Mastronet Auction [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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10-14-2005, 12:28 PM

Posted By: RobertWell it official I have been outbid on all 16 of my lots (ALL T206 and T205's). I bid what I thought was the SMR value minus 20% and 13 of the lots have already more then doubled the SMR value and in a few cases have tripled. Also I have had zero luck on EBAY lately T205,s & 6's have been going through the roof at least doubling SMR. I think you can throw out these price guides because they are way off on what things are selling. I would like to find a dealer who sells there graded cards at SMR so I can at least get something.

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10-14-2005, 12:38 PM

Posted By: AlanI couldn't agree with you more. I thought the purpose of the Mastro "Classic" auction was to offer material that has a lower price for collectors with tight budgets and also to accept material that wasn't high end enough for their "premier" auctions. I'm not sure their idea is working, though.... Alan

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10-14-2005, 12:46 PM

Posted By: scott ingoldAgreed, I have been outbid on everything on ebay the past 2 weeks. Price's are nuts lately on the t206's. I do have 2 active bids still holding on with maestro though. Example : I bought a gai 7 common t206 3 weeks ago for 213.00. The other night i had bis=ds in on 2 different 7's at 259.00. Both went for well over 4 and 5 hundred. Again out of control. P.S. I did win the red hindu hummel for 600.00 in a psa 3 but that was after the seller lowered in considerably.

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10-14-2005, 12:47 PM

Posted By: jay behrensGood thing I am too poor to worry about whether or not I can win a Mastro lot. I struggle to win beat up, crappy eBay cards that the MAstro crew wipes their feet on <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Jay Last year there was a fistfight between fans and players at a professional basketball game. Not to be outdone, the National Hockey League has announced that not only will several fans be beaten every period, but one lucky fan each game will be run over by the Zamboni.

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10-14-2005, 01:58 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think the Classic Auction is in fact working very well for Mastronet, it's just not working too well for the bidders. I'm not sure they ever implied the purpose of the auction was to give things away below market, and the bidders have nobody to blame but themselves for the high prices. Why did the N162 set have 40 bids in the first three hours? It wasn't Mastronet's fault. People bid as if the world is coming to end and they will never have another chance to buy these vintage cards; as such, the prices keep getting higher.

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10-14-2005, 02:46 PM

Posted By: LarryThose of you that think the SMR vintage prices are accurate are quite wrong, they have never been adjusted correctly, they are a guide and percentages show that there are much more demand for vintage than a 1986 Fleer Jordan or 1982 Rookie Ripken, 1984 Clemens, Topps Buybacks and signed "created rarities" etc.. which are way OVERPRICED..The truth is we as dealers and collectors should look at smr and beckett as a guide base, then multiply it or deduct from it...not a price list..as a dealer, a nice T, E or N card is so rare that it is frivolous to think a 1986 Jordan HIGH GRADE where they made tens on thousands of these should be "worth" more than a T206 HOFer but because SMR says it is should mean nothing... logic and demand should dictate the price, not a corporation that has really no interest in actually keeping up with reality. T, Early R cards, N, E cards are fabulous pieces of history, I would love to buy good quality cards at 10% ABOVE SMR if it were still possible..Mastronet does a great job just getting these cards available to a hungry and smarter dealer and collector base, rarity and beauty should always be valued over modern corporate greed.

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10-14-2005, 03:29 PM

Posted By: barrysloateSpeaking of the SMR, it is frustrating that the section on vintage cards doesn't better reflect actual market prices. I can understand that the yearly guides can't anticipate trends over 12 months, but a monthly guide has the ability to stay on top of prices. And yet while vintage cards are skyrocketing, I get the SMR each month and 98% of the prices remain unchanged. Doesn't somebody who is in charge of compiling numbers know that E-cards, among others, often sell 3x-5x the prices that are listed? That's just showing indifference to the marketplace, so why even bother. Do others feel that the SMR could do a much better job?

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10-14-2005, 04:49 PM

Posted By: Paul StrattonI'm with Barry on this one. They are so out of touch it is unbelievable. They raise the prices on pre-war psa 9's and psa 8's...huh...there are no 9's and very few 8's. Doesn't make much sense. They should have values on everything up to maybe psa 6. These are the cards that are being actively traded, yet they don't have any prices for anything less than PSA 5. They have no clue.

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10-14-2005, 06:04 PM

Posted By: barrysloatePaul- That is exactly the point. Because so many of these cards trade regularly, it would be so easy for them to keep a database and update it. If certain prices skew a bit there are statistical averages they could use to come up with their adjusted monthly prices.

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10-14-2005, 06:24 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI see no reason to "deal" on nice N, T and E cards right now. Realistically, if I cannot get the price I want on them, I sit back and hold them and the price I wanted becomes a low price. I see it over and over. Cards are being bid through the roof because there is a finite, small supply and more vintage collectors than ever. Also totally agree on the modern stuff. It is way overvalued in the guides. It should tell you something when there are hundreds of specimens available at any given time, namely that buying the card is like playing musical chairs--as long as you have an escape, great, but the music is gonna stop and someone is gonna fall on his butt.

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10-14-2005, 07:11 PM

Posted By: Darren J. Duetif a PRICE GUIDE cannot stay on top of current prices, then that price guide should not print prices

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10-14-2005, 09:59 PM

Posted By: LarryI see that several of you agree with me that there is an extroadinary void regarding SMR and beckett...I feel that the basic overall situation regarding pre war cards PSA 4-8 is that based on the issue, actual values are somewhere around 1.5 to 3X SMR but on issues like 1932 US Caramels, E90-1, N162's, T205 HOFers, low population singles in HIGH GRADES etc..they could be 3-5X SMR!.. The only really accurate way to determine market is to use e bay as one bench mark, look at last 90 days history on that issue and average it, then look at major auction results for similar issues...then look at SMR as a starting point and you can get a good read..Sometimes a major auction creates a hyped result due to 2 bidders bidding up item but e bay shows bid history and if 4-5 bidders are in similar ranges, that is a good barometer..as far as someone bidding because of a percentage of SMR...they really need to do their homework better..Issues such as E,N,T and early R cards may never again be determined through a price guide but rather by good research and instinct...Post war issues after 1970 ...unless they are MINT 9 or GEM MINT 10's or regional test issues are really overpriced and not realistic in SMR...they trade for percentages lower as prior stated and should never be put into the same category as "vintage cards" issued in packs or products..we played with those cards, traded them, flipped them and had fun with them, that is why nice one's are rare...the biggest joke are these corporate manipulated recent limited edition cards selling for hundreds and thousands..

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10-14-2005, 10:18 PM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)Trying to track all sales of SGC, PSA and GAI graded vintage cards could be a full time job for someone. I couldn't imagine that anyone would do this voluntarily and I couldn't imagine the big 3 tracking this because there would be NO INCOME generated by tracking this data. People might say that a more accurate portrayal of the hobby spending habits could increase the grading services revenue by having more people have their cards encapsulated. Unless there's an immediate ROI I would venture to guess that the big 3 would have no interest in collecting this data.

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10-14-2005, 11:37 PM

Posted By: RobertI an a web designer of large membership based sites all income producing and have been contemplating whether or not to do a site based on baseball cards. It would be for pre-war cards only and you will be able to open a profile of a certain card say a T206 Cobb red portrait and see a compiled list of the last years sales of that card graded by one of the big three that have sold on Ebay and through the major auction house. It would give details on the grading company, grade, date, price and back type when it applies. It would be for members only that can access the information and of course there would be some other added value features. My question is this who out there would be willing to pay a monthly fee and how much shuld be charged. There is a lot of work needed to be put into the site as well as to maintain it. Your feed back will be a determining factor as to whether or not I where to persue this venture. I think it would be a valuable tool for everyone and would be accurate in the price trends unlike the SMR publications. I would also be looking for some people who would be interested in be apart of this venture by adding to the database.

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10-15-2005, 06:34 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI would pay!!!!!!!!!!!

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10-15-2005, 06:51 AM

Posted By: David SeabornI have silently tracked the sale of every pre-1916 card slabbed by on of the big three grading companies for three years now. This includes all eBay auctions and all major auction houses. It is close to a full time job, but it can (and is) being done. Trends can be made, even analysis of prices between grading companies for the same card. We'll be doing much more with these data in the future. Needless to say, SMR is way off on most issues. Robert - send me an email. Dave

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10-15-2005, 07:20 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think a great number of people would pay for information from a database that more accurately reflects the market. I agree that sometimes a price for an individual card is extreme and will not reflect all future transactions. But simply reporting that card x sold for this amount at this point in time is useful and collectors can assess the information as they choose. The more cards of a similar nature transact, the closer we would come to determining what they are really worth. I would pay for such a service and I think many others would too. Of course, how much would a subscription for a year cost? I have an auction in November and would be happy to have those prices put into a database. I can already tell you even before the auction starts that some prices will be astronomical, most will be as expected, and a few will be disappointing. But it will still reflect the market at that moment in time. It's a project that is long overdue, and I think it would be very well received.

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10-15-2005, 09:34 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)IF the big 3 grading services wont do this and SCD can't do this (limited resources) then a collaborative effort by many collectors would be the key. Dave said he's accumulated a lot of data of pre-1916 and mentioned that it's almost a full time job in itself. When you add in all of the Goudeys and other common issues of the 30's and early 40's then it will be a challenge and obviously something that must be done my several people. The information would be interesting to see, call the effort CARD (Collectors Accumulated Resource Data) or something to that affect. The only question is what will it evolve into in the future? Will it become a collectors price guide service that can be widely distributed? Will it become another Beckett Guide? Are there enough vintage collectors to support such an effort? Initially, the information will intrigue.

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10-15-2005, 12:27 PM

Posted By: Richard MassonI would be willing to pay for this data.

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10-15-2005, 02:42 PM

Posted By: John_B_CaliforniaWhy hasn't Ebay ever packaged historical prices into a price guide? What better price guide could there be? I've never understood why they don't do more with it.

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10-15-2005, 10:57 PM

Posted By: Jim FIf I remember correctly, ebay through a third party did or still does have a site you can go to and retrieve about 6 months worth of prices for items. I remember using it in the past. It highlights the highs and lows and gives you the average price. I think you get a couple free cracks at it and then there is a monthly fee for this research. If I remember right it is in some type of service package that costs about $50? a month. As a full time dealer I would gladly pay for this type of info for vintage cards. I don't think it would be a viable business though unless you included the 50's and 60's cards (and a bit of hockey). Jim

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10-16-2005, 05:57 AM

Posted By: honus3415The Price Guide is a thing of the past. Try as anyone might to come up with a solution which would reflect accurate values, no solution exists. The influx of buyers (those with more money than they know what to do with) into the vintage card market will forever skew any reasonable pricing figures that could be compiled. You and I both know people, who's "immediate desire" to satisfy their lust for objects is not hindered by any price tag, or at least any price tag that your average collectors would deem excessive. These people are used to "instant gratification" and money is the means to that temporary fix. The inflated prices are a result of their false sense of love for the hobby. Who will be the next Mr X and become bored with the hobby their spending is destroying? As long as there are buyers in the market place with no incentive or cap on their spending, there will be purchase prices well above what is logical and reasonable to the marketplace. What an item may be truely worth can no longer be judged by it's sale value. I would compare this to baseball players in a marketplace with no salary cap. Should the Steinbrenners exit the marketplace, what would happen to salaries? Two major factors have lead to this present situation, card grading and internet sales. No longer does a "collector" need to know diddly about the hobby (the cards are graded and identified), nor do they have to dedicate any serious time compiling a collection (one can just hit the enter key on a keyboard and packages start piling up on their doorstep). And as Yogi Berra once thought....If it weren't for the people with money, nothing would cost anything. The true QUALITY of a collection is determined by the hours each person spends creating and enjoying it, not by the dollars spent on it before it is secured in the vault.

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10-16-2005, 07:08 AM

Posted By: leonvery well said....

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10-16-2005, 07:20 AM

Posted By: Paul Lehr Well said. I have always said that SMR, Beckett and all the other price guides are just that, GUIDES. Those prices are not set in stone and a card is worth what someone is willing to pay for it on any givin day even if the amount is 10x what the SMR or any other guide says the item should be worth. This is why I have never used price guides and I never will. I just bid or what it's worth to me to own the card and if I win great and if not there will be more another day.

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10-16-2005, 07:26 AM

Posted By: barrysloateA guide can never dictate the price any card will sell for, but the term "guide" suggests that the price it lists will help guide us into making a decision. In most cases however, the guide doesn't do this. If anything, the less knowledgable would be taken to the cleaners if they sold a collection for a percentage of guide. In that respect, it is both worthless and dangerous.

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10-16-2005, 07:35 AM

Posted By: warshawlawHonus, I'm philosophically with you on the issue of wealthy accumulators skewing the price structure. However, I have to disagree on the issue of who the buyers are. There are a lot of guys who are market-busters not because they are unschooled accumulators grabbing anything not nailed down but because they genuinely love the hobby and pay whatever it takes to get the cards they want for their collections. As a collector you have to respect that, even if it frustrates the heck out of you as a competitor for the same cards. And for the record, just so the apologists for the upper class don't get their panties in a wad and start with the usual ad hominem attacks, it ticks me off to no end that I cannot afford to continue to collect cards that I've been collecting since I was a kid not because I bear any animus towards the people who are bidding them up but because I miss being able to buy the cards!

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10-16-2005, 07:48 AM

Posted By: LarryMr. Sloate's last post is absolutely correct...A price "guide" is just that a guide, not a reprinted bunch of jibberish with some foudation of market trends..Lets face it, who came up with these arbitrary numbers to begin with, was this a PSA research effort? If SMR was founded with accuracy, there can be no doubt to anyone that these prices should be updated at least once every 6 months and recent cards that never sell at SMR should be adjusted lower so that novice collectors are not ripped off. Beckett is too vague as higher graded cards are not even reflected and although the catalog is great for specific checklisting..it also fails to do the job intended. Collectors or Dealers that are pumping money in the hobby make the hobby stronger, not weaker. I know there are purists that wish they could go back to the days when a 33 Ruth near mint was $500..I was one of them and I was there when you could buy stacks of vintage cards on table top shows with rubber bands. I was there when Den Collectors Den came out with PVC plastic sheets meant for cards, not stamps.. But just like 25 cent pizza(NY style!)...50 cent gallon of gas etc., vintage cards are truly rare, there are many of us that respect the history and appreciate the aesthetic of the cards itself and prices will go up as long as people care who Cy Young was or Mickey Mantle or want a MINT 9 1955 Bowman. When the next couple of generations come into their turn, maybe they will care, maybe they won't and prices willreflect that trend. Major grading services with all their faults serve a valued purpose, they keep most counterfeit and bogus material from being sold as top shelf, even with their faults which can be destructive at times. Without the influx of good dealers and collectors, material would not have surfaced and people would not be able to make a living, they are an important part of hobby..for those that criticize this influx of money...why not criticize your house going up in value..Are you willing to sell your house at 1969 market prices because you are a hobby purist?, I doubt that..Probably it is frustrating that all of us WANT something we can afford to pay for or we feel some envy, there is always someone that has deeper pockets...I am not rich, I collect and deal cards but I am respectful to those that are collectors that are willing to pay for the cards because they can, I am not happy with crooked dealers on e bay or at shows that prey on us all with no morals.

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10-17-2005, 08:20 AM

Posted By: Charlie BarokasRobert, I would agree that Mastro's auction prices are in the stratosphere. Look no further than Andy Madec's latest internet Auction to find some relative bargain prices <a href="http://www.andymadecauctions.com/auction.asp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.andymadecauctions.com/auction.asp</a>. Charlie

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10-17-2005, 08:58 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestI keep waiting for cards to start heading down again, but it's been a while. Not giving up, but I can't afford to participate fully in this hobby at the current prices. ...temporarily moved from cardboard to flannel and leather.

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10-17-2005, 09:57 AM

Posted By: barrysloateScott- I think there's a chance some of the hotter sets will cool and level off, but waiting for a downturn in vintage cards may not be that realistic. Maybe a tiny drop here and there, but the demand seems insatiable. I think the only hope is that so many collectors decide to sell due to the current high levels that the market becomes saturated. But for every person who drops out of the hobby, two richer ones come in. It's a daunting situation for collectors who work within a budget.

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10-17-2005, 10:02 AM

Posted By: davidi have been collecting n and t issues for almost twenty years and while the prices i have paid always seem high or above book the prices never dip or go down and i see no reason for that trend not to continue.

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10-17-2005, 12:15 PM

Posted By: warshawlawis if we have a truly horrendous worldwide event, like a virulent strain of bird flu going pandemic or a full blown oil embargo, that results in a major depression in the industrialized countries, which will crater everything except guns and gold. Even then, I would expect that like any other human commodity, prices on cards will rebound after the event winds down. Barring a cataclysm, I think we are likely to see prices steady, perhaps retract a bit at worst. I see no macro-economic reason to sell off rare old cards right now.

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10-17-2005, 12:37 PM

Posted By: barrysloatePlease, no catalclysms, at least not until my auction is over. Then it's O.K.

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10-17-2005, 12:51 PM

Posted By: William BrumbachShould I start including guns and gold as payment options for my future eBay auctions? Especially now that eBay will no longer be allowing sellers to explicitly request cash as a payment option? Oh yeah, back to the original post, all but two of the auctions I had my eye on have gone beyond my $1000 budget for Mastro. A few others are closing in but I think I may get one or two items out of this at not-so-exorbitant prices at the end. I hope...

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10-17-2005, 01:13 PM

Posted By: LarryIf it gets down to gold and guns, I rather have my T206 Cobbs and pray. Vintage Cards as long as their is interest in history are better than gold, a piece of metal is not as attractive as a 1933 babe ruth and not as rare.... Gold is the ultimate manipulated market, you cannot eat it, you can only carry so much in your briefcase, there is tons of it at the vaults of the fed reserve... and there are very few times where I can be sentimental about a piece of metal that does not corrode. Land is still the best, at least you can grow a garden with vegetables and flowers....