I would like some opinions. [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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11-06-2005, 09:20 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanEdited: I have removed this post as I believe my point was heard and opinions were given. The point was to garner some knowledge not to attack anyone else. I still have the full post and will gladly send it to anyone who feels they need to read it. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-06-2005, 09:29 PM

Posted By: pete ullmanit sounds like you're having buyers remorse. you should have all necessary information prior to entering a transaction or you're at risk of being taken for a ride. we've all been ripped off in our lives and it sucks...but ultimately if we do...it's usually our fault. it doesn't sound like he was trying to rip you off. everybody has different perceptions of what their cards are worth...especially these days with the superinflated prices and perceptions of scarcity, etc. whether the card was sold or not...i don't think anything compensation is or would have been owed. in the long run I'd probably rather have the gandil...much nicer card. pete in mn

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11-06-2005, 09:32 PM

Posted By: FYSI guess the only real question of integrity is whether or not Esposito really had $700 into the card? If he really only had $550 into the card does that make him unethical? How many dealers are 100% honest when explaining how much they have into a card? A dealer could consider business burden into the price of each card i.e. buy price = $550 + $10 for shipping/insurance + 30% of cost to cover overheads (advertising, tables, travel expenses etc.). So depending on the individuals cost calculation, that skews things a bit. In my business, I have a set burden rate for overheads of about 15% of total sales. This means that I have to add 15% to my raw costs just to break even i.e. 20% gross margin = 5% net margin. In any case, this may sound harsh, but you are pretty harsh your self at times. Know what the hell you are doing before you drop $700.

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11-06-2005, 09:35 PM

Posted By: MWCan you post an image of both cards?

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11-06-2005, 09:44 PM

Posted By: Rickwhat a long post ...

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11-06-2005, 10:12 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognara W514 in great shape is just a strip card in great shape. I never got the CJ Gandil, because i never saw one when I had the money to buy one (and I saw very few). Horizontal--nice card, but in great shape, (graded or ungraded?) could be worth what he charged you. Regardless, you PAID what he asked, and he owes you nothing! If he'd wanted the Cracker Jack Gandil, he wouldn't have traded it to you (plus you had to give him $100) On the surface, it sounds like a whole heap to pay for a CJ Gandil, but if it's a real nice card, you know, the sky's the limit. Any lesson you learned from that transaction can only be applied to the NEXT transaction... I, too, would rather have the CJ Gandil... Edited to correct stupidity.

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11-06-2005, 10:13 PM

Posted By: Joe K.Ted- I think you answered your own question already. 1. “(YES STUPID OF ME)” 2. "After returning home…doing a little research”. Do research before hand and know what you are doing before you hit the "high wire". This is the “Big Top”. There are no “safety nets” and no do-overs. If Burns really felt you were a Sucker, and that his Gandil was valued significantly less than your Jackson, he probably would have taken you up originally on the straight-up trade without the extra $100 cash. Trust your instincts and walk away if you feel it is too much, else don’t have buyers remorse when you pay too much. Seems like you knew (in your gut) Esposito was high and Burns was high.. yet you made both mistakes. Esposito didn’t dupe you. Burns may have, but it happens to all of us a lot, and the best thing to do is to learn for the next time you are in a similar situation. I kick myself all the time for doing similar things…I just hope I learn from it. -Joe K.

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11-06-2005, 10:15 PM

Posted By: AnthonyTed- FWIW I paid $789. for a '15 CJ Gandil 7 earlier this year off ebay. In general I avoid buying cards at shows or last minute at auctions unless I know what the card is worth, what it has sold for recently (if possible) and especially how often it comes up. With all due respect, having been burned twice (in your opinion) perhaps stepping back a bit and slowing down might be a good game plan. I've found a shelf full of Mastro and REA catalogs to be an invaluable research tool. You still got a great deal on the CJ Comiskey!

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11-06-2005, 10:15 PM

Posted By: al davisyou made a couple of bad deals, but you don't have anyone to blame but yourself. i assume you weren't drunk and no one had a gun to your head. lack of information was your biggest problem. a dealer can ask for any price he wants......nothing wrong with that. if you don't agree, just move on.

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11-06-2005, 10:21 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanThank you gentleman and julie, i don't have a scan of the gandil yet, the jackson is here: <img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/cards/w514_jackson.jpg"> Once again, as i said, Joe Esposito did not rip me off. He was honest and fair. I presented him with an opportunity at one point and the result was fair, and straight up. I wasn't "happy" with it. But i respected his decision. Also, to make a point again..JOE was fine. I respect joe. Yes you're right about research, it is something i respect, maybe i am just wishing for afew other things ... but i recognized the difference b/w what i had in the card and what the card was fairly worth. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-06-2005, 10:24 PM

Posted By: David VarghaWhether or not his information was legit, you pursued a trade, were denied, and then pursued it again with a sweetened pot. Where is the culpability on the part of the dealer? He didn't go out of his way to "rip you off". He is then under no obligation whatsoever to let you renege on a completed transaction that you fully initiated. As others have so wisely said, do your due diligence beforehand. Especially when a card is common enough like a CJ, where you can do research and wait, there is no need to be so anxious to acquire it. Sometimes the best purchases are the ones we never make. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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11-06-2005, 10:25 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdI dont think he owes you anything,not even an apology because youre not happy.You really have to know what youre getting into when youre dealing with numbers that high and being in business to make money i see nothing wrong with what he did.If this was a close friend of yours id say it would be wrong to lie(if in fact he did) but this is not. Know what you buy before you buy it but most importantly buy what you like and if at the time the card was worth the Jackson and $100 to you then actual value should have no bearing on the deal.Ive overpaid plenty of times and i dont blame the seller and dont regret the deal because i knew what i was getting into

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11-06-2005, 10:30 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognarpretty easy to come by, and CJ Gandils are hard to come by...even if he DID retire to California with $80 that wasn't his...or maybe because of that.

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11-06-2005, 10:34 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanAs a follow up, many of you have valid points, and believe it or not i agree with you. Yes this is a lesson to not only myself but hopefully to others that no matter what, if you don't know what your buying (inside and out) don't buy it unless your willing to take the chance. I don't have buyers remorse in this situation however. I am not upset about my evaluation of the card i purchase (the fact that there is a crease in it for example) or anything else about the transaction. It is simply that i was fed false information about the card. If he had said, Ted, i am truly surprised that people mentioned it was worth $500. Then so be it. But his response was basically take a hike. I am not asking for forgiveness or asking for "special" treatment...this i believe to be a lesson to both buyer and seller: Buyers: Start educating yourself better. Sellers: Stop ripping people off. You may call me a whinner or a baby, or this or that, but at the end of the day, not a single person on here can legitimately attack my honesty. I am upfront and will disclose what i know. Maybe to my own detriment, but it is what it is. Joe Esposito should be commended for not bending over backwards simply b/c someone was not happy. He put it in a perspective that for me was honorable. ----- did not! Remember, anyway you cut it, i'm out more money b/c of joe than i am b/c of -----! A short example is this: A fellow board member (A) recently picked up a card from another board member (B) via ebay. While in (A)'s possession, the card was graded. He offered it up for sale under the premise that he knew what the value was but that he really wasn't sooo interested in selling the item. He set a price that he thought was reasonable but well above market value and WAY above what he paid for it. I happily agreed to that price. I have never complained about that price or any aspect of that transaction. Maybe it's just perspective, but i hope you see my point. Once again, your points are well taken. [Edited To Remove name] Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-06-2005, 10:40 PM

Posted By: zachHey Ted, you talked about this in the chat and said you weren't going to bring it to the board because of everyone including yourself was tired of these moaning types of posts. The seller was in the wrong imo but also just doing what he does best, deal and try to get to dollar. Yes, he was dishonest and trying to make a few extra bucks but that would have never happened if you would have read up on the card. Once again I know this really sucks for you but you are at fault and the seller was dishonest. Whenever you have a gut feeling like that just walk away.

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11-06-2005, 10:49 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanZach i wasn't going to bring it up until his email responses to me. Most of which was left out of this post b/c it's not directly relevant. Once again, I KNOW I DID NOT DO MY RESEACH. Had i done my research this would have never happened. I don't expect a pardon or anyone to cut me a deal b/c i screwed up. At no point did i even intimate that i wanted someone to say boo hoo. I was simply looking for people's opinions about the transaction. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-06-2005, 10:54 PM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliTed: Were you happy with the trade before you found out what the card was "worth"? -Al

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11-06-2005, 11:04 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanAl - That's a freakin great point (that really isn't sarcastic i do believe that to be a great point) I had to think about my response here for a minute and i must say that yes i was delighted. If this was a case of buyers remorse your point would be well on.. But it's about honesty not money. Case in point, see the above story where i knowingly overpaid for a card b/c i liked it and wanted it. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-07-2005, 03:46 AM

Posted By: David VarghaTed, you are wise in your future approach. Although there are a great many wonderful people to deal with in the card collecting community, especially here on this board, "caveat emptor" is always the order of the day. Unfortunately, almost every one of us here has learned the hard way that there are certain people to avoid doing business with. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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11-07-2005, 06:39 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliTed: David is dead on about "caveat emptor"; I think we all have people in the hobby that we avoid for reasons of integrity. I also think that most of us have probably gotten burned by overpaying for a card we didn't know enough about. There are a million sets out there, and it's tough to know about all of them. However, try not to let it cloud the fact that you were happy with the transaction when you made it. You got a great card, you were happy with what you gave up to get it. If you overpaid for it, so what? It's a Black Sox item, so chances are good that it's going to stay in your collection for a long time. By the time you sell it, you'll get your money back. -Al

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11-07-2005, 07:01 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanThanks David, While I can't say I agree with every aspect of what people said in response, it is interesting to hear everyones' perspective and see what aspects of my story they focused on. It sounds to me like so many people have been burned in this industry that people feel almost like it's a right of passage or something ... hehe. Anyway, i am now a part of the club! That's a joke guys ... Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-07-2005, 07:05 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanAl - Before i head out, i wanted to respond to you. You have some really excellent points. Although i must reiterate, it was not overpaying that i'm upset about, it's about the misinformation. This is not a situation of buyers remorse, it's a case of being upset about misinformation. I'm certainly not about burning bridges and such. I will never deal with the previously mentioned dealer again. The only way this card will ever leave my possession is if i upgrade it and even then it is still likely to stay where it is. Thanks for your thoughts! Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-07-2005, 10:36 AM

Posted By: Julie VognarJust thinking about buying graded cards. How many dealers will tell you, I bought this raw for___, but then I got it grtaded, and it'sd now ___( sveral hundred dollars more)?

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11-07-2005, 07:20 PM

Posted By: joe maplesAfter seeing that SGC graded the Jackson, I still wonder why they did not grade this Cobb strip. Joe <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1131420020.JPG">

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11-07-2005, 07:39 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanlol...grading strip cards is kind of pointless (more so than with other cards). That jax was the only one that i ever bought and got graded. Since i bought it at the national i said what the hell and did the onsite grade for like 10 bucks. No biggie. So operating under those premises ... yours looks terribly short for the standards (legitimate or not). What does it measure top/bottom and left/right from TOP/BOTTOM/LEFT/RIGHT. In otherwords...you should have four measurments. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-07-2005, 08:08 PM

Posted By: joe maplesThe measurements in the books say 1 3/8 x 2 1/4. I measured this card and it measures left side 2 5/16 that is longer than 2 1/4, left side is the same 2 5/16. Top measures 1 3/8 which is correct. Bottom is 1 5/16. Bottom 1/16 short. I only posted this because of the way the Jackson looks on the left side bottom, it looks a little short. Joe

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11-07-2005, 08:19 PM

Posted By: cmokingthat's a great looking Cobb! great expression on his face. Which issue is it?

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11-07-2005, 08:19 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanonce again, operating under the assumption that the cards should be graded in the first place, the jackson cut in at an angle on the lower left side but was straight at the left and measures "appropriately" at all other points of the card. Your card appears to cut in on both sides at the bottom. Then again, i'm not really sure what the standards for grading are in the first place, and then again, i don't think that a strip card should be evauluated in the same "perspective" as non-strips. I have a ton of ungraded strip cards (i like em cuz they look neat to me and they are relatively inexpensive)...i'll post them sometime in the next millenium on my site ... but i would say that your card didn't grade b/c it's way to thin on the bottom. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-07-2005, 08:20 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFan1926-27 W512 cmoking! Great meeting you btw Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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11-07-2005, 08:47 PM

Posted By: cmokingGreat meeting you Ted. I think the W512 is my second favorite looking Cobb card. Next to the D304.

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11-08-2005, 07:56 AM

Posted By: identify7Maybe I am being over critical here, cmoking, but that Cobb looks to me as if he has his false eyelashes on, and his lipstick, and he is ready for a night out with the boys. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

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11-08-2005, 08:00 AM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliTy Cobb is rolling over in his grave right now because you said that. -Al

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11-08-2005, 08:33 AM

Posted By: identify7Anybody who knew how to make millions of dollars 100 years ago, don't pay me no mind.

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11-14-2005, 07:42 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanHad an extra minute or two so i added it to my site... here is the Gandil of ill repute! <img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/cards/1915_cj_gandil.jpg"> Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>