American Memorabilia T205 auction question [Archive]

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10-03-2005, 09:27 PM

Posted By: Damian AndersonI just noticed today the format that the Amer. Mem. auction had on the T205 set. They auctioned the set as a whole and listed each card individually as well. If the bids for the whole set outbid the bids for the cards individually then the bidders for the single cards were SOL. Does anyone know for sure what the outcome was? I am to lazy to add it all up without asking here first. If the set brought more than the singles than I really think the value for the cards as singles is skewed. As some of you are aware I have come about some nice T205 singles recently and would like to know. Thanks. Damian

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10-03-2005, 09:59 PM

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)I don't know the final score.

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10-04-2005, 01:21 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanThat doesn't seem ethical to me...i would also be surprised if it were legal...but i wouldn't know about that to be honest. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a> * I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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10-04-2005, 02:57 AM

Posted By: bruce dorskin Reviewing 35 year of Basebal Auction catalogs from 60 different auction houses, one, though careful research, can indentify at least 12 situations where the Auctionner offerd buyers the entire lot as the option to acquire individual cards. The rare coin hobby generates in excess of ten times the published revenue of the baseball board hobby. Many prominenet coin dealers including some which are now GMI companies (owner of Teletrade) have authored the multiple lot auction-generally that lot is a proof set or complete issue. Auction laws are generally regulated by the state. I would be quite reserved in my efforts before stating t"hat offering a group of individual lots offered as a super lot is iillegal." The courts will question your auhority or legal standing to raise such a point...and if you brought such a case to the vast majority of the state courts where baseball cards are auctioned, you woud be rewarded with a directed verdict against yourself,. In certain states states you would also have to assume the defendant's legal costs. Rember the primary responsibility of tjhe Auction House is ensure that the highest possible level of bidding is generated and to maximize overall price for the seller and profitability for the Auction House.

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10-04-2005, 10:01 AM

Posted By: warshawlawLet the market decide which way a set should be sold off. If there are enough individuals who collectively want to go high for enough cards, they get what they want and the seller makes more money. If not, a bulk lot buyer gets the lot. Wouldn't it be nice to have a shot at that one card you need from a lot without having to take and turn out all the dreck that comes with it?

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10-04-2005, 10:42 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanIs it just me or does someone ALWAYS TRY AND START AN ARGUMENT. Bruce - I've been part of the collecting world since i was a young child... a close family member has a lighter collection that dwarfs any baseball card collection that i know of....ANY.. period.. including Larry or any of the big guys mentioned....i'm usually one not to pick a fight.... but i know exactly what the responsibilities of an Auction House are... I RUN ONE ... where the hell you get "I would be quite reserved ...." is beyond me...i'm not suing anyone and this is not an issue i am "bringing to the courts" You said: "The rare coin hobby generates in excess of ten times the published revenue of the baseball board hobby. Many prominenet coin dealers including some which are now GMI companies (owner of Teletrade) have authored the multiple lot auction-generally that lot is a proof set or complete issue." a) who cares how much money other industries generate (it doesn't have anything to do with this thread) b) As for your last statement here ... huh??? Are you saying b/c people auction off large lots... you can prove that a complete issue results? You also said: "Auction laws are generally regulated by the state. I would be quite reserved in my efforts before stating that offering a group of individual lots offered as a super lot is iillegal." The courts will question your auhority or legal standing to raise such a point...and if you brought such a case to the vast majority of the state courts where baseball cards are auctioned,you woud be rewarded with a directed verdict against yourself,. In certain states states you would also have to assume the defendant's legal costs." -This is a tangent i don't even care to go into...the reason I am not more knowlegeable about this issue is b/c being an internet based auction house...the same laws don't apply to me.... i did state however that i was not sure. Regardless of the law..i feel that to be somewhat unethical. Finally you spouted off: "Rember the primary responsibility of tjhe Auction House is ensure that the highest possible level of bidding is generated and to maximize overall price for the seller and profitability for the Auction House." - Well i'm sorry but that is crap. Ethical behavior, regardless of the law should not be sacrificed in the name of ethics. SEE: CLEMENTE AUCTION! Get over your damn self..i'm getting just about fed up with this board's overt opinions on everything...THIS IS ABOUT FREAKING CARDS/THE CARD INDUSTRY/AND WHAT IS SO GREAT ABOUT THESE THINGS. I never get into these arguments...and i'm not going to say another thing in this thread...but go somewhere else to spout your legal drivel. I might also add that maybe my limited vocabularly led me to use the word 'ethical'. A better explanation would be ... while i like the idea of being able to access individual cards instead of a full lot .... i find something just not right about that. Don't get me wrong, i remember a c46 full set that i was pissed about b/c i wanted the gandil (YES DOUG .. I KNOW HAHA)... regardless of how it is handled in other industries...i would never do that with any of my auctions. IN SUMMATION - LETS GET BACK TO CARDS AND FUN!!!! Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a> * I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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10-04-2005, 07:23 PM

Posted By: bruce dorskind As I recall, the 1919 Black Sox, like you, had difficulty with both the law and with the truth, not to mention reading English. Whilst web auctions are not subject tothe same state regulations aslive auctions the laws are evolving. Perhaps, you should retain a distinguished Internet lawyer. Furthermore, I would argue, in court or elsewhere, that the numismatic experience and the baseball experience are quite relevant. Both hobbies draw thousands of the same people. The major grading service has its root in the coin business, and at least 5 of the top 25 baseball card dealers worked in the coin business. Mastronet for example has a growing coin business. Alan Rosen, like him or not has a world class coin collection. The list goes on and on and on/ With regard to my comment about legality...there is nothing illegal about offering bidders two choices- bid on the whole lot or take your chances on an invididual lot. The only obligation of the auctioneer is to conduct and fair and legal auction and help his clients realize the maximum value for their collection. If you are interested in becoming the High Priest of Charity, that is your business....but I believe the only reason one sells his or her cards is to realize every last cent from the buyer (again ensuring that you don't violate the law). This is a competition. Life is only about winners and losers. Clearly, those who have assembled world class collections do (and pay) whatever it takes to win. A prospective seller wants two world class prospective buyers to compete. He or she has no interest in 'spreading the wealth." in the interest of fairness If you wish to pay me (at my standard billing rate) ($500 an hour) to review the auction catalogs, I will be happy to produce the results mentioned in my original posting. I posted this message because another collector questioned what American Memorabillia had done. In my view (show me law in any state which takes another position) they were fair and left it to the marketplace to decide. Remember, this is America and Capitalism rules.

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10-04-2005, 07:49 PM

Posted By: Frank WakefieldLots of real estate auctions offer several parcels of a farm, then the entire farm, and whichever result brings more is the way it is sold. I cannot imagine a "legal" problem with this. It would be a pain for someone wanting one card. But it would get a better price for the seller, which is why he sells; and a better commission for the auctioneer, which is why he does his thing.

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10-04-2005, 08:04 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanLeon - LOCK THIS PLEASE - THANKS!!!!!! Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a> * I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do. edited here by leon because I don't want to bump this to the top. I see nothing to lock this thread about....regards

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10-04-2005, 08:08 PM

Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)Without having researched the issue (under Nevada law, is my best guess)... I would venture to day it is legal provided it is properly disclosed -- i.e. not deceptive.... Ethical -- well, that's up to you to some extent although I would think that it is ethical as long as its disclosed clearly.... The key is not to deceive consumers while performing the "prime directive" of an consignee (which Bruce identified in no uncertain terms -- maximizing profit for its consignors). Still, as someone who bid on individual lots (and has in similar auctions in the past) I can certainly see why "Blacksox" is rather frustrated/peeved by this sort of auction -- it almost feels like there is another reserve or bidding an option for a card rather than a card... By the way AmericanMemorabilia.com really impressed me so far with how quickly they: let me know if I won (as an individual lot bidder this meant telling me that the set did not sell as a set), Accepted payment (credit card which is nice for achange, and shipped out my winnings.

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10-04-2005, 08:38 PM

Posted By: scgaynor"If you wish to pay me (at my standard billing rate) ($500 an hour) to review the auction catalogs" As clueless as you are about the this hobby in general and the auction business in particular, why would somebody pay you $500 to do anything? Also, please learn to use punctuation correctly. Quotes do not start in the middle of a word and "/" does not come at the end of a sentence. Now get off your high horse, believe me, nobody takes you seriously. Scott

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10-04-2005, 11:18 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanThis is just too funny! <img src="http://htomc.dns2go.com/anim/anim/cartdept.gif"> RESPECT MY AUTHORI-TAI!! Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a> * I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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10-04-2005, 11:25 PM

Posted By: Damian AndersonI am really sorry that I started such a heated argument here, I had no idea. Gavel prices are the best measure of slabbed cards true market value. All I was pointing out is that if someone is doing research on card value for the T205 singles in the above mentioned auction that stats may not be accurate due to auction format. I really don't question the ehtics of the auction house. I would want to get the most possible if it were my item(or items depending on results)selling. I really don't see anything wrong ethically other than it won't represent a true market value of a set of this caliber or the individual cards depending on which brought more. I have very limited private contact with members here and it shocks me to see personal negative interactions that I think should best be private e-mails or phone calls. Maybe I just wasn't clear in my intentions of the post. Leon, any advice here to keep us in check? Damian

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10-05-2005, 12:41 AM

Posted By: leonI wish there was a way to stop people from posting idiotic stuff but this is America. Home of the free... I posted a response to some of this stuff and then deleted it before I hit the "respond" button. Sometimes I just don't know what to say.... ps...this is the 1st time I have ever seen that stupid little wish list box....

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10-05-2005, 06:00 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt would be nice for this board to discuss a topic without everybody getting into a shouting match. It is legal and not uncommon for an auction house to offer a group of items singly and then allow one bidder to top the cumulative bids and win the whole group. They stated it clearly in the catalog and everyone knew that going in. It may frustrate the bidder who wishes to buy one card but as an auctioneer myself my main responsibility is to get my consignor the highest possible price. That is what American Memorabilia is doing so what's the beef? If you were the consignor you would be thanking them.

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10-05-2005, 06:27 AM

Posted By: LarryScott- You are one of the premier auctions on e bay and are very knowledgable. Your auctions and service are great...Maybe punctuation is very relevant to you, spelling should also be important...sentence is not spelled "sentance" as in your thread! Fot the last several months, I have posted three times....Only when it is important issues..I cannot believe the bickering about such nonsense.... American Mmeorabilia did full disclosure, without intentionally using deception... and although I think that it is a big dissapointment for someone in the end since ineitably someone will be locked out of purchasing this group.. they ran the auction professional. How many of these board members forget the serious events that recently transpired in New Orleans , we should put this baseball card hobby in perspective and be respectful to each other.

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10-05-2005, 06:32 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWell said, Larry. As Leon and I have shared in the past, it's just cardboard. No question the pursuit of vintage cards is competitive, as the supply can not keep up with the demand. But the attacks on this board go way past that, and there are greater issues in the world than acquiring baseball cards. I'm certain we would all like to see a higher standard of decorum here and I wish everyone could make a little better effort in that regard.

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10-05-2005, 06:58 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)My .02 - As a bidder I don't like the format. As a seller you'd have to like the idea of working both sides to get the most cash possible. As a bidder you have the option to not bid if the auciton format bothers you. If it were up to me I'd just look elsewhere for my cards. I wouldn't hold a grudge against the seller (auction house) but I'd hope this auction format doesn't become popular because I'd hate to be the high bidder on an individual lot only to find out that I didn't win it.

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10-05-2005, 07:00 AM

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)I have no idea how that Add to my wish list symbol was posted by my login in my previous post.... must be fat fingers...

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10-05-2005, 07:22 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI got the wish list icon too, but it disappeared. Maybe Leon can explain it. I think the format American Memorabilia used to sell the T205 set will occur very rarely, as there are few situations where this will apply. And I still don't blame them for helping out their consignor. In fact, just to start a lively discussion: I've always felt a bidder has complete control of his destiny- he can bid as high as he wants, leave ceiling bids, ask for call-backs, bid early or late; in short, he can pick his own strategy. A consignor has no options; once he consigns he is done and hopes for the best. I too feel a loyalty to my consignors; I appreciate that they choose me and I recognize the responsibility I have taken on. Bidders can take care of themselves. When you run auctions, you begin to realize this. Nothing against bidders, they are my lifeblood. But they can make their own decisions. My guess is there are some dissenting opinions.

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10-05-2005, 08:32 AM

Posted By: scgaynorMy message to Bruce seemed to come from out of nowhere in this thread, but it was actually was my reaction to about a month of his posts on this board. He should be lurking and learning, not posting condescending and insulting responses to people who actually have something to offer to the community. I could care less about his use of punctuation. As far as I am concerned, as long as I can understand what he is writing, then communication has been achieved. I was just being a smart-ass because of the grammar comments referenced in previous threads. Getting back on topic, I am sure that there is nothing wrong with selling the T205 lot the way that AM did, but it does seem like you are going to upset a number of customers who bid strong on a particular card, but lost because they didn't want every card in the set. In the long run it seems like a bad idea to even go down that road. Scott

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10-05-2005, 08:34 AM

Posted By: AnthonyMastro did the same thing in two recent auctions, offering '59 Fleer and '54 Red Hearts as either a set or broken up, with the highest total taking it. The set price won the '59 Fleer, didn't follow the Red Hearts.

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10-05-2005, 08:41 AM

Posted By: barrysloateMaybe in the end as Scott said, just offer it as a set. A set buyer is likely to top the individual bids, and I guess this is one of the few situations where no matter how high someone bids, he still has no control over his destiny. You can't overbid on one card you want and have enough of a pull on the other 210.

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10-05-2005, 10:50 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanNow that this has taken a friendly turn i will comment some more. By the way....it seems that this thread has been hijacked, neither Damian nor I wanted this to turn into a legal discussion. He was trying to see what people thought about using that as a bench mark for va But...in hopes that someone has researched this issue on a broad scope and can educate me as to what exactly the deal is. Personally, i believe that eBay has developed without laws being kept up to date. I'm NOT A LAWYER. For example, with all of these "trading assistance" poping up... laws regarding pawn shops and auctioneers don't actually apply, but in many states...they are applying those laws because the government doesn't know what else to do. I'M NOT A LAWYER Some states are more progressive than other with regards to this, however, [I AM NOT A LAWYER] i am not aware of what is going on in each states. I know cppmany has been legally formed and legally operated and that is all i have time to deal with right now. It is ILLEGAL for me to auction off an item in multiple listings, regardless of my disclosure or anything else. It also is a violation of ebay rules. If anyone on here who knows more about this, or has access to information that would be beneficial..i would love to hear about it. I can't quote statues and other sources as my proof. I have read through these documents and that's how i know. Educate me please!!!! oh yeah... I'm NOT A LAWYER. Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - <a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a> * I'm smart enough to know that there are a lot of people who know more than I do.

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10-05-2005, 11:31 AM

Posted By: DITTOBravo! Bravo! - for each one of your post. T217 MONO Curtis Bernard L.A. -- <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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10-05-2005, 11:57 AM

Posted By: warshawlawwho's Curtis Bernard? I like the idea of an auction going either way. If you really think about it, all the auctioneer is doing is treating the individual bids as a collective set bid, matching it against the actual set bid, and selling the set for the highest overall price. What's the difference, ultimately, between the auctioneer doing that and a bunch of us agreeing to go in together on a lot and break up the cards between us, other than the fact that the people in the AM auction don't know each other and haven't overtly coordinated their bid? I still think it is better for many collectors as well as for the consignors if the option under discussion is used. Collectors who are shut out of big lots get to participate and maybe pick up a card they really want and consignors get the maximum dollar for their cards. The only ones who are hurt are the minority of collectors who can afford to swallow major sets whole and the dealers who buy them and break them up. I would be more likely to send my major sets or near sets to AM if I knew this format was to be used. I'd probably insist on it.

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10-05-2005, 06:00 PM

Posted By: T217 MONOGreat question from a west coast collector. T217 MONO L. Burrell Vernon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>