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10-18-2005, 01:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>Havn't seen any T206 boxes in a long time on eBay. (Fraudulent or Real) Hopefully now, people will finally get a real understanding of how scarce these things really are. I believe they're only less than 100 boxes that survive. (Authenticated boxes) What do you think?

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10-18-2005, 04:42 PM
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader (ebay: sreader3)</b><p><br />Richard,<br /><br />This is a topic I have always wondered about. I'm not sure anybody can know how many unopened packs having T206 cards, for example, are out there. This is because it seems like there are ways to know for sure that a particular pack DOES NOT have a card (e.g. tax stamp later than 1910) but impossible to know for sure that a particular pack DOES have a card (e.g. 1909 or 1910 tax stamp does not guarantee there is a card, at least as I understand it).<br /><br />On the subject of unopened T206-branded packs, I have a couple of questions that maybe you or some other person in the know on this board can answer:<br /><br />1. Is it possible for a pack that has more than 10 cigarettes to contain a T206 card? If so, which brands?<br /><br />2. Is it possible for a pack that self-identifies with other than a T206 factory/state to have a T206 card? The ones I'm thinking about are Sweet Caporal 10-packs that self-identify with Factory 30, North Carolina. We all know some T206 cards came from Factory 30, New York. Is it possible that Factory 30, North Carolina packs might contain a T206 card from Factory 30, New York? Or was Factory 30 moved from New York to North Carolina after the T206 production run such that these packs will never have a T206 card?<br /><br />Any insights on these quesitons would be appreciated.<br /><br />Scot<br />

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10-18-2005, 09:09 PM
Posted By: <b>pete</b><p>is an empty Sweet Caporal, factory no. 25, 2nd district of virginia...but with a tax stamp of 1903...it contained 10 cigarettes and looks just like the authenticated ones that contained a t206 card. the tax stamp has the act of march 2, 1901 on it as well. however i have been told by members that "yes it could of been since tax stamps were used for several years" and "no because it doesnt have the correct tax stamp, 1909-10"...so, im guessing we'll never know...but i keep it since it is pretty cool and its still affiliated with the t206 cards.<br />pete-<br /><br />oh, i say empty because it does have 7 old cigarettes in it, but i dont think they are original. <br><br>my best pitch was the one that made it to the plate!

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10-18-2005, 10:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>A true T206 pack would have a tax stamp dated 1909-1911. It should have the right factory number, district & state as well. It should have only 10 cigarettes in a slide & shell box. Exception: Polar Bear (pouch) Ty Cobb (Tin) and El Principe De Gales (Pill box type) If it has overprinting on the tax stamp it should read 1910 or 1911. <br /><br />Any overprinting before 1909 or after 1911 wouldn't have a T206 card inside. Tax stamp should be a Dewitt/Clinton. If it says "Class A 20" at the top of the tax stamp, there won't be a T206 inside.<br /><br />Havn't seen a box yet on eBay in the last 2 years that doesn't match up to this info.<br /><br />

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10-18-2005, 11:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />If you are talking about already opened packs that likely contained T206s which have survived through the years then I'm sure the number is much higher that what you've stated. (I wasn't sure if you were talking strictly about unopened packages or not).<br /><br />I have about 10 or so Piedmont/Sweet Cap boxes myself which have the correct factory and 1909 tax stamp for T-206 distribution that were part of a "find" of cards my father and I came into 30 years ago.<br /><br />If you don't mind an offshoot question to your original post. I'm curious how one would "fully authenticate" an opened box?<br /><br />Opened boxes, at least mine, generally have the middle of the tax stamp missing since it has fallen off of the slide shell portion of the box long ago.<br /><br />Because the middle of the tax stamp is missing, it is impossible to determine if there is/was an overprint date on the stamp or not.<br /><br />Given the uncertainty of an overprint date, does that throw into question whether or not a particular box had the potential of once housing a T-206 or would the correct brand/factory and 1909 tax stamp be "enough" to give an opened box that potential?<br /><br />

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10-18-2005, 11:40 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>I have 8 boxes myself. All of which have full tax stamps. (Tax stamps are on the top or bottom of the box) The only others boxes that would be difficult to authenticate on an opened box would be one that has a tax stamp of 1909-1991 without any overprinting. I've heard that persons have purposely removed the overprinting on certain boxes that had the wrong overprinting to deceive.<br /><br />Edited to add my boxes are the best ones to have. All the right stuff to prove without a doubt that they had cards in them. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-18-2005, 11:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>I enjoy these threads about unopened T206 packs, but seem to see more information about those that DON'T contain a card. Roughly how many members here have possesion of packs with a card inside, or is it not possible to tell? Any scans?<br><br>A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. - English Proverb

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10-18-2005, 11:55 PM
Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>I was just curious what collectors like yourself would consider "authentic" boxes.<br /><br />In the case of the ones in my collection, they were used over the decades as storage for various tobacco and even caramel cards down through the years until we obtained them so the boxes were opened, closed and reopened undoubtably many times.<br /><br />With all of that use, very few of the boxes that I have still have the middle portion of the tax stamp remaining attached to the slide shell.<br /><br />I understand where you say that would be cause for suspecion but I would also expect that it is quite common since the stamp had to be broken for the slide shell to open and shut.<br /><br />Thanks for your response to my post!<br /><br />Scott

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10-19-2005, 12:02 AM
Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>If I can, I'll scan some of my boxes @ 300% tomorrow morning. You'll be able to see the complete tax stamps with overprinting along with the factory, district & state.<br />

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10-19-2005, 12:03 AM
Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Here is one... Scott, in response to your question, most of the T-206 boxes, in general, had their tax stamps affixed to the back of the box as opposed to over the "slide" portion. This, of course, depends on the brand. However, even slide and shell boxes (such as Piedmont), usually have the 1909 date portion on the front panel as opposed to the slide section of the box. Subsequently, even a broken box would have a 1909 tax stamp showing, and there should be some overprint ink showing as well. Lastly, I want to point out that 1909 tax stamps are almost always found w/o overprinting. They are the "best" packs to authenticate. In 1910, the tax stamps were again updated and the 1910 stamp was used. Very few boxes 1909 were crossed over in later years and overprinted. On the other hand, a lot of 1903 tax stamped boxes can be found with '07 and '09 overprints, and 1910 tax stamps can be found overprinted all the way to 1919. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1129694572.JPG">

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10-19-2005, 12:28 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>Clearly shows overprinting of 1911. Right factory, district & state. Without a doubt, this box had a T206 in it.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1082345913" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1082345913</a>

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10-19-2005, 03:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>I don't think there is any question about that but I was hoping that you had an example of a box where the tax stamp was placed over the end of the box where the stamp would have been broken when opening the slide shell.<br /><br />All of the Piedmont and Sweet Cap boxes I have had the stamps over the end of the box and not in the middle as the one you've scanned in does.<br /><br />Out of curiousity, and I'd like to hear from Jon Canfield on this as well, what is your opinion on a box that has the 1909-1910 tax stamp but no overprint date at all?<br /><br />Here is a scan of a couple of my boxes. The Hassan has the complete stamp with an early 1912 overprint. The Piedmont box on the left has enough of the stamp to show that there was no overprint date at all and the Piedmont box on the right has the stamp over the end of the box so that each side has a portion of the stamp but the middle is missing because its fallen off the slide shell.<br /><br /><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~jillmay5/baseball/misc/SampleBoxes0001.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~jillmay5/baseball/misc/SampleBoxes0002.jpg"><br /><br />

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10-19-2005, 03:35 PM
Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>With such uncertain items and a hobby/business with such a high level of fraudulent activity, has anyone or does anyone know about perhaps finding out it's contents inside by using...say an X-Ray machine of some sorts? <br /><br />I find this thread very helpful and thanks to the contributors involved.<br /><br />DJ

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10-19-2005, 04:02 PM
Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>My Piedmont and Sweet Caporal also have tax stamps like yours. (On the side of box) But, my Piedmont has "See that seal is not broken" on the end of the box, and "Allen & Ginter Branch" on the long side of the box. (Factory 42!) My Sweet Caporal doesn't have overprinting, so this one would be questionable as to whether or not it had a card in it. But everything else makes me believe that it did.