mid-grade collection transition, to high-grade collection [Archive]

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05-14-2005, 03:34 PM

Posted By: WayneBrand spankin new to the forum, and looking forward to many intellectual conversations with you folks! LOVE THE FORUM!!! Anyway, here is an intresting question I have always wondered..... I am a mid-grade t-206 collector..4,5,6....how many PSA,GAI, or SGC graded 5 t206's would it take to equal a trade for a PSA, GAI, or SGC graded 8 or 9??? Any help on this would be Muey, Muey Apperciated! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> If I need to be any more specific, please let me know, again I'm new to this, and look forward to conversing with y'all. THANKS!

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05-14-2005, 04:00 PM

Posted By: vetekbobWelcome to the board <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Nice to see another T206 fan on the board. I am still pretty new myself but the people here are great and they go out of their way to help one another while having fun at the same time <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> In response to your question, I think it depends on a few things.. 1) What kind of person are you dealing with? Dealing with a fellow collector who is looking to fill in gaps in their set and not soley concerned with what a population report may say, will allow you for more of an honest trade card for card versus card for strictly dollar amount. If you are dealing with someone who is primarily a seller and the 206 set doesnt happen to be a set they collect, then they may not be able to provide you as good a trade or sell price because they have to leave room for being able to make some kind of profit on their end. 2) Are you talking about trading commons for commons or commons for Hof'ers in a higher grade? 3) What types of backs are or would be involved in possible trades or sales? You have posed a good honest question howbeit it is a broad based question with lots of variables involved so it may be hard for the board to give any clear cut rules but I have no doubt that there are many here who can share keen insight with you better than I have feebly attempted to do. I have just started on the set my self in the mid grade range and it has been a blast so far and a lot of that has had to do with the fine people here who have given me sage advice and heads up along the way. I wish you the very best on your endeavor. Robert basicgreatguy@hotmail.com

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05-14-2005, 05:07 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI have to be cynical about the very high grade T206 cards. They are true condition rarities. Altered "high grade" stuff is a very big problem. I would rather have a vg-ex collection than a nm-mt collection for that reason. As far as valuation for trade, I do not think you can set an approximate ratio because of how scarce truly high grade material is; it virtually has to have an auction to set value. I know that I would want many, many times the low grade price for a true high grade card.

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05-14-2005, 05:08 PM

Posted By: T206CollectorIt's quite handy. Not perfect, but pretty good nonetheless. <a href="http://www.mlbvintage.com/t206" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mlbvintage.com/t206</a>/

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05-14-2005, 06:43 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellI can't answer how much the psa 4s,5s and 6s are worth but I just concluded a fairly substantial trade that valued T206 commons/minor leaguers ex so.leaguers in psa 8 at $5,500 for pop 1, $3,500 for pop 2, $2,250 for pop 3 and $1,500 for pop 4. Anything above pop 4 was $1,000(all these are psa 8 quotes). Stars depending on pop were generally 25-50% over SMR for PSA 8.

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05-14-2005, 06:52 PM

Posted By: WPDon't get caught up in the silly pop game. It seems that the pop figures in many cases are nothing more than statistical anomylies.

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05-14-2005, 07:08 PM

Posted By: JimCrandellWP, When you are trying to complete graded sets as I am, pop is everything. Throw out the price guide--the key determinent of price is the popoulation of cards in that grade. Dav

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05-14-2005, 07:38 PM

Posted By: jay behrensUntil every t206, and every other cintage cards for the matter, is slabbed, pop reports are totally meaningless. All it takes is a few big high grade collections to get slabbed and pop reports are screwed. And there are plenty of high grade cards out there tha haven't seen a slab yet. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-14-2005, 07:49 PM

Posted By: JimCrandell"until every vintage card is slabbed pop reports are totally meaningless". So you are saying its meaningless that if there are 2 1933 Goudey commons in psa 8--one with a pop of 30 and the other with a pop of 3 that it is meaningless in determining card value and it will be meaningless until way out in the future when every vintage card is slabbed?

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05-14-2005, 07:54 PM

Posted By: waynelets figure on common 4,5,6's for common 8 or 9's, and HOF's the same way. I dont really get into the backs game, so lets just for simplicity sake say Peidmonts, and Sweet Caporal's. THANKS!

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05-14-2005, 08:28 PM

Posted By: PASJDDid I read that log in correctly?

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05-14-2005, 08:31 PM

Posted By: PASJDThey don't capture every card obviously, but I would think by this point they are at least statistically significant in most cases as to scarcity, difficulty of finding cards in high grade vs. low grade, etc. One heck of a lot of cards have been graded, even if there are lots of unslabbed ones out there.

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05-15-2005, 12:08 AM

Posted By: Richard Massonis part of virtually every advanced collector's collection. Most of these were put together in the pre-slab era. There are wheelbarrows full of high grade T206s that haven't been slabbed. If there is no real reason for a particular card to have a "low pop", the number means nothing. To pay a premium is really a mistake, IMO.

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05-15-2005, 12:10 AM

Posted By: jay behrensmy point is, there are still a number of significant collections out there owned by long time colelctors that will not be slabbed, and will never be slabbed until the cards find new owners. Without even giving much thought, I can think of at least a dozen major vintage collection that are still raw and will remain that way. I'm sure there are far more collections like this out there since I know that I don't know all the new collectors that have come into the hobby since '91 and what they have bought. Basing a purchase price on a pop report is pure folly. But if it makes you happy, that's all that counts. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-15-2005, 12:36 AM

Posted By: tbobI think Richard is right, I know in my T206 near set I have several cards I think might give a run at a PSA 7 or 8 but I want to keep the set all together in the mylar pocket pages in their binder and not have all raw but a couple slabs. Based on this logic, it stands to reason that there are others out there who have T206 near sets completed a while back who don't have the inclination to send some of their cards in for slabbing.

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05-15-2005, 05:28 AM

Posted By: JohnI agree Pop-Reports mean nothing. I’m sure there are other examples of most all cards, which have yet to be slabbed. These cards are in many private collections. I myself have cards which I have never slabbed I’ve never even sent a card to a grading company until last week. However I disagree that there are wheelbarrows full of high grade T206’s or other cards for that matter, just lying around. I find it hard to believe that most every advanced collector has a T206 set filled with NM cards just sitting in a closet. But there’s no doubt that if all cards were slabbed today the pops would be way off. Some poor bastard would find out that he wasn’t the only one to own a PSA 9 Peaches Graham T206 and the $5k he spent was a tad silly. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again I really think grading companies are pure poison. Grading companies should only authenticate and that’s it no grades need to be assigned. Let the grade and price be set between the seller and the buyer. The hobby would be a better place. We no what a good-looking card looks like.

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05-15-2005, 05:49 AM

Posted By: T206Collector...in this thread is that some meaningful percentage of PSA 7+ graded T206 cards are either trimmed or way overgraded (or trimmed and way overgraded). I like to see the pop report on SGC's website because I am only competing with other SGC collectors. PSA grades of T206 are way too inconsistent to actually mean anything, let alone serve as a pricing mechanism.

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05-15-2005, 07:11 AM

Posted By: JimCrandellT206 Collector, Why do you think that a meaningful percentage of psa 7plus T206s are trimmed/way overgraded? I think all major psa dealers would price T206s off their pops. When I was trying to establish a value for the 21 psa 8/9 cards that I was trading all three of the national dealers I spoke with (Memory Lane, Mile High, Lelands) keyed the values for each card off of its pop. Dav

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05-15-2005, 07:29 AM

Posted By: RobI would tend to think that most in this forum would try to get the best grade they can. The trade of a few lessers for one greater might be okay with those completing the set, but maybe not for singles collectors.

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05-15-2005, 08:20 AM

Posted By: David VarghaPopulation reports, although potentially misleading for a number of reasons, are hardly meaningless to collectors who are purchasing slabbed cards. This is not to create yet another referendum on the actual worth of such slabbing. It is simply to say that such reports give an indication of the availability of certain cards within the parameters of the sub-group of those particular cards that have been slabbed by certain third-party graders. Once again, it seems that people are upset with the marketplace, when it is no respecter of persons whatsoever. Scarcity, coupled with demand, drives higher prices. My problem is not that certain cards cost too much, but that I don't have enough money. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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05-15-2005, 08:42 AM

Posted By: vetekbobAm I the only one that feels that the original question and intent of this thread has gotten hijacked as it were? The question was about how might he go about making trades in his T206 set and what might he look for and be aware of so that he could upgrade his personal collection without losing his rear on it. The question that was asked WASNT about do you agree or disagree with population reports or even card grading for that matter and yet this thread has turned into an arguement on population reports without trying to help the author of the post for the most part. I dont feel he asked the question to start a pro or anti population report debate. He didnt state he was soley concerned about population reports. He said he was a collector in a specific grade range. Some people can collect graded cards and at the same time not care about having the very best set in the world per some grading companies standards. I tried to help the gentleman but I am too new on the set to be able to do so in the manner he asked. Is there a seasoned T206 collector that can possibly help him with some tips and sage advice in this area without using his honest question as a chance to jump on a personal bandwagon? basicgreatguy@hotmail.com

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05-15-2005, 09:05 AM

Posted By: dennisi think you could find the answer by checking the psa smr for a graded 5 t206 and then check for a graded 8 (same t206)and come to a conclusion based on this price guide.seems simple to me.

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05-15-2005, 10:55 AM

Posted By: jay behrensSomething else that hasn't been mentioned about pop reports is the cracking and resubmitting of cards. Say thre is only one PSA9 of a given card. How many of the 7s and 8s are actually cracks and resubs? This alone skews population data. And how about the card that 30 plus PSA8 with none higher. How many are resubs that were sent back trying to get the first 9? Statistically, population reports are completely unreliable. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-15-2005, 02:35 PM

Posted By: wayneyour right Vetekbob!!!! This HAS turned into a debate of sorts regarding pop reports. I just wanted to know how many PSA, GAI, or SGC 5's I would need to trade to recieve a 8 or a 9??? COMMONS FOR COMMONS AND HOF'S FOR HOF's. Now if what everybody is saying is it has a lot to do with the pop reports....I get it...believe me I get it. Im just lookin to upgrade my collection from predominently 4 and 5's to eventually 8 or 9's....thats all.

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05-15-2005, 02:58 PM

Posted By: JohnWayne; I believe you can answer your own question with a calculator. What’s the avg. price PSA 4-5’s are going for (Common or HOF) on ebay. Then take the avg. price for PSA 8-9’s and divide by the total and it should tell you. Example. PSA 5’s seem to be around $70-150 depending on pose, back, and player PSA 4’s seem to be around $40-100 once again depending on pose, back, and player PSA 7’s seem to be around $350-475 PSA 8’s seem to be around $600-1100 Example if you wanted to trade your PSA 4 commons for a PSA 8 common it would be around 15 PSA 4’s on the low end of the price exchange going by current sales numbers I just checked on ebay. So it’s settled give me 272.5 PSA 4 common T206’s and you can have this. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"> <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5195181775&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5195181775&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1</a</a> Now that we’ve helped Wayne now can I say I think grading companies and pop-reports are silly. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/-37.gif">

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05-15-2005, 04:04 PM

Posted By: Judge DredWayne, Funny you should have logged in as "when it was a game" with the subject matter you proposed. WIWAG used to do upgrades on cars as well. The difference is that and it didn't cost them a penny. I'll stop there because those guys were actually nice dealers before they got greedy. Everyone has a certain thresh hold of pain. If you go with just straight commons and nothing special on the backs then you'd be looking at 8-10 "5s" for an "8" if you follow the SMR. First off you'd have to find someone willing to make this trade. Personally, with the hype on grades and recent (inflated) valuations I don't think you'd find many people willing to make the deal. It all boils down to what you feel is equitable for a trade. You'd have to look at how much you have invested in those "5s" and decide if you really want to make this move. If you're thinking about a complete set then, unless you have deep pockets, it might not be a good time to start this endeavor. If you only want to get rid of mid grade material because you "now" place a higher priority on condition then I guess you've already made up your mind that quality over quantity is your new prevailing collecting niche. Personally, I'd take mid grade material over the high end stuff because the mid grade material is more plentiful (and relatively reasonably priced) and I trust it much more than a lot of the encapsulated high grade material. You'll hear the following more and more if you keep up with this forum: BY THE CARD, NOT THE HOLDER! Who knows, you just might get an borderline "8" that really bothers you because deep down you really know it should be a "6" or "7". If this happens then good luck unloading the holder.

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05-15-2005, 06:10 PM

Posted By: WayneThanks for the last two responses, as thay have been rather informative. Actually Dredd, I'd never considered the fact that my Graded 5's would be an attractive collection if I stayed with that same baseline. I never knew of the skeptisism so may had toward high graded t-206's, but after reading some of the posts on this topic, I'm mildly suprised to read so many WARY of these grades, even by grading companies with long histories. Maybe I am simply already doing the right thing, and collecting mid-grade t-206's....at least people will consider those more genuine and comforting since so many are SCARED of 8,9, or heaven forbid a 10:) Then again, maybe I am just niave. What does everybody think, Is this a reasonable line of thinking...should I just keep collecting mid-grade t-206 material, and be happy with this??? Let me know. THANKS Wayne

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05-15-2005, 08:55 PM

Posted By: warshawlawPSA has been around a long time but has ****ed up a lot lately and has lost a lot of good personnel (for example, the GAI start-up). Past performance is not a reliable indicator of current skills. My experience, which dates back to the 1970s, is that the mass of high grade material we are seeing today did not exist before the big money made its way into the game. There are some legit "finds" of cards, but (1) these are few and far between and (2) as can be seen from the cards that do surface in legit finds, most are not nm or better even in well-preserved lots (like the FL find a couple of years ago that SCDA slabbed when it used to slab cards; most of it was mid-grade and these were very well preserved). Where were these cards 20-25 years ago? My hunch is sitting in album pages with dings and creases and minor stains that have vanished. We've had quite a few threads in the past about how to alter cards and get them graded. The least detectable and most effective repairs are hairline creases and foreign stains. I collect boxing cards, something that has only gained real momentum over the last five years or so. There are a great variety of T cards, most paralleling the baseball sets. High grade cards are rare, as are alterations, because the values are not there...yet. If/when the prices merit it, I fully expect to see a plethora of high grade cards hit ebay. Many of these will be doctored and all will be slabbed. I just do not buy and I will not spend money on the high grade T cards out there unless I examine them raw first and/or have impeccable provenance behind them.