P-F in your collection?

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>There have been a few threads recently about buying trimmed or altered cards. Just how bad of a card would you have in your collection? Would you take the P-F card in your collection because it's what you collect or because it's a filler or because it's rare? What reason?<br /><br />Regardless of issue, where would you draw the line?<br /><br />For example, I like N172 cards. There is a very low condition Jake Beckley for sale on ebay. I would have paaid up to about $150 for this card. As you can see by the san below, it's pretty beat. How much would another N172 collector value this card at?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126383690.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BN172KBP002.jpg"> <br /><br />My beautiful SGC 10 N172 Boston Kelly portrait--back is written all over (nothing interesting), and YES, I'd wanted one for a long time.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Because i collect Pittsburgh players from the OJ set i wouldve paid at least $200 for that Beckley.For cards i really want id pay alot for OJs because specific cards dont always come up often but just a random player(common) i wouldnt pay more than $50 in that condition.<br /><br />I think the condition youll accept depends on how tough the set is.When i collected t206s i wouldnt even have thought about one in that shape,not even as a filler

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Posted By: <b>Daniel Bretta</b><p>What kind of value would you place on this skinned Brouthers card? And any idea what it would cost me to get it rebacked by someone who knows what they are doing?<br /><br /><a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/622/brouthersn1725ku.jpg" border="0" width="428" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

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Posted By: <b>zach</b><p>the rarer the card to me the more I will pay and the more I won't care about the condtion.<br /><img src="http://mzm55collection.com/website6.jpg"><br /><br />my t227 Rube is a good example...I really like the card so when one came up that was cheap I bought it insted of waiting around for a much more expensive one. 10 dollars vs. paying 350 or so for one.

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>Spot is actually under the top layer of the card, and is brown, and shaped like--an ink splash. Guess it happened between the two photographic processes...anyhway, I'd been wanting one of THEM for a long time, too.<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BN172bec002.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>I aquired this from a fellow board member and I think its a great looking card and very appealing to me. Doesnt matter a bit to me that it might be trimmed? LOL. I treasure it as much as any card in my collection. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126386496.JPG"> <br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p> I know we,ve touched on this in a few posts. I really feel that if the cards come back ungraded and trimmed but they are nice looking cards and they are going to stay in my collection, I dont care if they were trimmed. I'm not going to try and decieve any one with them and alot of trimmed cards are not noticeable with the naked eye. SO, if I buy some trimmed cards that I'm happy with I feel I am accomplishing 2 things. Adding some beauties to my collection and maybe saving some other buyer from buying a trimmed card that is not disclosed later on. ANyone have any thoughts on this?<br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The only condition requirements for my collection are no heavy crease thru the face and a legible name. Chunks of the card can be missing, especially when it comes to rare, expensive cards. Besides, beat up cards have character that a high grade example lacks.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.attic2cash.net/cards/e107Sheckard.jpg"><br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p> Nice sheckard Jay. What issue is it? Sorry for the ignorance, but its the only way I can learn. Thanks Joe<br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/110103_diving_prv.gif">

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I would never buy a trimmed or altered card.<br /><br />The only circumstances I would buy less than a PSA 7 or a SGC 84 is if there was a genuine scarcity of the card.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Is there a grading service that grades based on "character" not condition? Of course it couldn't slab the card because that would be uncool, but maybe it could make a notation on the back of a cardsaver or something.

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>JIM, If you are not willing to buy anything less than a 7... that means there are many pre-war sets that you will never own a card of.<br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rhett,<br /><br />Maybe so--but I have learned you can't collect them all. For the obscure sets I would probably be satisfied<br />with 1 psa 8 sample.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Dav, you appear to be suffering from a medical condition known as Mike Baker's Disease -- defined as an undue fascination with high grade slabbed cards. It is a psychiatric disorder, listed in DSM-IV under the obsessive compulsive disorders (although there are those who claim it belongs under narcissistic disorders). There is a cure, however. Sell all your cards and replace them with low grade cards -- creases are mandatory (sorry, I know it sounds painful). For a while you will feel ill, but eventually you will learn to love them. You not only will be cured, you will have much more money to spread around. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p> Some of us dont have the option of buying just PSA 8 cards for our collection. Even if the issue isnt rare. Thats a statement that will definately change my opinion of your views towards my collection. I think we had another person on this board at one time that turned his nose up at any thing less than auction quality material. Glad you dont have any interest in the cards that I collect, It will be one less person bidding against me. But I sure would like to get you in a poker game and see if your superiority holds up against mine there. <br /><br /><br />Statements made from a lowly PSA 4 collector.<br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>Paul Lehr</b><p><br />I don't have any P-F cards in my collection but I would buy them if they had great eye appeal like Julie's Boston Kelly. I personally would never buy a card that looked like that Jake Beckley....it's way too beat up for me.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>The original question asked what is the lowest condition card people would buy. Jim just answered the question, he didn't intimate that he was "superior" or criticize anyone else's collection or look down on people who only have the resources to buy lesser grade cards. Methinks his response was taken the wrong way.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Hey Joe,<br /><br />Don't know if Jim is any good at Poker or if he even plays at all but I heard he was pretty darn good at Go Fish and Crazy 8's. How about you?<br /><br />I hope you did not mind, Jim, my sharing this with the world.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon inadvertantly took this down as I had mistakenly posted it twice but what I think I said is that there is nothing wrong with collecting lower grade cards although I like high grade cards.<br /><br />I do play poker but as Greg says Go Fish is my game.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The card is a Breisch-Williams e107<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Craig Lipman</b><p>One of the worst condition raw cards I ever bought. Now it's one of my favorite cards.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126403003.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>William Brumbach</b><p>I had a Goudey 4-in-1 and a T202 with a side panel split off I sold recently that were pretty nasty and still have a '54 Topps Spahn that is pretty tore up but this is the probably the lowest graded card in my actual collection that I could post here.<br /><br /><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~valerierx/1949-50_Toleteros_Carlos_Bernier_01.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p> I think that this post will be my exit from the forum also.<br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />You cannot leave until you post a Vaya con dios thread.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Greg, you've made me laugh now twice about that departure....

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Posted By: <b>bcornell</b><p>Here's one that, thankfully, is beyond the realm of grading, since E125's are too big and too oddly shaped for holders (note: this is <i>not</i> a challenge to GAI. Please don't.). Wiltse was still not verified when Lipset's encyclopedia came out 20 years ago, so I assume it's one of just a few.<br /><br />Zach - your t227 Marquard has an impeccable provenance, as I used to own it. It came in a hodgepodge lot from Mastro a few years ago, then on to Mike Peich. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.t207.com/images/other/wiltse.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>zach</b><p>thats very cool...nice to know that it was once in the Bill C. collection lol.

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Posted By: <b>Mike P.</b><p>I really hate to hijack this thread with a seemingly dumb and off topic question but I have been wondering this for quite some time. Bill, is that Mr. McFeely (of Mr. Rogers fame) on your avatar image? <br /><br />I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

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Posted By: <b>bcornell</b><p>Nope, it's Bill Klem, HOF umpire. You're ejected, Mike!<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>Mike P.</b><p>I hold my head in shame! I should have known that after reading the vintage card umpire thread! In my defense, with that small avatar there is a resemblance. Thanks for the answer, now I can sleep better tonight! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/recon83/mr_mcfeely.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/images/klem_bill_2.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>You'll never own an E98 set, an E94 set, a D311 set or a T212-1, 2 or 3 set. In fact you won't ever be able to own most of the cards in any of the sets because they just don't exist in the slab grade you want. If you could pry Scott Mosley's cards from his hands (no chance) you would have a good go at the E98 and if you robbed Mark Macrae at gunpoint you might have a decent start on the Obaks and D311, but E94s? Fuggetaboudit.

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Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>Catfish!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>tbob,<br /><br />I'm sure you are right. As of now, I collect about 11 pre-war sets and samples of others that I can get in psa 8 or sgc 88(or gai 8). So I will never collect these as you say.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126441907.JPG"> <br /><br />I picked up these two lovelies in a lot of 105 T206 cards that I won on eBay a few years back. The seller had a -1 feedback score, and had never sold any baseball cards in his history. Mostly he had been dealing in adult movies. But, the seller was in New York City (where I lived at the time) and so I bid highest and then arranged for an in person meeting to exchange cash for cards. Well, the seller arrived at Grand Central Station about an hour late. He was covered in filth, I recall his nails being the color of soot. He was emaciated. He had the look of a heroin addict selling his grandfather's collection to make up some money for smack. <br /><br />Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your appetite for abused cards) he had the baseball cards in his left hip pocket, no sleeves, no plastic covering, nothing. Just 105 T206 cards in his pocket. Many of them were as beat up as the Burchell and the Dunn posted here, some of them were in fair-good condition. About 15 Hall of Famers and a dozen, or so, rare backs, including American Beauty and Cycle. He (or one of his associates) had spent a lot of time soaking some of them in a substance of some sort and trying to color in the creases with magic marker. To this day, the cards warp any penny sleeve that gets the privilege of housing them for more than a few days. I have no idea what the cards were soaked in, but they still -- after many many years -- feel damp to the touch. I have to wash my hands after touching them.<br /><br />I have sold off most of these cards as I have upgraded along the way. Even with the condition problems I was able to make back my money easily. I still have a couple left over. These two pretties were the worst of the lot and I just recently upgraded the Burchell. So this one will be coming to an eBay auction near you as soon as I get the replacement in the mail this week.<br /><br />If it's authentic, I'll accept it as a filler.

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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Here...<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/Wite3/n300.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Ed McCollum</b><p>Trimmed to alter condition...wouldn't buy it.<br /><br />Beat to hell through the course of time...I got no problem with that.<br /><br />Ed

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Quite a beater as you can see...Personally, I find it sorta charming. I've always enjoyed collecting raw/low grade cards like this one. Nice thread guys.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126482180.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><img src="http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7971/goslinholland5ak.jpg"><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"I would never buy a trimmed or altered card.<br /><br />The only circumstances I would buy less than a PSA 7 or a SGC 84 is if there was a genuine scarcity of the card.<br /><br />Jim"<br /><br />This statement reminds me of one Adam J. Moraine :&gt;)<br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>"This statement reminds me of one Adam J. Moraine :&gt;)"<br /><br />I'm definately in the "old beatup is OK" camp. <br />I find it silly that people pay ridiculous amounts of money for high end graded cards. <br />However, everyone has the right to spend thier money how they see fit. <br />I don't see that Jim has made any statements that warrant such a cheap shot.<br /><br />It's comments like this that make the board look bad.<br /><br />Bob

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>One of the many differences between Adam M and Jim C is that Jim HAS the means to buy what he wants.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>FYS,<br /><br />That was pretty stupid but I will give you a pass.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>joe maples</b><p>I know this is a 1953 Glendale but Houtteman is scarce, traded for this years ago, graded a 10 by SGC, has staple hole in card, besides the normal wear of the Hotdog cards.<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126489820.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"FYS,<br /><br />That was pretty stupid but I will give you a pass.<br /><br />Jim"<br /><br />Wow, I think people took this one a bit too seriously or I am more naive that I think. In any case, I remember Adam talking one time about how he refused to buy low grade cards. It made me laugh at the time because it was pretty apparent that he did not have the means or even knowledge of vintage cards. Jim statement reminded me of Adam's statement and I thought it was funny, mostly because the people and financial situation could not be any more different, but they did make one similar statement. Thought I would add some humour to the board. Bad attempt, particularly when I am new and do not know Jim personally. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>...I can smell a vaya con dios coming.....

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Posted By: <b>misunderestimated</b><p>But sometimes the option isn't there. ... Nothing wrong with what Jim wrote (unless you are looking to be offended). "To each his own." Frankly, we should be happy he probably won't be bidding against us for a stained '14 CJ Matty, a trashed Pete Browning OJ that looks its age, or a Cuban Oscar Charleston Aguilatas with bug holes ....<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126502094.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126502115.JPG"> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Two future HOFers ??

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Didn't Biz Mackey go on to have a rap career and a hit call "Just a Friend"?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>I collect the P-F cards when I can't find/afford a nicer one, which is usually the case for tough types.<br /><br />This one's a shame, but I do like the back:<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126541282.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126541496.JPG"> <br /><br />Don't see too many Cresent Ice Creams in any condition:<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126540956.JPG"><br /><br />Anyone seen the missing corner to this? <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126541329.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>So can we assume that without some kind of a qualifier, a graded card from the major grading companies is not trimmed or otherwise altered? Thanks!

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>If possible, I go for the higher grade but I've finally gotten over the "how well would it grade" trend and just try to put my sets together with what is available. I actually like it to look the age sometimes, gives the card more character.<br><br>Freedom is Not Free

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/More%20Favorites/Darby.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Bill Kasel</b><p>My worst condition card, but to me it still has character.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126556624.JPG"> <br /><br />I have several other F-P cards but this is the worst/best.<br /><br />Bill<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p><img src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/Gallery19/Museum/T206-Kleinow-Boston.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Anybody think that most of the cards in this thread would rate among the best in your collection?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Depends on how define best. The e107 Sheckard of mine is easily one of the 3 most valuable cards in my collection. My Thorpe card is easily the most valuable and it's in a SGC20 holder.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.attic2cash.net/cards/thorpe.jpg"><br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>The Yum Yum card below is in poor condition. It is uncataloged and someone wanted it bad enough to pay a pretty healthy sum for it.<p> <br /><br />In this case scarcity was the reason for keeping the card in my collection until a very generous offer was made for the card:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126632564.JPG"> <br /><br />I'm certain that the collection where it went could have a higher graded example of the card if it were available.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Thanks for the input on my previous question about grading these F-P cards.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>Thanks for posting that Cullivans... is that in your type collection?<br /><br />I always wondered what it would look like if you crossed a T-205 with a T-208 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>So then Judge, was the original reason for putting the Yum Yum in your collection, its resale potential?<br /><br />If so, although it was occupying the Jail square, it was Just Visiting. I have some cards like that too, but none are worth talking about. I wish there was an easy way to get rid of my visitors in exchange for long term inmates.

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Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>Yes Scott, that's my lone T205/8 type. Maybe someday I can upgrade to a real T208.<br /><br />A couple more poor cards that I'm happy to have:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126644902.JPG"> <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126644923.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Gil,<br /><br />The whole idea for getting the Yum Yum in the first place was because it is a rare type card.<br /><br />As you can see the card was in fairly bad shape. Sure it was not cataloged but that wasn't the rarity factor that I considered when I got the card. I picked up the card because it was a Yum Yum.<br /> <br />To me the money that the person paid me for it will allow me to pick up another Yum Yum (or a GnB or another tough type card) that is in much better condition. I don't look at cards like investments, I look at them as peices of cardboard that bring me a lot of enjoyment. A great diversion from the real world. <br /><br /><ul><br /><li>I pick up a Paul Hines N172 and I see a picture of the first triple crown winner. <br /><li>Pick up a Radbourn card and see the pitcher that won the most games in a single season. <br /><li>I pick up Billy Hamilton and I see the player that scored more runs in one season than any other ball player. <br /><li>Pick up an Ed O'Neill card and you see a guy that led the league in just about every offensive categorey in one year. <br /></ul><br /><br />To me, that's what it's all about. The rarity part is cool because you then have a piece of baseball cardboard history. Whether it's in poor conidition or not, it's great. If I can get a better condition one, I'll do that when possible (or if the opportunity presents itself).

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I hope I didn't sound too excited about little pieces of cardboard....

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Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p>While it's true some of my poor cards are among my favorites, it usually goes hand-in-hand with rarity. If I could find a better example, I'd want it. But in most cases, I'm thrilled to find and obatain a copy.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126657470.JPG"> <br /><br />Regards,<br />Joe G.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Not at all Fred. Actually it is quite enjoyable for me to view a microcosm of one of your collecting thrusts. <br /><br />I note that many are seduced by rarity, while to me it is an enemy.<br /><br />I collect cards of players for much the same reasons which you do. However, when given a choice of a rarer card and a common one, I always choose the lower priced option. There is a continual trade off among condition, price and rarity (everything has some rarity).<br /><br />To deliberately choose a higher priced option is a viewpoint which I am struggling to understand. To me, selecting a more common card yields either a higher condition example, or less expenditure, or both. And less expenditure can easily allow me to get two cards for the price of a scarcer option.<br /><br />I do not buy cards to resell them, however, sometimes a card I have been looking for appears in a lot.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Darren Duet</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126664407.JPG"> <br /><br />trimmed & cheap

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BYYWelcht002.jpg"> <br /><br />...and I wanted it because it was a Yum Yum...

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gil, I got thru the same delima. My e107 Sheckard is one of them. For the price of the Sheckard, I could get a t206 Sheckard and whole of other t206s or other cheap, common cards that would get me further along to my player set goal. The big reason I keep the card is because I am a Leon wannabe at heart. I love type cards, so the player set allows me to also pursue type cards. Ultimately, I'd like to trade the Sheckard for one of the players in the e107 set that makes his only appearance in that set.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Jay - I think you nailed it.<br /><br />I never viewed the purchase of rare cards as the acquisition of the more difficult portion of a type set. It seems obvious now. I don't wonder what I had been thinking, because I remember it - and none of it made much sense.<br /><br />There are probably other objectives in accumulating rare cards too - that is, other than the logistics of their scarcity.