grade ?????????

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Do you think this grade is accurate ? I never dealt with this co. before and this really looks better than a 5. The back is centered the same as the front and other than the small mark on the left border (across from the W )This card looks fantastic to me. What am i missing ?<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126120381.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>daviddbreadman</b><p>I suspect its the scan but your edges are terribly off. Otherwise, there are some marks on the left middle and a looks like a blurry photo which is so often overlooked by people who claim their cards are undergraded but will surely give them no more than 5.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>You're missing a little luck... you probably got a grasder having a bad day... or you just happened to get a grader that has higher standards than another grader...<br /><br />Pop it out and resubmit it... who knows, it may come back a 6 or 7 or sent back without being graded because of evidence of trimming...

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>That is whats throwing the scan off. The pic. is clear and the edge's are much nicer than the scan shows. As i said all i see wrong is the mark/dirt on the left.

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Is there grading standerds tougher on the t's ? As i said i never bought any of there stuff before but thought i would give it try. Yes i will probably send it to GAI as i have a wall display in my office and i am trying to keep them all the same.<br /><br />Should i crack and submit ? I will be hoping for a 6 or better. Or is there any issue's with BVG and trimming when submited to the other company's ?

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>BVG has this weird subgrade system where if one of the subgrades is low, the final grade of the card can't be significantly higher than the lowest subgrade. <br /><br />You could very well submit that card to one of the better grading services and get a nice bump, as that card looks sharper than a 5. Of course you do run the risk it will be rejected as trimmed, but it is a very nice card anyway. First, however, I would try to inspect the card very closely for minor wrinkles (which can be tough to see with the condom), as they will bring a card down to a 5 regardless of how nice it looks at arms' length.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Would not these sub grades result in a 6 ? Or am i missing something ?<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126122651.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Chris Mc</b><p>I'd crack it out(carefully) and send to sgc.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>leave it alone !....card looks trimmed on bottom and the right top corner.<br /><br />though it is opinion only and one of my favorite commons, nuh uh, fine the way it is.<br /><br />Too too crisp looking.<br /><br /><br />good luck !

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Wow, Mailman just came back and left this one as well. I don't know why but i guess that week the whole BVG thing must have piqued my interest.<br /><br />Now this looks like a 3.5 Soft corners and light surface crease by the border and half way up his forarm.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126123435.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Is there any leeway ? I know many are of varing size's.<br /><br />I really would only crack it to keep everthing the same. Unfortunatly my frame system is built to hold the slabs.<br />Does BVG have a decent rep with the t issue's ?

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I think the stain will keep it from grading any higher, I would have to aggree with Dan that there is a good chance the card is trimmed top to bottom.<br /><br />If subgrades are applied, I don't think it can grade any higher than the lowest grade in the subgrade, but a 5 for centering that's tough. The surface is where it gets down graded.<br /><br />Lee<br /><br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>So that explains the mystery of how those subs = a 5.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I can't understand why those are 5 corners. They look sharp to me, unless there's something we can't see in the scan.<br /><br />Is that layering in the right-hand corners? Sometimes you can't see once it's in the slab.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Al,<br />The corners are sharp except for a tiny touch on the bottom right.<br /><br />I will crack it out later and repost the scan. Has anyone done a BVG ? I know psa and gai/sgc are relativly easy. This looks rather sturdy though.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>The way Beckett does their subgrades is pretty much the following:<br /><br />1) 3 high subs and 1 low sub = 1pt higher than lowest sub (ex - 3, 7, 7, 8 = 4)<br /><br />2) 1 low sub, 1 medium sub and 2 high subs = 0.5 higher than lowest sub (ex - 3, 4, 7, 7 = 3.5)<br /><br />3) 2 low subs, 2 high subs = low sub (ex - 4, 4, 7, 7 = 4)<br /><br />As for cracking a beckett case, do a thread search as I have posted how to do this before.<br /><br />BVG gets no respect because, I believe, that there is a higher percent of altered material in their cases compared to sgc, psa and gai (specifically referring to pre-war). However, when a card in a BVG case is not altered, chances are that it is graded accurately to low.<br /><br />Good luck!

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Posted By: <b>Brent Butcher</b><p>Yes, I have cracked BVG holders and resubmitted to psa with good luck. Usually a bump up grade wise BUT that lower edge does look a little to sharp and doesn't look right although I guess it could be the sleeve BVG uses that is causing it to look like that. Be careful breaking a card out of a Beckett holder....very tough! I usually wrap the card in a towel and hit the edges with a hammer. Once you have the plastic edge completely broken off you can pry it apart with a screwdriver and then just cut the card out of the sleeve. Good luck!

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Posted By: <b>Brent Butcher</b><p>almost the way Richard explained it but not quite. If centering or corners is the lowest sub the highest it can get bumped up is .5 point. If the edges or surface is the lowest sub it can get a full point bump.<br /><br />Example:<br /><br />cent = 5<br />cor = 8<br />edges = 8<br />sur = 8<br /><br />then the card would grade a 5.5<br /><br />cent = 8<br />cor = 8<br />edges = 5<br />sur = 8<br /><br />then the card would grade a 6<br /><br />When I first got back into collecting about 3 1/2 years ago Beckett is pretty much all I used for grading because they are only a couple of miles from my house. SGC is now my grader of choice for pre-war.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I had a nice card graded similarly by SGC for a small stain on a blank back. A front stain I'd expect SGC to knock it down to ex or maybe even vg-ex<br /><br />If you want a false sense of higher grade, send it to PSA and let them do one of <br />their (in)famous ST qualifiers.

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>I know that was in jest. I've read here long enough to know that.<br />Right now and in the forseeable future i will be using GAI for the reasons listed above primaraly. But also i really like there cust. service. I don't really look for resale value ( i give PSA that) but nothing else as far as service or accuracy and catching those nasty problems that are so prevelant in our hobby unfortunatly.<br /><br />Does bvg even still do vintage cards or is that arm still in buisness ? Danny Fischer told me that usually things were submitted to them after rejection from psa/sgc in the past.

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>They do vintage cards, still. They just ran a big ad in Old Cardboard for their vintage grading service, soliciting vintage submissions.<br /><br />The problem with the ad was that two of the vintage cards they pictured in Beckett holders were reprints.<br /><br />So they haven't instilled much confidence in me, for sure.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Interesting. I did not ever notice the bias against centering and corners before. I will check some of my cards when I get home tonight to see if I can find any exceptions to your rule.<br /><br />As for BVG, they are still grading vintage and Beckett offered several vintage specials in recent months in an attempt to flood the market with their holders.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Thoughts ???? Top right has a ding as does the top left. and bottom right has the top layer of the corner missing.<br />Still looks very nice though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1126143716.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>BlackSoxFan</b><p>why does this look trimmed? I don't assume to actually know what i'm talking about, but it just looks trimmed to me.<br><br>Regards,<br />Black Sox Fan<br /><br />- - - - - - - - -<br /><br />I'm Smart Enough To Know, There Are A Lot Of People Who Know More Than I Know<br /><br /><a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new">BlackSoxFan.com</a><br /><a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>To give there idea's on this. There appear to be good buy's every now and than on the BVG stuff. But if they are trimmend than i would like to know. I mean i've heard that BVG is very conservitive on there grade's but...........

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Depending on how the right corners look, and how the other two look too...I would say this is either right on, on grade...or maybe a half grade low (could be a 5.5). I don't think the corners warrant a 6.....again from the way I see the scans....and this is just my opinion...regards

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Posted By: <b>Damian Anderson</b><p>I have submitted many T206's to PSA and I feel confident in saying that this Street would get a 6 even on a bad day if submitted to them. Beckett holders are tough. Take your time and be careful if you decide to crack.<br /><br />D

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>they in my opinion have been very tough on all cards and pretty good, but of late, I have seen 2-3 cards in the past month that would indicate a change of sort snd want to reap the money end of it regardless. Hope not.

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Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>I would have to agree with Dan and Ted. It sure looks trimmed, although the slight diamond cut is consistent top to bottom. If you look along the bottom edge, you can see what appears to be a bit of a lift, which is consistent with a trimmed card. <br /><br />Not badmouthing Beckett at all, but they don't really know their way around prewar cards. They have next to no experience in handling or grading them. They've even inquired about purchasing T206 commons from a friend of mine, simply to get practice grading them. Also, they seem to view card characteristics much differently than the big three. Eg...Various examples of "1" corners would be consistent with a VG card from SGC or PSA. <br /><br />For BVG to be a real player in grading prewar stuff, they need to retain the services of some experienced folks who are used to dealing with vintage cards.