cards from a source you know to be legit is the only way to really become knowledgable about the cards you collect. Jay If you can sue a band for making you want to commit suicide, can I sue Barry Manilow for turning me into a wuss in the 70s?

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11-17-2005, 09:05 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellWP-"It would be a good time for Davalillo to jump in." Okay--still thawing out after enduring a 5-inch snowstorm in Des Moines. There is an enormous amount to learn from "old-timers" and my knowledge of vintage cards is but a small fraction of many people on this board.I especially enjoy the comments of Mr. Heitman but I know for a fact that he and Jeff Lichtman are wrong when they say "I don't know of one collector who stood up and shouted 'give me a grading service' nor "grading services began to appear in this hobby without any demand from collectors" or "nobody begged for a grading service" Meet that guy. I demanded it and I'm not the only one. Jeff-- I couldn't agree more when you say "90% of the dealers lied about the condition of their cards". You never knew what you were buying if you bought by mail. In addition, there was this burgeoning problem of card alteration. Back in late 1980s-early 1990s, I bought a fair amount of expensive ungraded cards. After buying them, I measured them and found several measured short. I showed these cards to various "experts" and for almost all the cards I had suspicions on the opinions were very divided. Card alteration got to be so bad that I made up my mind I would not buy any cards unless they were graded. I know of several substantial graded card collectors who felt similarly. Collectors completely lost confidence in the ungraded vintage card market. I can remember Superior Sportscards last ungraded sportscard aucttion. A significant number of cards did not receive bids--those that did were in many cases low. Greg called me the next morning and offered me several cards incl a Diamond Star #108 in nrmt-mt at min. bid. What caused me to demand card grading to paraphrase Mr. Heitman's words was that when I ultimately sent in these cards to PSA for grading many came back trimmed or altered in some way. Now I know that card grading cos are not perfect and that many altered cards have slipped into graded card company holders but grading has attracted an enormous number of new players into the hobby--many of whom have thrown millions into the hobby. Grading is the here and now and the future of the hobby. Jim

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11-17-2005, 09:17 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliAttaboy, Jim. -Al

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11-17-2005, 09:41 AM

Posted By: ChrisI agree with Jim. I would get so frustrated with cards being misrepresented when I would buy them. Dealers would buy VG cards and sell them as VG-EX or EX. You may be taking a chance on a graded card not being what it is "advertised" to be but IMO you are taking a bigger chance with ungraded. The % of altered cards in slabs is much less than the % of over graded or altered raw cards.

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11-17-2005, 09:53 AM

Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)Jim, Yes, it appears that grading is here to stay. Yes, we've all found out that the grading services (including the most trusted) are not infallible. Yes, grading services do, for the most part, a good job. I don't mind grading services but like a lot of people have mentioned, "a person should buy the card - not the holder" A good point that has been brought up is that incremental steps in grading can cause people to "buy the holder". I've seen (I'm pretty sure we've all seen) that there are 6's better than 7' and 7's better than 8's, etc. The price of lower grade material goes up with the price of the higher grade material (not nearly as much, but it does increase). All this because people get so caught up in the grades and will pay what ever price if the holder indicates a particular grade being amassed by a collector. For a collector of limited means that can be frustrating. I'm happy collecting lower grade, mid-grade and high grade material. It all boils down to the price being right and reasonable. I wouldn't judge anyone by what they collect (high grade material based on the holder's label) but I certainly believe that blindly giving into a label indication is an odd way to base a purchase and collect cards. I can already see the responses coming - yup, there are those that can collect this way because they have great resources and the impact of a higher price isn't a consideration to them as much as it is to others. Like I've said in the past, I'll be one of the happiest collectos out there if the escalating price increases come to a grinding halt and prices drop immensely due to any reason (sadly bad economic conditions are included). What exactly is my point? blah, blah, blah.... I had a few minutes to kill before a conference call... I'll re-read it later and then edit (delete)... blah, blah. blah... we've all heard it before and I get the feeling we'll all hear it again... Pont - Grading services here to stay - Grading services basically good - Collectors should buy card, not holder (label)...

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11-17-2005, 10:05 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliNo doubt. Buy the card, not the holder. The MAIN issue that people tend to have with grading services is the fact that there is a list of guidelines that cause a card to drop down a grade. Glue on the back of a card. A tiny bit of writing. A virtually invisible surface wrinkle. If you're buying the card and not the holder, perhaps this doesn't bother you as much. Example: Three cards I'm very happy with, all with a wide disparity in grade. A very nice 8, with a little bit of toning. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1132250556.JPG"> One of the sharpest 5s I've ever seen, with miniscule surface wrinkle that is visible only in certain light. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1132250545.JPG"> THE sharpest 3 I've ever seen, with a roller line across it that dropped the grade. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1132250523.JPG"> Three beautiful cards, three different grades. I don't necessarily agree that the York is a 3 or the Owen is a 5, but that's what the grades are, using their technical definitions. I bought the cards, and they're all beautiful. -Al

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11-17-2005, 07:06 PM

Posted By: AnonymousWilliam, I guess $15,000 cards are not available to me at all as they are multiple orders of magnitude past my top spending range. I remember buying raw cards on the Prodigy message boards (before grading took off) and although I had some good experiences I also had some ones that soured me a bit. The selection at local shops is typically limited and making the jump from modern to vintage through shops or shows can be intimidating for someone who is just starting out (not to mention those expensive mistakes that I would imagine most folks make along the way). I've been in and out of the hobby several times and one of the things that got me into vintage was the sheer variety of items made available on the internet and the presence of professional grading standards. I buy both raw and graded and personally find that the grading services are reasonably consistent. Obviously there are mistakes made, as many around here like to point out, but I believe they account for a relatively small number of total cards graded. Granted, I am not buying high grade/high dollar items but it is nice to purchase a PSA 3 or SGC 40 card and have a reasonable idea as to condition (not to mention a level of protection from the holder). Does this add to the cost of the hobby and benefit the card investors; I would imagine yes. Has it opened up the hobby to more people and provided some base-line level of grading standards for collectors to reference; in my opinion yes. Adam B

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11-20-2005, 02:21 AM

Posted By: William HeitmanThe first article of mine that was published in The Trader Speaks some 30 years ago was on grading cards. I called for a standardized system of grading and made suggestions as to what I thought it should be. I have no doubt that the grading services are a step in the right direction. Two areas, though, that are inherent to any grading system would be the questions of authenticity and issues like trimming cards. Saying that a card is "authentic" is not the same as saying that it is in original shape. If a card has been played with, it should not be "graded." During the '70's a horrifying number of trimmed cards were thrust into collectors' hands by some overzealous, and less than honest, young dealers, who may not have known better, but should have. It was, in fact, common for these dealers to trim cards to achieve sharp corners, which were, at the time one of the prime things people looked at on cards. It was very common for these dealers to alter a vg card into an ex-mt looking card by trimming just a little off of the borders. Just about everyone knew that the McNall T206 Wagner was trimmed, even the guy who did the grading, and knew that it shouldn't have received a grade at all. Bruce McNall made his "fortune" as a coin dealer and sold a lot through mail order. He knew the value of slabbing that card. We have all known people who believe something to be true just because they've heard it said to be true over and over. Well that slabbed card makes a perpetual statement of truth, but it isn't true. I have collected coins just as long as I have collected cards. I loved both. Sometimes coin dealers submit the same coin for grading to the same grading services over and over, just hoping to get the card graded higher than it really should be. I once bought a slabbed 1909S VDB Lincoln penny from a dealer that was graded Red MS65 who stated to me "don't ever remove that coin--it'll never get the 'red' designation a second time." While I certainly believe standardized grading is essential to this hobby, I thought it should benefit collectors greatly, and not just seem to be a vehicle to bring in investors.

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11-20-2005, 07:46 AM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldThis thread has gone from the interesting "10.5 mil", to the very interesting "not 10.5 mil but really about 14k", and on to the fantastic, the history of the Gretzky-McNall card. That is what I want to read!!!! And I like seeing people talk about The Trader Speaks, and Mr. Burdick, Mr. Bray, and Mr. Nagy.... I love the history of the hobby, wish someone would do a book about it. Get down an oral history of how things were from Mr. Heitman and others, soon. Long live the old timers! But I am about worn out with grading talk... I used to NEVER buy graded cards. Then I broke down and bought one. Since then I've bought several. And that is why the good lord gave us hacksaws, to liberate these innocent little fellows who don't deserve a plastic tomb. And with shame, I've now had 3 cards graded and sold... because they would sell for MUCH more if graded. Partly because the collectors are no longer dealing face to face, and how do you know if it's real?? Partly because some collectors with more money than sense can't be bothered to learn about discerning the authenticity of a card. It still tickles me to look at T206s spread on a table, and I point out the 2 American Beauty cards to a surprised dealer who doesn't know that the cigarettes were smaller diameter so the package was smaller so the cards were factory "slendered" (ha, thought I was going to use that "T" word, didn't you!) And I guess some folks just want to collect slabbed cards. For me, I'll keep my hacksaw. And I hope whoever bought my 3 Old Judges use a hacksaw, too.