t206 printing

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i recently picked up a t206 red portrait cobb that is the orange background variation. i know we have discussed this variation, but i can't seem to find any back scans on previous posts. <br />my primary question is....What back does the "orange" cobb potrait come with?<br />i would think the cards would all come from the same print run. <br />mine is piedmont 350.<br /><br />thanks in advance!!!

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Hi andy!<br />It comes with the same possible backs as the red portrait, because it is the red portrait with a printing flaw.<br /><br />I haven't seen any back to be common with the flaw, but I guess it does make sense now that I think about it that it could come from the same print run.<br />Mine is sovereign.<br />robert

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Andy,<br />This is an interesting question. I will try to get to the safety deposit box to check mine today. If they were all from the same print run, it would be quite revealing. Mine is either Sweet Cap or Piedmont, and I don't know the series or factory info off hand. I will check.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>hi robert! <br />thanks for sharing. <br />i've got a sovereign 350 that is less red...close to orange. <br />ok...then more than 1 back exists....i doubt the variation exists with all backs.<br />any other backs out there??? <br />i agree this was not intended to be orange (i believe the card is missing cyan, please correct me)...but i prefer to call it a variation...like the no red sweeney.<br />board's thoughts???? <br /><br />edited to correct the worst spelling ever

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>I will say that mine is not like Jim's and some of the other board members who have shared there orange portraits in the past.<br />Mine is missing a color, but is not the true, orange color that the other versions have.<br />Perhaps, your orange/sovereign is simliar to mine. It's almost pink.<br />It can be viewed at <a href="http://imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206;jsessionid=ghqrys8m22.buffalo_s?p=32&n=25&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://imageevent.com/caramelcard/t206;jsessionid=ghqrys8m22.buffalo_s?p=32&n=25&m=24&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2</a><br /><br />It would be interesting to see if some of these variations/errors are common with certain backs.<br />robert

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>robert, on the scan yours certainly looks orange...not really pink. nice too.<br />if that is red near the top boarder...any thoughts how that came to be (printing question)? i have a red portion too...though different from yours.<br />

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>I'm not an expert on how these were printed, but if you look at the card, you see that the text appears at the top and bottom.<br />If the sheet was lined up a bit uneven from top to bottom, it seems like the card would get a portion of the above card's text (and color in this case)?<br />It's interesting, because the fact that the top portion has the red ink included might make you think that the rest of the sheet wasn't missing the color. Or maybe, only that row was missing the red?<br />Just random thoughts.<br />Now...for the experts...<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />robert

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>I personally like them a lot, and it would be interesting to see if the rpint appears on the top in others, and stuff.<br />I almost asked the price of one at a show recently, but lost my nerve...

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Hi julie.<br />Here's a nice one that was posted in an earlier thread by a member here.<br />robert<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1086540357&lp=1108533217" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1086540357&lp=1108533217</a>

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Just checked mine and it is a Sweet Cap 350 subjects, factory 30, dist. 24.<br />I believe I posted mine here before. Won't be going back to the safety deposit box this week. Will try to find the link to mine in the archives.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1108524073&lp=1108533217" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1108524073&lp=1108533217</a><br /><br />Here is the link to mine in the archives. The scan did not come out well. It is a lighter orange in person.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Jim.<br />What a nice card!

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Posted By: <b>R. Ellingsen</b><p>Here is mine front and back<br /><br /><img src="http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/OrangeCobb.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/CobbBack1.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I have 2 ORANGE Cobbs: one has a Piedmont (350 Subjects) back,<br />and the second has a Sweet Caporal (350 Subjects) back. So far,<br />based on the responses, the only common factor regarding the<br />backs of this particular color error is the "350 Subjects".<br /><br />But, my experience with T206 color error cards, is they can be<br />found without regards to the 16 different tobacco advertising<br />backs. I've had a YELLOW background Delahanty (normally GREEN)<br />that was a Tolstoi back. Another color error that I have seen<br />was a Steinfeldt (normally ORANGE) that was YELLOW.<br /><br />However, These ORANGE backgound Cobbs appear not be as rare as<br />we might think; for including the ones posted here, I now can<br />account for at least 12 of them over the past 20 years.<br />

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>thanks for all the responses! the 350 subject is a good point ted. <br />is there an explanation from a printing perspective?

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Here is some information from a VCBC article I wrote two years ago:<br /><br />"Another common “color variation” is the red-background card that has an orange background instead of red. Examples include a Tinker portrait and Willett batting, but I have seen many others as well. The Tinker portrait gives a clue as to what happened: both “red” and “orange” cards contain pink in the facial features, but the red portrait also has red lips. In addition, the red portrait has some background ink missing, revealing…orange! So, obviously a layer of red ink was left off of the orange portrait. Perhaps the orange was used beneath the red to add richness to the background. It worked - the two-toned red background cards are among the most visually appealing in the set. So these cards too, are actually just missing colors. <br /><br />The Vic Willis portrait also exists with various purple to red background colors. I have three and they each look different. Because the background contains combinations of red, purple, pink and blue inks, it’s not surprising that different color variations could result, just because the colors are so different and the amount of any particular one could easily vary from one printing to the next."

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p> Scott,<br /><br />Your description of the color error cards is vary similar to<br />my observations on not only T206 cards: but also N162, 1949<br />Leaf and Bowman cards. I've already noted my T206 color errors.<br /><br />In addition, I have an N162 Fred Dunlap (normally GREEN) that<br />has a YELLOW background. I have 1949 Leaf Ruth & Ted Williams<br />with PURPLE instead of RED backgrounds. Several more Leafs that<br />are YELLOW instead of GREEN. And, numerous 1949 Bowmans that<br />are PINK instead of RED; or YELLOW instead of ORANGE or GREEN.<br /><br />All the way back to 19th Century color printing, there has al-<br />ways been a 4 - phase process in color printing. You can still<br />see this when you get color copies (eg, at Staples). The copier<br />will scan 4 times for each color copy. To create a deep RED, it<br />prints a Pink or Orange tint first. To create ORANGE or GREEN<br />it first prints a Yellow. Now, I do not claim to be an expert<br />on this, but you can see how these color errors in sports cards<br />result when an incomplete printing run occurs at the factory.<br />And, in a rush to get product into the market, these cards slip<br />by whatever quality control exists at the factory.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Though it sounds like most of the orange variations are 350's, isn't the Old Mill "Large Assortment" shown above from the 460 series? I am a bit under the weather today, but I thought the "Large Assortment" and "460 Subjects" were essentially the same series of cards.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>JimB,<br /><br /> I can vouch that 8 of the 12 ORANGE Cobbs that I have seen in<br /> the past 20 years are from "350 Subjects" (Piedmont, Sweet<br /> Caporal, Sov., etc.) The other 4, I do not recall their backs.<br /> It was too long ago and too many cards since.<br /><br /> And, indeed R.Ellingsen's card is not a 350 Subjects back.<br /> I am not saying that we draw any definite conclusions from my<br /> anectdotal experience. T206 color errors can be found on any<br /> of the 500+ cards in this set, and irregardless of their<br /> Tobacco Co. affiliation.<br /><br /> Of course the Cobb card stands out above the rest. Conceivably<br /> there could be a YELLOW Wagner somewhere out there ! As normal<br /> ORANGE colored cards in this set have already been found with<br /> YELLOW backgrounds. <br />

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Posted By: <b>R. Ellingsen</b><p>Scott, I think you are very close to what happened on the Cobb's. I 100% agree with you that the final red is missing. The only thing I question is the actual use of the color orange in the background on it. From my card being off register I can see that the orange background is actually made up from the color yellow in the hair and pink for the facial tones (esp. strong on bottom left ear lobe). Here is a enlarged version of my card. You should be able to see that the color yellow is shifted to the bottom and pink shifted high (even over the top border). Red is totally absent on my card which is probably why it stayed orange. The final red coat never made it on it. I do think the background should have been made up of a coat of pink, yellow, then finally red with blue somewhere in between. It appears that only 3 out of four made it on mine.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://pages.prodigy.net/ellingsen1/OrangeCobbFr.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Edit: You will also see the same thing in Jim B's card posted above but itis not as far off register.<br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1108524073&lp=1108533217" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1108524073&lp=1108533217</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1108524073&lp=1108533217</a</a>>

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I'm looking at the Tinker image in the magazine article, and it's a "redder" orange than the Cobb. But it's hard to tell without having the actual card in hand (which I did when I wrote the article). Even when you have the cards in hand it can be tough to unravel the colors - the Willis was very difficult. Another consideration is that even if all four colors are present, the amounts of each can vary, which will give different appearances.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1116965468.JPG">