E card scarcity......seen any for sale - E103 [Archive]

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06-24-2005, 09:13 AM

Posted By: leonHey Folks, I have, coming in the mail to me, a nice E103 Williams Caramel M. Brown. I went ahead and bought it at a fairly high price as I think it could be an upgrade for me. Question. With all of the hoopalah of E90-E107 how many of the E103's are seen? My amateur guess is that they are rarer than any E90-E107, in general...not specific cards in sets but in general. I am not saying they are more valuable ( supply vs demand issue) but I have personally seen less of these than any of the aforementioned e card sets. Other's opinions? regards

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06-24-2005, 09:24 AM

Posted By: Brian McQueenLeon, I've been tracking this very thing the past few months. Since the beginning of the year, there has been signficantly more e107s on Ebay and in house auctions than e103s. Yet e103s don't appear to be flunctuating higher than any of the other tougher caramel sets. I think the reason for that is that demand and supply are changing for many of the tougher caramel sets at the same time. The more garden variety caramels are still regularly offered for sale, however one rarely sees e90-2s, e90-3s, e106s, e103s etc..etc...offered up anymore. I think its pretty safe to say that I've actually seen more e107s lately than I've seen any of those sets I mentioned above. Odd, yet for some reason, examples from these other sets have quietly descended into seclusion. Fortunately, I believe most can still be obtained reasonably (somewhat)when they are made available and HOFers from these sets don't bring quite the frenzy that e107 HOFers do.

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06-24-2005, 09:26 AM

Posted By: pete ullmanI agree there have been hardly any e103's for sale lately BUT...I don't think they're rarer than e97's or e99's or e100's or e107's. I think they're just hiding! Just my opinion! pete in mn

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06-24-2005, 10:21 AM

Posted By: BobI agree, there ARE E103s out there but not many make it to ebay. I have purchased and sold almost the entire set less Wagner and Cobb in the last two years so I know they are there.

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06-24-2005, 11:08 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerSpeaking of caramels, any guess as to how many E90-1 sets exist? There is no complete E90-1 registry set.

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06-24-2005, 11:13 AM

Posted By: jay behrensHow about e104-3s? I've seen more e103s since my return to the hobby than these cards. Jay My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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06-24-2005, 11:21 AM

Posted By: leonWith all of the inquiries about E90-1 are you selling a set, or what? Personally, since it's the T206 of caramels, I would think there would be quite a few sets out there. I have seen several sell over the last 7-8 years...sometimes missing it's big 2-4......regards.....

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06-24-2005, 11:24 AM

Posted By: tbobI have the E90-1 set minus Joe Jax and I have a feeling I am not alone.

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06-24-2005, 11:28 AM

Posted By: WesleyI agree with tbob in that those who own the E103s are probably just squirreling them away. A few years ago, there was a collector/auctioneer/forum member who seemed to have quite a large hoard of E103s. As far as E90-1 cards, there are two complete sets on the SGC registry. Sotheby recently auctioned off a complete set as well. I know of a few other collectors with near sets and recall seeing several partial sets in Mastro.

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06-24-2005, 11:35 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerWesley--I just looked at the SGC registry and I see no complete sets. Am I missing something? Leon--I picked up the set from Sotheby's auction and am just trying to learn more about it.

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06-24-2005, 11:38 AM

Posted By: WesleyI thought Paul and Alan were done. A few more cards to go for each of them.

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06-24-2005, 11:42 AM

Posted By: warshawlawWhen I realized that I could never hope to purchase a Jackson.

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06-24-2005, 11:50 AM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockI put together an E-103 set between 1997-2000. It's ungraded, and since there is no monetary incentive to create one, there is no ungraded set registry. Haven't seen too many for sale lately. My set can be veiwed at: <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/PhotoAlbum39.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/PhotoAlbum39.htm</a>

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06-24-2005, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Bob SI'm one card away from completing my e90-1 set......I need Joe Jackson.

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06-24-2005, 12:22 PM

Posted By: Bryan LongI have been trying to get e103 cards for some time with no luck. For a short while sometime back I came across them all the time on Ebay but now that I am really looking for them - they don't come up - go figure. I happen to think too that they are out there but for one reason or another people are now holding onto them instead of selling. Just my luck. I have managed to pick up one HOFer from that set. I need more, so Leon when one want to part with the other Brown card let me know. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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06-24-2005, 10:03 PM

Posted By: bcdon avatar~

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06-25-2005, 11:17 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI'd been eyeing it for some time. Nap Lajoie in atrocious condition, slabbed "authentic" by GAI. A kid must have crayoned a small area of red background--really too obvious to be a doctoring attempt--that kept PSA from slabbing it as a 1 (or so I was told by the dealer). Some creases and some damage to the name finish out the bill, but the image of Nap is pretty good. I think I paid around $240 in combined cash and trade for it.

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06-25-2005, 05:25 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesthere are some veteran collectors that do still cherish these scarcities...... I have the Mathewson , maybe the nicest Cobb, Jennings and Bresnahan. I bought the Cobb from SPorts Cards Plus about 10 -12 yrs ago and it is w/o question a very strong Ex ++, the only objective is that it has about a 1 inch German stamp of a ballplayer on back, which to me does not detract whatsoever and I do say that with an unbiased opinion. Matter of fact , I do think that it is amongst the very best example of any e-103's that I have been very fortunate to come across period ! Iam sure somewhere on a wall or a clothes hamper that BCD is harboring a hoard like the Tango eggs that he has had ! edited to say that they are much scarcer then e97's !!!!

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06-25-2005, 05:42 PM

Posted By: bcdBill ,Marcus and i just had lunch after going to Mark MaCrae's show and guess what I bought from a collector who need some money and was looking to sell his cards! Will post a pic after I reinstall my scanner~

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06-25-2005, 08:52 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesif you tell me you found a nicer Cobb, Im moving in at your place or follow you around ! later

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06-26-2005, 04:16 AM

Posted By: Zach.

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06-26-2005, 08:26 AM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesthey all know now.

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06-26-2005, 09:08 AM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisLEON, If my sales at the Philly Show are any indicator: E-Type cards are "hot" right now; have been for the past year. I usually go to Ft. Washington with an assortment of E-type cards (50 to so). These cards will "fly away" by Friday, or for sure by Saturday Now, I am sure the "beaters" in this lot, I have priced to low. But, I am amazed at what collectors are willing to pay for the cards that are Ex (or better). I keep modifying my prices on these but that hasn't "scared" buyers away. Regarding the E90-1 set. I completed it some years ago, in Ex condition. Joe Jackson was not really the problem for me; Mitchell (Cinc.) was, and still is tough. Unfortunately, I sold it several years ago, when E's were not as hot as they are now. Had I waited till now, I'm sure I could have doubled what I sold it for. And, especially so, if I broke it up.

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06-26-2005, 09:08 AM

Posted By: leonThat is it.....therein lies my conundrum......darned if I do darned if I don't on that issue.....As for E103's these look pretty decent but I wonder why the one is "authentic"? Surely not because of the back damage. That should still get a number, I would imagine? I will always hate the harsh downgrading of cards that are blank backed and have back damage. These E103's are a prime example. Nice cards for the series...regards

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06-26-2005, 10:04 AM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesthere is nothing under the name of the Lord card. Oddly , there is an abundance of McQuillen cards in the Tango eggs(see BCD) and in these e103's,it seems. Maybe 3 of the last 5 of these that I have seen have been of McQuillen. I guess he is either an ugly dude or y'all just plain dont like him. good afternoon Dan

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06-27-2005, 01:53 PM

Posted By: Peter ThomasIf you consider 35 dups averaging a little less than PSA 2 a hoard. I am still holding out hope that I can trade for some upgrades or the 4 that I need for a second set at this year's national. Bryan I will let you know what I am doing when I know, but it will probably be after National.

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06-27-2005, 03:26 PM

Posted By: robert aHi Dan. I know one mcquillan (the same one) has been floating around from board member to board member to ebay back to board member back to ebay, etc. I wish I had it back now of course. Robert

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06-27-2005, 06:10 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesyours was a very nice one, I was going to buy it. Donald Johnson seemed to have had it in his possession as well. Oh well,some must come up somewhere it time. Peter ...I had forgotten that you had all those ,nice hoard !

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06-27-2005, 07:35 PM

Posted By: leonExcept for Peter...... my newest addition, Mr. Brown, with fairly severe back damage..and his bud Bressy. This Brown would grade a 1 .....regards <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1119922404.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1119922426.JPG"> edited to add the word "back"

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06-28-2005, 05:19 AM

Posted By: identify7It seems to me that card availability (on eBay) is cyclical. By that I mean that I often seek a card for months without finding any examples, then three show up in a two week interval. Recently a Board poster provided a database which contains e-card listings on eBay from early 2003 through the first quarter of 2004. An initial assessment of this listing is summarized below. No adjustment for re-listed cards nor frequency of appearance of individual cards has been made to the summary shown. Based on an eBay sampling of e90-e107 cards listed for sale between early ’03 and ’04, comprizing almost 3000 offerings, the most common e-card is the e90-1, by a wide margin. Many sets represent less than five percent of the total e-cards available. Including: e99 + e100 – the rarest e90-2, e104 & e107 – each less than 1% of the total e-cards e90-3, e105 & e106 – just over 1% during the tabulated period e94, e97 & e103 – infrequently seen e98 + e102 e96 + e101 – comprising about 6% each of the total e-cards e93 – 7.1% e91 – 8.1% e95 – 9.7% e92 – 12.3% - less than half the population of the e90-1 Of course this small sampling can result in skewed values, plus it was conducted almost a year and a half ago. Therefore, what existed then may not reflect current card availability. But I offer this for your comment.

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06-28-2005, 06:40 AM

Posted By: leonI will go back to my original assessment, Gil. I am not arguing the numbers provided. I am sure they have more merit than my "guesstimates" from the seat of my pants (or wallet in this case). I have seen less E103's than any of the mentioned E series...including E99 and E100..... Yes, the E99 and E100 are scarce/rare but that's just my gut feeling.....regards

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06-28-2005, 07:48 AM

Posted By: identify7Leon, I generally put the most credibility on data and opinions generated from seat-of-the-pants estimates, because they represent assessments by persons who are genuinely in the thick of things, or at least watching the battle. My intent was simply to provide an additional data point. Most of us have little to go by regarding e-cards, although we note increased focus on these issues. Inferring anything from slab population reports alone results in questionable validity in any conclusion. I do not think that a one year (possibly complete, possibly not) sales documentation represents anything other than, at best, conditions which existed 18 months ago.

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06-28-2005, 10:38 AM

Posted By: robert aActually Gil. I believe that's really good information and pretty accurate. I think it came from Greg and I look at it all the time. Only thing that really skews the data is the fact that many of the examples are repeated over and over again. Still a fun little packet of ebay info. on e cards. Robert

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06-28-2005, 11:45 AM

Posted By: jay behrensJust curious as to why you serperated out e90s but lumoped togehter the e104 sets. There is a huge disparity in availability between e104-3s and type 1 & 2. Type 3s being much rarer Jay My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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06-28-2005, 11:52 AM

Posted By: robert aJay. I think the list shows that e104.3 are the most scarce. I'm pretty sure there's only 3 on there. (one was uncat.)

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06-29-2005, 12:07 AM

Posted By: PaulI think there is no doubt that E107s are tougher than E103s, even if extraordinary prices have brought a few E107s out of hiding lately. One thing to keep in mind is that the E107 set is a MUCH larger set than E103 (or most other E sets) with about 150 cards in the set. So, even if the average E107 was about 10 times as scarce as the average E103, you would still expect to see an E107 for sale as often as an E103.

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06-29-2005, 06:57 AM

Posted By: leonHey Paul, As my very first post said, not a particular card but in general, referring to scarcity. So you agree with me that E103's are scarcer than E107's "in general". I am pretty sure if we take into account Peter's stash of them, and all other board members E103's, they would be far fewer, in number, than E107's owned by board members. Heck, I would almost bet Scott B has more E107's than almost all of the other board members E103's put together......regards

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06-29-2005, 08:01 PM

Posted By: peteI may not be as "in the thick of things" as a lot of y'all out there but I have been collecting vintage for over 25 years and very active last 5 and I'll be damned if E103's are rarer than E107's!!!! Not that I have either of the two!?!? No "F"in way! pete in mn

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06-29-2005, 08:41 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsI have had over a dozen in my poss. the past year (mostly from trades or good deals, as I don't really like them and was not "after" them) - sold or traded them all. I have to agree that the E104-3's are extremely rare from what I have seen (or not seen I believe would be more appropriate).

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06-29-2005, 09:04 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesI was trying to see if there were any statements regarding one saying that e103's were scarcer than e107's.... now I though that e103's are tougher then e97's.....Ihave had over 20 e97's this past 6 mos and only 1 e103 of late. I usually do not like blank backs but find the lettering very unique, so I really like em !

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06-29-2005, 09:07 PM

Posted By: petei've never liked those 103's and have passed on hundreds of opportunities to add one to my type collection over the years. Now I'm regretful! pete in mn

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06-29-2005, 09:54 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesyou will get your chances again ,have a player that you would like to get first? Dan

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06-29-2005, 10:12 PM

Posted By: peteas I say...I'm a type collector. I'm partial to ny amer players and obviously hof'ers but I'm not looking to spend alot. remember...I don't like them! thanks dan! pete in mn

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06-29-2005, 10:47 PM

Posted By: PaulLeon, I don't know enough to have a really informed opinion on whether there are more total E107s in the world than E103s. If I had to guess, I'd say there are more E103s. Until the last several months, when high prices chased a few E107s out of the woodwork, I'm sure I had seen many times more E103s offered for sale than E107s. I'd be curious to know what people think is the more relevant measure of scarcity. I've always felt that if there are only an average of about 5-10 known examples of each card in a set, the set is damn rare, even if there are a hundred or several hundred different cards in the set. Old Judge Cabinets, Gypsy Queens, and E107s are examples of this. In my mind, these sets should be regarded as more scarce than a very small set with perhaps 50 of each card known. That's just the way I look at it. Otherwise, sets like the Rice Stix sets would be considered among the rarest of all sets. I'm sure others have the opposite view.

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06-29-2005, 11:15 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesthe Tenney is a great looking specimen in the set.

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06-29-2005, 11:21 PM

Posted By: peteoh yea...I'm listenin'. pete in st paul pls keep in mind that momma needs a new pair of shoes!

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06-30-2005, 01:17 AM

Posted By: BCDDAN,YOU MEAN BESCHER= 148 KNOWN*** AND JENNINGS 127 KNOWN*** ON THE TANGO BRAND EGGS* there is nothing under the name of the Lord card. Oddly , there is an abundance of McQuillen cards in the Tango eggs(see BCD) and in these e103's,it seems. Maybe 3 of the last 5 of these that I have seen have been of McQuillen. I guess he is either an ugly dude or y'all just plain dont like him. good afternoon Dan

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06-30-2005, 05:57 AM

Posted By: identify7Paul: to me a relative measure of scarcity is the frequency that a card comes up for sale, independent of how many exist.

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07-01-2005, 07:44 AM

Posted By: brian pThought I would include my views on availability after almost a quarter century as a vintage bb card spectator. Mind you, I am so old school I haven't even broken down the E92 sets into different backs, nor the E104's into different types or separated out E97's color and Black and White, etc. Pete C.'s caramel website listed in the links section has a great listing of his opinion on scarcity of the small E-card sets. Anywho, here is my offering, from most commonly found to near impossible, with breaks indicating a jump in relative scarcity: E90-1 E92 E95 E93 E91 E96 E98 E101 E106 E94 E102 E97 E90-2 E90-3 E103 E104 E99 E100 E107 E105--believe it or not, I think Mello-Mints are the toughest to come across Brian (actually, I am the toughest to come by since I am at the bottom of this list)

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07-01-2005, 10:42 AM

Posted By: WesleyMello-mints are tough to call. Some players are really difficult while a small find a few years ago has made certain players very easy. As a result of this find the overall population of E105s increased dramatically but mainly with respect to just a handful of players. There seems to be a lot of highgrade examples of Knight, Bescher and Young.

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07-01-2005, 10:42 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI would put Mello-Mints as the easiest of that group. Although I've seen more e99 and e100s over the past few years than e105s. The was a big find of e105s in the late 80s. The bulk of this find were Lajoie and Young cards, thus reason you see these 2 cards most often. Jay My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.