Joe Jackson Barnstorming Photo [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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08-14-2005, 06:51 PM

Posted By: RhysIt came from a local Ohio estate and was from the family of the team owner named Perry marks. I got several e mails about the photo, about 20 people said it was definetly him, including some who certainly would know and some auction houses as well, and 2 people thought it was not him. What you have to remember about this picture is that it is 1923 which is three years after he was banned from baseball. I spent hours and hours making phone calls and trying to contact people in Zainesville Ohio to do as much research as I could (all of which was on the ebay description) and after coming to an impasse because of the problem with assumed names and lack of newspaper accounts of these games I decided to list it on ebay. I am convinced it is him, and my research indicates that it is most likely him as well. When you start to add up the circumstantial evidence surrounding the piece the odds are very heavily in favor of it being Jackson, but as the item said, I have no concrete proof mostly because of the assumed name problems. I was figuring about $700-$1,000 so others obviously share my opinion on the picture.

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08-14-2005, 06:55 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanI think Rhys is pretty up front about everything..and with photography technology and my familiarity with lens distortion from that era, it might be possible that the camera more than anything else accounts for the discrepency. Probably him, possibly not, but then again, if everyone (or at least enough people) think it's him...then it's not much different. BlackSoxFan

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08-14-2005, 07:12 PM

Posted By: scgaynorDefinitely looks like him, the ears, nose and eyebrows give him away. Scott

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08-14-2005, 07:16 PM

Posted By: RhysIf I had any intention of misleading anyone I would not have put up close up pictures which enlarged his head about 10 times so people could see every wrinkle under his eyes. I think that it is him and my research indicates that it most likely is, but there is nothing you can do with items like this except let people make their own decisions. I went to great lengths with my research on this, and I contacted everyone including the people who operate the Joe Jackson websites and the experts on him and although not all were in agreement on whether or not it might be him, there was noconsensus that it was not him or else I would not have sold it. This photo was shown to at least 50 people before I sold it and the consensus was that it could very well be, but nobody could say for sure 100% one way or another. After all the research I could do and no more experts to show it to, I felt comfortable listing it and I stand behind that. If you do not personally think it is Joe, that is completely fine and others probably agree with you, but judging from all the hours of research I have put in and the countless people I have shown it to, that opinion is in the minority. All you can do with an item like this is lay it all out there and make sure there are large scans and let people decide if they want it or not based on what they read and see and feel. I tried my best to do that and I think my item description was very upfront about the research I had and the facts that were still missing for 100% verification.

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08-14-2005, 07:23 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanagreed

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08-14-2005, 07:45 PM

Posted By: BrianLooks like Joe to me. What an amazing photo! I wonder what he was thinking at that moment... Brian

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08-14-2005, 07:59 PM

Posted By: joe brennan I also watched this piece soar above my budget. Great piece Rhys. I also want to thank Rhys and Scott for helping me add to my collection. I purchased a neat 1868 print of the Harvard 9 from Rhys and Scott is the one I purchased my newest T206, that SGC 40 Cobb that I posted earlier. Thanks Guys. Joe "I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability" Ron White

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08-14-2005, 08:03 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanyes joe, but did you cry and scream like i did! I must have shot at least three people during Grand Theft Auto to get out my anger! LOL

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08-14-2005, 08:58 PM

Posted By: CraigThe guy standing 4th from the right, next to the black player looks a lot like Sam Crawford. Any thoughts?

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08-14-2005, 09:38 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaIMO there is no doubt that this is Joe Jackson in that photo. When you consider that the guy standing to the right of Jackson is a dead ringer for Eddie Cicotte and the guy to his right is a dead ringer for Lefty Williams, and then you got a guy in the front row who is a dead ringer for Happy Felsch, and don't even mention the fact that the guy in the Army uniform is a dead ringer for Sam Crawford....well there's not much more you can say unless this Marks guy was running around the country with a bunch of impersonators. edited to remove the Army reference because after further research I could not find a link between the Army and Crawford.

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08-15-2005, 04:49 AM

Posted By: Mike HRhys, I was in no way questioning your ethics or knowledge of this piece. I was simply stating my oppinion regarding the likeness.

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08-15-2005, 02:02 PM

Posted By: JoanJoe Jackson is my all-time favorite and to answer Brian's question, I think he is thinking--MMM Hmm, Yes sir, these here jerseys are purty, REAL purty... and one of these days I'monna ask one of these here nice fellers what they says.

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08-15-2005, 02:57 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI pulled both of the pictures above and resized them to equalize head sizes. The salient features of the images line up--eyes, mouth--like whaty they do with facial recognition software. It is Jackson. Can't say about the others. Still, an amazing insight into what it must have been like for these guys after the scandal and banishment. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1124139610.JPG"> Above is the composite image made by reducing the opacity of one image 50% and putting it on the other one. Below are the two images side by side. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1124139676.JPG">

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08-15-2005, 03:05 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisNow THAT is cool! Can you morph me with Babe Ruth? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-15-2005, 03:34 PM

Posted By: Scott Forrestthat his ears got so much smaller over the years.

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08-15-2005, 03:59 PM

Posted By: Mike HAnd his eyes moved closer together

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08-15-2005, 04:01 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanOnce again, camera lenses make a difference gentleman!

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08-15-2005, 04:03 PM

Posted By: MWIn my opinion, it's not Joe Jackson. Joe Jackson's eyes are further apart, his ears are much larger (relative to the size of his head -- see image below), and his nose is longer and shaped differently. I don't think that's Lefty Williams, Eddie Cicotte or Hap Felsch either. <img src="http://www.rookiesquantities.com/Images/TSN92_444.jpg">

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08-15-2005, 04:24 PM

Posted By: Josh EvansNot Joe Jackson Josh

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08-15-2005, 04:50 PM

Posted By: DJThis should be the newest voting topic. Is it or isn't. My vote is "ISN'T" as well. I don't think so. I also believe Rhys to be one of the most honest dealers around. DJ

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08-15-2005, 04:53 PM

Posted By: Jim CrandellThere is no way that is Joe Jackson.

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08-15-2005, 05:23 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaI don't believe that the player identified as Felsch in the photo is him. Felsch was a righty and that player has a lefthander's glove on. I still think that Joe Jackson and Sam Crawford are in this photo.

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08-15-2005, 06:32 PM

Posted By: HWI do not think that it is Joe Jackson either. I also find it hard to believe that if the famous Joe Jackson was going to play for a local team that there would not be corresponding news stories.

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08-15-2005, 07:06 PM

Posted By: RhysThere is a lot of evidence of Jackson in Ohio at this time playing for other company teams just like this one and sometimes it was publicized and sometimes it was not. He played under his real name sometimes in 1923 and under assumed names as well so Jackson got as much publicity as he wanted to get at this time. People can think what they want of the photo, but as an attorney I could put on a much stronger case FOR this being Jackson than it not being Jackson based on the circumstantial evidence I have compiled on the team owner, where Jackson was at this time, the heights of the players, the other company teams he was playing for at this same time period etc. Like I said, people can think what they want but this item was shown to numerous people before it was even considered to be sold and the overwhelming consenus based on the info I had and the picture itself was that it was probably Jackson; and these were Jackson experts who would certainly know if it was not him. Rhys

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08-15-2005, 07:58 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestIf this were not a team shot with "Jackson" taking up only a very small part of the photo, you might be correct that an oddball lense/angle shrunk his ears and pushed his eyes together. We went through a similar process with Patrick's photo of "Honus Wagner" and based on that experience, there is only one thing that is certain: if someone examines these two photos closely and decides that it is Joe Jackson, nothing is going to change their mind.

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08-15-2005, 07:59 PM

Posted By: Peter SpaethMy best uneducated subjective guess is no, principally because the person in the picture does not appear to have Jackson's very distinctive nose -- the nose is quite distinctive in both MW's Conlon card and in the inset photo. The difference in the set of the eyes and the ears is less persuasive but somewhat compelling as well.

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08-15-2005, 08:46 PM

Posted By: JulieThis picture was taken 10 years earlier: <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/Joe.jpg"> Oh--won it from Lelands.

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08-15-2005, 09:12 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthLook at many of the close ups on <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/. I think the person in the photo is Jackson--too many similarities in the facial features. Greg

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08-15-2005, 09:51 PM

Posted By: Donald JohnsonIn looking at that website, it does look like Jackson to me as well.

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08-15-2005, 10:02 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaI'm not sure how old Jackson is in the two photos in this thread, but there is some time difference in them. Ballplayers from this era aged prematurely from spending every day in the spring, summer, and fall playing day games. Tris Speaker looked like he was 60 years old when he retired as a player. Eddie Collins same thing. Anyone ever seen Ty Cobb as a rookie? He doesn't even look like the same person just three years later.

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08-16-2005, 01:48 AM

Posted By: Joani think it looks more like Carl Mays; this should be in the Carl Mays thread. His coconut is real big; too big... for Joe.

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08-16-2005, 05:37 AM

Posted By: Mike HIn every picture from the black betsy site and here, his ears (cab doors) are as long as his nose or slightly longer than his nose. The lobes start between his upper lip and the tip of his nose also. This guy doesn't have big ears and they get bigger not smaller as you age. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1124192205.JPG">

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08-16-2005, 07:47 AM

Posted By: AnonymousIn my expert opinion, this photo does not contain Joe Jackson, nor Lefty Williams. While I will agree there are some similarities in the two men, there are more differences in the two that lead me to my conclusion that this IS NOT Joe Jackson. Yes, Jackson played a few games in Ohio in 1923, but a very few...as he was in Bastrop, LA for the first part of their baseball season and then it was on to Americus, GA and to Waycross, GA. The key to proving this IS or IS NOT Joe Jackson lies with someone in Zanesville, OH. Someone there needs to go to the library and read the newspaper accounts of the day for the year 1923 (probably the Spring months of that year or after September of that year...because we know where he was in May, June, July, most of August and early September). I would need some sort of proof (newspaper accounts) before I would put my blessing on this being Joe Jackson. It is hard for me to believe someone paid that kind of money without hard proof. It is my hope that someone here can prove me wrong. I would be happy to apologize to everyone here if I get the hard proof I'm looking for....as I am trying to track down where Jackson was before Bastrop, LA.......I know he played a few games in Ohio...as I said before....but it was a very few games...best I can tell (by timeline analysis). And by the way....I don't see Wahoo Sam nor Hap in this photo either.......... Mike Nola Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-16-2005, 09:55 AM

Posted By: Julie Vognar<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-16-2005, 12:41 PM

Posted By: AnonymousWell....I don't know it all....and sure don't claim to.....but I have analyzed this photo extensively and passed it on to Jackson family members as well as other Jackson experts. None of these folks think it's Joe Jackson and I even tried to sell it up to them that it was Joe (even though I did not believe it to be him)....just wanted to see what they would say..... Again, NONE of these folks thought it was Jackson. The ears were something everyone said when responding back to me. I have never heard of anyone's ears getting smaller as we grow older...in fact...I do believe the ears continue to grow!!! Again...I would LOVE for someone to prove me wrong on this as that would put another piece in my puzzle as I search out everywhere Jackson played post-banishment. So, if someone is in the Zanesville, OH area....would love to hear from them with information proving that Jackson did INDEED play for this team. I'm not waiting by my email box for that though................ Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-16-2005, 01:01 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI just went back to the eBay listing and looked at some of the comments. Someone there thought Eddie Cicotte is in that photo......WRONG. Ole Knuckles ain't in that photo. The one that got me though was someone thought the third player from the right, first row was Happy Felsch. If you will notice that guy has a glove on the right hand...with the ball in the left. Felsch threw right handed.......even if the guy looked like Hap...which he doesn't....that little tidbit should tip you off that it ain't Hap.

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08-16-2005, 02:04 PM

Posted By: scgaynorYou should ask the family if they know who this guy is, since the guy in the "Mark" photo has either the same mother or the same father as Shoeless Joe. It seems like too much of a coincidence for two guys that ugly to be playing Baseball at the same time, and in the same state no less. How many of the family members actually met him before he died 54 years ago, or do they know him only from the same pictures that we see. I think that the big floppy ears match up just fine, it is just that the images were taken from different angles. The nose is dead on, as are the eyebrows, bags under the eyes, cleft chin and even the lines below his cheeks. If it is not Joe, I feel sorry for the poor bastard who was unfortunate enough to be his twin. Scott

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08-16-2005, 02:23 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaI still think it's Jackson as well. Someone emailed me last night and said that there was no way that the photo had Lefty Williams in it either because the guy who is purported to be Williams in the photo has an earlobe and there are no known photos of Williams that show he has an earlobe. If anyone out there has a copy of Eight Men Out by Asinof there is a Brace photo in the book that clearly shows Lefty Williams has an earlobe. I seriously think there are so many things going for this photo to be genuine that it would be a statistical oddity to have four men on the same team who all resemble former major leaguers.

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08-16-2005, 02:47 PM

Posted By: AnonymousTrust me......I want this to be Joe Jackson more than anyone here...except maybe the guy that paid that huge amount of cash for it.....for my own personal reasons.....but I simply do not see Jackson in this man.....Again...I agree there are some mannerisms about the way he stands and all that do remind me of Joe Jackson. But when I compare the photos I have of Joe Jackson in 1923 from all different camera angles....I simply don't see it. The Jackson family members all knew Joe (obviously not from this time...but later in life.....and you'd think even years later they would be able to recognize one of their own....and NONE of them did). Neither did any of the other Jackson experts around the country when contacted. Again....please understand.....not trying to be a naysayer here....I WANT it to be Jackson too......I really, really do and I am hoping someone brings me the proof I need....a newspaper article......a video interview from their great, great grandfather that saw Jackson play with this team.....something. Come'on.....somebody out there reading this is within driving distance of Zanesville........do us and the guy that bought this thing a favor.....go read the newspaper accounts at the library and prove me wrong....... Again...I WANT to be proved wrong on this one.....I'll gladly apologize to everyone here....cause that will help me put another piece in my puzzle......... Help a brotha out!! Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-16-2005, 03:23 PM

Posted By: ZachI live no more than 40 or so minutes from Zanesville so I may be able to make a trip to there. Not saying anything for sure but I should know by the end of tonight. Does anyone know the libraries or possibly the historical societies phone number so I can call to ask their hours ? Thanks

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08-16-2005, 04:30 PM

Posted By: Chris CountsI've been following this subject for the past two days and it is fascinating. On a whim, I called the Zanesville Press Recorder and talked to an editor. I related to him the suggestions on this board that someone research the 1923 Zanesville box scores and game stories. He was aware of the controversy, but had only seen Shoeless Joe's photo, which evidentally was cropped from the team photo and e-mailed to him. He said mine was the second call today he received about Shoeless Joe. I gave him the web address of this forum, so hopefully he'll at least take a look. By the way, he related another curious fact about the Zanesville ball club — Whitey Wietelmann was a big star for the team in the mid 20s. Whitey later was a middle infielder for the Braves (Bees?) in the mid-40s, but is best known as a longtime San Diego Padre player and coach, both in the PCL (player and coach) and majors (coach). He was so revered in San Diego that he earned the nickname "Mr. San Diego Baseball ... I think there is even a Mother's Cookies card of Whitey.

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08-16-2005, 05:29 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaI called the Saunders County Museum in Wahoo, Nebraska today to ask them if they knew if Sam Crawford ever coached for the Army team or if he barnstormed for a Zanesville, Ohio team and they could not come up with anything for me showing he did either. Their timeline has him going straight from the Majors to the PCL then on to coaching at USC. I did a proquest search today and could not find any stories relating to Crawford and the Army. I did find in a proquest search that in January of 1923 he was opening a baseball college, but I could not get further information because proquest was not working right for me today and I could only access the headlines.

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08-16-2005, 07:30 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognarsaid, they wished they had had the money to win the photo. IF I had had the money, I would have wanted someone to show me that he played on that team in that state in 1923. I didn't think the other two mentioned players looked like Felch and Williams, but I did think the "Joe" looked like Joe. Especially the nose! But I wasn't sure, and there aren't any names on the photo...I think I would have passed, reluctantly.

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08-16-2005, 07:45 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestYou would have made a wise decision.

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08-16-2005, 08:02 PM

Posted By: Mike HI agree. $2,800 for a picture that the experts and family don't believe is him, along with ears that are 20% too small, is a biiiig gamble.

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08-16-2005, 08:35 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanListening to all the controversy, i must say i'm glad I didn't bid on this item. I believe Rhy's to be an honest and straight forward seller... I also believe that many people on here chimming in on this topic are like me, very uneducated...which is why i have stated my uneducated opinion as it is probably him but maybe not..... it is helpful to hear from real experts and i must say that from what i have heard from them it does not appear to be Jackson. I am glad i did not spend my money on this.

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08-17-2005, 06:55 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestI think most of the people commenting here are "educated" to some degree on this subject, just not "experts". There are some on the board who deal with vintage photographs, and are photography buffs (actually have manual 35mm cameras with a variety of lenses and have been using them for 30+ years) - thus, know the effects that various lenses, angles, focus, etc., have on the final image. So it's not that difficult to make an educated guess based on various points on "Joe"'s face. The important thing is that ALL points must match, not just a bunch of them. You can't say "well, the nose, eyes, chin, all match up, and it really, really looks like him, so forget about the ears". Also, it's imperative that the library research be done - I know Rhys, like him and trust him, but I think this is one of the first things a judge in his hypothetical case would ask. "So what did you find in the Zanesville newspaper microfiche?" Finally, you have a Joe Jackson expert (blackbetsy website rep) commenting on this thread - his opinion is the same as many of the "uneducated" people you refer to. But it's likely that Zanesville will turn up nothing, in which case it will be impossible for anyone to know definitely whether or not this is Joe Jackson. But we can argue and vote all day, and that is still fun.

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08-17-2005, 08:33 AM

Posted By: AnonymousAgain....the first step here is to search the newspaper accounts....and that may involved looking at the entire 1923 run. Joe was known to slip off to the North when the paycheck was right and it may have only been for one game or a game here and there....so this may involved someone reading every day for the entire year of 1923....not an easy thing to do....but something that I feel has to be done to rule this out. I can help out here by saying that Joe was in Americus, GA from July 20, 1923 to August 28, 1923. Then there is a break in his known whereabouts from August 29 - September 7th. On September 7th and 8th we know he is in Waycross, GA for two games against Charleston, SC...with the newspaper reporting on September 9th that Joe has returned to Americus where he will operate a pool hall for the winter (the Pool Hall deal did not happen.....but he did return to Americus for a short period...then the report was he was heading back to Savannah for the winter.) He did play for Bastrop, LA for a period of time before coming to Americus on July 20th...but I do not have those exact dates handy. One thing that was mentioned by the guy selling the photo is Jackson played under assumed names.....which to an extent is true. From my research, Joe tried playing under assumed names in 1922.....but that didn't last long......folks usually figured him out once he unleashed that black bat of his and his long throws to the plate from deep center or left. By 1923....and from all the known places he played in 1923....he is known in newspaper accounts of those towns....as the great Shoeless Joe Jackson of former major league fame.....no more assumed names. If he did play in Zanesville under an assumed name....it probably would have been under the names: Jefferson Walker, Joe Walker (rare), Joe Josephs (used a lot in 1922)....or the rumored Gus Johnson (Gus Johnson was an actual ballplayer of the period...and someone Joe had played with.....and I haven't found any proof that Joe actually used this....other than rumors in books that he used Gus Johnson while in Bastrop, LA in '23). Sooooooooo......the sad reality is....even if we do this great task of searching the entire year of 1923...we may not come up with anything.....but if someone does do the research....I would like to know the names of the players on the team....as I have other names that Joe could have used in 1922.......so that may shed some light on the situation as well. Looking forward to hearing from anyone with proof on this very interesting photo............. Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-17-2005, 08:48 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestI had never done extensive microfilm research until this summer when my son and I hit about ten different libraries in Iowa, several local museums, and interviewed many old-timers in their nineties. We were looking for things that happened in the 1910's, but still were able to find people who remembered their parents and long-deceased friends talking about these events. We were also in a local museum and noticed a photo of a baseball team on the wall - closer inspection showed Babe Ruth and Bob Meusel who were barnstorming across the midwest in the '20s and played against/with the local team - we started asking around and several old-timers remembered hearing about the event. From there we were able to find more in the newspapers and local college archives. These are things you will not find out from where you are sitting now. I can tell you from recent experience that it will not take you that long to go through a year or two of microfilm - you can count on a solid weekend in the library, about six hours each day, including time to print interesting pages. The toughest part is loading the film on the machine.

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08-17-2005, 02:09 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI noticed on the black betsy website a picture of Joe playing in Richfield, Ohio in 1923. Richfield is not all that far from Zanesville , even for that time. So, why not ?

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08-17-2005, 02:13 PM

Posted By: Brian<img src="http://www.blackbetsy.com/imagefarm/1923eppsbrewingco-richfield-ohio.jpg"> That guy's ears are too large -- that can't be Joe <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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08-17-2005, 02:37 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanScott - my comment was not made to be insidious. But i do feel that many people on here, once again, myself included, are uneducated as to the nature of this question. In otherwords, just because someone can look at a picture and voice and opinion does not mean it is a well arrived at conclusion. I have known of Mike for a long time now, although i've never conversed with him, or met him, i do believe him to be an exception to the aforementioned statements. Also, if anyone in here was a photography expert (of which Adam seems to be at least a novice) and thus better at it than most of us, they could talk numbers - in other words - the nose is .35 inches above the ears in one but .37 in the other or something to that effect - maybe someone good with photoshop could do the same, although photoshop is the one thing i can't do on a computer. Perhaps a math expert could arrive at the same information - but i haven't been in to math since i changed my major halfway through frosh year at college. I think this is a wonderful question, and i love hearing opinions, but many of them are unsubstantiated beyond a person's own inclinations and ideas - once again, myself at the head of this group. Regardless of whether they share Mike's conlcusions, people on here are just jumping on the band wagon. I myself thought it was probably joe but possibly not. Now i think it's probably not, but could be. Also, your analysis of my photography comment was right, except for the fact that you analyzed it the other way around. You didn't think of the contrary. I was not comparing the small photo to the large photo, rather, the larger to the smaller - If that makes sense - i hope it does. Lastly, i will say that something no one on here has seemed to mention is the following.... it is entirely possible that a newspaper clipping substantiating Joe's location at the time of the photo, could still leave open the possibility that it is or is not him. Don't get me wrong, this may be impractical, but hypothetically, just because joe was in Z-ville at the time of this photo doesn't mean it is him in it. It will depend on what the newspaper says specifically. BlackSoxFan

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08-18-2005, 07:27 AM

Posted By: AnonymousUpon further thought on this......... Based on all the other towns Joe Jackson played in (post-banishment)....when he arrived it was a big day for the local newspapers.....in other words that made a very BIG deal of it. I would assume the same to be true for Zanesville (again...if he used his real name...and I have reason to believe at this time (1923) he was using his real name when playing ball for these teams. Joe had already tested "the waters"...those waters being whether MLB had jurisdiction over him playing in those leagues....and found out they DID NOT....so he started using his real name at that point). But for argument sake....lets say he DOES use his real name in Zanesville......then even if it's only for one game......trust me when I say this....the newspapers would have made a big deal out of it. Quite frankly.....this very picture possibly appeared in the paper at that time (that would be the ideal best situation....that this photo appears in the Zanesville paper and that it lists Jackson there....that would be GREAT!!!). I can promise you....if Jackson was there in 1923 and used his real name....and they had a paper in Zanesville at the time.......trust me...it WILL be in there and they would have made a big deal over it. My dad saw Joe in Waycross, GA in 1924 and 1925 and he said it was a very big deal in Waycross....the papers made a fuss over it (which I have the newspaper copy to prove that statement), he said that the town shut down at 3:30 so every person in town could attend the first game Joe played there. He said the Waycross team didn't have a uniform for Joe to wear...so he wore his 1917 White Sox uniform (upon further research from me....not only was it just any 1917 White Sox uniform....it was the 1917 special World Series uniform). My dad remembered it had a flag on the sleeve and it was brightly colored. Anyway....I say this as a way to show it was a very big deal when Jackson showed up to play ball in these towns....so it shouldn't be hard to spot on microfilm (again....if he played under his real name....the work comes in if he didn't play under his real name). If I don't hear something from someone on this group soon concerning that research, I will inquire about an inter-library loan of that microfilm to my local library....that's how much I want to KNOW one way or the other whether this guy is Jackson or not. Thanks for allowing me to spew forth on this great forum...and when you guys have had enough of me.....tell me to SHUT UP!!!....and I'll be gone!!! To BlackSoxFan.....I read your post and if you ever want to converse with me directly....feel free to, I'm usually available....send an email to shoeless@blackbetsy and my staff will get it to me....that goes for anyone wanting to discuss Jackson related issues....be glad to talk to anyone, anytime. Thanks, Mike Nola Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-18-2005, 07:34 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestI didn't think you were being insiduous, but I also don't think pulling ot a micrometer is necessary in this instance. JMO

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08-18-2005, 08:31 AM

Posted By: Chris CountsMike, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I contacted the Zanesville Press Recorder. You might consider contacting them. The newspaper dates back to the 19th century, and when I contacted an editor there, he was quite familiar with the Mark team. In fact, as we talked, he pulled out and described a Mark team photo from about 1925 with names on it, Whitey Weitelmann being the only name I was familiar with. The newspaper is easy to track down ... I just looked it up on Google. Regarding your father's experience in Waycross, Georgia, I suspect that in the South, there was much greater support for Joe. In 1923, many Southerners were still deeply suspicious of Northerners (and I'm not just talking about Ty Cobb!). It is quite likely that Joe was treated like royalty in many places in the South, but I doubt he recieved the same reception in the North. Just my two cents ...

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08-18-2005, 09:29 AM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaMy guess is that Jackson was just as admired in the North as he was the South at the time, and especially in Ohio where he played for the Indians. It may not have been the reverence that he and Ty Cobb recieved from Southerners, but I doubt he would have felt the need to hide his name when playing for the Mark team. It also seems likely that the Mark team which had a stadium big enough for over 4,000 fans would have wanted him to use his real name.

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08-18-2005, 10:56 AM

Posted By: AnonymousAs I said in an earlier post.......Jackson had tested the "waters" where MLB's jurisdiction was concerned.....once he determined MLB couldn't really touch him in those outlaw type leagues.....he used his real name. The only reason Joe tried to play under assumed names in 1922 is that he loved the game and feared he wouldn't be hired to play in those leagues if he used his real name (all Joe Jackson wanted to do was play ball......play anywhere someone was willing to pay for his services). From my research, though even when he used an assumed name......it sometimes only lasted for a few innings before someone figured out that this Jefferson Walker guy or this Joe Josephs guy was indeed the great Shoeless Joe Jackson....sometimes it went the entire game before someone was tipped off after the fact. Most of the time, the teams that hired Joe had to forfeit those games to the other team or the other team requested that be done (sometimes it happened....sometimes the game stood as played). I believe by 1923 he was playing under his real name (I know that to be a fact for his time in Americus, GA and Waycross, GA in 1923). In 1922, Joe was in the New York City area playing ball there....but all the newspapers reported seeing him out and about NYC (they used his real name). Joe was doing a vaudeville act at night and playing ball during the day. The papers reported about the vaudeville act using his real name.....yet Joe could slip out of the city during the day to play ball in New Jersey under an assumed name...and in most cases no one was the wiser (at least for a while). I think that if we find this man to be Joe Jackson.....that he will be listed in the papers as JOE JACKSON....and not some assumed name. Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-18-2005, 11:49 AM

Posted By: sagardSo what happens to the value of the photo if someone does find Newspaper records of Jackson playing in Zainesville?

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08-18-2005, 12:26 PM

Posted By: AnonymousWell....the memorabilia world is a whacky world. In my opinion....the photo would probably bring what was paid for it if auctioned in the right manner. It all depends on if a bidding war breaks out on it or not. I have several original team photos of Joe during his outlaw days.....and I never paid more than $100.00 for any of them.....not sure what would make this one so special compared to say a 1924 or 1925 team photo of Joe....or the 2 original 1923 Americus team photos (do not own those...both know where they are). I believe even if it turns out to be Jackson, the buyer will quite possibly not get their money back out of it.....$2,800.00 is a lot of money to pay for a photo...considering the provenance (or in this case...lack thereof). Lets just put it this way....I would not be sleeping well at night had a paid that kind of coin for a photo...and then have a few folks tell me it may not be Joe Jackson. I'd be on the next flight to Zanesville and I would search until I found something....one way or the other. Several years ago....a company bought what was said to have been a game used Joe Jackson bat.....they then took that bat and sawed it up into little pieces and sold those pieces with a photo of Joe for a lot of money. They sent one to me and it had a picture on the back of what the bat looked like. As soon as I saw it...I knew it was not a bat that had ever been used by Joe Jackson. This bat was a YMCA Joe Jackson bat.....those bats were shipped to our servicemen overseas during World War I....Joe Jackson never saw that bat...much less used it in a game situation. I was the guy that broke that to SCD, who ran a story on it...I also contacted the company, who promptly recalled all the ones that had sold. They later went out and bought and had authenticated a game used Jackson bat........ They sawed that one up too (two more pieces of history gone forever)....it's absurd.....and to top that off....they sold the supposed SAWDUST from when they sawed the bat up......man...I wish I could get some suckers on that one........sawdust....give me a break. The memorabilia world has gone mad............. My whole point on writing that book is this......even big companies make mistakes....they take the word of someone else without independent verification.....and it appears the buyer of this photo did the same. I do pray for their sake that we find out this IS Joe Jackson....my heart really does go out to them....for I fear the opposite is true. Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-18-2005, 12:44 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI just went back to my original email messages from the seller....and have come to discover.......I actually got this photo from two sources...... One of the sources sent me the photo and on the bottom of the photo is written in pen...."1929" or "1919"....looking at it....I'm leaning towards the "1919" based on how the person that wrote it wrote his "1". The second source (from the seller) looks like the "1929" or "1919" has been wiped off the bottom of the photo...either with white out....or it has been rescanned to send to me without notation of the year. Understand...."I ain't here to start no trouble...I'm just here to do the Super Bowl shuffle". But it makes me wonder what's going on here......who wrote the "1929" or "1919".....and why was it not on the second photo sent to me???? I have both of these photos if anyone would like to see what was send to me.....send me an email to shoeless@blackbetsy.com and I will forward to you. This means....if the year notation on the photo is a period dated notation....then we also have to look at newspaper accounts from 1919 (obviously it's not Jackson in 1919...but that quite possibly will tell us who IT IS!!). We also have to look at 1929, but if it's 1929....I can, with almost 100 percent accuracy..... tell you it's not Joe Jackson....this guy is no where near as big as Joe Jackson was in 1929...not even close......... But at this point...I want to know what this guy's name is regardless....I'm curious now.............. Again....I'm not trying to start any trouble.......just trying to come up with answers............ Something else to ponder............. Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-18-2005, 01:00 PM

Posted By: Brian"I do pray for their sake that we find out this IS Joe Jackson" If the ears don't fit, it ain't legit. Does it even matter what a newspaper might say? Some on this thread have said the ears physically proclude the guy from being Joe Jackson.

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08-18-2005, 01:22 PM

Posted By: AnonymousI guess "If the ears don't fit, it ain't legit" (which I like and agree with)....is something akin to "If he hit, you must acquit"....but I digress..... I totally agree...and have said so in the past....the ears do it for me....Joe had some big ole ears now....and this fellow doesn't measure up......but for the buyers sake....I really would like it to be him......$2,800.00 is a chunk a change for a $5.00 photo (maybe what it's worth if it ain't Jackson). Well.....what the newspaper account would do...would prove Joe Jackson played in Zanesville....lending to that reasonable doubt thing...growing smaller...much like the ears. The bigger question NOW is.....is this photo from 1923.....with my new discovery of the year notation on the photo that was sent to me....I first must have the question of when that notation was put on the photo.....Is it a period notation...or something added recently. If it's period....then in my opinion...the buyer paid entirely too much money for the photo....cause in 1919....my records show ole Joe Jackson as a member of the Chicago White Sox....and if it's 1929.......ah....they still paid too much money for the photo....cause Joe Jackson was a pretty hefty guy in 1929. The buyer really has to pray that someone here or elsewhere finds a reference to Joe Jackson in Zanesville in 1923 and hopefully find a copy of this picture in a 1923 edition of that paper.....else the buyer pretty much has a worthless photo. Very hard to move a photo such as this without very good provenance. Mike Nola Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-18-2005, 02:25 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestPersonally, the ears were enough for me and I wouldn't have bothered doing the Zanesville research AND I would not claim it was Jackson if I were trying to sell it, or pay "Jackson" prices if bidding. But if I DID believe it was Jackson, then I would do the research to confirm. Doesn't anyone else think it is strange that Chris spoke with the editor of the paper, who was familiar with the team, and he hadn't even heard a rumor that Jackson had played in his town?

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08-18-2005, 02:42 PM

Posted By: AnonymousScott, That exactly what I told the gentleman selling it when he contacted me. If he didn't want to take my word that it wasn't Joe Jackson....and I did ask him not to take my word for it....but that he should prove me wrong....go to Zanesville...or get an inter-library loan of the microfilm and do the research for yourself. I told him he couldn't possible begin to think about selling it without some sort of provenance....other than what he thought(seems I was way wrong about that). The guy was totally convinced it was Jackson and there was no amount of reason that would make him think otherwise. Like you.....I can't even imagine beginning to think about clicking on the "Bid" button....until I had hard proof that Jackson was there in whatever year this photo is from (again....I am getting that nasty sinking feeling that it wasn't even 1923....in fact....if I was the buyer....I would be in the restroom throwing up lunch). Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-18-2005, 06:22 PM

Posted By: Josh EvansHope you are all enjoying your summer's. Other thing that makes this not a photo of Joe Jackson besides the fact that it is not Joe Jackson... Went too cheap. None of the major photo people bid on this because they didn’t think it was Jackson. If it was him (not just looked a bit like him) it would have gone for $10-15,000. Nice image, nice condition, nice size. The only thing comparable I can think of was a team photo pre major league and that came from the family. Sold for like $12,000 even 15 years ago. Hey and this is a panorama. Small one but still a panorama. Josh

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08-19-2005, 06:13 AM

Posted By: AnonymousWell....I guess if the 1907 or 1908 Jackson team photos went for so much money.....then I guess my 1925 Waycross Coastliners team photo with Joe in it (only one known to exist....original photo used in newspaper).....is worth at least 7 or 8 thousand......... Any takers <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!

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08-19-2005, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Peter SpaethThe guy in the photo looks more like Jackson than the E90-1!

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08-19-2005, 09:29 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFannow now now...no reason to bring the e90-1 into this conversation!

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08-19-2005, 11:45 AM

Posted By: William Brumbach<a href="http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=49190&CurrentRow=1" target="_blank">Not a team photo, but this is from the most recent Mastronet auction.</a> <a href="http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=49710&CurrentRow=1" target="_blank">1917 Team Photo.</a> Hmm, link fixed, team photo lot added. Hope this one works, not sure what happened the first time around!

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08-21-2005, 12:31 AM

Posted By: Julie......

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08-21-2005, 07:07 AM

Posted By: Bob Rousseauhave been away from the board for a solid week with no internet access. this thread is a fine example of what I love about this board!

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08-22-2005, 07:43 AM

Posted By: AnonymousOver the weekend I took some time to search through the Zanesville newspapers of the day via NewspaperArchive.com. They have the 1923 and 1929 papers......., but I have not found any 1919 papers yet (still looking). In 1923....the paper refers to the team as the Zanesville Greys (not the Mark Americans or Mark Greys). There is a reference in a 1929 paper to the "old Mark Greys" team....but it doesn't tell us what year they were known as the Mark Greys.....could have been 1923......but when searching the 1923 papers.....all I found is reference to the Zanesville Greys. So far, I have not found any reference to Joe Jackson or any of his known assumed names.....but I still have a lot of searching to do. I will look through 1929.....but in my mind....that is almost an impossibility...due to the size of the man in this photo not comparing to the size that Joe Jackson was in 1929. I am starting to lean towards this being a photo from 1919....and while Jackson could very well have played on a barnstorming team after the 1919 World Series.....it is highly unlikely that this photo is of such an event....and it surely would not have happened prior to the start of the 1919 season....but I will continue to search this out. I will report back when and IF I find something of substance............ Mike Official Historian The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site <a href="http://www.blackbetsy.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackbetsy.com</a>/ Home of the Joe Jackson model Louisville Slugger baseball bat offer. The voice said "Build it and they will come".........and they have!!!!!