When you get a fake from E-Bay [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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05-31-2005, 10:37 AM

Posted By: ChadI can't paste the link as the item is too old--it took forever to get the card--and I can only access the item description through Paypal. Looking at it now, tho, it's one of those auctions where the card "may be real or a reprint" and I just missed it. I used to think my girlfriend made fun of me for buying baseball cards, now I can see she makes fun of me because I have no brain. In happier news, to follow up on the thread about TobeeeCat. I got my McGraw T206 in the mail and not only did I get the card incredibly fast, but it's real and as advertised. I'd do business with him again. Thanks for jumping in to help out. The information will be useful if I ever do get burned without the aid of my own stupidity. --Chad

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05-31-2005, 10:41 AM

Posted By: andy beckerthere is insurance...but with a $25 deductable.....anything under $25 leaves the buyer SOL

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05-31-2005, 11:11 AM

Posted By: Judge DredNot only is the deductible $25, you must file a claim within a certain time period of the end of the auction. The sad part about this is that ebay will continually ask you to resolve this with the seller, if you correspond with the seller you lose time especially if the seller is slow in responding or has it in their mind to "screw you over". By the time you finally give up the time period for filing a "recoverable claim" will have expired. So much for trying to resolve these issues in a friendly manner. Also, someone mentioned that paypal will probably do nothing because something was recieved. It is up to the seller to show proof of delivery. If the seller has the proof that something was delivered then your are probably "screwed". If you look closely at your paypal agreement you basically agree to let paypal resolve disputes regarding a credit card transaction instead of the credit card company. Look at the agreement closely.

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05-31-2005, 11:57 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAs upsetting as it is to buy a fake off of ebay, why not look at the $10 as the cost of learning how to avoid the same mistake in the future. If it will help you be more careful and know what to look for that's $10 very well spent.

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05-31-2005, 12:04 PM

Posted By: Josh K.even though you may agree to let paypal handle the situation, if you report it to your cc company, they will investigate and take action if warranted under their own policies/practices. The cc company is not bound by your paypal agreement. Paypal does this, I presume, to try and prevent the cc companies from taking back money thereby costing paypal money. If they wanted to, paypal's recourse would be to claim that you violated your deal with them - but experience tells me they wont do that.

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05-31-2005, 12:50 PM

Posted By: DanDoes anyone know what the status of the Paypal Lawsuit is? I sent all my applicable documents in to them prior to the deadline and have not heard even a whisper about when the case is going to court, or if it actually ever will. I have a feeling that this is going to become one of those situations where the lawyers get all the money and the folks who got screwed out of their cash, will continue to get screwed out of their cash... kind of like some of the large tobacco cases that have gone down. Disclaimer - Sorry if I offended any lawyers on this board. Any thoughts?

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05-31-2005, 01:48 PM

Posted By: Josh K.no offense - I just got my settlement in a securities class action case. As a former owner of stock (that tanked) in the particular company, my share of the multi-million dollar settlement was $4.62. Im thinking it may be enougth to buy me a "vintage" 1976 shakey's pizza Ty Cobb. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-31-2005, 02:25 PM

Posted By: DanWow, a little over $4!!! Now, you certainly can't tell me that someone didn't line their pockets with money that rightfully should have come to you. Thanks for the feedback, I enjoyed the humor. When I retire from the military, I have my goal to finish my law degree and get on my way...

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05-31-2005, 02:58 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Hey, $4 was more than I would have guessed - and yes, Im sure the attorney's working the case made out considerably better. Im sure major shareholders did better as well (though their recovery still probably didnt come close to offsetting their loses).

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05-31-2005, 03:01 PM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineIt happened to me. I bought a doctored (meaning a reprint made to look aged/old/authentic)"1933 Goudey Lajoie". I got totally screwed, JASON DEAN (SELLER'S NAME) made a $122.50 profit ( my closing bid) off of a dime reprint.Which is why I NO LONGER use EBAY! EBAY SUCKS!!!! Best Regards, Adam J. Moraine

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05-31-2005, 03:17 PM

Posted By: dennisdid you really think you could get an original lajoie for $122.50???? ebay is the best place to get cards at decent prices,just buy from real sellers,there's lots of wonderful sellers on ebay!

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05-31-2005, 03:55 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI cannot believe that people who spend around $100 on Wagners, T206 Cobbs with Ty Cobb backs, and 33 Goudey Lajoies actually read this board. It is beyond my comprehension that somebody has the intelligence to seek counsel and advice on this knowledge base, and then turn around and do something like that . . . and then have the audacity to complain about the SELLER or eBay on this board. The problem with the vintage card market and, specifically, eBay's role therein, is that there are apparently so many wholly uneducated buyers out there that actually believe that they are the only ones who have found these amazing deals on "jewel" cards. As long as the uneducated masses throw countless hundreds at worthless cards, there will always be obliging sellers. If you are reading this and thinking about making such a bid, please understand that there are hundreds of experts pouring over the eBay listings on a daily basis and are not letting authentic $10,000+ cards go for under $500. The price alone should dictate at that level. If you see the price going over $1,000, $5,000, $10,000+ -- then and only then should you consider bidding, but again, only after educating yourself.

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05-31-2005, 04:27 PM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineIn my defense, sellers' who sell "doctored" cards on EBAY have no right to pass a reprint card off as "authentic". What gives these P.O.S. the right to make such false claims as to the authenticity. ALSO, I DO NOT have ANY 1933 Goudeys in my collection. THEREFORE, I did not have an actual 1933 Goudey to compare to JASON DEAN'S DOCTORED Lajoie. And to think, HE got upset with me for giving him a netgetive feedback, for advertizing, and selling me a DOCTORED, UNAUTHENTIC Lajoie as "the real deal". I would also like to mention, that I was new to EBAY at the time, and knew NOTHING about SCAM ARTISTS such as JASON DEAN, as I DO NOW.BMW Sportscards had told me that the Lajoie in question was UNAUTHENTIC, AFTER I had already made the damn purchase. Best Regards, Adam J. Moraine

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05-31-2005, 05:22 PM

Posted By: HowieMost of the professional scammers aren't claiming their cards are authentic. They feed you a great story but go on to say how they aren't experts so they must sell it as a reprint just in case, even though it's not marked reprint anywhere and looks real old. They leave it up to the novice bidder to decide and hope they land a big one.

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05-31-2005, 05:51 PM

Posted By: will watson"even though you may agree to let paypal handle the situation, if you report it to your cc company, they will investigate and take action if warranted under their own policies/practices. The cc company is not bound by your paypal agreement. Paypal does this, I presume, to try and prevent the cc companies from taking back money thereby costing paypal money. If they wanted to, paypal's recourse would be to claim that you violated your deal with them - but experience tells me they wont do that." Josh, i wouldn't recommend filing a chargeback with your credit card if you purchased through paypal. paypal doesn't like when you "go over their head" and directly to your cc company. no idea why, but i suspect that paypal would be losing out on their hard(ly) earned money. i've heard numerous stories of paypal punishing people by freezing their accounts for doing this. for anyone who wants to read about some of the paypal horror stories, check out www.paypalsucks.com . the site also has updates about the pp lawsuit. interesting read, and some of the horror stories will make you rethink using paypal. its great for buyers, but risky as hell for sellers

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05-31-2005, 06:50 PM

Posted By: Tim MayerI don't think it is audacious to complain about getting ripped off,,, that was a low blow,,,,a crook is a crook, and I always feel bad for someone who gets ripped off,, why? is someone stupid because they thought they got a good card for 100.00? I am always reading about the good deals people find on ebay on the board..so is the rule if you get a real one for a steal your smart, but a fake one dumb? I was disapointed with the audacity comment.

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05-31-2005, 08:02 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorI admit, and I apologize for disappointing anyone. But there is a difference between getting a good deal and getting what amounts to taking advantage of the seller -- if you're paying $121 for an authentic 1933 Lajoie, you are essentially admitting to taking advantage of the seller, because that card's worth thousands, no matter the condition. And I have very little sympathy for people who attempt to take advantage of others. I also have very little sympathy for bidders who think that the rest of the collecting world is asleep at the switch when they were fortunate to snag that T206 Wagner for $50. So, yes, these buyers people are getting nothing and paying for the privilege, but it's hard for me to have sympathy for them.

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06-01-2005, 11:37 AM

Posted By: Darren J DuetI wish I could have had a $10 lesson.

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06-01-2005, 12:14 PM

Posted By: warshawlaw1. Paypal is feckless; more to the point, it is powerless to prevent you from asserting your rights with your credit card company. State laws in nearly every state permit you to dispute credit card charges, including in California where Paypal/Ebay are headquartered. I use a CC to pay for expensive cards via Paypal and if I get ripped off ever again as I did with those 2 fake OJS I bought I will not hesitate to dispute the charge. 2. Many of the posters here have a profound and unfortunate misunderstanding as to how class action cases work and follow the propaganda from the business lobby in bashing attorneys as a result. Contrary to what has been suggested, the lawyers do not dictate the fees in class action; the judge presiding over the case rules on the fee applications of the lawyers. If he disagrees with the number, he doesn't award it. It is the same as in bankruptcy court. Everyone in the case receives notice of the fee application and has the chance to oppose it if they like. You also do not realize how insanely expensive it is to handle these cases because of the great number of people who must be located, notified and served with paperwork. The sort of small consumer class actions like the Paypal case may not result in big $$ payoffs to everyone, but that is because the losses people suffered were not big $$ losses. The alternative to these cases is allowing companies like Paypal to screw everyone a little and keep their ill-gotten gains. 3. No offense, but anyone would have to be more than a little oblivious and greedy to think you would get a five-figure card for a hundred bucks. Ebay is very close to a perfect market from an information standpoint, meaning that everyone has the same access to the same information in real time. On a high-profile item it is inconceivable that it would draw only 1%-5% of value unless there is a significant problem with the listing or the item listed.

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06-01-2005, 12:27 PM

Posted By: leonIn the future if you post in controversial ways or with strong opinions you are going to need to put your real name to the posting....I am not singling you out...it goes for everyone.....thanks for being a good contributor....moderator dude ps...someone recently asked how I would know it's their real name? I have my ways.... pss. T206collector has emailed me and we are cool.......still can't be anonymous personal issues (and there weren't).. so far so good....thanks

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06-01-2005, 12:27 PM

Posted By: T206Collector"No offense, but anyone would have to be more than a little oblivious and greedy to think you would get a five-figure card for a hundred bucks. Ebay is very close to a perfect market from an information standpoint, meaning that everyone has the same access to the same information in real time. On a high-profile item it is inconceivable that it would draw only 1%-5% of value unless there is a significant problem with the listing or the item listed." I think the problem is that even if bidders accept this as true, many delude themselves into thinking they have found one with a "significant problem with the listing of the item listed." For example, I won a T206 O'Hara on ebay (more on a parallel thread later), for under $700. The card was just graded by SGC as a 20 (or 1.5). It is probably worth $1,000-$1,200 in that condition. And there was much rejoicing for me, but why did I get such a good deal? I took a risk because the scan was shoddy, the seller had weak feedback and poor communication skills, but some people on this board knew the seller and vouched for his credibility and the likely authenticity of the card -- plus, he and I both live in New York, making a small claims court easily accessible to me. I lucked out and got a great deal. But even with all of the forementioned risk, the card still sold for about 50% to 60% of the final value. On these Wagners, Planks and Ty Cobbs with Ty Cobb backs, the cards are not selling for anywhere near 50% to 60% of the final value, but much closer to 1%-5%. These percentages are directly related to the likelihood of authenticity and other details regarding condition. At 100% authentic/condition accuracy, a card will realize approximately 100% of its value on eBay. At 1% authentic/condition accuracy, a card will realize 1% of its value on eBay. I suspect the problem is that people are looking at Wagners with 0% likelihood of authenticty, crediting it with a 1% chance, and bidding accordingly. Sort of like purchasing 100 lottery tickets in a lottery with no actual payoff. Buyers need to learn the percentages. The real deals on ebay are only found with a strong knowledge of these percentages in a given market as they apply to an individual auction.

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06-01-2005, 07:04 PM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineTHANK-YOU, FOR DEFENDING ME, TIM MAYER. I APPRECIATE IT!!!! Best regards, Adam J. Moraine

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06-01-2005, 07:17 PM

Posted By: AnsonI'll start off by saying, yes Anson is my real name <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm willing to bet that a large number of the Wagner, Cobb, and Ruth reprints sold on Ebay are purchased by folks who are planning to pass along the deception to someone else. In other words, they plan to purchase the card and hoax another off-balance individual. I've been on Ebay for many, many years and have learned a few tips in regards to buying. 1. If it's WAY too good to be true, it probably isn't real 2. Always pay for insurance. To not do so is crazy. 3. Always request tracking information 4. Check/calculate the shipping before you buy. If it seems extremely unreasonable, inquire with the seller. 5. Feedback ratings are helpful. However, read the feedback and understand the relationship to percentage as a function of actual transactions. 6. Avoid International sellers unless you are 100% sure that they're legit. There are many high-dollar scams associated with sellers in other countries. I'm relatively new to this board and really appreciate a lot of the help and information I've received. I would hate to see elitist attitudes ruin it for everyone. What may seem obvious or second-nature to some, may not be for others. Please be patient and you'll find that help can go both directions.

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06-01-2005, 08:07 PM

Posted By: D.Unfortunately, many of us posters have an understanding of EXACTLY just how class action lawsuits work and find the entire process completely riddled with fraud from top to bottom. All I want is my paultry $275 that Paypal STOLE from me and refuses to refund. As I stated, some attorney will pocket most of that money, not some "insanely" extensive process that is involved. I filled out all of the appropriate paperwork, shy of giving them my first born and a blood sample, so they had ZERO leg work. There was no locating me, no notification (except an email) and no paperwork served to me. This small consumer class action lawsuit came by way of many little screwings on behalf of MANY paypal customers, which ultimately adds up to a HUGE payoff... and not to the "little" people. Case in point... the tobacco case that was settled in Florida some years ago, do you think for one second that the "little" people, the ones that died and were dying, the cause for the case, got much money? No. Huge and I mean, HUGE, amounts of the money went to the attorneys whom prepared the case against the tobacco industry. Now, I am not trying to say that attorneys should work for free, that is not what I am saying at all. But these folks made MILLIONS off of this case, that is unreasonable in my opinion. br /> And I reiterate... in my opinion.

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06-01-2005, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Josh K.D William - you couldnt be more wrong. First, with respect to the paypal class action - by signing that paperwork, you are agreeing to the terms of the settlement. Like any settlement, paypal agreed to settle for some amount less than what the plaintiffs were asking in order to limit their potential losses, if any. The "if any" being the key words - the plaintiffs similarly agreed to settle for s/t less than the full amount of damages they claim in order to guarantee some recovery. Taken out of that settlement, of course, will be costs and fees - thus it doesnt take a math wiz to figure out if you are starting at an amount lower than the requested damages, not everyone will recover in full what they claim to have lost. I can also tell you, from experience, class actions are very expensive to both the plaintiffs and the defense. Im a corporate defense lawyer and I specialize in employment litigation (ie discrimination, sexual harassment etc.) - I cant tell you how many frivilous lawsuits I have had to defend that, despite winning, have cost my clients six figures in legal fees. That is with only 2 or 3 lawyers staffing the case - not hundreds as are needed large class actions like the the tobacco cases. If its a truly national class action, your likely to have lawfirms around the country working on the case. Now, granted, the defense lawyers are not likely to get a piece of the attorneys fees awarded in a settlement - however, the cost and fees that are rung up by the plaintiffs lawyers are every bit as significant and they have to shoulder the risk of doing all that work for no payday at all as most cases are taken on a contingent basis (ie win and you get x%, lose and get zero). Of course they should benefit from the agreement if they are successful. As for the plaintiffs and their recovery, well, I can guarantee you that the named plaintiffs (ie those who brought the suit) are typically well compensated - and, if successful, they should be. Unlike you and others who opt in after the suit has been filed and who shoulder no risk in the outcome, the named plaintiffs take on enormous financial risks as they are ultimately responsible for paying costs (such as filing, copying, postage, deposition expenses, etc. which in a class action can enormous), as opposed to legal fees, if they are unsuccessful. They also typically invest substantial time working with their attorneys for prosecute the case. Finally, if recovering your full $225 was that important to you, you had the option to opt out of the class and pursue the action on your own. You could have done that in small claims court by yourself with no real cost to you. That would have been the best means to ensure your rights are fully protected if you dont like the terms of the settlement. Everyone likes to bash the lawyers about their fees, but rarely do they have the facts to make a knowing statement. All I ask is that you understand the facts before challenging Adam or others who know what they are talking about. Oh, and as a defense lawyer - I abhor most class actions. But I recognize the work that is involved and the fact that they are often a necessary evil.

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06-02-2005, 06:07 AM

Posted By: Dan Your Honor, the Defense rests. This was a statement of facts here... once again, not to offend anyone. That being said, I was only attempting to make a point that the people whom are often hurt, are not typically the ones that recover much in way of damages. I do understand how these things are managed when it applies to how much legwork must be done. My point is, the system has gotten enormously out of hand and it is difficult to get our hands around how to make it any better. My fear is, it will never get any better and we will continue to litigate our country in to the ground. My apologies to all, I realize this is way off Vintage topic. I will edit my original reply as to not further my whining and to avoid upsetting the goodness of this board. I truly value the input from all of the years of collective minds here.

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06-02-2005, 06:57 AM

Posted By: warshawlaw"litigate our country into the ground" is such BS. Nothing of the sort is taking place, as independent study after independent study proves. Just yesterday The L.A. Times had an article on page 1 of the buiness section reporting that multiple studies of medical malpractice insurance rates were released proving that the supposed med mal litigation explosion has nothing to do with rising med mal insurance premiums--it is the insurers' investment losses that drive their premium decisions. Of course the facts never deter the propagandists. The business lobby WANTS you angry at lawyers because if they can piss you off sufficiently to get your support to cut off a lawyer's ability to get paid on contingency or through class actions, they effectively cut off the average person's ability to sue. Like the idea of being turned into a Crispy Critter because a car maker decides it would bd better to fry a few dozen people a year than spend ten bucks on a defective gas tank repair? That was the Pinto case and absent lawyers who were willing to go after Ford for it on their dime because of the ability to collect a contingency fee, that disgusting episode would be par for the course. Those of you who want to buy into the propaganda need to consider this: Before you so readily swallow the party line of those who would like to take a weed whacker to your right to sue, you had better ask who it is who wants to cut off those rights and why they want to cut them off. Isn't it interesting that the same a-holes who talk "free market, free market" while exporting our jobs overseas to prisoner-slaves in China want an artificially controlled market when it comes to their liability for stealing from and hurting others? You had also better be damned sure that no one in your family ever needs to sue, because once "reforms" are successfully put into place, they don't come off despite the evidence that they don't work, as is emerging with the med mal caps. The insurance and business lobbies put the money into the politicians' pockets to keep them there because they are profitable. I am very vocal about these issues not merely because I am a lawyer but because my family was the victim of a terrible loss and has run headlong into these stupid limits; I understand better than anyone just how unjust they are. My sister was killed by medical malpractice; the idiot doctor prescribed a lethal dose of medication for her and the pharmacy did not catch it. She took the medication as directed and died at 34 years old. The concentration of meds in her system was several times a lethal dose. My parents are in hell, as you might imagine, and because she was disabled and had no job (which is why she was under that quack's medical care and on the meds in the first place), their recourse against the incompetent swine who did this is capped at $250,000. The doctor actually defaulted on the case rather than fight it because it was cheaper to lose $250,000 than pay a lawyer to fight it and lose it anyway. I hope none of you ever go through this, but I hope that every lobbyist, corrupt politician and unthinking idiot supporter of those who try to cut off our recourse in court suffers like that. Of course I also hope their sons turn out gay and their daughters need abortions.

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06-02-2005, 07:09 AM

Posted By: DanFirst off, I am sorry at the loss of your sister and by the means that it came. You are right, people do need to be held accountable for their actions. My case, Paypal, your case, the doctor. Your last statement regarding this only reinforces what I was attempting to say in that, the people whom are often hurt, are not typically the ones that recover much in way of damages. So, where does the money end up? In someone else's pocket. I have some ideas as to who's those are. Please let's drop this. It was only an opinion, not an attack.

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06-02-2005, 07:29 AM

Posted By: Dan KotelesIm with ya on your replies. I cant imagine anyone thinking that they can get these type of cards for so little money.If you do not see anyone of the more expierienced collectors/dealers names on such cards,then it is too good to true. No, it is not right that anyone gets ripped off, but know what your buying certainly does help ! Again ,it might help to recognize familiar names bidding on such items .

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06-02-2005, 08:10 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Dan, Good advice. The names of the other bidders are exactly what I look at when Im bidding on a card that I do not know for certain to be authentic. After a while, you begin to recognize many of the bidders in the vintage market (if you dont already know them). I may not always be able to tell whether an unslabbed e card is authentic, but I can tell you if certain board members or other bidders have placed a bid, Im much more comfortable bidding myself.

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06-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Posted By: MarkI just got the results back from GAI for 142 cards I had bought ungraded off of the bay. 4 (including two T206s) were trimmed and two (both Douple Plays from the same dealer) were reprints/fakes. I realize that it's not a very scientific study, but I thought the stats might be of interest.

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06-02-2005, 01:59 PM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineDefense attorneys sicken me! But then again, IF I had the chance to make SIX-FIGURES in one case, to "defend" a murderer, who I KNEW FOR A FACT, in my heart was as guilty as sin. I would lie to a judge, and tell him/her that the guilty murderer was as wholesome as mom, baseball and apple pie! Best regards, Adam J. Moraine p.s. which is why my uncle has been deceased for 25 years, while the S.O.B. that killed him is STILL walking the streets a freed man.

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06-02-2005, 04:36 PM

Posted By: tbobare fighting on the final battleground, the 4th Amendment, which will keep ALL citizens from being the subject of unreasonable searches and seizures from wiretapping to unwarranted searches of your home and vehicle for no reason. In the aftermath of the horrible tragedy of 9-11, the Patriot Act and other abominations have been used against ordinary citizens like a sledgehammer killing a gnat. We all want to be safe and secure in our lives but if the powers that be have their way, we will take a huge step backward in to the morass of privacy violations of unrivaled proportion. I know where you are coming from, Adam, but the words of John F. Kennedy still ring clear 45 years later, when he said that when the rights of one man are threatened, the rights of all men are diminished. This is something that both leftists and rightists can agree upon. By the way, we aren't all scumbags and jerks...

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06-02-2005, 06:29 PM

Posted By: Josh K.Adam M. If you are referring back to my post where I stated I was a defense attorney, you need to reread it - I am a corporate defense atty - not a criminal defense attorney. I will also say that while my political opinions are likely very opposite of tbobs, I agree with him 100% that every person accused of a crime has a right to be represented - in this country, you are innocent until proven guilty. Believe me, innocent people are charged with and convicted of crimes. While it sickens me when "guilty" people get off on a technicality - for example an improper search, I can live with it. I know that that is one of the costs that you must pay to live in a free society. One that grants you constitutional rights, such as the right to live free from unreasonable and unwarranted searches and seizures (among other many others). Moreover, while what happened to your uncle is terrible, if the accused was truly guilty, the person to blame for him walking the street is likely the prosecutor, the police or the investigators who didnt have enough evidence to convict - not the defense lawyer who was only doing his job. By the way, contrary to your other statement, rarely do criminal defense lawyers receive 6 figures for defending a murder case - often they are paid a fraction of their actual rates because the government is paying a private lawyer or a public defender to defend the case. These lawyers have no stake in the outcome and no reason to lie or put on false evidence to win a case. Sorry for the rant, but it really cheeses me off when unknowledgeable people make idiotic statements like that about lawyers.

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06-03-2005, 06:37 AM

Posted By: ChadBut I'd like to throw my support in favor of the lawyers. Governments and corporations and such are really in business for themselves and, frankly, we need protection from them. Lawyers and the courts are the only protection we have. It amazes me how this obvious truth gets continually obfuscated by those who would benefit from weaker individual rights. For example, anecdotally, my brother an I had an argument about open courtrooms. He was in favor of excluding the media from trials and he used the Michael Jackson and OJ trials as examples why this should happen. So I asked him to list for me all the trials he can remember being reported in the last calendar year. He could only think of three. So, for the sake of 3 trials that the media has turned into circuses, he was willing to forgo one of our most fundamental protections of liberty. And he's a hell of a smart guy, too. Things are getting scary. Anyway, when my Oakland Oaks Billy Martin and my Toleteros Wilmer Fields and Luke Easter come in the mail, I'll be happy again. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> --Chad

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06-03-2005, 07:17 AM

Posted By: T206CollectorAlthough I am sure I could never be a defense attorney, our world would be a scary place without due process -- even for the scum of the earth. Even the worst criminals deserve to be tried fairly. Anything less relegates our society to witch hunts and lynch mobs.

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06-03-2005, 07:36 AM

Posted By: jackgoodmanMy only problem with attorneys is that, from my limited experience, the really good ones only represent the big companies since that is where the repeat business is. It's really hard to find a good attorney to represent a one-time plaintiff in a case because, unless it's a really big ($) case, they make more money from the repeat business corporations throw at them. My 2 cents.

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06-03-2005, 08:49 AM

Posted By: Josh K.Jack, You are right, there are many very good lawyers who represent big corporations. However, I can say there are plenty of equally good attorney's out there representing the little guy against those corporations. Though I personally didnt care for his politics, John Edwards (the former VP candidate) and a fellow raleigh, nc resident was one of the best trial lawyers to ever step foot in a courtroom. He represented the "one and done" plaintiffs and little guys. I will also add that the good plaintiff's attorneys are getting far bigger paydays than anything I will ever see as a defense attorney.