I hope this isn't true, but today someone told me that more than [Archive]

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10-01-2005, 09:47 PM

Posted By: identify7half of the players in MLB are not citizens of this country. It could be true, but I hope not. America's Pastime just wouldn't have the same ring to it for me. Does anyone know?

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10-01-2005, 09:50 PM

Posted By: Josh K.sounds about right. more and more american kids are playing soccer and baseball has become much more of a worldwide sport.

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10-01-2005, 10:18 PM

Posted By: Jim ClarkeWonder what the percentages are in Hockey and Basketball as well? At least being from the South.. We don't have to worry about NASCAR racing! "WEE AH" as Hughie jeenings would say! JC

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10-02-2005, 12:32 AM

Posted By: rickAll it means its that you now have the best players in the world playing baseball in America. It enhances the sport.

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10-02-2005, 12:35 AM

Posted By: zachthey're legally in America so why can't they legally work an American job ? Baseball is America's pastime, but face it America is changing and not what it was in the 20's.

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10-02-2005, 02:00 AM

Posted By: peteas long as they dont come here "illegally" by defecting or something...come here legally and maybe be forced to become an US legal resident or citizen and be allowed to make big bucks...dont forget, illegal, non-us residents do not pay taxes my best pitch was the one that made it to the plate!

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10-02-2005, 02:25 AM

Posted By: tbobSoccer???? No way, the reason is that high school coaches are now demanding that their football players attend camps in the summer, ditto basketball coaches. In the South high school football has become an almost 12 month a year proposition and with AAU in late Spring and Summer, basketball is close to it also. Everyone wants to be the next Michael Jordan or Michael Vick. The real tragedy is that African Americans are no longer playing baseball. The number of Blacks in the minor and major leagues have dropped significantly, generally for the reasons above. Both Joe Morgan and Harold Reynolds have mentioned this on ESPN baseball shows a number of times...

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10-02-2005, 04:39 AM

Posted By: Sean CoeYes, my 2 nephews are African American and baseball isn't on their radar at all despite my best efforts. They play basketball 10 months out of the the year and follow pro football from draft day through the Super Bowl.

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10-02-2005, 08:26 AM

Posted By: warshawlawThat said, I think it is sad that the sport is being abandoned by the black community, but it is understandable. I think part of the explanation for the lack of black players as compared to the past is the lack of viable other sports for black athletes in the past. Basketball and football weren't available in the Jim Crow format, only baseball. Jackie Robinson played football, better than baseball. When it came to jobs, however, the black athlete had nothing else until the postwar period, and even then had little chance to make it in the other sports for about a decade. Now, the kids can choose their sport. And what sport do you think they'd choose? One where the vast majority of players are of another race or one where nearly every visible star looks and sounds like them? I think part of the issue of the changing composition of American baseball also rests with economics. Inner city and public parks baseball is a far cry from Little League baseball. It doesn't provide the level of training and support that the more expensive leagues do. I coached the parks and rec version this summer. I'd say we had roughly 50% hispanic kids with the balance nearly all white, and some black kids. It was entirely the volunteer dads who worked with the kids and we got no training. If the dad doesn't know much about technique, the kids don't get anything more than play time. "Real" Little League, by contrast, is played on other facilities that cost roughly 4x as much to get into and are "hardcore" training environments, complete with former MLB players as special instructors, coach training clinics, video clinics for the kids, multiple practices a week, backbiting pushy little league fathers, etc. My nephew was on an all-star team from his Little League and they traveled the state all summer playing tournaments against other all-star teams. And he's friggin' 6 yeas old! His league was nearly all white and all well-to-do. You also have public schools in many poorer districts cutting down their athletics programs, with baseball going fast because of the high costs of program maintenance. My point is that kids in lower income areas who go into lower income programs don't have top flight instruction, all-star teams, traveling teams, etc., and are not as likely to continue in a sport that doesn't present the same opportunities to them as basketball and football. I think you will see a lot more American-Hispanic baseball players over the next decade, because the demographics favor it. Those kids are playing the game and they are starting to hit the majors. I went to the Dodgers game with the Pirates last week. I was sitting with a big group of Burbank High School alums who were there to cheer on their classmate, the starting 2nd baseman for the Pirates, who was American-Hispanic.

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10-02-2005, 08:56 AM

Posted By: John J. GrilloI am as conservative as they come, but I think the opening thread is silly. Why would your enthusiasm for baseball be lessened because most of the batters at the plate or the pitchers throwing the ball, grew up in a different country? Who cares and it doesn't dampen my enthusiasm one bit. Roberto Clemente was my favorite player as a kid, and now David Ortiz is.

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10-02-2005, 09:30 AM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaTbob is 100% correct. One of my good friends is a Legion coach in small town Nebraska and has been coaching for a long time. He used to have no problem fielding a team, but now it is football camp, basketball camp and even the high school golf team taking precedence over baseball. It doesn't lessen my enthusiasm for the game though just because the game is more culturally integrated. I love to watch Ichiro at bat, and Big Papi is my favorite player. I also love to watch Albert Pujols.

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10-02-2005, 10:00 AM

Posted By: Stufflestreet, ChrisSo what if they are? If the best players available for the job happen to have been born outside the USA, what's the problem? For years I have had to hear that Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, et. al. weren't as good as the legend says because they never had to face down Satchell Paige or have to field down one of Oscar Charleston's flies. Then after the league was integrated, it still wasn't fair because Koufax and Gibson didn't have to deal with Sadharu Oh. Now the league is stocked with the best players it can find from across the globe and it's a problem? It seems to me that the most talented player makes the team; race, background, religion and even sexual preference has nothing to do with it. America is still a melting pot, and baseball is representative of that.

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10-02-2005, 10:10 AM

Posted By: identify7Gee guys, I do not want to be painted as a person with anti-diversity feelings. However, in my opinion, there should be a balance between wanting the best representatives which the sport has to offer, and accepting citizens from other countries as the majority of the members in our National Pastime. Although I don't want to be considered a hater of foreignors, I wish that they were citizens of this country, participating in this sport; rather than mercenaries who will sign with any team, anywhere, that bids the highest. I guess my romantic feelings about US baseball are no longer appropriate nor relevant to our current situation. Old timers often lament, and resist change. I have to get over that, I guess, before I become an old timer. Edited to add: My point was always a citizenry thing. At no time did I state that I objected to any specific group, other than non-citizens of the USA.

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10-02-2005, 10:45 AM

Posted By: Chris CountsThankfully, baseball has long been invigorated by immigrants. If you read the wonderful "The Glory Of Their Times," you'll see that a large percentage of T206 era players were second generation Irish and German immigrants whose parents couldn't understand their kids love of the American game. The book is filled with stories of kids arguing with their parents or running away from home to play ball. Where would baseball be without Honus Wagner, John McGraw, Iron Man McGinnity and others whose parents accepted a role in our society equivelant to that of Hispanics today? Or how about the wave of Italian players that flooded baseball in the 1930s and 1940s? When their parents came to America a generation before them, they faced the same challenges and prejudices encountered by Irish and German immigrants. Where would our beloved game be without Joe DiMaggio, Phil Rizzuto and Yogi Berra? So now more players come from the Dominican Republic and other Caribbean countries than any place else. From Roberto Clemente to Miguel Tejada, Latino players have embraced the game with no less enthusiasm than the first or second generation immigrants before them. Without them, I would argue baseball is a dying game. With them, the game is as fresh and invigorated as it ever was.

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10-02-2005, 11:56 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethWhat are you suggesting, a "citizenship" quota? Should it be in the aggregate, or by team? Should we eliminate Toronto from the league, or is it OK as long as they have American players? What ARE you saying?

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10-02-2005, 11:58 AM

Posted By: warshawlawYou want baseball (and baseball card collecting) to expand and prosper? Bringing in untapped fan bases is critical. LA has a huge Korean population. I was in Dodger Stadium when the first waves of Korean players came into the league and Koreatown turned out in force for every Chan Ho Park start. Routine games were selling out. Guys who could barely speak English and who obviously did not understand the game were riveted to their seats, cameras in hand, for every move Park made. Choi has done wonders for marketing the game among the Korean community too this year. OK, Dodgers are a bad example this year <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> but you know what I mean. These folks come for their countrymen but more and more stay for the fun as they get into the game. It's always been that way for immigrant communities and baseball: first comes the ethnic pride then the true fan base develops.

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10-02-2005, 12:06 PM

Posted By: identify7I am saying: "Here is a subject, what are your thoughts?" I am not contending that I have a well thought out plan to re-Americanize baseball, I do not even contend that any such action is warranted. I do note however, that the American Pastime may contain less than 50%American's. And for reasons which I have not fully analyzed, regret that status.

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10-02-2005, 12:06 PM

Posted By: Dan LundriganI have to agree with John J. Grillo although I do not consider myself conservative.I want to see the best players out there period.I don`t care if they come from another PLANET so long as they play the game right and treat it with the respect it deserves.As far as them being citizens it shouldn`t matter. Do the fans from N.F.L Europe,Hockey fans from anywhere across the globe or fans from Baseball teams in Japan feel the same way about U.S citizens playing for teams in their countries?My feelings on inner-city kids and baseball it is much easier for a city to lay down a patch of blacktop stick 2 poles in the ground and hang a couple of rims on them. Maintenence for a basketball court is nill when compared to keeping a baseball diamond in playing shape.Not to mention the amount of real estate a baseball field takes up too many fields have been paved over for a strip mall.Result is less opportunity for kids in the city to really get a chance to experience baseball.If there are no baseball diamonds around but a basketball court nearby the choice is obvious.A bunch of kids in the burbs can usually find someplace to play a pickup game or join a little league.It takes dedication and hard work from the people who coach, ref, donate cash, paint the lines and do whatever it takes to support there league for the kids in there community not just baseball but any sport.They deserve our thanks at the very least.I think so long as sports in general is being supported at the grass roots level and kids have something positive to focus on and stay out of trouble the games gonna be just fine no matter where they come from.

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10-02-2005, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar"A home for all God's children-- that's America to me." Don't think anybody has to worry too much about illegal aliens working in Major League Baseball!

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10-02-2005, 01:37 PM

Posted By: ricka lot of these players also choose to NOT become US citizens in order to avoid draft rules and be able to sign with whoever they want. and of course there are a few taxes they like to avoid as well.

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10-02-2005, 02:05 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIf you want the best baseball in the world, you not only let you invite the best players in the world to play. Living in Seattle, I can tell you that the citizens are more than happy to have Ichiro and Felix Hernandez playing for the home team. From what I've read, they both are good people, teammates and hard workers. I doubt many Cardinals fans are clammering to trade Albert Pujols for Brett Boone.

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10-02-2005, 02:15 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthWho cares where any of the players are from unless of course you wear a white hood and robe, which would explain why you might have an issue with the composition of players in MLB. Can we take a vote on reinstating the Negro League??????

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10-02-2005, 03:38 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelescomputers , eating ,no discipline. WHen was the last time that you played catch with your son or daughter ???...teach them some fundamentals of the sport...GET THEM INTERESTED...you are obligated to be the best PARENT to them as you can be, are you????? I sponsor 2 local little league teams , and play and sponsor a class A team and a 40 and over team...the first league we often go over tapes and dvds, still having fun at 44 ! get your fat butts on the diamond. Good evening Dan

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10-02-2005, 05:04 PM

Posted By: warshawlawwe played catch this morning.

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10-02-2005, 05:08 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanSo let me get this straight...it's called the "world series" but we can't let latin american players into the hall .... hmmmm .... interesting.... Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a> * I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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10-02-2005, 05:41 PM

Posted By: Dan LundriganDid anyone catch the Program on Spike T.V last Sunday afternoon?It(used to be called T.N.N).It was about the history of Latin Ballplayers it was very good had interviews from some Great Latin players.I missed the beginning but caught most of it.If it airs again I want to tape it.Sorry if it`s O/T. for this thread.

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10-02-2005, 06:02 PM

Posted By: RP60Perez,Marichal,Clemente,Cepeda,Aparicio, and many more to come in the future...

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10-02-2005, 06:05 PM

Posted By: identify7As BOTN says: "Can we take a vote on reinstating the Negro League??????" And from Ted (BSF): "we can't let latin american players into the hall" They also do not allow lefties to play any infield position other than pitcher and first base. And who is to blame?

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10-04-2005, 05:16 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI knew a guy who was Mexican-American-- born and raised in Mexico, legally moved to the US and becase a US citizen. He was a successful businessman, was proud to be an American citizen and was a conservative Republican (listened to Rusch, voted for Bush, NRA member, etc). One thing that bothered him, however, was when US Citizens referred to themselves only as Americans. He felt that Mexicans, Panamanians, Venezuelans, etc where equally Americans as they all lived in the Americas.

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10-04-2005, 08:58 PM

Posted By: Todd Schultzbut I don't believe the premise--1/2 are not US citizens. Show me where that's the case. I'm watching the Yanks/Angels right now, and while only two teams--no way it's half--not even close.

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10-04-2005, 09:20 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognaror a checker board...<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/orphgrin3001.jpg">

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10-04-2005, 09:39 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesROOT ROOT ROOT FOR THE HOMETEAM , NOTHING MORE... NOTHING LESS. Dont think that this has to do with anything racial ,just a fact of the changing of the players. In the poor countries ,I dont think that they sit there playing video games and watching MTV !!!! Some hit with a stick and a homemade ball. That is the love of the game. Snauck

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10-04-2005, 09:45 PM

Posted By: bruce dorskind The most recent data we could find indicates that about 1 in 4 Major Leaguers come from foreign countries. Clearly the 2003 numbers listed below under represent certain countries of origin on the 2005 rosters. But even an additional 50 names would still mean that the total number of foreign citizens is less than 30% of all those players on current Major League Rosters. Would welcome any comments. Perhaps someone can find these same figures for 2005 Where they come from With baseball’s continued globalization and the prospects for a worldwide draft, the number of foreigners playing Major League Baseball is both a relevant and growing number. But figures citing the number of foreign-developed big leaguers as 35 to even 48 percent are erroneous. BA research has shown the numbers are lower. Of 1,218 players who played in the majors last year, 299–or 24.5 percent–were foreign-born. By definition, a foreign-born player is anyone who did not attend his final year of high school in the United States. The breakdown by country: Dominican Republic 114 Venezuela 54 Puerto Rico 47 Mexico 17 Japan 13 Canada 12 Cuba 11 Panama 8 Australia 6 South Korea 6 Aruba 3 Colombia 3 Curacao 2 Nicaragua 2 Taiwan 1 Best, Bruce Dorskind

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10-06-2005, 09:21 AM

Posted By: identify7Facts? Like my mother-in-law used to say "you are always bringing up facts ... just to confuse the issue". Thank you Bruce Dorskind. But I note that "foreign born" includes both citizens and non-citizens of ther US.

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10-06-2005, 09:35 AM

Posted By: Kevin CummingsTodd: Were you watching the same Yankees/Angels game I was? I can't speak to their current citizenship status, but I saw 9 of the 18 starters (Matsui, Cano, Williams, Posada, Wang, Cabrera, Guerrero, Molina and Rivera) being foreign born players. Seems like 50% is well within the range of possibility. Kevin

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10-06-2005, 10:11 AM

Posted By: Todd SchultzI was watching the first game without Yankee pitcher Wang, but still: 1. Three of the players you listed were born in Puerto Rico--Wiliams, Posada and Molina, and as such, were born US citizens. Now you're down to 6/18 or one third. 2. Check the pitching staffs. Other than Wang and Rivera,the rest are US born. I believe the Angels have three non-US born pitchers--K-Rod, Colon and Escobar. This is where the US born players are most prevalent. I haven't studied the post-season rosters per se, but it looks like the Astros and Cardinals only have one pitcher each born outside the US, as do the Braves if Jorge Sosa made the roster. Seems the Padres have 2, and 2 catchers, and no other players born outside the US. 3. I don't really care what the percentage is, I just challenged the premise, and it seems to me pretty obvious that the number of foreign born players in MLB is not close to 50%. Also, I believe citizenship is important, and I wonder how many of those foreign born players have become US citizens.

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10-06-2005, 11:12 AM

Posted By: Bill StoneI was fortunate to have David Ortiz,Ichiro Suzuki and Tadahito Iguchi on my fantasy baseball team. I recall checking their batting performances every day but never once checked on their nationality. As a manager I wanted the best player on the field and as an owner I would want a player who loved the game and would be pleased when the fans responded to superior play. I think anyone who watched Tadahito hit the homerun yesterday saw his unbridled enthusiasm for the game and I bet the Chicago White Sox fans could have cared less what his nationality was!!

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10-06-2005, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Julie Vognarthe Brooklyn Dodgers fielded 5 black men (as starters)--as opposed to 4...as someone (or 4) pointed out, such is not likely to happen again in MLB, but the objections to the foreign-born dominating one team or another is reminiscent of this fracus that happened..in the early '50s?! As someone pointed out, except for the American Indians (the Canadians call them "First Nations") among us, we are all descended from immigrants...

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10-06-2005, 11:39 AM

Posted By: identify7Until Todd mentioned it, I did not realize that people born in Puerto Rico are US citizens. I wonder how that works. They do not pay US taxes, do they? And people who are citizens of other countries can earn millions here and not pay any US taxes either, right?

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10-06-2005, 11:46 AM

Posted By: WeWereHereFirst<a href="http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/american_indian_baseball_players.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/american_indian_baseball_players.shtml</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/american_indian_baseball_players.shtml</a</a>> The reason I went into baseball as a profession was that when I left school, baseball offered me the best opportunity both for money and achievement. I adopted it because I played baseball better than I could do anything else, because the life and the game appealed to me and because there was so little of racial prejudice in the game. There has been scarcely a trace of sentiment against me on account of birth. I have been treated the same as other men." - Chief Bender On April 22, 1897 Louis Sockalexis became the first American Indian to become a Major League ballplayer with the National League Cleveland Spiders. Six years later Chief Bender became the first American Indian in the American League and the only American Indian in the National Baseball Hall of Fame to date. The list below is — hopefully — a comprehensive list of former major league baseball players who were also verifiable full-blooded American Indians. American Indian Baseball Players by Baseball Almanac Louis Sockalexis Penobscot 04-22-1897 05-13-1899 Bill Phyle Lakota 09-17-1898 09-15-1906 Chief Bender Ojibwe 04-20-1903 07-21-1925 Lou Bruce Mohawk 06-22-1904 10-10-1904 Louis LeRoy Seneca 09-22-1905 04-20-1910 Ed Summers Kickapoo 04-16-1908 06-01-1912 Chief Meyers Cahuilla 04-16-1909 10-04-1917 Chief Chouneau Ojibwe 10-09-1910 10-09-1910 Jim Thorpe Fox & Sac 04-14-1913 09-25-1919 Chief Johnson Winnebago 04-16-1913 09-30-1915 Ben Tincup Cherokee 05-22-1914 09-15-1928 Jim Bluejacket Cherokee 08-06-1914 07-16-1916 Chief Yellowhorse Pawnee 04-15-1921 10-01-1922 Ike Kahdot Potowatomie 09-05-1922 09-21-1922 Pepper Martin Osage 04-16-1928 10-01-1944 Art Daney Choctaw 05-25-1928 05-25-1928 Roy Johnson Cherokee 04-18-1929 04-27-1938 Bob Johnson Cherokee 04-12-1933 09-23-1945 Euel Moore Chickasaw 07-08-1934 07-26-1936 Allie Reynolds Muscogee 09-17-1942 09-25-1954 Jack Aker Potowatomie 05-03-1964 09-27-1974 Gene Locklear Lumbee 04-05-1973 10-02-1977 Dwight Lowry Lumbee 04-03-1984 04-23-1988 Bobby Madritsch Lakota 07-22-2004 Active American Indian Baseball Players

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10-06-2005, 12:19 PM

Posted By: identify7And they don't pay a lick of taxes either. But I am ok with that. Actually they probably should be paid taxes.

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10-06-2005, 12:30 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackForeigners living and working in the United States pay Federal Taxes. Depending on the home laws, many expatriates also pay taxes to their home country. Puerto Ricans are citizens of the United States as the US owns the territory and says they are US citizens. Puerto Ricans can't vote in US Presidential elections and don't pay US Federal taxes. The US invaded Puerto Rico many years ago and forced Spain to cede the territory. As it being a territorial squabble between superpowers, the Puerto Ricans had little say in the matter, though I beleive today Puerto Rican citizens generally wish their territory to become a US State.

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10-06-2005, 12:49 PM

Posted By: identify7Sheesh - more facts. My mother-in-law was right. It does confuse the issue. Because now there is even more to think about. And you lose sight of the original premise, while you mentally go off on tangential paths such as: if we own the country, lets sell it and divvy up the proceeds! They will still be there, everything will be the same. We just will all have extra card money!

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10-06-2005, 12:58 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackGil, my opinion is the Puerto Rico will become a US State, and its citizens will soonafter be paying US Federal Taxes and voting for President.

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10-06-2005, 01:11 PM

Posted By: identify7I hope so David, I like them.

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10-06-2005, 02:19 PM

Posted By: AboutPRWould prefer independence, and their own president. GWB is not their cup of cafe. BTW, Esteban Bellan, a Cuban under Spanish rule, was one of the first Latin players to play professional baseball in the National Association as it was known then. He played for the Troy Haymakers in 1871, the first year of that league. T217 MONO Chadbourn, Port. -- <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-06-2005, 09:47 PM

Posted By: NickThere have been 2 referenda in recent years for Puerto Rican voters to indicate whether they seek to have the Commonwealth apply for statehood. Both times, the voters narrowly said "No".