T206 w/ no red ink ends early on eBay. GRRR! [Archive]

Archive

10-26-2005, 08:39 PM

Posted By: RayThe seller tried to be cute with his description, but didn't realize he had a hidden gem on his hands. As the only underbidder and close follower of the auction, I was a little annoyed that someone managed to get him to end the auction early. The seller states that he sold to highest bidder at current price, but I don't see why ($12.75?). The highest bidder is a well-respected forum member and I don't believe he would cut a deal under the table. I emailed the seller and got no response. Any thoughts? Here is the auction in question: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8708902744&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8708902744&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT</a> Here is the same card with Red ink: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Heinie-Wagner-Heinie-bat-left-Red-Sox_W0QQitemZ5244201571QQcategoryZ86841QQssPageNam eZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Heinie-Wagner-Heinie-bat-left-Red-Sox_W0QQitemZ5244201571QQcategoryZ86841QQssPageNam eZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a> Thanks, Ray

Archive

10-26-2005, 09:37 PM

Posted By: robert aOuch, Ray, that was a hidden gem. The kind of card that I search for pretty much every day. That's frustrating.

Archive

10-26-2005, 10:54 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensIf you look at one of the bidders it obviously wasn't a hidden gem. My guess is an off ebay deal was made. It is tough to get anything like this by everyone these days. Lee

Archive

10-27-2005, 08:51 AM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}This card just doesn't look right to me. The boarders look to big and the factory print on the back also looks to big. Rob

Archive

10-27-2005, 09:09 AM

Posted By: BryanYou could just ask Dan if he made a deal with the seller. Edited for spelling.

Archive

10-28-2005, 11:46 AM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}So Dan tell us. Rob

Archive

10-28-2005, 11:55 AM

Posted By: warshawlawYou are saying that you are angry that someone came along and made a presumably good offer to the seller, depriving you of the chance of snagging a below market deal on a "hidden gem"? To be frank, I sense that your indignation stems more from disappointment over not getting over on the deal rather than from a lack of fair play. Would you feel the same way if the bid was at $500 instead of $12.75 when the seller ended the auction?

Archive

10-28-2005, 12:42 PM

Posted By: Scott Elkinse-mail the seller with an OUTRAGEOUS offer - an offer that you might not even be willing to pay! This works all the time, as the seller then realizes that he sold the card too cheaply to the person who made a deal outside of eBay. The seller usually cancels that deal, since it is not binding and relists the card thinking he/she can get even more than your outrageous offer for it!!!!!

Archive

10-28-2005, 01:19 PM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}I still think that the card does not look right, Rob

Archive

10-28-2005, 01:32 PM

Posted By: zachNope. Theres nothing wrong with the card. Also, the seller is a good seller and doesn't sell reprints.

Archive

10-28-2005, 06:04 PM

Posted By: RayWarshaw, its a little bit of both. The seller had no idea what he had, and his title and description would make most people turn away without even blinking. But, that said, I see it happening more and more. On average I have about 25-40 auctions I'm watching, and about 3-4 a week are pulled early. Scott, I emailed the seller before making the post here. He didn't reply. I hope you have better luck.

Archive

10-28-2005, 06:08 PM

Posted By: zach.

Archive

10-28-2005, 06:22 PM

Posted By: RayI am in no way knocking the seller's knowledge of vintage cards. But, if you read the description, you can tell this one slipped past him: "Ha-Ha-Ha you thought it was Honus didn't you??? It is still a nice card and is in VG+ condition and with the rare blueback Piedmont back (not rare just kidding). Anyway....bid on it - the card still books for $275!" Oh well, one day I'll catch a break! LOL.

Archive

10-28-2005, 06:46 PM

Posted By: brian pAnother way of going about this is emailing a link of this thread to the seller. I think the seller would get the point that they made a mistake ending the auction early and that they could make more money by just relisting it properly. All's fair in love and cards, Brian

Archive

10-28-2005, 07:09 PM

Posted By: Charlie O'NealI didn't buy the card but I would not be suprised if the offer was for $225 and the seller was laughing all the way to the bank when he accepted the offer. I guess the joke was on him/her.

Archive

10-28-2005, 07:56 PM

Posted By: CatLast week I bought a card from a board member where he had to cancel an EBay Listing. I had simply e-mailed him and asked if he had considered a buy it now price. He e-mailed me back with a high price and I jumped at it. I truly believe I paid more than he would of recieved had he let the auction run. I was just willing to pay the "opportunity cost." When we talked on the phone, he actually did not want to cancel the auction, even though I said I would pay what he wanted. I think he felt he may be bashed a bit on this board (he wasn't). The price of the card when I e-mailed him (the card had ran slighly longer than 1 day) was $27. The price of the card when he cancelled the listing (listed a day and a half at that point) was a little over $50. I can't remember the exact amount. What did I pay for it...$850. About a year ago, I was going to buy a 1914 Walter Johnson Cracker Jack card. The card had ran on EBay but didn't make the reserve. About a week after the auction ended I emailed him and offered $1,200. He declined and relisted the card the next week. I bought it for $1,085.

Archive

10-29-2005, 08:29 AM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}<DIV>I personally think once you put an item up for auction you should not be able to stop it. Of course you can put a reserve on it or a high opening bid. If you want to sell an item with out having an auction you should put it in the ebay store or put a buy it now on the item. Or you can put an add in SCD or a similar mag. If you didn't want to auction it in the first place and would have rather just sold it outright it should not be listed as an auction in the first place. Rob</DIV>

Archive

10-29-2005, 02:16 PM

Posted By: warshawlawIt simply isn't practical to try such a rule. The seller could always say that he lost the item, for example.

Archive

10-29-2005, 03:40 PM

Posted By: Charlie O'NealIf there is an auction that I just have to have (one that doesn't come up very often)I will email the seller stating that I am interested in the auction and will have a high bid coming in at the last minute so please do not end the auction early. I also state that if he has an offer come, good enough that he is considering ending the auction to please let me know so that I have a chance to counter. In the rare occurences that I have done this, an auction has never ended early and the sellers have been receptive to this since they know a high bid is coming at the last sec.

Archive

10-30-2005, 06:43 PM

Posted By: RayI received a response from the seller of the auction this afternoon. It was very polite and well written. He apologized for pulling the auction and renegged on his deal. He is relisting it on eBay. I know it doesn't necessarily mean much because he will make out rather well on the new listing, but it was a nice gesture on his part. I also received an unkind email from the person who apparently tried to buy it outright. My only response is that I played by the rules of eBay and that now I have an equal chance of winning the card fairly. -Ray

Archive

10-30-2005, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsI knew it wouldn't be long when I e-mailed him a straight up offer for $1000 and told him I might go higher if I had to bid on ebay!

Archive

10-30-2005, 07:51 PM

Posted By: RayThen maybe you should have received the email I got from the buyer! LOL!

Archive

10-31-2005, 07:52 AM

Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}The card is not relisted as of yet. Rob

Archive

10-31-2005, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Scott Elkins....

Archive

10-31-2005, 09:47 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensSo do we get to find out who the person was that made the offer off line? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

10-31-2005, 10:58 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthMore importantly I want to see the nasty email he sent.

Archive

10-31-2005, 11:28 AM

Posted By: Trevor HockingI know Rich the seller and he is an old time hobbiest. He is a very nice guy and I have nothing but great dealings with him. This kind of thing happens all the time, and actually I did the same this with this very same seller, that is how I got to know him better. There was a N172 Ewing and Mascot variation that I asked Rich to end early, for a very strong and fair price, $6,500 and I was high bidder for like $250 or something at the time and he agreed and ended it. So ofcourse Rich got all kinds of offers and people saying he did wrong and then the board went going and say who ever got it got it cheap thinking it only went for $250 or something close. But the only reason it went back on ebay is that there was only one other higher offer from a board member for apparently 10k. So I told Rich that is a very strong offer and I couldn't match it as I didn't think it was fair market value. So I told him to sell to the other person for 10k as that was a great price to get for the card and I was done with it. Then he told me he was just going to relist it and see what happens. So I placed my bids and the auction closed at like $7,200 or something close to that. I did not win the card. So I emailed Rich and asked if the person who offered 10k won the card and Rich said no he didn't bid or he didn't bid even close to the final price or something like that. So yes the seller made and extra $700 which is great but with ebay fees and PalPay if there was PayPal I think he got a little extra. So what my long winded point is don't think people just make stupid offers and Rich is a stand up guy. Even though I didn't get the card it was great to meet him. Also if you're not going to make a good offer (one you are really going to pay) DON'T MAKE IT!!!!! and if you made one and the card is relisted make sure to bid aleast what you where willing to pay it's only fair. Trevor Hocking

Archive

10-31-2005, 11:38 AM

Posted By: Tom L.I am not the buyer (nor do I know who got the seller to stop the auction), but what you guys are doing - by contacting the seller after he already made an off-line deal to sell the card - is actually contractual interference. Once the prospective buyer contacted the seller, the seller agreed to stop the auction and sell the item to the individual, they had a legal, binding contract (offer, acceptance, promises constituting consideration). Regardless of what you thought of the buyer's actions, you violated tort law when you contacted the seller and purposely induced him to renege on his contract. I doubt that the individual would try to do anything about the situation (considering the amount probably isn't worth the energy/time of a legal fight). But just so you know, the buyer could go after the seller for breach of contract, and after whoever contacted the seller for tortious interference with a contract. As for possible damages: per the Restatement, 2nd of Torts (which a number of states have expressly adopted as state law), "such damages as would reasonably flow from a tortious contractual interference" may include the pecuniary loss of the benefits of the contract, consequential losses for which the tortious act is the legal cause, emotional distress and actual harm to reputation, if they are reasonably to be expected to result from the tortious act, and, in appropriate circumstances, punitive damages. See also Dobbs, Law of Remedies, § 6.4, p. 461. I know this stuff happens all the time without ramication, but I can see someone going after the seller and interfering person in a situation where the item at issue was extremely rare/expensive/desirable. Have a nice day, Tom

Archive

10-31-2005, 12:02 PM

Posted By: leonWhat you are saying is most likely true. It makes me friggin PUKE but is probably true. I think the seller should get punched in the face and the person making the offer should get his ass kicked. Is that legal? Trevor- you forgot to mention the little "PL" designation on the Ewing card.....probably helps the value a tad bit. regards

Archive

10-31-2005, 12:20 PM

Posted By: RayI will only post the name and/or e-mail with Leon's permission. I am more of a lurker than a poster and I don't want to do something that is not kosher on the board. As far as Tom's comment goes, didn't the seller "break eBay rules" by ending the auction early? He did not sell the card at the price it was currently at in the auction, as his listing states. Who knows... who cares... I didn't start this thread to get people pissed at me or anyone else. I did it because I'm seeing more and more auctions end early and it ticks me off because I keep losing out on a chance to possibly snipe them.

Archive

10-31-2005, 12:59 PM

Posted By: Cobby33So has this card been re-listed? Also-I'm not sure this qualifies as interference with a contract, as there are several elements which must be met (6 in California) and there is no per se prohibition from parties making offers on pending/completed transactions. Now--if the pending/completed agreement was breached, that could be a breach by the seller (or buyer-whomever cancels the transaction without justification or permission), actionable by the wronged party. Point is, we should be careful not to indict the wrong party for the wrong reason. Just my $.02.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:15 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeMy emails were not that bad, here they are to both of you for screwing me out of the deal: To Ray: you successfully screwed me with your post the seller renegged on the deal nice to meet you dan to Scott: You were successful Scott The seller renegged on the Wagner congratulations dan If these are nasty, then you do not know me too well. Trust me, I can be REAL NASTY! The problem is, the seller ended the auction early, that is allowed by ebay with me as the winner, he rightfully should sell to me at the auction price. He isn't so you guys were successful. I lose, no biggie. Leon, I was the offerer but I don't think you can kick my ass but you are very welcome to try, my money is on me though. J/K. Bottomline here is that many people do it, thanks for coming in Trevor, I appreciate the support. I started doing it after I lost several items like Ray stated. I just lost the buttercream Foxx today that someone closed down. I do it because it gets done to me and it is part of the cutthroat competition. I come to this board when I have time to possibly help out on information or to post when there is an ebay scam like doctored fakes. I have been collecting 37 years and have alot to offer the board. Obviously, I can get crapped on just as easy as anyone else. I appreciate the comradery here, with friends like you guys, who needs PSA? You won, I lost. my best to all, Dan.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:18 PM

Posted By: Trevor HockingLeon, I did say it was a Variation and yes a PL variation at that hence the $6,500 offer which was very much in line with current market and a very fair offer. Plus for me to hear you say the comments about people trying to end items early is shocking. When you have stated on this board many times before that you your self have done this same thing? Maybe it was just sarcasm on your side that I was missing. Well any rate my thought is if I really want something I better go after it as aggressively as possible or someone else will and I will scratching my head and complaining to board members about how unfair it is that it ended early. At least by getting in contact with the seller it lets you get a communication going on just how interested you are in there item.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:21 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeI was watching a George C Miller candy tin once. The seller ended it early. I was crying to Leon and he stated that he closed them down. The seller told me they sold it at their yardsale, that was funny. Anyway, since I knew Leon and he closed it down, I did not try to ruin his deal. If I didn't know him maybe I would have. It happens all of the time and you either do it, or you lose out. Dan.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:22 PM

Posted By: Cobby33What is this card worth, generally, anyway?

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:24 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeA few hundred at best, if you will look closely, there are still traces of the red. If Scott is willing to pay $1000 for it, then by god he should own it.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:34 PM

Posted By: Tom Lawrie1. The seller didn't break eBay's rules by ending the listing early. EBay's rules prevent a seller from refusing to sell an item after an auction has ended with a successful bidder, but they don't specifically forbid the practice of ending the listing early. (EBay still gets their insertion fee plus the optional feature fees, which are non-refundable.) In fact, eBay actually provides procedures for ending the auction early. The following 2 sections (taken verbatim from eBay policies) are most relevant: A. "Seller Non-Performance: When a seller lists an item on eBay, and a buyer bids for and wins that item, the seller and buyer have entered into a contract. Both members are expected to honor that contract. In accordance with that contract, the seller may not: Fail to deliver an item for which payment was accepted. Significantly misrepresent an item by not meeting the terms and item description outlined in the listing. Refuse to accept payment for an item at the end of a successful sale. Refuse to accept a buyer’s PayPal payment using a credit card ... " B. "Ending Your Listing Early: Sometimes something goes wrong and you can't complete your listing as planned. If needed, you can choose to end your listing before the scheduled date. If there are bids on your item, you can cancel them. Reasons for ending listings early include: The item is no longer available for sale. There was an error in the starting price or reserve amount. There was an error in the listing. The item was lost or broken. Note: Your account will still be charged listing fees (such as the Insertion Fee) if you end your listing early. Consider revising your listing first if there are aspects of it you want to change or improve. Timing Matters When there are 12 hours or fewer remaining and the item has a winning bid, including a reserve met bid, sellers may not make any changes to the listing, including: ending the item early. Sellers may cancel bids, but not end the item unless the item is being sold to the high bidder adding to or changing the item description converting the item to pre-approved bidder Canceling bids or making changes to a listing with bids when there are 12 hours or fewer remaining damages the buyer experience and can undermine trust in the marketplace. To end your listing early, follow these steps: Type your item number into the End My Listing Early form. (You can get this number on your listing, on your confirmation email, or on your My eBay page.) If there are bids on your item, choose between: a. Cancel bids and end listing early or b. Sell item to high bidder(s) and end listing early If your item has no bids, you'll skip this step. Choose the reason you're ending your listing early. Now your listing will end and will no longer be displayed on eBay. If there were bidders, they will be emailed that their bid was canceled and the listing ended early. Note: Sellers are not permitted to cancel bids and end listings early in order to avoid selling an item that did not meet the desired sale price. This is considered to be reserve fee circumvention. Although there are legitimate reasons for ending a listing early, abuse of this option will be investigated." [end of eBay quotes]. 2. But even if the seller had somehow violated eBay's rules (which he didn't), that would still be a separate issue between eBay and the seller. It probably doesn't negate the validity of the contract between an off-line buyer and the seller, or the issue of contractual interference of subsequent e-mailers to the seller. Bidders, watchers, and prospective snipers generally have no legal right to complain if the seller ends the auction early. [This all presupposes that there was no actual auction "winner."] You may not like it - and trust me, I don't like it - but that's pretty much the way it is. Tom

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:38 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeGreat Tom! Will you represent me when I sue Ray and Scott? J/K. Tom, lmk if your check made it today. Hell, I am 1 for 1 in court, but I hope I never see another court room in my life! Sorry Adam, you can have your job.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:44 PM

Posted By: warshawlawboth the seller and the interfering party can be held liable. The seller can be forced to complete the contract (specific performance) or if that is not possible because the item is already gone, he can be held liable for the value of the item not sold, less the purchase price not paid. The interfering party can be hit for compensatory and punitive damages. Ebay rules aren't law, BTW; and asking someone to end early doesn't violate them anyway.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:56 PM

Posted By: Tom L.I am pretty sure your interpretation of contractual interference is wrong: The following is taken from: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference</a> "Although the specific elements required to prove a claim of tortious interference vary from one jursidiction to another, they typically include the following: 1. The existence of a contractual relationship or beneficial business relationship between two parties. 2. Knowledge of that relationship by a third party. 3. Intent of the third party to induce a party to the relationship to breach the relationship. 4. Lack of any privilege on the part of the third party to induce such a breach. 5. Damage to the party against whom the breach occurs." Also, under common law: "Tortious interference with contract rights can occur where the tortfeasor convinces a party to breach the contract against the plaintiff, or where the tortfeasor disrupts the ability of one party to perform his obligations under the contract, thereby preventing the plaintiff from receiving the performance promised." [Source: Jesse Dukeminier and James E. Krier, Property, Fifth Edition, Aspen Law & Business (New York, 2002), p. 31-36.] Anyway, I think that all of the elements are met when someone convinces the seller to renege on an off-line sale. Tom I saw the post by Adam (warshawlaw) after I put all of this down. He is a California attorney - and a damn good one by all reports - and so I would take his word as gospel on this issue.

Archive

10-31-2005, 01:57 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeTom, you are fired! Adam, you are hired. Sorry Tom, I have seen Adam in action! And he is DAMN good!

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:03 PM

Posted By: Trevor HockingI just want to say again Rich (the seller) is a nice guy and an old hobbiest. He is not trying to screw anyone he is just trying to make the most return of his old collection from what I can see. He has been very fair with me and when someone offered more money than me on my deal which was a lot more than $1,000 I just told him the truth that it is more money than I would be willing to pay and he should sell it to the other person with the higher offerno harm no foul. Hay ebay is just like a big swapmeet knowleadge is power and do what ever it takes to get the items you really want as long as you follow all the rules.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:15 PM

Posted By: leonTrevor, Dan et al.....the ONLY times I have asked to stop an auction is BEFORE there were bids on it....right or wrong my feeling is if there are NO bids I am not hurting anyone...and yes I know people snipe...but no bids are no bids....regards all edited to say...No Dan I was not referring to you specifically when I say the seller should be punched and the offerer his ass kicked....it was just in general....now if ya give me some Jack then we might fight...but then I am more harmless than I am now....

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:17 PM

Posted By: MarkActually, when the buyer gets the card, I think he is going to be very disappointed. I can read the "Boston" across the chest, and the scan is very dark to start with. When you see the card in a good light, I am sure no one would really consider it a true color missing card. Just lighter than normal. Take a good look at it! As for value, I sold one that truly did have all of the red color missing on ebay a couple of years ago. It went for $1300 at that time.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:19 PM

Posted By: Cobby33I don't want to get into a pissing match about who's the better CA lawyer, since it doesn't really matter to me--but, my interpretation of the law isn't wrong, as we are working under the same elements. You correctly point out that one must prove: 2. Knowledge of that relationship by a third party. 3. Intent of the third party to induce a party to the relationship to breach the relationship. Thus, you HAVE TO show that the "interfering" party KNEW that there was an actual VALID contract between the two SPECIFIC parties and that they had SPECIFIC INTENT to have one (or both) of the parties breach the contract. This is usually very difficult to prove, which is why it rarely succeeds. Again, my point is not to issue a treatise on contract law. It is just to remind everyone that we should reserve judgment on who wronged who until we are 100% sure of the facts (and for that matter, the law).

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:28 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeWhiskey makes you nasty? I love it. I heard you were a mean drunk! But I don't buy it, you are too laid back.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:32 PM

Posted By: RayTom, You are wrong when you say he did not violate eBay rules. Unless he sold the card to Dan for $12.75 (which we can pretty much assume he didn't), his ending of the auction does not meet any of their approved reasons. eBay even states in the fine print when someone asks you a question about an auction you are running: If the person makes any offers to outright purchase your item offline, you should report them.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:38 PM

Posted By: Todd SchultzWith all due respect, the analysis here is entirely oversimplistic. In addition to the points raised by Cobby33, it must also be shown that the so-called interfering party had no privilege to interfere. In Arizona, and I suspect 49 other states as well (or at least those that follow the restatement of torts), competitors enjoy at least a limited privileged to interfere. It's called competition and free commerce. Ever hear of someone breaking a lease to go down the street to a better/cheaper space? Drop out of a home purchase because he got a better deal? Happens all the time. Can the party backing out of these deals be sued for breach of contract, hell yes. It is an economic consequence that must be factored into the decision to breach the contract. Can the guy who offered the better deal be sued for interference with contract, hell no, at least absent a showing of some alterior and improper motive or means used in enticing the breach. In the case of this so-called off-ebay transaction, the interference claim would have a snowball's chance in hell of success, IMHO.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:44 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeCan someone email me the link to the thread where we all shared our ebay ID's? thanks Dan.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:46 PM

Posted By: Cobby33Good points.

Archive

10-31-2005, 02:49 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeYou are right Ray, my new good friend, he didn't sell me the card at $12.75 thanks to you. He didn't sell me the card at all. He was going to, actually, I thought that was a little high so I beat him down to $11 shipped.

Archive

10-31-2005, 04:46 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsAs he stated. Still cannot believe Leon's post regarding all the ass kicking (he must be talking to bcd too much lately). Anyway, Dan knows the reasons I was pissed at him for, and we settled those offline via e-mail like two gentlemen. As for contractual intereference - go ahead and sue me all you wish. My only income is from disability (social security and veteran's). That cannot be touched with a lawsuit! I find that to be a BS suit anyway (not that one probably couldn't win). However, I see nothing wrong with making a higher offer for an item, even if it was promised as being sold. Does all this mean I can sue all those people who have made deals with me and broken them???????? Come on! Hell, I even had a board member blatantly steal $883 from me and when I e-mailed him telling him I wanted the money, he was arrogant enough to ask if I was threatening him! This Hobby is getting really bad for the cut-throats!!!!! Trust me - a board member recently screwed me out of an SGC 20 Croft's Cocoa Chance by threatening the seller b/c he bought a card from the seller on eBay that was listed as trimmed (then was mad b/c the card was trimmed)! The Hobby is getting so bad with all this BS that it is beginning to not even be fun any longer. THAT was my main reason for e-mailing the seller of the card Dan purchased early with an offer of $1k (plus, I owed Dan that for a couple things he did to me that I am no longer going to worry about or mention). AND, I DO BELIEVE THE CARD IS WORTH MORE THAN MY OFFER!!

Archive

10-31-2005, 05:49 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSellers should never end ebay auctions early because they will almost always be offered less than their card will ultimately sell for and they will almost always piss off everyone bidding on it, so in the end everybody loses. If a bidder sees a card worth $1000 plus and the current bid is $11, I would recommend he place a high ceiling and hope somebody elses pushes it up; the higher the bid the seller sees he is getting, the less likely he is going to consider shutting down his auction. There are bargains on ebay but you can't buy a card for 2% of its value and others are going to find it. Every auction that closes early ends up with some kind of fallout, especially in such a competitive and cutthroat environment.

Archive

10-31-2005, 07:01 PM

Posted By: Al CrisafulliWhat bugs me far more than sellers who end auctions early is sellers who shut down auctions because they're not comfortable with the bidding prices. A few months ago there was a seller who had a lot of very nice cards he had purchased at Mastro. He listed them all on Ebay as one lot. It was one of those auctions that we've all seen, where we saw it and said "I am going to win that lot, no matter what it costs." I prepared to set an extremely high snipe. With about two days left in the auction, the bidding was still very low - in the low hundreds for a lot that was probably worth $2,500. I started thinking maybe I was going to get a steal, but was prepared to go far higher than the cards were worth. All of a sudden, the auction disappeared. I emailed the seller about it, he flat-out told me that he ended the auction because the bidding was low, and he was scared he was going to lose money on the auction. So he pulled the auction and decided he was going to send the cards to PSA. That made me NUTS. My opinion - if you list the card on Ebay, you're supposed to sell the card, one way or the other. You can't list something and then pull it because the bidding isn't working in your favor - I certainly never see sellers pulling their listings because the bidding is too high. To make matters worse, I responded to him and asked what he was hoping to get for the cards. His response was "I have $2,500 in them, and I was hoping to get at least $2,800". So I told him point blank that I would give him $3,000 for them right then and there. Two days went by without hearing from him, so I emailed him again. He responded by saying "The cards are already at PSA. Sorry." I never heard from the guy again. To me, that's way worse than someone ending an auction early. -Al

Archive

10-31-2005, 11:12 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI personally do not see a problem with ending an auction early if there are NO bids. To me if a bid is placed the auction should go thru. As much as we may hate the offers off line, they are a fact of the ebay auctions and you might as well get use to it. Lee

Archive

11-01-2005, 01:43 AM

Posted By: Nickbut they are part of the seller's contract with eBay. Ending an auction early to sell to someone (even the current highest bidder) at other than the highest bid price is a breach by the seller of his contract with eBay - and deprives eBay of its expectancy of final value fees. The buyer, in that case, is himself inducing a breach of contract and committing a potentially tortious action against eBay. Most, if not all, states have an equitable principle of law that no one shall benefit from his own wrong - in California it's even codified in the "Maxims of Jurisprudence" part of the Civil Code - meaning that there is a very strong chance a court would refuse to recognize any claim for damages by a buyer or seller in such a situation.

Archive

11-01-2005, 05:39 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI agree with Al that the seller should have kept the auction going. I think the only options are to set a reserve when you list the item, which is entirely fair, or if you choose not to use the reserve then you agree to let the lot sell for whatever it goes for. Also, experienced sellers know it is silly to judge the high bid a day or two before the close; the bid can triple in the last ten seconds. Sellers need to think this all out at the time they list; we are given several options to protect ourselves and that's the time to exercise them; not five days into the process when things just aren't going the seller's way.

Archive

11-01-2005, 07:34 AM

Posted By: dan mckeePlease notice the J/K after the part about suing you. Stands for just kidding. I wasn't that mad. Just please contact me in the future when you have a problem with me instead of what you did. I am sure we can always work it out. If you will pay $1000 for that card then you deserve to have it. I sure wouldn't with some of the red there. Glad you and I worked things out. Ray, I noticed you wrote above "I will catch a break one day!". Does that mean you will get a good deal one day? or does it mean since you didn't get this deal, you will do whatever you can to hose it up for the person that did? Scott, I hope your Social Security checks are coming in a timely manner, if you ever have a problem with that, feel free to call me direct and I will try to help you out as I work there. Leon, I appreciate your stand on the close-down only if there are no bids. But remember, not only was there already a bid on the orbits, the auction was also over. Then you made your offer so you were not practicing what you preach there. Maybe it was just a one-time oversight on your part, no sweat.

Archive

11-01-2005, 07:54 AM

Posted By: RayDan, I meant I hope that I win a card like this that sneaks under everyone else's radar. Honestly, I was never out to screw you like you have repeatedly said. Read my original post. I was angry at the seller for ending the auction early and not giving me a chance to bid again. I actually stated that you were a "well-respected" member of this board. Not once have I said I felt satisfaction in getting the seller to reneg his deal with you. With all this out in the open, when he relists, there is no way I'd be able to afford this card and I'd rather a board member have it than someone else. I'm sorry that you think I was out to get you. If you reread my posts, you would see that is the farthest thing from the truth. Best regards, Ray

Archive

11-01-2005, 07:56 AM

Posted By: leonDan with all due respect, and as a friend, you are still wrong on the Orbits auction. There were bids on it, you made the offer, THEN he closed it down, prior to it's natural ending to accept your offer. Of course it was over ...HE STOPPED IT WITH YOUR OFFER ACCEPTED BEFORE IT WAS DUE TO END, or is there still something I am missing? I am practicing what I preach and if you would quit trying to get sellers to end all of their auctions early, AFTER there are bids on them, this wouldn't happen....And I can say if you continue I will continue offering them higher money on every one I can...alls fair in love and cards I guess......best regards

Archive

11-01-2005, 08:24 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeAm I officially upgraded from a collecting friend to a friend? Hell I will take it! Now because you think it is ok to offer when there are no bids and not after there are bids, that is what is right? I disagree with you on that. That is your opinion of what's right and wrong. So since I broke your rule then it was ok for you to break your own rule too? 2 wrongs make a right? You didn't need to state that you would do it again in the future, I expect it. Dan.

Archive

11-01-2005, 08:44 AM

Posted By: JasonSeems to me like alot of jealous people are mad that Dan found a deal and since they couldn't have it then he couldn't either. Goes to show that you shouldn't turn your back on your "friends", Dan. You may end up with a dagger. I remember once when a fellow board member renegged on a deal concerning a low grade Cobb about 3-4 years ago. Pull the plank out of your own eye Leon before telling Dan to remove the speck in his. Why are we such hypocrits?

Archive

11-01-2005, 08:57 AM

Posted By: leonI am not jealous...just playing the game...IF someone shuts an auction down before it ends then I am going to try to buy it too...why is that wrong? ..take care ps....btw Jason...why not just let auctions run their course?

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:15 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)I've seen quite a few auctions end early. Do I like it when it's something I want - NO. To me it really doesn't matter whether there are bids on the card or not when an auction is ended early because the seller takes an offer on the card. Besides, what happens if you email the seller (to end the auction early) before there are any bids on the card and someone bids on the card by the time the seller gets to his email. What came first - the bid or the email to end the auction early? Semantics.... It's irritating when an auction is ended early but everyone has the opportunity to email the seller to do the same thing. I would have to figure that a smart seller might at least wait until there is a day left before accepting an offer to end the auction early because if ONE person is going to make some type of insane offer (which could very well be in line with the actual market value) then there might be others that want the card at the same price. Let'em slug it out in the auction arena, that's what it's there for. Besides, I will avoid a seller that continually ends auctions early. If I see something that I really like I email the seller and ask them up front if they would end the auction early if someone gave them a great offer. If they say yes then I just watch the item, if they say absolutely not then I'll probably bid on it and watch it at the end of the auction (time permitting). One last comment - if you email the seller to end the auction early and someone screws you by telling the seller that they could have gotten more for the card then that's just too bad, it's part of the game. I suppose if you're smart enough you'll tell the seller to end the auction and BIN it at your offering price so you that you have ebay backing you up if the seller attempts to reneg on the BIN offer. Besides, would you really want to deal with a seller that agrees to sell it off of ebay and then renegs because of an email from someone stating they could have gotten more?

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:17 AM

Posted By: Greg EcklundSo Jason, someone who makes an offer that closes down an auction that many of his "friends" may be watching is not giving a dagger in the back to any number of interested bidders who want to play by the rules? As far as I am concerned any offer made to end an auction early is total BS - put your offer in the little box on the line where it says "Your maximum bid" and let the best offer win. I have never offered to end an auction early and never will, but I'm with Leon in one respect - I will never fire the first shot, but if someone closes down something I'm watching I have no qualms about returning fire.

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:21 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestLeon, I think that is perfectly fine. If I've been waiting patiently to put in a final bid on an item I want, and someone gets the seller to end early, I don't see a problem with contacting the person and asking them what they sold it for (but they will almost always lie). However, I will not deal with the person at that point. I've made offline deals with sellers and then had the item yanked out from under me because of an unseen offline bidding war with other board members who got into the fray late, and I'm not into that. If you make a deal, it's a deal - that's the way men do business. If you back out of a deal, you're a pussy and I'm through talking with you...period.

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:26 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestGreg, I understand what you are saying, but ebay has so many shady sellers with cool items, that you have to be prepared to play the game if you really want something. Sometimes I ask a seller to add a BIN of their choice - I typically do this when a seller appears to be clueless or doesn't normally sell that type of item - I don't do it to rip them off, but rather to make sure they understand that I'm dead serious about the item and that they SHOULD NOT end the auction early for someone else. These sellers will almost always ask "what are you willing to pay" or they will say "no". If they ask my price, I give it to them, but I insist on the "BIN" just so I don't have to deal with board members jumping in to break up the deal. I DO NOT ask sellers to end auctions early when they already have bids.

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:42 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeAll of you have very good points. I do it for 2 reasons: It happens to me all of the time and I lose stuff I want, #2, it gives the guys like Ray and myself who can't afford to go against the wealthy people in the hobby. Thanks Judge, I agree totally, an auction should be treated the same whether there are bids or not. And yes, who is to say when my offer was sent? This one was sent before any bid was placed but it wouldn't have stopped me anyway. Remember, there could be 10 watchers and 20 snipes set up to hit an auction with no bids, that should be treated the same as if there is a bid on it. Sorry leon, this is one thing I disagree with you on. Another thing I disagree with you on is that you would do it to me again, I can tell you, I would not do it to you after I saw that you won an item. I guess I shouldn't have challenged the Lion in his jungle. Jason, trust me, I learned the hard way awhile ago not to turn my back.

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:48 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestDan, I think you are wrong on one point - waiting snipes should not be treated the same as a bid that has already been placed. People who snipe are taking a chance. People who bid are letting the seller know they are serious. You should not interfere with an auction that has bids.

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:51 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeI respect your point Scott. Dan.

Archive

11-01-2005, 09:57 AM

Posted By: quani also learned it the hard way. i binned one of dan's (e105 fielding wagner)item at his listed price, he sent me an empty envelope after receiving a higher offer from botn after the auction ended...and tried to claim insurance. i feel for dan and all his usps problems. i have made offers to sellers to end auctions, but only if there were no bids..."if there is still no bids by the time u read this..."

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsRegarding his statement about people who back out of deals! He is correct - a deal is a deal. I have had several deals broken with me in the past several months. The only times (2 times) I have ever broken deals were when the seller and I had an original deal, then the seller came back stating they needed more money for a card or cards. At first I agreed. Then, after thinking about how they broke a deal, I felt like Scott F. - a deal is a deal, and if they cannot stick to the original deal, then I don't want to deal! Breaking a deal is definitely worse than trying to buy something cheap and have a seller end an auction early!

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Brian E.Quan, if true, that's just plain wrong. Not to mention a possible federal offense. Brian E.

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:05 AM

Posted By: leonDid I read that correctly? Dan sent you an empty envelope? Did it look like could have been opened and re-shut? ps....be careul here too.....that would be a Federal Offense since it's the US mail.....I think....

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestAfter all is said and done, remember that this is "flea-bay" we are talking about. While there are rules that we are under ethical obligations to respect, you must remember that many buyers and sellers really feel like ebay is just a means to "make contact" and ultimately anything goes. You have to make your own decisions as to what is right or wrong, and what you can tolerate. It has increased my own enjoyment of the hobby, so I'm fine with it overall. My personal preference would be that sniping did not exist and buyers and sellers were required to put up credit card numbers as collateral - if an a buyer ended a certain percentage of their auctions early...they are banned. If a seller can prove tampering...banned. If a seller or buyer backs out of an auction that goes to completion, their credit card on file is debited. Trust me - ebay DOES NOT want that kind of integrity in their auctions as all the hicks and thieves would disappear...with their money. As long as you do not spill beer in your keyboard, you should be okay.

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:20 AM

Posted By: Trevor HockingWell here it is boys and girls, the hobby at it's worst. Greed and jealousy has reared its ugly head. I hate to see when people jump on the morally right pedestal just make them seem like an angel. This hobby is just one big sin, with all the coveting, desire, and greed rolled up in a big wad of $100's. I don't even post hear anymore because of all the bickering, complaining about grading companies, and what's fake on ebay, but I read everyday. I can hear the reply now good reddens. I have just recently found the chat room. It's a lot more civil and fun. I recommend you come and check it out. I just wanted to defend the seller here as he is a nice guy and isn't trying to screw anyone. I know that's not what is being questioned here but what is, ending an item early, I don't believe one person here when they say would never or have never tried to end an auction early with other bids on it. Now I personally believe that you have to be high bidder at the time you get the auction closed, but hay that's what I think. Do I make the rules, YES, but just for my hobby fun. WOW that was weird, it's been a long time seance I have wrote hobby and fun in the same sentence. Like I said, it's like a swap-meet, they (the seller) have the right to do what ever they want with THERE items. I have no problem with other people emailing the seller with a higher offers, the problem I have is when they email them with a fake offer and when they get what they want and the seller re-lists THEY DON'T EVEN PLACE ONE BID!!!!! Oh well this is where cards have gone right now so play the game or change sports right. By the way I would also like to say that Dan has been nothing but kind to me in all my dealings with him. He and his Father brought back a lot of great memories of me and my family collecting together. The funny thing is so much is lost when you don't have the personal interaction anymore, and when you do finally meet at the National you A. Have so much resentment built up you never really get to find out that they are great people or B. You sit down and talk about collecting 33 Goudeys with a guy who got them straight from the pack back in 33. Man look at this thing sorry for the BLAH BLAH BLAH I'm done posting again. I'm sure I won't be missed. I'll be in the chat room if you need me HEHE CHATers RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:41 AM

Posted By: tbobFirst off, I have never shut down an auction of mine that had bids and rarely sold a card on ebay and shut it down when there were no bids. Secondly, I have contacted sellers to ask if they would end an auction early when it was something I desperately needed, if there were no bids or only my bid. All that said, I think there is a lot of hypocrisy going on here and it makes me sick. I had someone once pull the same stunt on me 3 years ago when I won a rare card by making the seller a reasonable offer on a card I needed badly and didn't want to lose on a snipe. The seller was contacted and told he would be kicked off ebay (a blatant lie) if he completed the deal. He got scared, cancelled our contract (and yes I am an attorney too and believe that there was tortious conduct on the part of this interferer) and the card was re-listed. I was sniped and the card sold for not much more than I offered. I was able a year later to win the exact same card in Barry Sloate's auction (Barry had nothing to do with any of this by the way) and paid about $20 more than I would have paid originally, no big deal as the card is rare. The bottom line is the lying scum who intimidated the seller with intentionally false and baseless threats about having him kicked off ebay forever. The fact he is a member of the 54Forum really disappointed me. I have since forgiven but not forgotten this. The bottom line is that although I consider almost everyone here a friend, I don't like the hypocrisy going on. I will tell you right now that if I spot a card I need to complete a set which I have worked on 5 years, I am going to make a generous offer to buy the card and have him end the auction. I am not going to be a hypocrite and say I won't do it. I hope the card has no bids but regardless I will make the effort. Maybe you can draw a distinction between that situation and Dan's jumping on a real deal when he saw it but if not, just label me as one of the bad guys too. I always try to avoid bidding on cards where friends are bidding also, if I can, and try to treat everyone fairly with deals and trades. But I will not take the easy road and say I would never do this.

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:47 AM

Posted By: leonThat's fine that you do that. Just know that if I wanted that card too then I am going to email him a very generous offer and try to interrupt the deal. The fact you might get them to end it does not stop me from wanting the card too....I guess I can just be the bad guy here...Won't be the first time.... No hidden agenda here....and this is not personal...it's just the game....best regards

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:49 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestHey Tbob, "hypocrisy" means that someone preaches one thing and does another. Give us an example please.

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:52 AM

Posted By: tbobLeon- I think there is a distinction between your wanting the card too and someone just wanting to prevent someone from getting a "good deal." I understand the first, not the second. I think getting the seller to add a BIN is a great idea, I appreciate someone mentioning it. And yes, I do consider you a friend, nothing personal taken... Bob

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:57 AM

Posted By: Greg EcklundIs it really that hard to believe that someone who says they have never offered and will never offer to end an auction early actually means it? I have never "needed" a card so badly that I feel I have to step on others to get it, and if I ever start getting that attitude I should just sell my collection because the fun will have ceased.

Archive

11-01-2005, 10:58 AM

Posted By: tbobScott- A specific example of someone being hypocritical might be chastizing Dan for having a seller end an auction early and selling a card to him when they have done it themselves in the past. But what I am trying to get across is exactly what Adam alluded to, that some posters are claiming the moral high ground and yet don't deal with others in that same manner. Bob

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:06 AM

Posted By: tbobGreg- I understand your point and respect it. In the last 6 or 7 years I have made an offer a couple of times to have an auction ended early, once on a set completing card and one other time on a card I had not seen offered in a long time. Neither card was a card that was on anyone else's "hot list" and both were relatively obscure and not in that great of demand. I didn't feel I was climbing over anyone to get the cards, I saw the card go on ebay for sale, contacted the seller and asked him what he would take for it and we contracted a sale. Did I feel badly because there MIGHT have been someone else out there who MIGHT have bid on it? No. Would I do it on any card other than a set completing situation? Probably not. After reading all these posts I think if that situation ever presented itself again I would ask the seller to add a BIN to the listing though.... Bob

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:10 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestA problem that I frequently see on this board is that people with lower ethics find it impossible to believe that people with higher ethics actually practice them. Kind of like a thief who can't believe his honest buddy won't help him with a crime.

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:10 AM

Posted By: tbobI met Dan for the first time at the National this summer and came away having thoroughly enjoyed the experience. On the flip side, I have dealt with Scott on several occasions and also consider him to be great to deal with and a friend.

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:12 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestBob - that last post wasn't meant for you, but for the board in general. I don't know your ethical standards, but I've never had any reason to doubt they were high.

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:15 AM

Posted By: tbobThanks. i think we all need to step back and take a breath.

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:45 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI had to look back in on this string and see what merited 80+ posts. "This hobby is just one big sin, with all the coveting, desire, and greed rolled up in a big wad of $100's." That's some pretty profound and disturbing **it for a Tuesday morning, but I kind of agree in one respect, kind of disagree in another: I agree that as the prices of cards escalate and people move into collecting for whom money literally is a non-issue, the Hobby has gotten kind of gross and is inspiring some unseemly behavior. Many good old-time collectors who are not Masters of the Universe feel pressured to move fast and perhaps move in ways that they would not have considered before because of the perception that they cannot win a head to head auction with the big bucks crowd. I disagree that this trend is new in the Hobby, though. I recall rivalries, competitiveness, deal interference, coveting, desire and greed in spades in 1975. Of course, I was 10 years old then <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> What we are seeing here is no different than what we all experienced in grade school with cards, comic books, rocks, or whatever other collectibles we were chasing at the time. But now everyone participating is a well-off, middle-aged guy. Maybe we all need really is a bit of adult supervision...

Archive

11-01-2005, 11:59 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Scott, I'd like to add to your post: A problem that I frequently see on this board is that people with lower ethics find it impossible to believe that people with higher ethics actually practice them. Kind of like a thief who can't believe his honest buddy won't help him with a crime. How about "Kind of like a thief who can't believe that his honest thief buddy wont help him with a crime. Of course, this isn't being directed at anyone - it's just a joke... and no, I don't pretend to stand upon morally high ground...

Archive

11-01-2005, 02:07 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestFred, you just tied my brain in a knot! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Archive

11-01-2005, 04:41 PM

Posted By: Al Crisafulli"he sent me an empty envelope after receiving a higher offer from botn after the auction ended...and tried to claim insurance." Just have to chime in quickly about how much this type of post irritates me...completely irrelevant to the subject and designed only to cast someone in a negative light. Again, I'm still newish here, and don't mean to start trouble or jump into someone else's fight, but I hate to see a constructive debate turn into a public flogging. -Al

Archive

11-01-2005, 05:51 PM

Posted By: leonYa know...this is supposed to be chatboard to come and learn about Pre-WWII baseball cards. I am not sure this thread is in keeping with that particular focus. IS some of this stuff ok? Probably. Is a lot of it ok? Probably not. I am rethinking some of my actions too. I do consider Dan a friend (hey Dan). Do friends do what I did to friends? No. Do emotions get in the way sometimes with what is right? Probably. Are most of us very passionate about collecting? Probably. I am not sure what all of this means except that it's time to get back to cards and quit the witch hunts. If anyone on the board has never done anything wrong then they can email me and we can chat about. I doubt I get too many emails. I still will be pissed when I see auctions shut down but don't think I will try to interrupt them (for sure not when friends win them). I guess I just need to start asking everyone that sells cards I want to shut the auction down for me <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> No....on second thought maybe I won't. I just don't think it's right....and also don't think I want to treat friends the way I treated Dan. For that I apologize...but damn it.....well, never mind....Hey Dan...say HI to Dad for me.....this thread is done...regards all