Have we begun to lose our way a bit? [Archive]

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08-20-2005, 03:44 AM

Posted By: John Is it just me or is it sad the hobby I loved as a child has come to this? In a hobby driven by perfection, meaningless reports and the numbers and grades assigned to them, lets not try to lose our way too much. What is an advanced collector, I think it’s a question that can’t be answered. Because I believe there is no such thing as an advanced collector. There are people with advanced collections sure, which have been assembled, by people with a love affair for collectibles. These same people driven by their passion and quest for these collections have educated them selves by sharing, learning and researching knowledge with an ultimate end result of growing their collections. These advanced collections are assembled and defined by a number of factors that range from wealth, timing, resourcefulness, and sheer drive to just plain dumb luck. I certainly don’t believe money to be the root of all-evil, and I’m a big fan of capitalism. However with that said I believe money can taint or distort ones perception of true value. I often wonder how many of these so called “top collectors” or “advanced collectors” would still hold their cards and collections with such reverence if all collectibles were deemed to have no monetary value as of tomorrow. Would they still be driven to get those 8’s and 9’s knowing that they held the same value as my 3’s and 2’s? I have met very few collectors in my 20 yrs collecting that truly would be comfortable with the above scenario, I myself am not 100% sure I would make the cut. I however have met one that stands out as a top contender, I’m sure you all have a few of your own. Let me tell you about the closest I have ever met to what I would call an advanced collector. For a couple of years when I was young I was allowed a few hundred dollars worth of cards for my collection every holiday (Christmas, too bad I wasn’t raised Jewish I would have a lot more cards 8 days of Hanukkah). After inquiring about my special interest in older cards we were turned to a man named Dan McKee Sr. My folks called Dan to make an appointment, we arrived at a very normal house in a normal neighborhood outside of Baltimore MD. We were met by Dan at the door and moved to his kitchen table, he offered my folks and I something to drink. Then we explained what I was looking for (T206’s). At the time I was about 13 and had about half the set from a large (Dumb Luck/Timing) find I had a year earlier. He excused himself from the table went down a door into the basement and returned with 2 binders. As he opened the books my heart went into my throat, my eyes became saucers. I had never seen so many cards, he and I used my crude checklist (Beckett #3) and picked out 30 or so commons that I needed. My Dad wrote Mr. McKee a check for a few hundred and we left. I would return a few more times over the next few years each time adding more to my collection, the most valuable thing of all was the knowledge I received each time meeting with Mr. McKee. On one special occasion after many return visits Mr. McKee asked me if I would like to see some stuff, we went downstairs together where he proceeded to show mountains of cards and sets (52-53-56 Topps Sets, 33-34-38 Goudey Sets, 38-39 Playball Sets, T205, T206, T3, T204 etc.). I was amazed and my parents were even more grateful that a man like Mr. McKee would take so many countless hours showing and talking to a kid about baseball cards, he always smiled and said, “I don’t mind really.” Truth be known I don’t think he did mind, in fact I think we both enjoyed it equally. Here was a man who loved this stuff as much a teenage boy, he wasn’t chatting up a kid to get at his rich parents to make a big sale, and in fact we were probably Mr. McKee’s smallest customers. Sure he was aware of the value and sold cards, but I always got the feeling that he would have had that basement full of wonderful cards if they weren’t worth the paper they were printed on. Here it is 15yrs later and I’m still collecting and loving it, broke or not. I guess my point is that true collectors aren’t defined by their vast amounts of knowledge, their huge bank accounts, the size and grades, or the amount of items in their collections even. True “advanced” collectors are simply defined by their love and passion for the hobby, and that has no mental, physical, monetary or numerical divide. Christmas 1991 T3 Hugh Jennings Value Who Knows? Grade Who Cares? Memories, Emotions on grading scale of 1-10…. well lets just say it’s the highest graded example in the world (or at least Wonkaticket’s world). <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/websize/T3%20Jennings.jpg">

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08-20-2005, 04:44 AM

Posted By: JohnGreat story John. And Amen to your assessment of the hobby. It has changed drastically in the past twenty years. I have to believe that if the bubble burst next week and all of our collections were worth next to nothing most of us would happily continue collecting without much grumbling. It is the love of history, baseball, and collecting mementos from a simpler time that fuels my fire.

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08-20-2005, 05:45 AM

Posted By: denniswonka,great post......"It is the love of history, baseball, and collecting mementos from a simpler time that fuels my fire" my feeling's too, johnb.

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08-20-2005, 08:20 AM

Posted By: identify7I think that we are all on target. I believe that we are collecting exactly what each of us prefers, and although our preferences differ, they are based on our assessments of what is right for each of us. Oh, I am sure that some (more likely most) of us make choices based in part on budgetary considerations, but in general collectors tend to accumulate what they want. Examples abound. There is a group of collectors called OBC who share the following commonality: they typically want lots of cards, representing many sets, and are willing to accept major comprimizes on card condition to yield maximum filling of wantlists. Closer to home: I have a Billy Sunday which is well worn, has pinholes in all four corners, and one in the center top, and center bottom. I know that this card was affixed to a wall somewhere, was taken down, handled, talked about and reinstalled on the wall many times throughout its life. I prefer this card over a pristine example which was accidentally lost in a book for a hundred years, and turned up by chance during our current collecting era. Others prefer their cards to have "been there" less than my Billy Sunday has. They are not wrong, nor am I. But we all make choices based on our assessment of each card. That is, some cards which I own are in better shape than others based on a non-financially oriented criteria which applies to my collection. I hope this makes sense.

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08-20-2005, 09:15 AM

Posted By: cmokingagree with identity7

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08-20-2005, 09:23 AM

Posted By: jay behrensTo me, an advanced collector is someone with vast and intimate knoweldge of what he collects. This doesn't mean they have know everything about everything, just what they collect and that collection doesn't need to be large. Hell, there are people out there with massive collections that don't know squat about their cards beyond some basic info about the player and set. A million dollar collection of slabbed cards doesn't automatically make you an advanced collector, no longer how long you've been in the hobby. Jay My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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08-20-2005, 11:22 AM

Posted By: Chris CountsJohn, I agree with just about everything you say. There is a part of me, though, that is grateful for the emphasis so many collectors and investors are placing on "perfect" cards. I can pick up good deals on nice but flawed cards all day long, and then if by chance I get something really nice, I can cash it in for some more nice but flawed cards. By the way, I love the Turkey Red of Jennings, despite its "flaws" ...

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08-20-2005, 11:24 AM

Posted By: JulieBen kept me from feeling so competitive; I don't like that lately, in the chatroom, posting. Always feeling "less than" some other collector, because I have less money to spend. Also, a website makes it so easy to look at scans of your cards, you stop looking at the cards themselves. I still know what to bid on (very much looking forward to my PSA 1 OJ Boston Kelly portrait), but I'll just put it on my website and put it away....and look at the scan once in a while. Ted Black Sox Fan has given me a lot of help with my website, two board members have asked for my autograph--one for the poem on my website, and one (maybe everyone got the request) because of my collection--boy, is THAT a joke!--I haven't called Mark Macrae lately with one of those questions he always knows the answer to,l nor have I tried to write Joan (is her name even in blue?), and there's a book on early baseball that I ordered and received over two months ago that I haven't read yet. Perhaps it's all because nobody in my family is even slightly interested in baseball cards, and I will have to sell them all fairly soon... <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/bromide001.jpg"> (tiny Japanese bromide, 1949)

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08-20-2005, 11:46 AM

Posted By: David VarghaAlright, here's how I see it . . . Some people feel they are being looked down upon by those with larger and more expensive collections. So they in turn look down upon those people. Some people feel others are too competitive and elitist, so they take an elitist stance about not being competitive. Some people are happy that their collections are worth alot more, but unhappy that cards cost more. Others long for the "good old days" when it was impossible to find things (no Internet) and the card you were looking for showed up in the SCD ad in the copy that you received two weeks late (and after the card had been sold). They are disappointed by the crass commercialism of the market today. Some people look down their noses at people who use grading services and still others think people who buy raw cards only are foolish and naïve. I have even heard of (gasp!) people who collect cards from the 60's and 70's (but these are only unsubstantiated rumors). I say, it's only pieces of cardboard with no intrinsic value whatsoever. We all need to lighten up and realize that we aren't all clones of one another and respect other people's collecting values/preferences, whether we agree with them or not. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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08-20-2005, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanDavid, you just about hit the nail squzrely on the head. I've always felt that this hobby is one of the purest things left for me in this world. For the same reason I've never bet on a ball game I refuse to buy and sell cards for profit. Every card I own, from the ones worth thousands of dollars to those worth a penny, are not considered part of my 'assets' in life. If they go down in value dollar-wise it won't impact on my love for baseball cards. I only hope that I can pass this love for the game and the hobby onto my kids and that they'll have the same lack of monetary interest in it.

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08-20-2005, 01:29 PM

Posted By: DJThis is a good thread and only improved by the people who "get it". I agree with John and David. I long for the "good old days" and I will never forget how excited I got about getting SCD (been anti-SCD since 1996), the latest issue of CCP (Current Card Prices), the yearly Beckett and Eckes PG, a signature of my favorite Hall Of Famer (who wasn't charging for a signature) and mailing lists / catalogs in my mailbox from some amazing people. The catalogs were made out of newsprint and folded over and by the time I got the thing, the seller was already out of everything I wanted. In the late seventies, after the purchase of my first ever trading card (a 1976 Topps card of a Pirates player named Larry Demery at an antique store) for 10 cents, my father found it interesting that I would embrace by accident something he collected as a child. He told me the stories that we all heard with subtle variations. In this case, I would soon realize that he had tortured DeLong's in his bicycle spokes to create that flickering sound. What followed shortly for Christmas was an envelope full of 1953 Topps cards...Campanella, Mize, Feller, Berra, Wynn, Antonelli...the guys he remembered seeing in person because of his head start on life. I would befriend at a young age a veteran collector who was retired and fawned over tales as he flipped through album pages full of Goudey's and Playball's sharing the adventures of Hal Schumacher, Arky Vaughn and Lefty Grove. Stopping at every page to tell a tale. "Lefty Grove was the dirtiest son-of-a-bitch I ever saw" he would say and then flip to another page where the image of Rudy York would bring forth a story. The cards were not even close to Mint but he didn't care and neither did I. I don't even think the stars were complete as I don't remember the Bambino having feet. In 1990, with money in my bank account, I heard that he wanted to sell his collection. He was in his eighties and he had grand children and great-grand children and wanted to do something for them. He had planned ahead by purchasing a price guide and when I sat down, he told me how much he wanted for the whole collection. He said "$300,000". $300,000? He said he looked up each card and added the values up and came up with this. Of course this was absurd because he was using the EX-MT prices and charging me individually the retail price was simply not fair. The collection at the time was probably worth $25-30K at most. I told him that the price was bit high and tried to explain to him on how to price out cards due to condition. This for some reason angered him and he stormed out of the room grabbing a box full of packed binders. His wife said that he didn't want to sell his memories and apologized about his behavior. Nice lady. DJ

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08-20-2005, 02:51 PM

Posted By: Texas TedJohn: I agree whole heartedly with your sentiment of the original post but would like to correct one sentence ever so slightly. The thought of money being the root of all evil needs to be corrected based on the original quote. That would be from the Bible, and the actual reading is (paraphrazed) "the love" of money is the root of all evil. Money is merely a medium, but it is each person's lust for that money and what it will provide that can lead to evil. Texas Ted

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08-20-2005, 03:03 PM

Posted By: RhysJohn's story was great. It made me think of something in my life as well. My father is 71 years and will probably not make it to the end of the year due to bad health and a series of strokes. He was never much of a card guy but huge into antiques. One year for Christmas he found a VGish T3 of Eddie Collins and bought it for me as a surprise Christmas gift. Reflecting on my father and the things which we did in life together knowing he will not be here much longer than a few more months, really makes you think about the good in the hobby. Although everyone here knows I buy and sell cards for profit, I also have a collection which I cherish as well and this card, worth maybe $300-$400 to anyone else, is the centerpiece of my personal collection and that is really what it is all about. I would not trade this card that was given to me by my non-collector Father for T206 Wagner. It is important to note though that without dealers you have NO baseball cards for sale so dealers are a necessary part of the hobby. What makes me upset is when dealers have no respect or love for what they do and it is ALL about the money. Rhys

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08-20-2005, 03:46 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRhys, fair points about dealers and thanks for the sentiment about your dad. I think in times like this you should remember how lucky you are to have a father like that -- and to have him for as long as you have is even luckier.

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08-20-2005, 06:05 PM

Posted By: tbobWonderful post which said a lot of things a lot of us have been trying to say for years. I know whenever I get disappointed or blue because someone here can afford a $10,000 card with no grimace or dent to their bank account, can easily outbid me and I trudge along with 4s and 5s instead of 8s and 9s, I flip on the DVD player and watch Ken Burn's Baseball, particularly the chapter called "The Faith of Fifty Million People (Inning 3)" and it never fails to instantly make those blues go away and remind me of the people depicted on the little pieces of cardboard we cherish who are and were so much more important than their lithographic imprints. I still enjoy the cards and will collect them as long as I can. I think it would be nice as one poster commented, to be able to never sell a single card, but unfortunately for many of us, the ability to turn a profit means more money to acquire the cards we love. To me, the real treat and reason why I cherish the hobby so much has been the ability to meet and actually physically meet and talk with so many fellow collectors I would never have met. When I was explaining to my wife why I was going to Chicago to the National Convention, I told her it had very little to do with the cards (most are available elsewhere and often at better prices) but with the people I have grown to know, some only by their ebay handles. She understood and although she hardly shares my passion for the hobby, she understood. Thanks for sharing, John...

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08-20-2005, 06:34 PM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanJohn - WE should be used loosely. I don't believe we (that being you, myself, and many of the people on this sight) have lost our way one bit. I'm young and not making a lot of money ... so i put pretty much all of what i have into cards right now! That and gas (yikes $3.10 a gallon)!!!! Thank god my girlfriend makes good money and doesn't care if i can take her out to dinner that much! What a woman! I did not have the fortune of getting into pre-war cards heavily until i turned about 15....by that time prices had started to rise and i could only get what my dad was willing to buy me! Of course, he and i spent most of those years collecting a high-grade PSA Aaron collection. It was great b/c it was relatively inexpesnive (i think he is a greatly under appreciated player). Now that i am on my own i must buy what i want sparringly and use better judgment [Have i mentioned that I am doing anything but being responsible right now! LOL[ I have actually detailed my experience a couple of times on this site. The point being, is that as with anything in life, there are those that do it for what might be deemed "honest" and "good" reasons, and those that don't. At the end of the day, it is to each his own and I try and worry more about myself than i do others. Thank you Julie for your kind words. I'm just sorry that with my busy schedule i can't get your work done faster. I hope you find someone near and dear to you that will love the cards as you do, but if you do not, there are others out there that will. I am sure many of the people on this board would fall into that category. Just remember, what makes this great for those of us that do it for the love of the cards, is the knowledge. It is awesome getting to learn from these people! Regards, BlackSoxFan

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08-20-2005, 06:41 PM

Posted By: John HarrellI've been collecting baseball cards off and on since 1952 but with a bent toward prewar sets since 1990 and my perspective on collecting is much like Dan McKee's. I have nothing against those who want to collect the best of something but, in my opinion, the slabbing of cards has turned the focus of collecting from the card to the plastic slab and the opinions of those who placed the card in the slab. I consider myself to be a fairly knowledgable collector who can grade cards for himself without a middleman and since I collect only lower grade cards, slabbing only gets in the way and artifcially inflates what I have to pay. One of my prized possessions is a graded Chuck Klein card from the 36 Goudey set. The only problem with the card is that the slab says it is from the S&S Game Card set. Right year, wrong set. Aside from this problem with slabbing, I wonder who set up the grading standards for these various companies. For as long as I can remember, according to almost every card guide I saw, a VG card could have minor creases and various other defects. Now a card with a wrinkle but with pristine corners and centering is G, according to the slabbing companies. This sounds like the Emperor's New Clothes to me. I understand the need to authenticate pricey cards, but the grading system, to me, is out of whack (in addition to which, I can't get a slab into my binders). My usual practice is, on the rare occasion that a slabbed card is all I can get, to break it out so it can go into the binder. For those who feel the need to collect pieces of plastic, I say more power to you. Just don't slab up all the low grade stuff. I like to feel my cards. John

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08-20-2005, 10:55 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellHave we begun to lose our way a bit? This strikes me as one of those "I wish you'd modify your behavior to match mine" things. No, thanks. Collecting is a solitary pursuit with lots of variations. I'm interested in how others do it, but I'll stay convinced that my way is the best way. As everyone else does. I've met Dan Mckee, Sr. a couple of times and got to talk to him without a table in front of us at the recent National. Terrific guy with lots of stories and a lot of humility - the best kind. Bill

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08-20-2005, 11:07 PM

Posted By: barry arnoldwhat great wisdom, John. once again makes me extra proud to be a collector amongst such fine company, knowing that it doesn't matter if i'm a long way from primus inter pares. all the best Barry Arnold

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08-20-2005, 11:18 PM

Posted By: Anonymous...what other "hobbies" have a return on the dollars put into them ? without these things we collect having monetary value..where would we be...looking through the landfills in Maine?

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08-20-2005, 11:52 PM

Posted By: Juliewas negligible. The dollar signs sort of crept up on us...when I read the list of the cards I and my son bought in 1980-81, and the prices we paid...it's almost unbelievable! Didn't make it LESS fun because it was LESS expensive!

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08-21-2005, 01:11 AM

Posted By: BlackSoxFanBill - Please don't take offense to this, but as i see it...the day a person says: "I'll stay convinced my way is the best way.." is the day we lose one of the greatest qualities of humanity ... the ability to learn. I'm convinced that the way i collect now is the best way for me...but i refuse to accept that i might not learn something that will change my perspective completely Regards, Black Sox Fan - - - - - - - - - I'm Smart Enough To Know, There Are A Lot Of People Who Know More Than I Know <a href=www.blacksoxfan.com target=new>BlackSoxFan.com</a> <a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>