Lelands/Clemente family problems [Archive]

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06-05-2005, 08:50 AM

Posted By: john/z28jd Slightly off-topic but i know theres both Clemente fans and Leland fans here,and thought it was an interesting read Report: Clemente family upset with memorabilia auction June 5, 2005 NEW YORK (AP) -- Roberto Clemente's family is upset that pieces of the plane he died in are being auctioned off, according to The New York Times. Lelands auction house is selling a light metal piece of the airplane, measuring 19 by 14 inches at its largest point, the paper reported on its Web site Saturday night. That section has a minimum auction price of $1,500. A gray steel propeller, 14 by 79 inches, has a minimum price of $1,000. The high bid for the first piece is $1,650 and the high for the second is $1,210. The auction, which includes 28 Clemente-related items, is to end June 24. Clemente died on Dec. 31, 1972, when the DC-7 he was on during a relief mission crashed after takeoff from San Juan, Puerto Rico. The plane was headed to Nicaragua with supplies for earthquake victims. ``It's disgusting,'' Roberto Clemente Jr. was quoted as saying. ``It's a shame that something so sacred to my family would go on the market like this. It's ridiculous. It has nothing to do with baseball. He's a human being. He lost his life. There's nothing funny about that.'' The Clemente family will talk about whether they should take legal actions. Joshua Leland Evans, the chairman and founder of the auction house, did not return messages from the paper seeking comment.

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06-05-2005, 08:54 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI heard the story on the radio too and I was wondering just how pieces of the plane became available? Where have they been for the last 32 years? That may be the crux of the issue.

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06-05-2005, 09:05 AM

Posted By: dennisi would think lelands would be above this type of thing.i find it disgraceful and morbid.no one should bid but i'm sure some will. SAD!

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06-05-2005, 09:11 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaTy Cobb's skull? Babe Ruth's femur? I will not bid on anything in the Leland's auction if they include wreckage from Clemente's plane. Dan

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06-05-2005, 09:13 AM

Posted By: leonThat auction houses, in good conscience, would at least contact the family and get their feelings on the subject before doing this....I know money is money....but humanity is humanity.....Clemente died while doing charity work and was obviously a great human being....it would seem that would weigh in for something....regards edited for spelling

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06-05-2005, 09:17 AM

Posted By: David VarghaTed Williams' head? DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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06-05-2005, 09:30 AM

Posted By: WPHollyfields ear?

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06-05-2005, 09:30 AM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI just looked at Leland's website and both pieces have already gotten bids. Some people are morbid.

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06-05-2005, 09:55 AM

Posted By: AnsonShame on Lelands but, even more so, shame on the goofus who's going to spend $1500+ on a piece of the plane. Michael Jackson's nose?

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06-05-2005, 10:30 AM

Posted By: MarkCapitalism.....Just GRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!

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06-05-2005, 10:44 AM

Posted By: DJTalk about a Group overreacting. Sure it's a tad on the distasteful side but welcome to the 21st Century. We live in a society where anything can be purchased. Last week a dinner fork that Derek Jeter used sold for $107. Neil Armstrong's barber is selling his hair. You can purchase swatches with blood stains from Lincoln's assisination. Thurman Munson's airplane parts have been for sale. Britney Spears' chewing gum that she chucked at a someone is always on sale. What about swatches from the Hindenburg. Or pieces from the Buddy Holly plane. As sick as it is, it's also a part of history...baseball history. DJ

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06-05-2005, 10:51 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanCapitalism it may be, but Lelands should have at least informed the family and gotten feedback first. It's not like this is a million dollar item...for such a small piece of change wouldn't some sensitivity be in order?

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06-05-2005, 10:55 AM

Posted By: AnsonOverreacting? Hardly. I think it just illustrates how sick and twisted, not to mention money-driven, our society has gotten. The fact that you consider it overreacting leads me to believe that we've become so desensitized that it doesn't appear to be a big deal. Consider your own father dying in a car and some doofus trying to sell the pants he was wearing at the time of the crash. Just my opinon

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06-05-2005, 11:03 AM

Posted By: AndrewPublic Outcry: Clemente plane fragment, yes. Kennedy November 22, 1963 items, maybe. Artifacts from Lincoln assissination or other popular pre-1900 figureheads, no. “A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

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06-05-2005, 11:12 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerJust my personal view, but I think that dealing in material like this is classless.

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06-05-2005, 11:23 AM

Posted By: DJAnson, You are probably right. As a person who watches 'pop culture memorabilia real close, I have become used to this to a certain degree. I remember reading about a passerbyer scooping up pieces of glass from Princess Diana's mangled automobile and selling the bits. I can tell you that I'm easily offended but this doesn't bother me much. I'd be bothered if it was Ted Williams' head or if it was bone fragments from Clemente or something of that nature. To me, it's what the piece represents in a historical sense, the end of ONE life (where there others on that plane?) and is it of poor taste? Yes, I'm not interested. So we should wait until all of Clemente's relatives pass away before putting this up for auction as to not offend them? To me, it's a 'sick piece of sports history' that some person will show up in his collection to friends as to say: "Hey Bob, What Is That Hunk Of Plane There?" and Bob will happily tell the story in a proud fashion. The beauty of the human being is the opinion and I seem to be alone on this island. DJ

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06-05-2005, 11:57 AM

Posted By: qualitycards.comDon't know whats worse, Lelands offering this to the public or someone actually bidding on it! We have all shown off items from our collections be it autographs, vintage cards or memorabilia. But a piece of a plane that once held Clemente before he died, thats horrible! I guess the adage will apply, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Maybe so, But I won't bid on any of their stuff...jay

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06-05-2005, 12:01 PM

Posted By: barrysloateOur society has become so obsessed with "owning a piece of history" that the boundaries of what really is a piece of history has been stretched to the limit. Not every fragment of our past has historical significance: I think we agree that Ted Williams' uniform or game used bat does, but that his frozen head doesn't. But if that mummified noggin' of his hit the auction block, there's no doubt that a shameless stream of bidders would get in line for it. It has become a national obsession- and we wonder why the rest of the civilized world hates us and looks at us with such contempt.

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06-05-2005, 12:14 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaOne only has to look back at ebay on Sept 12, 2001 to see how low a person can go. To Ebay's credit they quickly pulled any auction having to do with the tragedies of 9/11. There was a person in Texas who tried to ebay a piece of the space shuttle....they got a knock on their front door from the FBI.

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06-05-2005, 01:21 PM

Posted By: tbobI remember watching ESPN recently and seeing Josh Evan's smiling countenance talking about Ty Cobb's dentures. If they had a better provenance he would have bought them. I fully expect to see the bath tub that Jim Morrison died in coming up soon on Leland's memorabilia auction.

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06-05-2005, 01:48 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI think that bathtub is still in Paris. Will have to work something out with the concierge.

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06-05-2005, 02:17 PM

Posted By: Juliethe death of a public figure should NOT be auctioned, sold, or otherwize used for prrofit. Other stuff, like Elvis' hair, just seem silly to me.Except the other day when i heard it was a dentist who bought Cobb's dentures, and had them displayed in his office, I thought it was sort of neat...dunno why. relevancy, I guess.

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06-05-2005, 02:50 PM

Posted By: martin dalziel This is Lelands folks, what do you expect. At the first National I attended in Atlanta, Josh Evans response to a Federal League silver brush that I had was "Get that esoteric bull**** outta here. We only deal in real memorabilia, not crap like that". That comment has saved me thousands over the years. I've never seen a need to share my monies with a company headed by such a classless blowhard. I hope this Clemente story makes big news and that people vote with their wallets. Tasteless and Classless - typical Lelands.

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06-05-2005, 03:25 PM

Posted By: DJI have to chime in because everytime I turn on CNN, I see the story involving John Reznikoff of University Archives being interviewed about the Neil Armstrong hair. I think I've seen it three times today and I wasn't looking for it once. For those of you who don't know the story, the very personal Astronaut's barber sold the hair to 'celebrity hair' collector John Reznikoff for $3,000 and Armstrong's legal team has contacted the parties involved. By no way am I comparing the Clemente piece to Armstrong's hair. The question here, outside of the fact that you all think that Lelands crossed the line by selling this low dollar item with the item itself being of questionable ethics, is Lelands getting 'free' publicity from this and is this good for them? Didn't someone say that there is no such thing as bad publicity? Every news junket has picked up on this story. Just curious. DJ

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06-05-2005, 03:40 PM

Posted By: scgaynorI really don't see the problem with selling this kind of stuff. This is no different than buying a piece of Lincoln's bed sheets, a piece of coal from the Titanic or a gold coin from the Atocha. It is a relic that relates to a legitimate historical event, even if that event ended in tragedy. I doubt the bidders want to buy it so they can spit on it everyday. They want it because it relates to a person that they admire and they want a unique piece that relates to their existance. As far as asking the family for their opinion, I can tell you from experience that it is rare for a family to give an item their blessing unless they are getting a cut of the proceeds. Scott

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06-05-2005, 03:44 PM

Posted By: barrysloateGood or bad publicity is not the issue. The children of Roberto Clemente lost their father tragically. If it hurts them to see these pieces sold, it should end right there. Leland's doesn't need the commission; they are quite successful. They should simply respect the family's wishes. I know Josh reads this forum; I assume he will have something to say on this matter. Scott, your message came up while I was typing mine, so I have to disagree with you. I know how families with famous ancestors like to capitalize on their fame, but I think this situation is different. There are no survivors of the Titanic; all Clemente's children and his wife are still alive. Big, big, difference!

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06-05-2005, 03:59 PM

Posted By: scgaynorBarry, I understand your point, but does it make it more legit if the owner waits another 50 years and then they sell it? If the money were going to a good cause, would it be Ok to sell it? Is the problem that somebody is making money on the sale of these items, or just the sale of the items in general? scott

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06-05-2005, 03:59 PM

Posted By: FrankLelands simply has no class. If Nicole Simpson's slashed remains were available, they'd find a way to list them. Frank

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06-05-2005, 04:02 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaActually I think there are still living survivors of the Titanic. After doing some googling, it appears that there are at least three Titanic survivors still surviving. Dan

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06-05-2005, 04:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateScott- Let me put it another way. My brother was killed in a boating accident when he was fourteen years old. My parents have never really gotten over it, and if someone tried to capitalize by auctioning off the boat, they would be beyond devastated- and I would be none too happy myself. Fifty years from now we will all be dead, so it would be a different matter. I don't have to tell you the pain the Clementes went through when Roberto, Sr. died. Please cut them a little slack and respect their wishes. And that is where I am coming from.

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06-05-2005, 04:16 PM

Posted By: Judge DredThe publicity this issue gets will definitely benefit the auction bottom line if public perception agrees that Leland's in doing the right thing. The final realized prices on the items wont amount to much and Josh is a pretty bright guy. I'm betting that he'll pull the items off the block. It's not like there's a lot of commission to be made. I know this sounds stupid but what kind of proof/provenance is being provided with these items? I'm curious, if the Clemente family didn't say anything about the items up for auction would anyone have criticized the sale of these items?

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06-05-2005, 04:22 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI thought I read that the last survivor of the Titanic died a couple of years ago. She was 107 I think. How old are the survivors? That happened 90 years ago, so I guess they could be under 100. And who is to say they still don't feel the hurt if they were children who lost their parents that night? We don't know.

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06-05-2005, 04:29 PM

Posted By: DJWhile I can't relate to Barry's situation, I can see where he is coming from as far as his distress about the auction. I feel for him. Despite that, this is a piece of history that ranks up there with the Oswald bullet, the tipped over Wild Bill Hickok chair, the shreaded gun that killed Selena and more. Is it sick? Yes. Is Lelands doing something wrong offering this? I still don't think so and that's simply one person's opinion. I like Josh and he has never done anything to me. He has always been fair with me. Maybe I'm on my own Island on that one as well. Here's from 1999: An Internet auction of pieces of a plane that crashed in 1979 and killed New York Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was stopped when his widow complained. ``How can people do this? This is so vulgar and disgusting. I guess there's a price on anything in life,'' said Diana Munson. Fragments of the wreckage were offered through eBay, an online auction service. Five bids had been received ranging from 1 cent to $12.54 for small pieces of metal and 2-inch pieces of nylon harness. DJ Edit to add: I just looked up the Titanic count and all I could find is that according to sites from last year, there were three living members. From 2004 until today...who knows.

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06-05-2005, 05:03 PM

Posted By: Jim HoffmanThis is the lowest of the low. I can't imagine any reputable auction house ever thinking that this is okay to sell. The consigner is profiting off of Clemente's death, and Josh Evans is right there, ready to take his cut of the action. I will never, EVER buy anything from Lelands, and I hope we find out who the consignor is, so they can also be blackballed from ever seeing a cent of my money. There are some great people in this hobby, and there are some real chumps. Joshua Evans is a chump.

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06-05-2005, 05:21 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdWow, i posted this thread about a minute before i went to work and wasnt sure what kind of response it would get.I didnt really think of it at the time of posting but my initial reaction was who would bid on something like that.I think the problem is that people are willing to bid on stuff like that so auction houses will continue to offer them.I applaud auctions that dont sell stuff related to a famous persons death(or famous incident) just to make money off it.Eventho im not a registered bidder with Lelands, im not sure something like this would make me totally blow them off for good,but it will make me think twice about them. In a situation like this i think only relatives would have the moral right to sell something like this and assuming theyre not money hungry,it would probably be very distant relatives who never even met the person in question. If you follow ebay youll notice when ever a baseball player dies,his items are all over ebay,and the prices they get the first few days becomes outrageous.People who sell those items are no better than Lelands in this instance.I remember when Willie Stargell died,the amount of items for him on ebay went from 250-300 at anytime up to 900 the next night

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06-05-2005, 06:37 PM

Posted By: WilliamBarry, your first post in this thread questioned where the piece of the airplance has been for the past 32 years. Atleast twice over the past ten years, a guy from Puerto Rico (I think) had setup at J. Paul show in Pittsburgh and had the piece of the airplane on display. I don't believe it was for sale, just for display. From my understanding he hired divers to recover some of the wreckage. I assume the piece in Lelands auction is the same piece on display at Pittsburgh shows, but who knows if it is the same piece or how many pieces this guy has.

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06-05-2005, 06:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateA plane could shatter into a lot of pieces. Who knows.

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06-05-2005, 07:32 PM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineJosh Evans, PLEASE put the dignity, and class of the late Roberto Clemente, as well as his family before your own capital gain. You already have more millions than you know what to do with. Why benefit and capitalize from such a tragic event? DO THE RIGHT THING, JOSH! Best Regards, Adam J. Moraine

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06-05-2005, 08:11 PM

Posted By: DJI doubt that one pleading response (or even the opinions here) will get Josh to do the right thing. I think the Clemente's will put a stop to the sale and the item will probably be pulled. I like the fact that several of you say you will refuse to ever bid on any more Lelands merchandise. While Lelands isn't really a place to go for 'vintage cards', would that change your tune if suddenly they had a great find cardboard find? Hmmm... DJ

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06-05-2005, 08:17 PM

Posted By: BryanLet's just hope one of the big card manufacturers doesn't buy the pieces and turn them into memorabilia cards.

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06-05-2005, 08:48 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdDJ,Josh Evans reads this board,occasionally posts, and im sure hes read how many people read this board per day, and its alot higher than you would think.He also knows many are not only bidders in Lelands but also potential bidders and while its not a consensus opinion,it is overwhelming in favor of the auction being in poor taste.I wouldnt doubt the power this board has among auction houses that deal in the vintage card/memorabilia area. Altho im a huge Pirates fan and therefore a Clemente fan,i didnt start the thread to make a statement towards Lelands choice to auction this item.It has however turned into that thread and when so many people agree,its happened for a good reason.I believe some sort of statement will be released about this topic soon,but probably not here,at least at first.

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06-05-2005, 08:49 PM

Posted By: Dan Koteleswhat the hell kind of conversation would one say when mentioning the pieces??? hey son do you see this piece of metal?...yes dad...well now see this 55 Topps rookie card of this player here... well he died in a plane crash and this is a piece of metal from the airplane in which he was flying in ! not in the least bit exciting to me. Matter of fact one has way too much money in pursuing these items. They should be taken to an ocean in a secret way and disposed of. good evening -Dan

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06-05-2005, 09:01 PM

Posted By: DJJohn, I'm aware that Josh reads this. I'm also aware that only 30 lots in his latest catalog is dedicated to pre-war vintage cards out of the thousand+ lots. The question is: Why didn't Josh make some kind of 'removal announcement yet' (40+ negative posts here and all the 'bad' Press) and what kind of press did he think he was going to get from this by putting the piece into the catalog? Did he think it was a good idea? Did he think that everyone would embrace this 'amazing find'? He's been in the business long enough. The post above is correct. What do you tell your children with any piece like this? I guess you don't. Do you pass it on to them? Is it their graduation present? You tell your buddies at work (who think it's cool, but question the authenticity) and they tell their wives who think you are an idiot with too much money to waste. DJ

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06-05-2005, 09:27 PM

Posted By: leonDoes Josh know who you are? Just curious as you have more than crossed the line of what the board allows for anonymous posts. Please let me know.....thanks (privately will be ok too)....regards

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06-05-2005, 09:47 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdI cant answer any of those questions for Josh but i can say your post that only 30 items are vintage cards is a little misleading because youre assuming only one category of their auction appeals to this board.Theres probably a 100 items at least that appeal to most collectors here,the 19th century section,the Kid Nichols section,post war cards,individual team categories,Ruth,Gehirg,Dimaggio categories,Trophies,awards etc. Not everyone who reads the board only collects pre-war cards,in fact i would assume a majority collect something else(weve had specific threads in the past that have proven that true),and a large majority of the people who read the board dont even post.

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06-05-2005, 10:09 PM

Posted By: scgaynor"hey son do you see this piece of metal?...yes dad...well now see this 55 Topps rookie card of this player here... well he died in a plane crash and this is a piece of metal from the airplane in which he was flying in !" Actually, Yes, that is pretty much exactly what you would say and the response would often be "Wow." I wonder what the response was when it was on display at Robert Morris. Did people turn away in disgust, or did they want to touch it? "not in the least bit exciting to me" Or me either, but in this day of "reality" television I think that alot of people would find those items alot more facsinating than gruesome. To many people, this kind of stuff is more interesting than a mass produced piece of cardboard with some guys picture on it. I would not want to own it, but I know seveal people who would. Scott

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06-05-2005, 10:31 PM

Posted By: Jay MillerScott-- Just because some idiot would like to own something like this does not mean that it appropriate for inclusion in an auction. By including an item an auction company is making the statement that they believe the item is OK. Even Ebay has deemed some items inappropriate for sale on their site. Are all auctions driven that strongly by the almighty dollar that they lose touch with common decency? Are you saying that you would have no problem placing an item like this in your auction? I'de like to hear for other auction houses as to whether they would run an item like this.

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06-05-2005, 10:39 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaScott, would you auction an item like this off? Even if the family voiced their displeasure to you? A lot of people may think that it is cool to own such an item, but I think the Clemente family should be the final arbiter in this case. Personally I think it's gruesome. Maybe Josh can get a hold of the steering wheel from Dale Earnhardt's car for his next auction.

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06-05-2005, 10:59 PM

Posted By: scgaynorJay, you are assuming that everybody feels the same way that you do about this piece. Other people obviously agree with you, but not everybody. Lelands has a history of selling controversal pieces, they usually have at least one each auction that gets this kind of media coverage. My guess is that if this item showed up one ebay, and the family complained to the right people, then ebay would pull it. They have done similar things in the past, they even did it to me over some player contracts that I was selling. If the item was consigned to me, I would tell the consignor that it was not a good ebay item. I don't have a problem with a Clemente collector adding this to his Clemente memorial, but I have a pretty good idea of what sells well on ebay, and this piece would be nothing but problems. Scott

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06-05-2005, 11:24 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesthese mass produced cards with players pictures on them are why you are driving a Gallardo. Geez, makes us hate our hobby now. Everybody has an a right to their own opinion, but when a family has a reminder of something very tragic thrown in their faces ,where does your compassion for the hearts of them come in ? Scott....after doing my Charlie Chan chit, confusious "says" that you are the consignor,right??? Regardless of how this world has aggressed to where most people cant even sit at the dinner table together....the fat kids are inside watching MTV and playing video games, eatin nem twinkies....causing MLB to go to the Dominican Republic to get players, cause we cant the kids on the ball field anymore and we have boring dads who come home and his topic for the evening is um..."gather round everybody "DADDY" has just bought a chunk of a plane that a famous baseball player died in,"WOW",your kidding , right?....no ,thought you all would enjoy this and wanted to share this with you. Hey dad?....can we play catch with this?...no son, it goes next to the big screen TV for display only, what are you stupid kid????...go to your room and turn on MTV, dont you know art when you see it ? LEAD BY EXAMPLE and not by REALITY TV !

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06-05-2005, 11:30 PM

Posted By: LarryThere are few things that actually create a sense of irratation of this magnitude in our hobby..this is one of them.. There is no way this is sports memorabilia, this is a tragic event that is being glorified by a company that I had tremendous respect for, especially since they are directly across the street from one of my stores...I sincerely hope that Lelands pulls this item from their auction out of respect and integrity, we all must look into our concience and as Barry Sloate stated, we would not want our family tragedies to be sold as historical collectibles...Does anybody really want Ed Delehanty's mangled body for their pre 1910 collection?..I hope not...I very rarely write on this message board, I just respect those that care about humanity and this IS important..Josh..Please pull that listing for the Clemente family...

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06-05-2005, 11:48 PM

Posted By: scgaynorDan, I have no financial interest in this piece at all. I didn't even know that Lelands was selling it until I saw this post. I am simply playing devils advocate and trying to explain that just because some people find these pieces to be evil, does not mean that others will not appreciate them. About 60% of my business is autographs, but I have no interest in having an autographed item in my personal collection. Running an auction is not about selling items that only appeal to the owner of the auction house, it is about offering interesting and unique items to the customers. I was not in any way trying to put down cards either. They are how I got started collecting and the staple of the sports memorabilia hobby / business. The truely rare cards are the items that I still get excited about selling. One of the reasons that I visit this forum is because I like seeing what other people have recently added to their collections. I also agree with your assesment of todays kids. That is why I don't watch Reality TV and I take my son out to play Baseball, Tennis, Frisbee, or something else every nice day after work. Scott

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06-06-2005, 12:07 AM

Posted By: Dan KotelesI really wouldn't have expected anything less of a person then your claim... but I did think in a harmless way that you deserved a small poke shot...sorta a tooth for tooth hit. This is about his family .Their feelings should matter on this dealing. I know you care about the hobby , you have a great service as well ! Dan

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06-06-2005, 01:34 AM

Posted By: JohnIs this morbid? Yes it is. Is this something I would buy? No probably not. Is it wrong to sell hell no. This is no different than many mainstream forms of collecting. I’ll name a few below and you tell me how it’s different or less offensive. Military Collectibles: How many medals are sold every day, many of these very medals were given posthumously. Uniforms how many of these uniforms belonged to loved children who watched as there buddies were mowed down in battle. I myself have a large collection of antique swords. Many of my Scottish claymores weren’t used to carve Thanksgiving turkeys they killed people. Every old gun, sword etc has a morbid past of some sort. Example: The “Enola Gay” is on display at one of the National Air & Space hangars in VA. This very plane killed around 1.4 million people when it delivered the atomic bomb over Hiroshima. Should it not be displayed because it offends Japanese people? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/use.jpg"> Historical Documents & Collectibles: I recently saw a group of correspondences of Adolph Hitler’s on the auction block. Are there no Jew’s alive that remember the holocaust? Should I not own or ever sell my German Tobacco Propaganda cards (below) because I might offend Jews? How many Titanic collectibles are sold? If you found a second copy of a Zapruder film detailing the Kennedy assignation would you not sell it? Al Capone letters must really put you people over the edge huh? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/websize/1930qusper20Germanper20_Hitler_per20Propagandaper2 0Cards.jpg"> Take a look at a few of the items in this Auction. <a href="http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/jp/hi.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/jp/hi.html</a> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/websize/use%202.jpg"> Battle of Little Bighorn Gun (No people died there huh?) Nazi SS Uniform (Should be a big hit at the next bahmitzva I go too) Dutch Schultz’s own handgun (The only non-violent gangster in history I guess) Antiquities: How many devices of torture are on display in the Tower Of London and museum’s around the world. If you stumbled upon a piece of Aztec sacrificial art that was worth millions would you not sell it, because of the innocent people who were sacrificed? How many religious artifacts from the crusades are around and sold everyday? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/use%201.jpg"> I could go on and on. I understand the sensitive nature of the Clemente item. However This is like freedom of speech if you have freedom of speech you have to give racists & idiots the right to talk out as much as we have the right to speak out. You can’t censor things because you don’t like them; unfortunately selling of a piece of a crashed plane is no different than any of the above items being sold or for sale in my mind. But maybe I’m just crazy.

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06-06-2005, 05:03 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJust woke up and missed a good deal of this thread. Not only has Leland's used poor judgment but I have to also say I am disappointed with Scott Gaynor's response. Scott, I've always respected you and I know how hard you have worked to build your terrific business on ebay. But you are just way off base on this one. You said in so many words who is to say what a collector might appreciate, suggesting that if there is someone who might find the pieces of the plane interesting, then that makes it O.K. This discussion is not about the desirability of an artifact; it's about how the Clemente family feels about it. I'm sure there are many people who would like to own a piece of the World Trade Center. Put a piece of that in an auction and see how the 2700 families of the victims feel about it. We are not talking about the Clemente family complaining about the sale of a uniform or a signed contract because they aren't getting their cut. We're talking about a piece of a plane in which Clemente lost his life. There are some things that are taboo and this is one of them. It's all about the family, it's not about the collector.

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06-06-2005, 05:44 AM

Posted By: barrysloateThe Associated Press reports this morning that the Clemente family has decided to take legal actions to prevent the sale of the plane. Roberto Clemente Jr said the family "will not tolerate anyone trying to benefit from my father's passing."

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06-06-2005, 06:34 AM

Posted By: scgaynorBarry, thanks for your comments, it looks like we just have a different opinion. We have had a number of conversations abou the hobby and have pretty much always been on the same page in the past. I think that your opinion based more in emotion and he feelings of the family, and mine is based in the mind of a collector. I think that the response of the Clemente family says it all. First they seem to think that the sale of these items are more of a joke and that they are being sold to get a laugh. The last comment tells me that they are upset that somebody is making money off of the items. I think that is what most people are upset about. Not the sale of the item itself, but that somebody is making money off of the tragedy. I wonder if they would be so upset if somebody just gave the stuff away. The last that I heard, it was illegal to sell piece of the World Trade Center because it was considered part of a crime scene. I don't know if that is still the case though. Scott

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06-06-2005, 06:47 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWell Scott, I guess we agree that we disagree. I can't go any further with this. My guess is the family is hurt a lot more than that. Obviously, we don't know, we can only assume. Let's see how it all unfolds over the next few days.

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06-06-2005, 07:37 AM

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffI've been trying not to post, but finally caved in. I know the consignor (I don't know if he consigned this stuff or sold it directly to Leland's) and was offered these items one time when I was at his house in Puerto Rico. They were literally just lying around his house. Chunk of the Clemente plane here, chunk of the Clemente plane there... He had several different pieces. The stuff in the Leland's auction are not all of the pieces he had in his house. There are a number of hard-to-believe stories about this guy and the things he's done to get his hands on valuable collectibles. If you like the Clemente plane chunks, you might be interested in this: Many people have not heard of Francisco Coimbre, but he and Perucho Cepeda (Orlando's father) are widely considered the greatest Puerto Rican players of the pre-Clemente era. Coimbre lived to be an old man and ultimately died in a fire. For the right price you can also own several burned and melted items from the Coimbre fire. They are currently hanging on this guy's wall. A burnt piece of metal, a melted notary stamp, some damaged buttons, some charred keys. All in a display with a few pictures of Coimbre and even a couple of his cards! I have a picture of it somewhere that I'll try to post later. This would make a great addition to any "How'd They Die?" Puerto Rican baseball collection. Just think, if Ivan Rodriguez dies in a car wreck you might be able to hang a mangled bumper on the wall next to Clemente's propellor and Coimbre's keys. The collecting opportunities are endless as long as players continue to die tragically. Oh, and if you're a Clemente fan but find the plane pieces to be...not within the scope of your collecting, for $20,000 you can own the front door to the house he used to live in. No joke. This guy actually went to Clemente's old house and bought the front door from the people living there. They were not related to Clemente. I'll post some pics of the door if I can find them. -Ryan

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06-06-2005, 08:27 AM

Posted By: hrbakerThis story is getting a lot of play on sports talk radio here in Atlanta this morning. Most of the press is negative.

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06-06-2005, 08:35 AM

Posted By: JohnBarry & Others; I’m not trying to beat you up and I respect your opinions very much. I’m just trying to understand yours and some of the other folks thinking here. “It's all about the family, it's not about the collector.” “There are no survivors of the Titanic; all Clemente's children and his wife are still alive. Big, big, difference” So are you saying that as long as no one is alive to be offended by the items it’s ok to profit from death and morbid curiosity? But its not ok if you going to hurt someone’s feelings in the process. I just see it as either you have a moral issue with profiting from anyone’s misfortune or death or you don’t period. Timing and feelings shouldn’t be a changing factor in your moral beliefs. To me that’s like saying I only steal small things like candy bars and soda’s I would never steal a car. You either have a problem with stealing or you don’t little things or not your still a thief if you steal. Scott brought another good point would the family be up in arms if the piece was donated to Cooperstown. Or are they angry that someone is profiting from their misfortune?

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06-06-2005, 08:56 AM

Posted By: Dan Koteleswhat is so historic about these pieces to be in Cooperstown? I sure hope that the undershorts that Dillinger crapped in when he died arent up for grabs....I guess that there are many different morals of collecting .It certainly may tell of ones proper upbringing!

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06-06-2005, 08:59 AM

Posted By: leonIf the Clemente family were asked about this prior to the sale, and gave their approval, then I wouldn't have as much issue. I would leave it up to them. If the pieces were sold and the monies donated to charity (which Roberto obviously felt strongly about) then maybe that would be ok with them, don't know for sure though. I don't doubt there will be a lot of interest in these items but I have to go back to the Clemente families feelings on the matter.....once that's cleared, and they are ok with it, then so be it.....just my opinion......regards all edited to add- John, yes it is all about the Clemente families feelings, imo....

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06-06-2005, 09:11 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn- You made an interesting point and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, since I think this whole issue falls under the umbrella of what is the ethical thing to do. As far as capitalizing on the death of someone, it's probably never an ethically sound policy. But if you sold an artifact belonging to Attila the Hun, who was a ruthless killer, it's safe to say that something that occurred in the 5th century is less likely to offend than something that occurred in 1972. When Jackie Kennedy passed away she left some confidential information about her past (and President Kennedy's, for that matter) that was to remain a guarded secret until the death of her children. Similarly, until Mark Felt stepped forward last week, the identity of "Deep Throat" would have been unknown until he too died. There is something about waiting for the immediate family to pass that changes the dynamics of an event. Lincoln's assassination was a national tragedy but his children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren have all died, so the issue is a little more tied up in history than say the tragedy of 9/11, which is still an open wound for everyone. Never great to make a buck off of someone else's misery, but I think time is an important factor and now is not the time to sell the Clemente plane with his wife and children still alive. A hundred years from now, still not classy but a different story.

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06-06-2005, 09:40 AM

Posted By: JohnDan; I hope you weren’t taking a shot at my upbringing. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/128.gif"> There is no reason for the pieces to be in Copperstown. My point was a question that Scott brought up. Would the family of Clemente have an issue with the pieces if no profit was being made, and they were donated to a museum of some type? Not to long ago some pieces of James Dean’s Porsche 550 Spyder he died in were sold. To me this is no different. Lets also make one thing clear I’m not saying I agree with or that I find the items even remotely interesting, because I don’t. I just have a more black & white view of this issue. There are hundreds of collecting genres, which many people could find offensive (veterans, holocaust survivors, Native Americans, African Americans etc.) on personal or moral levels. The last I checked the T203 baseball comics weren’t too politically correct. And Leon I understand your point. My point is if we have to take everyone’s feelings into consideration when it comes to historical items of any kind. We wouldn’t be able to display, purchase or learn about many historic events. Its sad sometimes it has to take an ugly face, but if you don’t allow Leland’s to sell this. Then by the same token you shouldn’t allow other major auction houses to sell many of the items I posted above which they do on a routine basis.

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06-06-2005, 09:49 AM

Posted By: JohnBarry; You make a very good point. And for the most part I agree with you on this. It’s funny how society has changed. Today we are more plugged into death and destruction than ever before. But in many ways we are so removed from it as well. Today we say that we have crossed the lines when something like Clemente’s plane parts are up for sale. You brought up Lincoln; during the 19th century it wasn’t uncommon to sell locks of hair of famous people Lincoln included. In fact many people wore hair of a loved one or famous person in a morning broach a type of jewelry, which they publicly displayed with pride. <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=409&item=6183869577&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=409&item=6183869577&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW</a>

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06-06-2005, 09:50 AM

Posted By: leonWe probably feel pretty much the same way on this. ALL I am talking about is the families feelings.....my wife calls me a "soft heart". What can I say? And yes, it might make a difference to them if the proceeds were donated to charity as it would have been Roberto's wishes, most likely. After the family is taken into account I don't have as much issue with this scenario. You know what they say...."funerals are really for the living". In this matter I am only concerned with the family going through anymore pain..regards

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06-06-2005, 09:54 AM

Posted By: JohnLeon; I hear you. You big softie. I know what you mean I’m Scotch/Irish the best party I will ever be thrown will be my funeral to bad I’m not going to be able to enjoy it.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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06-06-2005, 09:58 AM

Posted By: barrysloateYes John, but selling a lock of Lincoln's hair would not have been as offensive as selling the bullet that killed him. After all, he didn't die from a haircut. Pieces from James Dean's car are equally tacky (this September 30th is the fiftieth anniversary of his death, for those who are counting) but Dean had no children and I don't know if any of his immediate family are still alive. Again, each issue has to be looked at independently.

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06-06-2005, 10:06 AM

Posted By: JohnGood point Barry, however Oliver Stone has a new movie coming out which un covers a government cover up that Lincoln did die from a bad haircut. And that Booth was framed.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> Speaking of reality TV. How many police or law enforcement widows are sickened each time they flip pass “Growing Up Gotti” on TV. While she lives in the lap of luxury from dirty crooked money on national TV, while they are trying to survive on a pension or life insurance payout.

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06-06-2005, 10:10 AM

Posted By: Jim HoffmanThis isn't the same as selling a piece of Jackie Kennedy's estate. Those items weren't associated with her death. The Clemente wreckage is unique in that it is a tangible piece of material that is tied directly with his death. I'm not at all opposed to selling Clemente's autographs or game used equipment or even mementos from his life, but this plane wreckage is completely different. The fact that he died prematurely, and on a heroic, humanitarian mission makes these auction lots completely sacred, and they should never be sold. I can't even imagine anything else that could compare to the wrongness of this sale. Even those who sold WTC photos and books, etc. after 9/11, those people weren't selling actual wreckage or office equipment, etc. I suspect the person who brought up Dale Earnhardt's steering wheel probably came the closest in describing the absurdity of the sale. Maybe it might compare to slavery leg-irons or pieces from Nazi concentration camps. Several months ago I noticed an auction with at least one lot of artwork from John Wayne Gacy, the Chicago mass-murderer. I don't remember the auction house, but that lot also left me aghast. Those who trade in this ghoulishness are nothing short of grave robbers, and deserve their names and reputations to be dragged through the mud. Just like the despicable Joshua Evans.

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06-06-2005, 10:16 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJim Hoffman is right on the money. Does anyone see an ethical difference between selling the gun that Booth used to kill Lincoln or selling the gun that Mark David Chapman used to kill John Lennon? With Yoko, Julian, and Sean still alive, isn't there a distinction between the two events?

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06-06-2005, 10:41 AM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineHey Guys (and Julie), 73 posts now, and STILL no response from Josh Evans. How cowardly from someone who is "SUPPOSELY" a "RESPECTED LEADER, AND AUTHORITY" of our great hobby! Be a man, and face the music Josh because YOU have A LOT of explaining to do. Best regards, Adam J. Moraine

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06-06-2005, 10:42 AM

Posted By: JohnYes I see a difference timing that’s all. I brought up the Enola Gay for a reason, not to long ago a group of Japanese wanted to have the plane removed from display and dismantled. They found it morbid and dis-respectful to Japanese people. They found it to bring back to many (rightfully so) horrific memories. So what are we to do wait until all people who were alive and can remember WW2 are dead? Then wait until even more time passes so that direct descendants of those veterans are dead as well, before we display an import piece of history. History is history gentleman good, bad and sometimes even ugly and sickening. How many churches in the world have relics (body parts) of saints or claim to have a piece of the cross. If there really was a piece of the cross would you be as disgusted or would you want to see it? “Those who trade in this ghoulishness are nothing short of grave robbers, and deserve their names and reputations to be dragged through the mud.” Jim give it a few years and what you call grave robbing becomes Archeology. And its still grave robbing no matter how you dice it. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/King_11537.gif"> So you guys are ok with grave robbing, murder weapons, items of historic tragedy just as long as no one gets their feelings hurt or is alive that could be offended.

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06-06-2005, 10:43 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIf the family is pursuing legal action, it may be judicious for him to remain silent.

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06-06-2005, 10:46 AM

Posted By: barrysloateBoy, that King Tut gold mask would sure look good on my mantelpiece. Is it for sale? Truth is, people will continue to capitalize on other's misery as long as there is a buck in it for them. It's up to each and every buyer and seller to make his own moral decision. There's no easy answer to this.

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06-06-2005, 10:57 AM

Posted By: JohnBarry its for sale but I have to honest with you I think its been trimmed.

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06-06-2005, 11:04 AM

Posted By: barrysloateTrimmed or not, it sure is shiny. I might go as high as $750 for it, but that's my best offer.

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06-06-2005, 11:33 AM

Posted By: Jim HoffmanJohn, I appreciate your point of view. I don't have anything to counter the King Tut stuff. I don't feel any reverence toward the Tut relics. Someone else might be disturbed by the trade of those items, but that's not my issue. I CAN see how people might look at the Enola Gay with some strong emotions either way, including how they might be disturbed that the plane is "celebrated". I agree that history is history. But that doesn't mean that every historic fragment needs to be brought to the open market. There are some things in the world that need not have a price tag, or an 18 percent buyers premium. Joshua Evans cannot have a free pass on this. If there was a hotel that knowingly rented space to the KKK or the Aryan Nation, shouldn't they be called on the carpet? If a travel agency was selling travel packages for men to travel to Thailand to have unsavory relations with children, shouldn't they be called on it? Would you buy products from a company that you knew was violating even the most basic pollution standards? Would you buy products that you knew were made by sweatshop employees? I have never met anyone from the Clemente family. I never even saw Clemente play. But the fact that some anonymous person is selling airplane wreckage, with Josh Evans' blessing is wrong.

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06-06-2005, 11:55 AM

Posted By: Peter_SpaethI can't precisely define the line, but I know when something is on the wrong side of it. Particularly now that the family has expressed their revulsion, the item should be pulled, and anyone who has bid on it or is considering bidding on it should examine their conscience.

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06-06-2005, 11:59 AM

Posted By: JohnJim I appreciate your point of view as well. The Tut stuff was not meant to be countered just pointing out how time can change point of views on basically the same thing. Trust me I think the sale of these things is silly too, but no more silly or offensive than a Nazi SS uniform, military Medal of Honor or James Deans crashed car parts. ”If there was a hotel that knowingly rented space to the KKK or the Aryan Nation, shouldn't they be called on the carpet?” No, unfortunately freedom of speech includes idiots and racists too, and even they have a right to crappy hotel food and overpriced drinks. ”If a travel agency was selling travel packages for men to travel to Thailand to have unsavory relations with children, shouldn't they be called on it?” Illegal, and not even in the same league of what we are talking about. ”Would you buy products from a company that you knew was violating even the most basic pollution standards?” No probably not, but again historic items not new manufactured products. ”Would you buy products that you knew were made by sweatshop employees?” I do already (PSA graded cards). (Rimshot)

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06-06-2005, 12:33 PM

Posted By: identify7The current thinking is that it is fashionable to take offense at almost anything. I do not see how purchasing a part of the plane that Clemente died in can be construed as anything other than a tribute to a good man who was called by the Maker while in the process of a chaitable act. It may allow the purchaser to feel a little closer to this goodness. Although I personally would turn down an offer for a free piece of the wreckage, because it seems somehow inappropriate to me, I can understand others feeling differently. But I do not understand Clemente's family feeling negatively regarding this continued recognition.

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06-06-2005, 12:49 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdGil i dont get offended easy but this is obviously people making money off a tragedy that has a recognized name attached to it. Im not offended by it but if someone came to me and asked me if i wanted it for free i wouldnt hesitate to say no and id wonder what was mentally wrong with them to think that i would want it.If the sale was for charity i could understand it but i still wouldnt know who would want it.Ive never heard of someone famous dying and said to myself,i gotta have that jacket they were wearing when they died. I can clearly see how thats offensive to a close family member as well as fans who followed him.Even if the family themselves were selling it,that wouldnt make it morally right and i would think less of them for doing it.Its in very poor taste as are some of the other things John mentioned.Just because theyve been auctioned off in the past doesnt make them right either. How someone could agree with it being historic enough to be collected and agree that its not in poor taste,i dont understand their thinking.

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06-06-2005, 12:55 PM

Posted By: DJLeon, ...crossed the line of what the board allows for anonymous posts. Leon, I don't think I said anything that has crossed the line? Either way, I'll contact you shortly. <a href="http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=139&auction=505" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=139&auction=505</a> $500 and one bid. DJ

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06-06-2005, 12:57 PM

Posted By: Julierepeatedly ran an ad saying "Mrs. Gehrig would have called US." I cringed every time I saw it.

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06-06-2005, 01:39 PM

Posted By: JohnI wonder if we will ever have this discussion in our lifetime? Fictional Network 54 Poster: I cant believe this did you guys see what Leland’s has in their auction check out item #2433 who would want to own such a thing? And look at the bids. #2433 Holy Grail Yes this is it after thousands of yrs of searching it is available, from a private collection of retired Free Mason. The cup is small and has minor wear; this does not take away from the overall appearance of the cup. The cup is PSA graded authentic. A must have for all you religious people. Now’s your chance to obtain arguably the nicest Holy Grail in existence as well as Everlasting Life/Eternity. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/33678%20copy.jpg"> Est. Upon Request.

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06-06-2005, 01:41 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI can understand the Japanese being offended by the Enola Gay on display, but if not for the Enola Gay/Atomic bomb many more Japanese would have been killed in the inevitable invasion that would have taken place than were killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And it's not like the US is showcasing the Enola Gay in downtown Tokyo.

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06-06-2005, 01:51 PM

Posted By: Sean CoeI believe Lelands was the auction house that ran the Mrs. Gehrig ads.

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06-06-2005, 02:16 PM

Posted By: Tom Boblittit would be best to cut up the holy grail and make like 200-250 grail refractor or atomic refractor cards so it could be scattered to the ends of the earth like that $250K Babe Ruth jersey. These would be really hot items.

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06-06-2005, 04:03 PM

Posted By: Scott MRegarding the post about certain groups staying at hotels.....yes they can stay there and I can choose to boycott that hotel. Freedom of expression/speech runs both ways. I have purchased items from this auction house in the past (every now and then), and can say that I will not be purchasing again. Period, irregardless of finds, price, etc. I collect pieces of cardboard and quite simply there are more important things in the world.... Just because someone somewhere might not object to something doesn't mean that the vast majority shouldn't say its not right, and follow through on their words with actions....in this case simply boycott the business in question. Not everything in life is a "gray" area or "up to interpretation".

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06-06-2005, 04:26 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI think some businesses don't realize that not all business is good business. There is a printing company in Lincoln that prints up neo-nazi pamphlets for a local lunatic. I choose to not do business with that printing company. They have every right to accept that business, and I have every right to go elsewhere. I am not saying that this is comparable to what Leland's is doing, but I find it distasteful, and it's obviously hurtful to the Clemente family.

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06-06-2005, 04:31 PM

Posted By: JulieThe KKK planned to march in Skokie, Illinois. They were turned down (by the mayor? The governor? Can't remember). They took whoever it was to court, and with the help of the ACLU, they won (forbidding them, it was decided, would be a violation of their right to freedom of speech). No hoods, no Nazi armbands, no goose-stepping, no KKK flags. The funny thing was, apparently, the KKK didn't know that Skokie was composed largely of Jews. When they found out, even though they had legally won the right to march there, they decided they'd have better luck marching somewhere else, and changed their venue. A movie--probably only a TV movie--was made of the whole incident, with Danny Kaye playing a citizen of Skokie who couldn't make up his mind--he was very good (his last role, I think).

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06-06-2005, 04:39 PM

Posted By: JohnDan; You’re right not all business is good business. But lots of items of the same type of thread are sold by many auction houses, maybe not all baseball related. I think its where you as a person feel comfortable drawing the line (offensive/not offensive). But if items of a historic morbid nature such as the Clemente items touch a nerve with you guys. You may find your list of auction houses your planning to boycott growing much larger than just Leland’s.

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06-07-2005, 02:20 AM

Posted By: ScottMWell, I don't spend tons of time looking at auctions but I must say this is the first auction that has reached this level of bad taste. And even if every auction house were doing it, that doesn't change the fact that its just plain wrong. I'd rather have my conscience than a piece of cardboard.

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06-07-2005, 03:08 PM

Posted By: Tim MayerDan, you did the right thing on that printing job... the bottomline is Josh Evans choose to put the piece in his auction...he made the decision, now he lives with it... i would like to hear his thoughts,,,he was quick to comment on the Joe Di maggio glove,....id like to hear his thinking on this... i couple of years ago, I bought a box of old cards,,In it were some Bulgarian and German cards that had Hitler and other Nazi war figures. I didn't put them on my table because it would offend many people. I knew a customer who collected these type of cards, I saves them for him, and added them into another deal i was working with him. Could I have put them out and made more money, sure! Would I offended people and lost customers in the long run,,definately. I think I made the right choice. I think Leland's choose the money route...great,,,,maybe it won't hurt them in the long run..I personally wouldn't have done it.

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06-07-2005, 04:08 PM

Posted By: John_B_CaliforniaThe memorabilia business is getting horrible publicity from this auction. The story is everywhere (CNN, NY Times, USA Today, MSNBC). Sure, Lelands might make a few bucks on the consignments. But in the long run, these kinds of sales only hurt the image of the industry. Does Lelands really want to be associated with this kind of controversy?

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06-07-2005, 04:26 PM

Posted By: JohnTim; That seems silly to me but too each his own. I don’t think by putting the non-sports cards picturing Nazi’s or Hitler out for sale for that matter would have cost you business. Nazi’s and Hitler for that matter are part of history. If you had a complete Horrors of War set would you hide it behind a curtain? How about T203 baseball comics showing that "A Fowl Bawl" a stereotypical image of a Negro crying after he gets caught stealing chickens. Or how about a N300 Anson a noted racist and outspoken advocator of segregated baseball. I think you are over thinking peoples reaction to such goods. Now if you were goose-stepping around your table in your Nazi uniform working deals on the cards well……………

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06-07-2005, 04:41 PM

Posted By: Tim MayerJohn, I guess I am silly, who knows? I made the choice,,,and the rest is history. I think anything politically incorrect, or that might offend have no place in an auction or card show... I know lots and lots of people disagree, and i am cool with that also... as for the fowl ball cards, i wouldn't put them out either... i had some old trade cards that were obviously very offensive,, like Washington Irving Melon cards and the such...they are just bad news in my opinion..and they were not sold...

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06-07-2005, 04:48 PM

Posted By: Julielisted for $400.

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06-07-2005, 06:05 PM

Posted By: JohnDan; It was me that brought up the fact that Anson was racist. My point was not about Anson but making the point that you made that auction houses selling goods is not an endorsement of death, genocide or any other nasty thing you can think of. They are just selling items of historic value and sometimes that history isn’t pretty. I however respect the opinions of someone who thinks an item is ugly and refuses to do business with the person who is selling it because of their beliefs on the matter. My only question is where do you draw the line, and to point out that auction houses sell other non-baseball related items which are just as un savory. So before they shun Leland’s look at the big picture. I don’t think there whining (as you do) just obviously very passionate about their feelings on the Clemente objects. “For those of you whom keep bringing up the Anson, Cobb, etc were racist topic, there were a lot of people in those days that were racist, there still are, the fact remains that it is an ugly part of society and most, if not all people whom hate, were taught to be that way. It does not make it right, but it is all that they know. Do you have any proof about the Anson and Cobb topics anyway? No, nothing more than hearsay. Let the issue rest.” As far as most people being racist during those days, just because most people were as you say there were many who were not. It is however a historical fact not hearsay that Anson was racist and refused to even be on the field with another black ball player, such as Moses Fleetwood Walker for example. It is also commonly thought that Anson used his power and influence to keep blacks out of the game until 1947.But if your looking for a picture of Anson at a KKK rally I guess I don’t have the proof you need. As for Cobb who I didn't mention pretty sure he wasn’t a fan of blacks, I would say though Cobb was an equal opportunity racist he hated most everyone.

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06-07-2005, 06:35 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaWhile I find the sale of the plane parts distasteful, my major problem with it is that it is insensitive to the Clemente family. The Clemente family has asked that the items be removed and Leland's apparently has decided not to. That is the reason I choose not to do business with Leland's. If you find that childish that's your opinion. I think it's a mature response.

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06-07-2005, 06:46 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn, Whatever your personal feeling is about selling controversial material, isn't it pretty clear after 103 posts that the sale of the Clemente plane is not being well accepted by very large percentage of the collecting hobby and maybe we should just agree that it's time for Leland's to pull the plug?

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06-07-2005, 07:23 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesthe first and foremost reason not to purchase as I and many have mention is for the sake of the family and thier wishes....that SHOULD BE ENOUGH !!!!!! the second reason(on a limb)is that you have to be STUPID to collect plane chunks cause your life is so stinkin boring and you have nothing else better to do. I bet the bidders tea parties suck too!!! better things in life.......

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06-07-2005, 08:46 PM

Posted By: Dan KotelesI was not referring to you in anyway -now that you have responded to me, say I was to come over to your house , you have a plane chunk sitting in the corner of your living room ,I ask "wtf" is that ???...you say that it is a piece of the plane that Clemente crashed in...well, my reply would be "ARE YOU NUTS"??? I DO NOT THINK THAT THIS IS A COLLECTOR PIECE WHATSOEVER! I'll take whatever trashing you want to give ,it is not like my collection will change over this - I will still be a pre war baseball guy ,period ! a selfish purchase nonetheless !

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06-07-2005, 08:55 PM

Posted By: leonNice car you have/want but I agree with Dan K. on this one. You can't remain anonymous in this thread. Please email me privately and let's have a chat....thanks much

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06-07-2005, 08:59 PM

Posted By: JohnTo Barry and Others; I want to make one thing clear before you think I’m endorsing any auctions or material offered in those auctions. I have only pointed out or asked some of the posters who are so against this auction item where they draw the line. 1.)Several people said anyone who makes a profit from items that involve death or destruction are wrong, they went on to say that they would boycott those people. That’s a bold statement. I only pointed out or asked what was different from many other non-baseball related objects that other major auction houses sell. Many of these items fall into the same category and that if they feel that strongly they may be boycotting more than just Leland’s. 2.)Many people said profiting from someone else’s misfortune is wrong and not right. Yet many people replied that they would have no problem getting a box of cards off of someone at half or less of there value, even if they had any kind of knowledge that the seller was selling the items due to misfortune. So turning a buck off that type of misfortune is ok? 3.)My only other point was that just because someone sells something doesn’t mean they endorse in any way the idea or circumstances behind the item. I used the War collectibles as an example. Just because Sotheby’s or another major auction house sells a Nazi uniform doesn’t make them a bunch of goose-stepping neo nazi’s. The same as you selling an historical document you found written by lets say Cap Anson detailing his hatred for blacks, you selling that doesn’t mean you support those beliefs. Once again I’m not supporting Leland’s or lobbying on their behalf, I could careless if Leland’s goes out of business I have no vested personal interest. There are a lot of great people on the board here Barry you included but I think the 100 or so posts here are hardly a representation of the collecting hobby, I also don’t feel the media coverage is either. If the majority of the collecting hobby had no interest or was outraged by this sort of material we wouldn’t be having this conversation because Leland’s & other auction houses would have no market for this material. Barry I hope you don’t think less of me, but I’m very passionate about these kind of things. People have lots of different ways to rationalize things. I have a hang up about hypocrisy, and I have strong feeling that for every person who said it was wrong to sell ghoulish goods, or to profit from misfortune. These same people would sell Al Capone’s Tommy gun if they had it, or by a T206 Wagner off an old lady if she said she needed a $100 bucks. Just a gut feeling.

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06-07-2005, 09:05 PM

Posted By: JohnHey Dan; How do you know about Lincoln WERE you alive, how about Julius Cesar you 2 guys bowling buddies. We know or have history from personal accounts and stories handed down. That’s why its called history, if you have to personally witness things for them to be true, our culture would go back as far as you learning to walk. Remembering and reflecting on history isn’t approving of it, ignoring history because it bothers you is a bad thing History has taught us that many times. Corrected Grammatical Error for Daniel “Grammar Cop” Williams who if a misplaced word bothers him so much is going to be very busy here reviewing the posts from our other members, buy your tickets to better educations now folks!

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06-08-2005, 08:03 PM

Posted By: Daniel William "I am not anonymous" Elsa"How do you know about Lincoln where you alive, how about Julius Cesar you 2 guys bowling buddies. We know or have history from personal accounts and stories handed down. That’s why its called history, if you have to personally witness things for them to be true, our culture would go back as far as you learning to walk." Did you think of that on your own? That is funny. Maybe you missed all that I was saying, yet, I am not in the inner circle of things, so I can understand how it could be confused. Wonka, buy a ticket to reality my friend and go back to school... "how do you know about Lincoln WHERE you alive..." WHERE, do you mean, where Lincoln was alive? What are you trying to say? Do you mean, were alive? That is what I thought. My point about Anson and Cobb are obvious, it happened a long time ago and why continue to bring it up, whether or not they were racist does not really matter in today's World WHERE folks have changed an aweful lot and WHERE things are much different than they WHERE 100 years ago when I was learning to walk WHERE I went to places that I WHERE to go. Regards.

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06-09-2005, 02:26 AM

Posted By: JohnDaniel; I find it very humorous that the only educated response you have to my reply on why you feel the need to ignore history and make things up was to find a typo I made in my many responses to you. The truth is I have quite an extensive education that of which I don’t need to spend my time proving to you. You started this by making 2 statements. The first was that there was no historical evidence proving that Anson was racist, which is false. Second that unless I personally witnessed the events it can’t be proven and should not be believed or discussed. That has to be the stupidest thing I have heard come from a person’s mouth. Do you have any idea how ignorant that sounds? I guess we wouldn’t be able to prove anything to you since you didn’t witness it, so our history would go as far back as your existence huh? What a wonderfully rich culture that would be. Well I’m on my way to buy that ticket. While you’re here correcting the network 54 grammatical mistakes, should I pick you up any historical volumes to read over? I’m reading wonderful account about the American civil war (fictional I’m sure) Since nobody real is alive that saw it happen I’m with you I’m sure it never happened. Oh and once again I never mentioned Cobb you did, feel free to read the posts again so if your upset that I’m dragging Anson’s name thru the mud, its you who keeps mentioning Cobb. I’m done, with you. You want the real reason I had typo, its easy talking to people like yourself lowers my I.Q. And arguing or having an intelligent discussion with people like you. Well it’s like running in the Special Olympics even if I win I’m still retarded for doing it in the first place. Oh and one more thing if you would like to continue this mind numbing conversation, lets do so offline. Use my email above, nice of you to add yours finally. P.S. Before my last line offends anyone, I have nothing against the handicapped so don’t get offended. I know the PC watch is on patrol. Leon my apologies for getting personal with this guy but he threw the glove down. “You’re semi friendly Baseball Card Curmudgeon”

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06-09-2005, 07:28 AM

Posted By: leonI have absolutely no issue with some fighting on the board. I would ask that you put your last name on your posts though. As long as bickering remains fairly civil it spices things up a little. In these types of threads I am going to ask everyone, in the future, to put their first and last names...again, unless you are well known by your handle. Quite honestly I can't keep track of the 830 unique IP addresses we get on average every day. This board is growing. The last few days there have been almost 14,000 page views each day.......I also don't mind people bashing me. Kind of like when I read one of my car mag's I take and the editors put in some editorials criticising the magazine. I can tell you I will not delete criticisms unless they are anonymous. kindest regards....moderator dude (and don't worry folks this board will stay as it's the best vintage baseball card site on the net)

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06-09-2005, 08:04 AM

Posted By: Dan ElsassFirst of all, there are countless flaws with your way of thinking regarding my posts. I continue to stand by the fact that the Clemente items are not something that should have any value placed on them at all and most likely should not have ever been offered for sale. That being said, there are collectors of everything out there (as you showed earlier with the pics of all of the Hitler stuff, etc), so I am not sure where you have heartache with that. Regarding history and what is and is not truth about our history, well, that has been a long time debated issue. In that, history has a way of being written in a manner that may or may not convey the real story. I never stated that Anson was not possibly racist, I was simply making a request for solid proof that he was. It seems to be one of those things that will obviuously never get proven to me, even if it is brought to light with a non-fiction book or document that clearly reports that he was, because it was not written in his true opinion. I suppose that if he had maybe kept a journal of some sort and wrote in it regarding his hatred... etc, then it would make it pretty clear as to whether or not he was. As I wrote previously, hatred via race relations has been a horrible thing for a long time and that is very well documented, so please don't take issue with that one. Regarding your personal attacks about intelligence and all, this is all that I have to say about that... the word STUPIDEST is NOT A WORD. Do me a favor, the next time that you want to try to slam me, at least use real words that do not immediately indicate just where your mind is at. You have now made three attempts to attack me and they were all without merit. I, as you, am done with listening to your blabbering. Leon, thanks for the email, I appreciate your understanding and patience.

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06-09-2005, 08:47 AM

Posted By: JohnClassic I love people who throw down and then get their feelings hurt. Then try to play the victim. In your post deleted by Leon you attacked everyone here who had an opinion different than yours, saying that you were tired of their whining and blabbering. In fact the title of your post was “Enough”. Then you attacked my post telling me to drop the point I made about Anson to another board member that I had no proof of those matters, and implied that I was keeping hate alive by mentioning Anson in the first place, and then to let it go. I simply countered by making a point that all history can be debated but just because there is no hard evidence it doesn’t make it untrue. Then you attacked my typo implying that I was an uneducated moron and should by a “ticket” back to school. A lot of people here make typos I guess it must really bother you to be surrounded by all these stupid people. Now your final attack, and now you play the victim. You got me Dan what can I say I used the slang descriptive of the word “stupid” technically not a word, you’re right my bad. <a href="http://www.answers.com/stupidest&r=67" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.answers.com/stupidest&r=67</a> So cry all you want I’m so sorry you feel I’m picking on you. Just remember you started this and attacked others & me first. To bad your posts aren’t here too read since they were deleted. Once again you have my email, if you would like to continue I suggest we take this offline, where we can bum each other out in private. I’m sure the others would like to get back to talking about baseball cards, as do I. And for the record the characters name is spelled Willy Wonka with a “Y” I would hate to see you make a grammatical error I know how it bothers you so.

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06-09-2005, 09:07 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI know I shouldn't get in the middle of a fight, and I am not the moderator of the board, but as a friendly suggestion maybe you two guys want to take a deep breath and count to ten.

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06-09-2005, 09:15 AM

Posted By: john/z28jdAltho i looked it up and got the same answer from a different source i dont agree with the word "stupidest" not being a word.I mustve heard and used that word combined over a 1000 times.When hundreds of people use a word and no one has ever said to me(or i to them) that its not a word THEN i can safely come to the conclusion that it is a real word,it just might not be "proper" grammar.I would continue using it John because thats the first time ive ever heard that its not a word. In fact i just checked a search of Yahoo for the word stupidest and its used at one point or another in over 1 million pages.Im going out on a limb and saying if a words been used minimum 1 million times on the internet alone then its a real word contrary to the dictionary.I think youre using a dictionary like its a price guide and assuming that its perfect and its word(pardon the pun) is final but we all know price guides are just guides and are sometimes wrong.The makers of the dictionary are obvious trying to tell us whats right and wrong,but i can see thru their elistist BS! I declare that on this day "stupidest" is now officially a word and all non-believers of its credibility as a word will be dealt with severely(Im thinking finger pointing and laughing to start,possible rock throwing from there,better make that pebbles,rocks could hurt) This probably my stupidest post ever,sigh

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06-09-2005, 03:23 PM

Posted By: Howiestupid stupidly stupidest stupider

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06-09-2005, 04:09 PM

Posted By: Bob C "Stupid Is As Stupid Does" Forrest Gump

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06-10-2005, 07:35 AM

Posted By: George AltemoseI remember Roberto Clemente as a player, and I never liked him. He thought of himself as a Puerto Rican first and an American second, if he thought of himself as an American at all. In 1960, when the Pirates won the World Series, their shortstop, Dick Groat, was selected as National League MVP. In a fit of tasteless grousing, Clemente complained that he was discriminated against in the MVP voting because he was Puerto Rican, and rightfully deserved the award. To show his team spirit, he never wore his World Series ring, but wore his All-Star ring instead. What a great guy. Now we have the subject of no-talent sons of famous ballplayers who feel entitled to cash in on the accomplishments their fathers. The most famous recent example, of course, is the lovable John Henry Williams, the son of the Frozen Splinter. Then there was Dale Berra, son of Yogi. Yogi would only do autograph shows if the show included Dale. Now, I will admit that I have not followed the career of Junior Clemente. But I will be very surprised if he has not spent his life in Puerto Rico taking full advantage of the name bequeathed to him by his famous father. If I am being unfair, and that can be shown, I will apologize. But until that time, I remain unsympathetic to the whining of spoiled sons, who are likely to be unhappy only because someone else is feeding at their trough. So if people want to take money from their Beanie Baby budgets and spend it on buying used parts of Roberto Clemente’s airplane from Joshua Evans, I say "good luck" to all of them. And if Junior Clemente feels left out, tough noogies.

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06-10-2005, 02:34 PM

Posted By: Jim HoffmanRoberto Junior recently started doing a weekend radio show on WFAN in New York called "The Latin Beat". He had also done some baseball broadcasting for ESPN in recent years. And whether Roberto Jr. is deemed successful or not in your eyes, George, he did lose his father at a young age in an airplane crash. I'll be the first to say that he's probably milked his family name for a fair amount of his success, but the same could be said for John Kennedy Jr, and George W. Bush. My objections to the auction lots really don't have much to do with the Clemente family's objections. They have to do with my own objections. Clemente Sr. died a hero's death, and some dirtbag went fishing for his scraps, to sell at a profit. I don't have words to describe the disgust I feel toward him. And right there beside him is Joshua Evans, the slime of the hobby. If you're not offended by the Clemente wreckage, how about the Scott Peterson signed business card that Joshua Evans is selling? How much more obscene does it have to get before you'll steer clear of this creep? And how many consignors even want to be associated with someone like that? As a buyer, my money will never go to Joshua Evans, so even if your conscience doesn't steer you away from him, consignors, let your wallets understand that I'll gladly buy from another auctioneer.

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06-10-2005, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Daniel BrettaScott Peterson's business card??? Geez....talk about profiteering from misery.

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06-10-2005, 05:36 PM

Posted By: Jim HoffmanFor the record, earlier this week, poster DJ noted that the Lelands auction was including the Scott Peterson business card. I was unaware of it until he posted it on this thread.

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06-10-2005, 06:29 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGeorge, your post suggests that Clemente was a selfish, me-first guy. Err, is the irony completely lost on you that he died bringing relief supplies to victims of a natural disaster -- that did not take place in his beloved Puerto Rico? Can you imagine Barry Bonds doing that? Or Ty Cobb? Or George W. Bush? Clemente may have been prickly but he hardly deserves to be labeled a selfish bastard.

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06-17-2005, 06:07 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI read today in the NY Times that Leland's was removing the Clemente plane parts because of the outrage of it's clientele. Considering the bashing Leland's took previously, perhaps some kudos could be offered here.

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06-17-2005, 06:53 AM

Posted By: leonI also got a personal email, a few days ago from Josh, stating that something was going to happen. He also stated I am not objective when I told him the only issue I had was with the families feelings not being taken into account. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I don't want to sign up for the NY Times paper but the title of the article is: Plane Parts Removed From Auction By RICHARD SANDOMIR Published: June 17, 2005 Leland's, the sports auction house that was selling parts from the DC-7 that Roberto Clemente died in 32 years ago, agreed to remove the items and donate one of them. regards......

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06-17-2005, 01:00 PM

Posted By: Dan BrettaI got a personal email from him as well where he stated that he didn't know me and that my opinion carries no weight with him because I have not done business with him in the past. Nevermind the fact that I have had email conversations with him in the past and that he said he would send me past copies of his auction catalogs for the cost of shipping for which he never got back to me on. So he'll have to excuse me for thinking that his word means nothing.

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06-17-2005, 01:06 PM

Posted By: barrysloateWhat is the connection between being a customer and being able to express a valid opinion? Can't non-customers be intelligent too?

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06-17-2005, 01:10 PM

Posted By: Julieanswer the announcement...and I have oft told the story about the Cleveland anonymous Joe Jackson I had to bid on as if it were a White Sox Brace photo, because Leland's said so...and yesterday, I got my Leland's catalogues FedEx, HAD TO SIGN FOR... I don't expect any more from (even the most prestigeous) auction houses except that they sell what they choose at the highest price possible...it's the nature of the beast.

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06-17-2005, 01:38 PM

Posted By: J LevineI understand that Leland's is a big auction house and honestly I never bid in one of their auctions but are/were these items on consignment? I think I would be horrified to find out that Leland's bought these items first from someone and then tried to sell them. It does make me ill to see the plane parts, and the Peterson business card is truly sick. I tend to stay away from this stuff but human nature tends to gravitate towards it. I live in Los Angeles and people often buy property here for odd reasons including the Sharon Tate/Manson house, Houdini's house, and the Simpson's condo. In history, people have often profited from misery (anyone wanna buy a piece of the true cross?). I also wonder (just wonder--no proof)... the timing of this auction. After watching REA and Mastro seem to make huge profits in their last few auctions and Leland's seeming to fall behind it seems sort of suspicious (to my cynical mind) that they would do this...let the parts sit for weeks (when the family wanted them pulled before the auction started) until things start to die down and then suddenly "see the light" and pull the parts and make a charitable donation. I know I am jaded lately but sheesh... Joshua

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06-17-2005, 06:23 PM

Posted By: Jim HoffmanThere seems to be a tiny glimmer of humanity coming from the otherwise blackhearted Joshua Evans after seeing his announcement to pull the Clemente auction items. I'll take him for his word in the NYTimes article that he was pulling the pieces because of some outcry from his customers. I'm still disgusted by the inclusion of the Scott Peterson business card and hope that the same customers influence his judgment on pulling that lot. Fittingly, as I write this, the current high bid on that lot is $666. I'm stunned by the number of people in this thread who have a history with Evans where he came off as being a jerk. I don't understand the benefit in conducting business that way. When it comes to discretionary buying, it's so much easier to spend money with people you like.

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06-17-2005, 08:27 PM

Posted By: Joshua Leland EvansLeon I assumed our private correspondence was just that but now I know for the future You have also perhaps unknowingly misinterpreted the thoughts that I expressed to you In my first email I merely expressed a problem I had with personal attacks on the board I will fight for anyone’s right to their opinion so say what you want about the issue or my firm but personal attacks and denigrations should be off limits according to the rules of the Forum Yes I’m a big sensitive lug After you failed to understand this point (you seemed to just ignore it) I thought it was wrong and it looked bad that a moderator was making his own subjective attack when I thought a moderator should have some objectivity Maybe that is not the way Forums work but then pick a better word than “moderator” This was and is merely a criticism not a condemnation Overall, I love this Forum (sometimes I hate it yes) but I think you do a great job most of the time and this serves a valuable purpose that benefits all of us ion the long run As for the Clemente situation we are pleased to be donating the plane (at our cost) to the Sports Museum in San Juan We do want to apologize foremost to the Clemente Family with whom we have discussed this with and to the people of our industry who were hurt or offended by it It is you the hobby that keeps us going This situation has showed us many things Number one it showed us that this was over the line The “line” is that of good taste and what is considered to be proper Whether or not you like us, or believe in what we did I still think it is important to find and define what and where that line is Also, we will continue to straddle that line in our sales as to what we feel is historically significant To be frank though, I still have questions and some ambivalence That line is a narrow one in that it is okay for the Munson Family to sell Thurman's pilot’s license yet not okay for someone else to profit on it I guess it has to have the family’s blessing It is also okay to display and charge admission to see a piece of the plane that Otis Redding died in at the Rock ‘N Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland We differ on whether it is okay to bring up pieces of the Titanic Much of the autograph business is based on who is dead and who is living (morbid?) But that is what makes the world go round As for anyone that thinks we did this for the money that is absurd You guys know the level of business we do and how little a $5,000 or a $10,000 consignment means in comparison to the $5 million plus auction we are running as we speak (sorry for the plug) I turned down the record album that Mark Chapman had signed by John Lennon before he shot him That was an easy decision, but compare the commissions if you think I am a cold heartless Fagin The commissions would have been tens of thousands of dollars I put the pieces in the auction based on a vision, my vision, Mike Heffner’s vision We want an auction that is #1 authentic (and we have the cleanest auction in the hobby) and #2 interesting We look for historical significance, aesthetics and yes dollars (you have to stay in business) That is why there has always been a memorabilia focus (now changing to cards as well) where things are more unusual, more aesthetic An auction should be a beautiful tapestry woven from that vision So you think my vision sucks? Well that may be true but that’s why they call it Lelands and not something else Now I am going to get a ton more of grief for this post Try to stay constructive and use words that have at least one syllable And Leon, please do not publish my home phone number And thank you for listening Respectfully, Josh Evans

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06-17-2005, 09:04 PM

Posted By: Frank Evanov "I put the pieces in the auction based on a vision, my vision, Mike Heffner’s vision We want an auction that is #1 authentic (and we have the cleanest auction in the hobby) and #2 interesting We look for historical significance, aesthetics and yes dollars (you have to stay in business)" What a line! Does this guy think we're stupid. I don't like having my son pick up the Leland Catalog and finding lot #265 "Early Porno Postcards". These are explicit XXX. How about lot #246...an actual shrunken head. Yeah, that's real "aesthetics". Frank

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06-17-2005, 09:25 PM

Posted By: JohnYeah I agree we should censor everything that anyone could find offensive. Lets have a good old-fashioned book burning while were at it. There are countless museums around the world that display and sell items like the current items that Leland’s is selling. Leland’s obviously caters too a large clientele that have collecting interests beyond sports cards & memorabilia (you mean people collect other stuff? WOW!). Just because a guy is selling some early erotic postcards & a shrunken head, doesn’t make him a smut peddling witch doctor give the guy a break. Once again if this kind-of-stuff offends you. Get your picket signs and torches ready you’ve got bigger fish to fry compared to Leland’s.

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06-17-2005, 09:40 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackI suspect Lelands was taken aback by the reaction, in part because similar memorabilia has been auctioned by others and no one complained. As just one example, MastroNet sold the watch Knute Rockne wore when his plane crashed and I don't recall anyone complaining or even bringing it up (We all get the catalogs so I'm sure many here and in other forums saw the lot). There's no question Lelands offers some wild stuff, but I would have no interest in their catalogs if all they contained was UDA baseballs and Juan Lebron basketball cards.

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06-17-2005, 10:11 PM

Posted By: Dan Cariseo What's the real point of having this thread continue really? There were a lot of "immature" and one-sided statements on this thread and all you're going to get is an encore presentation as they attack Josh's retort and statement. There is Pro-Choice/Pro-Life, Democrat/Republican, Religeon Yes/No and while I think everyone here is "against" the actions of Nazi Germany, the debate over the memorabilia will be divided into two sides. Should you be able to collect Nazi Ceramics and what do you think of that person who bought a signed Adolf Hitler book several days ago for $40,000? It's okay for Thurman Munson's widow to sell her late husband's pilot license but if Leland's (or anyone) was selling it, that would simply be sick, right? So we should wait for ALL the relatives of any historical tragedy to pass away before it's okay, or are there rules that only the person with "the opinion" knows about? Didn't an auction company (Mastro?) just sell Knute Rockne's "plane crash" watch and where was his sons and/or daughters? Aren't there Kennedy items out there and I'm pretty sure I can buy a copy of the film where the back of Jack's head explodes in slow motion as we look at it frame by frame by frame by frame. I have no interest whatsoever in purchasing the item in this debate but I also don't really see all that much of a problem in them selling it. I can also see the side of the Clemente family and I can see the side of the person opposed to the sale. I also see that it's a historical piece of baseball history that ended the life of one of the truly great baseball players toward the end of his playing career doing an amazing thing for people. If Sotheby's had an auction of "swollen heads" or Exotica or anything like that, no one would think anything less of it. But because these 'unique' items mingle with one's personal interests is no reason to punish them. Their catalogs are "quite diverse" and I consider Josh a friend and I do appreciate the Lelands vision. Regards, Dan Cariseo

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06-18-2005, 05:23 AM

Posted By: barrysloateWe can debate this point ad nauseam but in the end Joshua did the right thing. We can be cynical about what his motivation may have been but he donated the parts to a museum at his cost and at this point you can't ask him to do any more. What's done is done. Time for everyone to move on.

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06-18-2005, 06:30 AM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI also applaud Josh for two reasons: first, he took the item out of his auction when he didn't have to once he learned of the outcry by the Clemente family and the public. It is clear that the inclusion of the items were not designed to directly make Leland's any real money based on their relatively low value. Second, Josh came on here and gave his side of the story even after getting ripped here pretty good. Keep in mind that in any business, one's detractors, even if they are in the great minority, are usually louder than one's proponents. That Josh listened to his clientele does suggest the opposite of what most of the complaints here centered on -- that he doesn't give a damn about what his customers think. I'm not sure if I've bought anything from Leland's as one past auction tends to fade into another in my rapidly aging mind; however, my position on the auction houses is if you see something in their catalogues that you like, bid on it and buy it. If they send it to you after you pay, they've done their jobs. For what it's worth, Leland's traditionally does have great stuff in their catalogues. End of story.