Manning "Ghost" on Ebay...Ending soon

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Is anyone watching this? <br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8714198012&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8714198012&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&rd=1</a><br /><br />Any large premium for the "ghost" and why isn't it noted by PSA? Any info. would be appreciated. Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>I dont think that's a ghost, just very off-register. Also, I dont think PSA or any grading company would recognize a ghost image, even if it was one.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Thanks. Saved me a few bucks.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The value of a ghost card is in the quality of a ghost. There are a variety of cards with 5 o'clock shadows, but only a few with the dark and clear appearance of another player. The latter are worth the premium.<br /><br />The same goes for bad registration or missing/added color printing errors. Most of the the time this is detrimental to value, but there are a few cases of bizarre errors that will have a premium.<br /><br />One of the T206 Wangers with a Piedmont back has a light ghost of another player on the front. This card appears to have been a scrap (from a sheet quality control rejected by printers), possibly due to the misprint.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>It's value is whatever people will pay, but in my opinion that's just an ugly card - I would much rather have a nice crisp image with strong colors. Now the really f*cked-up ones are a totally different matter! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p><img src="http://home.insightbb.com/~scantland/obak1911/1911_Bernard_Ghost.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Is it me? I am the only person that feels the following:<br /><br />Years ago a ghost image would have been seen as a defect which resulted in a lower technical grade for the card.<br /><br />Years ago having the name partially cut off of the bottom (and showing part of the name at the top) of the T206 would have been a defect that lowered the technical grade of the card.<br /><br />Years ago a card with a stamp on it was considered marred because someone added a stamp mark across it. <br /><br />Years ago slight color variations weren't considered "variations". <br /><br />Go ahead, call me a purist or someone that doesn't adapt well to change.... In the numismatic world there was the 1955 double die and the poor mans double die... I guess there are a lot of poor mans (now rich mans) double dies out there in the card collecting world...

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Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Nope, you're right (said, j/k) Fred. I still won't consider ghosts, printing defects, and other flaws for my personal collection. I guess I might pick up a common T206 if it had a clear ghost image of Wagner or Cobb.<br /><br />A lot of the hype with many of these cards is clearly another way for sellers to maximize their profits.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Fred, it's been said before, but worth repeating. Collectors who are interested in the history of these cards might very well have an interest in the production process and these "defects" shed insight into that process. For that reason, they have value...to some. Don't begrudge us the right to consider them interesting, and if you are smart you will siimply take our money and say "thanks".<br /><br />Also, there are a limited number of cards in the t206 set, so once you've seen them all, there ain't nuthin new...except for these "defects". JMO - that and $1.25...

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Fred:<br /><br />I am glad you bring this up. Because of recent discussions on this, I have tried to reconcile the very issues you bring up. I collect for one reason and one reason only. THE LOVE OF BASEBALL AND ITS HISTORY. I learned a lot about baseball, or at least baseball players, through Topps cards when I was growing up. That is why I collect now... a mechanism to teach my child and potential granchildren about the game. But, my only reconcilliation as to why folks collect odd stuff (shadows, ghosts, cards missing the red ink) is that it is about the love of collecting or the love of the oddity. I can understand collecting "odd" cards of good players. But to collect an "odd" card from a PCL player, who may have never made it to the bigs, CAN'T be about baseball. Certainly, I have an appreciation for set collecting and therefore a certain demand for the lesser players, but a willingness to pay $1,000 for a Heine Wagner card because it is missing red ink? Somebody is going to have to explain that to me.<br /><br />All right folks, let me have it.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Doubled die coin errors and other errors fascinate many collectors. I do not understand what it is about errors that generates interest. Heck, I do not buy into (although I have) the thinking that mintmarks constitute a significant difference among coins.<br /><br />But I also don't see the importance that many place on the advertisement on the back of a baseball card.<br /><br />But of all of these differences, sometimes (yes, infrequently) but sometimes the result is so attractive, quaint, or otherwise compelling that a non-collector will say "yes! I can see spending extra for that".<br /><br />Occasionally a ghost image will yield that response, sometimes it it other printing errors, but we have all seen those instances in which there is no doubt that a premium should be associated with the mistake.<br /><br />Unless there is that quality in which even a non-collector will recognize the premium status of the product, imho, there is no premium warranted.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />And as Scott points out: this viewpoint has nothing to do with baseball nor the player. It has its sole focus on the unusualness or attractiveness of the product produced.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>First of all, don't bag on the PCL collectors out there. Until 1957 the PCL was the top league in the west. It had nice stadiums, loyal fans, a high level of play, a great history and lots of tough, interesting cards to collect as a result. Not to mention pre-rookies of a bevvy of HOFers and popular players. Personally, I'd rather own a Zeenut DiMaggio over any other DiMaggio card. <br /><br />Second, as Scott said, there are many collectors who are interested not merely in owning the "same old" cards but in owning unique cards that illustrate the process in which the cards were made. There are a lot of us. If you don't like or don't want to collect these items, fine, leave them to the others who do. Whatever floats your boat. The point is that they are of interest to many, popularly collected and increasingly valuable.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Thanks for the input. <br /><br />Alas, a reason (and a good one at that) that even I can understand. People collect these error cards because there is a tie to the production of the cards and the results of the process which, in some cases, yielded a few unusual cards. I can understand that.<br /><br />Those T and E cards can be very tough if you try to collect all the different variations and subtle differences. I'm happy that my affliction with the hobby is a little different. I'll have to check through my T's and E's to see what odd balls I might have. <br /><br />I collect because I love baseball history and the characters that reside between the pages of the books which tell the story of the game and the oddball people and superstars that play(ed) the game.<br /><br />Yes, I like odd ball cards but I like the oddities that are shown on the card, not so much the process that brought the card to life (although the process sounds like it's interesting in the older cards). <br /><br />Sorry about hijacking the thread but the feedback received is worth any rebuke coming my way. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Warshawlaw:<br /><br />Thanks for the second paragraph above. But the first paragraph, hmmmm? You took this statement "collect an "odd" card from a PCL player, who may have never made it to the bigs" and expanded to ----&gt; I was bashing the whole PCL and those that collect based on the PCL -----&gt; which expanded to bashing all the players in the PCL ----&gt; which expanded to inferring that I didn't have the proper appreciation for the HOFers that went through the PCL (and even more directly at a DiMaggio Zeenut). DAMN, I didn't say all that.<br /><br />I have it narrowed down to family law or criminal law. Just a joke.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Cat - some of those PCL collectors are very sensitive. They realize we think they're screwballs <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (just kidding)<br /><br />OBAK's are arguably the most beautiful of the 1909-11 era lithograph cards (I'm of that opinion). Also, many players elected to play in the PCL, RATHER than the major leagues, because they could make more money. That's what I've heard anyway - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Well Scott, I think that you are close, not exactly wrong.<br /><br />But your statement should read "they think that we realize that they are screwballs" (just kidding)<br /><br />Or do I still have it wrong?<br /><br />Edited to add: And what exactly is Cat's beef with DiMaggio?

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Because of my extreme appreciation for the player and the man, I am looking to upgrade the following card to a Zeenut.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1130960441.JPG"> <br /><br /><br /><br />Did you guys know that he played in the PCL?

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>After moving to Seattle, most serious local vintage baseball collectors I met specialized in PCL not MLB. There was a PCL team in Seattle and also in nearby Tacoma. In ways, it is comparable to the ties to the local college football team. If you move to Ann Arbor, you can bet there will be serious collectors of Wolverine football memorabilia.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Can I be an unserious collector if I like the PCL?<br /><br />I would even settle for a serious-neutral collector title -- but I just hate being termed a serious collector.<br /><br />Any guidance is helpful,<br /><br />Brian -- an advanced unserious collector of Obaks

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Subtle Cat, very subtle. But your meaning comes through.<br /><br />By playing the DiMaggio chokes card, there can no longer be doubt.<br />Come on now. Tell me you didn't notice how he was holding the bat.<br /><br />DiMaggio never held the bat like that, and he was dependable in the clutch. Another Yankee hater is revealed.