How much money is out there? [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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04-30-2005, 08:44 PM

Posted By: PaulThe Robert Edwards Auction brings back to mind a question that I've been wondering about for awhile. How many people out there have the resources and the willingness to spend, say, $5,000 on one lot of vintage baseball cards? And to do this not once in a lifetime, but several times a year? I mean this question very seriously. The percentage of people with that kind of discretionary income is very small. Combine that with the percentage of people with a serious interest in vintage cards, and the number is even smaller. Yet, in auction after auction held by REA, Mastro, Lew Lipset and a few others, dozens if not hundreds of lots of vintage cards are sold for many thousands of dollars each. The membership of this board collectively probably knows every serious vintage card collector in the country. I would be very interested to hear your estimates of roughly how many folks there are out there spending this kind of cash on vintage cards. I am absolutely not asking for information about anyone's personal finances. I'm just interested in the overall state of the market. Maybe a different way of asking my question is this: How large is the potential universe of bidders on vintage card lots in the 5K plus range? Thanks.

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04-30-2005, 08:59 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackIt's likely that a number of people are investing in sports memorabilia, which means they are putting more than collecting money into an auction. My guess is that a number of investers spend their money in the big auctions and skip eBay.

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04-30-2005, 09:21 PM

Posted By: tedTo keep it short....i'm sure some people use cards instead of stock market, i'm sure a few use loans and mortgages and such....and i'm sure a few are fiscal in other aspects of their life to leave them extra funds for big purchases. That being said, you'd be amazed at how much liquid is around this country. Those people, take olberman or candyman, are wealthy for whatever reason and can drop 200k and not blink. Furthermore, i'm sure some people lake the financial prudence necessary to sustain a healthy lifestyle and at the same time, collect something they love. In otherwords, i'm sure some of you out there buy it b/c you love it..not b/c you can afford it... BlackSoxFan

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04-30-2005, 10:08 PM

Posted By: Brian LindholmeThat limit has been officially declared by my wife <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Seems the 8 yr old minivan needs brakes and the sofa is sagging...kid just got braces and the dog got neutered. Sounds like a bad country and western song !!! I'd rather buy a few more Fan Craze cards and finish off my T205 set but I don't want the song to be D-I-V-O-R-C-E <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I think this is a good topic, but I also know that ALL grown-up hobbies get expensive. What about my neighbor with the new truck to pull his new boat who is building a bigger garage for the RV Bus ? I'm thinking "This guy is NUTS...why he doesn't just buy some graded Cobbs or Wagners and stop fooling around ??? hahahaha Take care, Brian L.

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04-30-2005, 10:49 PM

Posted By: JimBThat is a very interesting question. Apparently there are a lot of them. But other than the big auction houses, we don't know if it is a thousand people winning one or two lots each or a much smaller number who win multiple lots. Most likely some combination of the two. JimB

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04-30-2005, 11:12 PM

Posted By: Joe_G.For every collector who bids big on a lot, there is a seller (who is also likely a collector) who now has big money to do as he/she pleases. In some cases the seller is getting out of the hobby but there is more than enough new blood to take his/her place with disposable funds.

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05-01-2005, 12:32 AM

Posted By: DJThat is an interesting question. I for one am a collector true to heart, like you guys. I did purchase two separate collections a year ago that would set me back twice the paid amount today and I basically purchased the collections for a handful of cards. I was able to sell off the rest for a small profit and have those kept cards pay for themselves. I have met several 'new' collectors who got into the buying market because it is the hot thing to do now as they are unhappy with the current state of the Stock market. Purchasing a collection for four figures is kind of like the tech wave where people were purchasing stock that they knew nothing about but noticed they were increasing on a daily fashion. Are vintage pre-war trading cards in the same family as 'beanie babies'? Do I need to compare Charlie Buffington to 'Tabasco the Bull'? I used to purchase around a dozen decent cards a month for my collection and that is now down to maybe 2-3. I see $60 cards selling for $200 and $300 cards selling for $600 and I haven't been able to add an OJ in three months where I would pick up at least two a month. It's good for my private collection now (the soaring values), but I'm having trouble making sense of the current market...my card family 'ain't growing'. While us VBC members ogle, enjoy and love our cards (and the history behind the players on the cards), a rich wig who has no idea what a W514 is or a T217 is high bidder on something he knows nothing about. As far as REA, I've given up. 0-3. DJ

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05-01-2005, 07:34 AM

Posted By: RobI have that one - the one with the red feet. Is it worth anything? Regardless, it's a keepsake of sentimental value.

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05-01-2005, 07:45 AM

Posted By: warshawlawThere is a core of collectors out there (like me) who work extra hours to generate extra income to use on cards. Thankfully, business is good enough right now that I don't have to sell off cards to finance my habit. There are many collectors/dealers who primarily buy for themselves but who grab bargains where they can be found and try to sell those cards, or who hold them for later use as trade bait and/or rainy day sales. There are some collectors who are also sold on the idea of cards as investments. They not only buy what they collect, they buy what they think will go up in price, meaning that the current pricing is not an issue to them. Who among us would not have happily paid twice the then-market price on caramel cards in 2002 knowing what we know now? I know that around my house lately I am not getting any **** about buying cards instead of putting the $$ into an "investment" like stocks (which have always struck me as about as intelligent an investment as betting on black in roulette, but I digress). There are some investors, but I suspect that number is far, far less than many think. There simply hasn't been the press coverage like there was 15 years ago that propelled casual people into the market. Finally, the items that are selling big are really tough to find. All it takes is a half-dozen serious collectors to skyrocket an auction when they all want the items in question.

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05-01-2005, 09:43 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeThere are several serious, longtime and some new collectors that are not "posting" to this board that can spend $5000 at lunch 3 times a week and not have it phase them.

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05-01-2005, 10:20 AM

Posted By: JoshInteresting topic, I too am amazed when I see these prices, but when it really comes down to it, 80-90%+ of these items being sold at Mastro, REA, etc. are rare investment quality items, and a $5K investment is really a small piece in the big picture of one's portfolio (assuming one has some sort of investment portfolio, whether it be as simple as a bank account to stocks/bonds to real estate, and I highly doubt the majority of the buyer don't have something together). Two weeks ago I purchased a lot from the Mastro auction that I paid $4,700 including juice. Yesterday, I won a lot from REA that will run me $5,200. While the $10K layout may seem hefty, I think my $10K here will hold up as well if not better than if I had gone and poured in into say, 150 shares of Altria. Obviously, not everyone has $10K just laying around burning a hole in their pocket, but this is money that I have essentially budgeted from my income specifically for these type purchases. I think there are a lot of other investor/collectors who think along the same lines, and these are the people who are laying out $5-10K.

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05-01-2005, 10:40 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestJosh reminds me of: "...I've got 20-20 vision, but only looking back." I think most people who dump large sums into vintage cards are kidding themselves when they call it an "investment" - that's usually just rationalizing the fun they are having. Since many "investment type" cards have risen over the last few years, these so-called "investments" are making the collectors look mighty wise, but as Barry has pointed out, this hobby has had dips in the past and will have additional ones.

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05-01-2005, 11:26 AM

Posted By: warshawlawyou still have cards. When my enron stock tanked all I had left was a popcorn fart, which is nothing at all...

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05-01-2005, 11:30 AM

Posted By: Texas TedWithout sharing more information than is prudent, I got into cards as a way to diversify my investments. A few years back when the dot coms were flying and stocks seemed to be hitting new highs every day, I decided it could not last, and sold a bunch of stock to put into cards. While I did not expect them to earn huge dividends, I just did not want to have all of my eggs in the stock market basket. Well it did not take long for the market to drop, and I have friends whose portfolios took hits of 50% or more. My cards have either maintained their values or gone up a little. I have since taken many of those large lots and sets, and sold individual cards or smaller lots to make small profits. Since I am semi-retired, I have the time and energy to do that, and do not need to depend on the income to feed my family. All the dollars I get from sales net of expenses go right back into cards. As a result, my initial "diversification" has done much better than what it would have done in the market, and has been a whole lot more fun. Now I guess I am a small time dealer, and would like to protest against some of the anti dealer sentiment and rants I have seen on the board. Dealers provide a service that helps your hobby. We in fact make a market for the cards you love. We bring the buyer and seller together and make a little for our efforts. If all sellers had the time, talent and desire to market their cards individually, they could realize the highest return for their cards. But most don't want to take all that time, and are willing to take something less to get their money immediately without a lot of work. That allows me to do all the scanning, listing, mailing, record keeping and dealing with the occasional moron, non paying bidder and check bouncer to supply the cards y'all like to collect. True, some dealers are jerks and money grubbers and there are the frauds and shysters out there too. But many "dealers" are not bad people. Thanks for letting me rant. Texas Ted Starting my third attempt at a second childhood.

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05-01-2005, 11:37 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI had a friend whose all tech portfolio peaked at $2.1 million during the boom. He resisted the temptation to diversify or cash out and today hasn't got a pot to pee in. I myself was forced to leave lots of money on the table because I could not talk my better half into selling off our tech holdings until well into the slide (actually, I surreptitously sold off half our holdings without telling her then got her permission; had I waited for her to pull the trigger nearly all of the profit would have evaporated instead of just about 50% of it). Like I said, even if the cards tank (and over the last 30 years, they haven't dipped any worse than any other asset and have always rebounded), I still have my little works of art to enjoy.

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05-01-2005, 12:53 PM

Posted By: Scott Forrestsay GOLD

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05-01-2005, 01:03 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackAs far as purchasing art and memorabilia for the long term, I am a firm beleiver in buying high quality items that you love and that you feel are well undervalued/underappreceated. High quality today is high quality ten years from now, and the worst thing that can happen is you end up with high quality items that you love. Also, an investor in this type of stuff should avoid overpaying at the start because he beleives the material is sure to go up in the future. This is a common error for beginners investing in modern rookie cards or whatever. That PSA graded Goudey Babe Ruth isn't the investment. The investment is the amount of money you paid for that PSA Babe Ruth Goudey. Strangely, many beginning investors in memorabilia beleive that two people purchasing exactly equivelent items but at different prices are making the same investments because they both purchasing the same material.

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05-01-2005, 03:00 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestSome collectors with loads of discretionary income spend "whatever" it takes to get an item they want, then call it an "investment", when really they simply wanted the item and had the firepower to blow away the competition. It's possible the item will be re-sellable later at a higher value, but the thought process that went into the bidding probably wasn't as thorough as what David would go through. I know this to be true because I've spoken with such bidders and what it came down to was "I really needed it" or "I had to win SOMETHING" or "I fought it out with the other bidder and WON". Doesn't sound like strategic investment decisions.

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05-01-2005, 05:56 PM

Posted By: JohnI have to agree with Scott. Baseball cards are not an investment; it’s a great way to rationalize spending large sums of money. But if you were to sit down with a financial planner most would laugh at the idea. This is not to say invest wisely in your collection, watch market prices try not to pay more than something is worth. Its also smart to leave yourself some room for positive returns when you buy items you may decide to sell in a few years. The simple fact of the matter is cards are not the stock market they can be loosely compared sure any collectible can. Enron may have bombed true. But if you spent the $62,530.94 dollars you would have spent on the 2 cards bellow on Microsoft stock in August of 2000. In pretty sure you would not have sold the stock for $45,875.00 in May 2005 for a loss of $16,655.94 five years later. Cards are cards buy them because you want them, can afford them etc. Sure there better than going to Vegas or the horse track. But don’t kid yourself that they are sound financial investing. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/32806.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/Item_2058_1.jpg">

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05-01-2005, 06:01 PM

Posted By: PASJDI would be very surprised if many people buy cards strictly or even principally as an investment. I would suspect those who say it is more a rationale for spending discretionary income are correct. Not that it can't work out well sometimes, but I just don't believe that the prospect of appreciation (which would have to include serious study of current prices and expected trends, and would mean that one would only buy cards one thought were relatively underpriced) is what is motivating the vast majority of purchases.

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05-01-2005, 06:21 PM

Posted By: RIchard LloydI guess the way I look at it...BUY what you like as long as it is vintage and LONG TERM collecting will take care of its future worth... My cards are not for sale for another 20 years!!! buy the right stuff and TIME will take care of future worth... I am in it for the long RUN..Somethng "you always" here in buying stocks and bonds.. I NEVER think what a card cost today an 1 year from now what would it may be worth... to me..thats not the correct mind set for a COLLECTOR!!! TIME WILL TAKE CARE OF THE CARDS WORTH...long term thinking!! Best

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05-01-2005, 06:36 PM

Posted By: David VarghaI have always lost money on every card transaction I have ever made. They are a very bad investment. DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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05-01-2005, 07:38 PM

Posted By: Paul ArpasiI'm a collector and a physician. I try to always get a good deal in order to make the card an investment piece. The gentleman above who said that the investment is the price you pay for the card not the card itself is correct, in my opinion. I find that the large auction houses offer rare opportunities to obtain stuff you infrequently see on ebay or at shows but, unfortunately, buyers premiums and hobby millionaires keep me from looking in those arenas for cards. I choose therefore to continuously improve my collection by selling cards, buying cards which are a deal and trading cards adding discretionary income as I see fit. The fun after all is not paying whatever price is necessary to get a card. The fun is in looking looking looking and finally finding an item in a deal and at a price which is rewarding.

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05-01-2005, 07:42 PM

Posted By: tedHey Paul!!!! Glad you found your way to the forum

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05-01-2005, 10:50 PM

Posted By: Dave HI am in investment advisor at a national brokerage house. Cards are most certainly an investment, but like any investment, your return will come from your skills at obtaining good value for your purchase (good purchase price) combined with your skill at recognizing which 'cards' the market will assign the most growth in price to over your holding period. the current problem is, while individual issues will do better than some in the near term, we are probably at or near a longer term peak in prices as we speak. card cycles are similar to stock cycles, this one mirroring the move to 'hard assets' starting in march 2000. cards are participating in the recent (5-6 year cycle) upturn in commodities/real estate/art markets as investors moved away from financial assets (stocks). ironically, peaks usually occur when a large amount of unsophisticated participants enter a market (much of what you are all saying here in essense) and have no sense of true value, purchasing an assett simply because is has gone up and they expect it to go up again (greater fool theory). stick to your hard pricing principals and let the cards pass if they are too expensive. inevitably, as always, the market will turn and you will be there to pick up the same cards on the cheap when the blood is in the streets.

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05-01-2005, 10:55 PM

Posted By: Scott Forrestin summary: buy low, sell high?

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05-01-2005, 11:02 PM

Posted By: Wesley<the current problem is, while individual issues will do better than some in the near term, we are probably at or near a longer term peak in prices as we speak.> Dave, Are you saying this is a good time to cash out of our sportscards?

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05-01-2005, 11:32 PM

Posted By: JohnSorry I still don’t see cards as an investment anyone or I should be putting too much into. Collecting for the fun of it sure, its like buying a new boat, fancy car, stereo or new plasma TV. You most likely will not make money or get a return. Also I doubt many of us will grow to attached to our IRA or stocks like we will or baseball cards. I was always under the impression that in the long run cards are really only worth what someone is willing to pay you for them. I don’t recall being able to work down the price of a share of stock. Or being offered only $40 for a share of a stock that was worth $60 because the buyer felt it was a fair price. Not arguing that you can make money with cards sometime. But if I had my choice of $100k worth of Microsoft or $100k worth of baseball cards for my retirement. It’s a no brainier.

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05-01-2005, 11:57 PM

Posted By: robert aJohn. You do have your choice. Sell your cards and buy microsoft. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-02-2005, 06:24 AM

Posted By: Richard LLOYDThe folks who bought George C miller cards, Star candy cards,Uncle Jacks cards,...etc. in the 70's-80's are making a killing today!! GREAT INVESTMENT!! The "RIGHT" cards will increase if a collector takes the long term approach.. its years not days to look for a return!! Best

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05-02-2005, 06:51 AM

Posted By: leonIronic you would use the Microsoft vs cards analogy. About 5 years ago I sold 300 shares of Microsoft at $71.00 ea. With that exact money, and a tad bit more, I bought the Four Base Hits Kelly. The Microsoft is standing about $25 ea share now. The Four Base Hits has probably close to quadrupled in value.....yes, this is only one instance but I would say you might be careful when making these analogies. Who knows when, of if, the bottom will fall out on cards but they have done better than most stocks I've bought. regards

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05-02-2005, 07:02 AM

Posted By: robNot to bring you down Leon, but microsoft split 2:1 in 2003, thus your sale is still certainly a good one, not as juicy as you have represented in your posting. I would rather have a vintage baseball card than a stock these days anyway, congrats on rolling over into some nice cards.

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05-02-2005, 07:12 AM

Posted By: leonI would have to go back and look at the timing of the split, and my cost basis to see how poorly it did, but regardless it has done mediocre at best. The weighted graph is still from $40'ish a share in '01 to $25'ish today. To me that's around a 30% loss....and the card has gone up 300%-400%....depending on the price it would bring.....take your pick.....regards

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05-02-2005, 07:16 AM

Posted By: robmuch agreed, thats why i said the sale was still a good one. I was not disputing the clear excellence of swapping into a different investment, just trying to clarify some of the numbers...again, well done!

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05-02-2005, 07:29 AM

Posted By: leonWho'd a thought that many years ago that stocks vs cards would be a relative investment comparison. It seems that almost ANY pre-WWII card has done well over the last 5 years. Let's hope it continues. My thought's are that it will for the reasons pointed out in this thread. There are quite a few folks using cards as an investment vehicle and when you enjoy it at the same time it can make for exploding growth. Add to that technology and the availability it brings with it, of extremely rare cards (which is an oxymoron anyway), and away we go.....happy investing....uh er......I mean collecting....

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05-02-2005, 08:02 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeJohn, I wish cards were not an investment. We would then have all collectors and no investors and no grading companies like it used to be, it was alot more fun then. Dick, those of us who purchased the millers and others in the 70s and 80s did it for collecting, not investing. Dan.

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05-02-2005, 08:13 AM

Posted By: Richard LLOYDYou are RIGHT Dan and thats my main point that collect the RIGHT cards and have fun and the value will take care of its self... LONG TERM thinking!! keeping the Miller..etc.. cards because you enjoyed them eventually took care of the $$$$ value.. so, the way that I look at it is buy the cool or odd ball cards and have fun with them and 10-20 years from now you will say gee- they are worth XXX% more and I had fun doing it.. The value will increase proportional to the rareity of the card today..which means.. providing you buy cards that are sought after!! they will still be sought after 10-20 years from now.. Best

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05-02-2005, 08:43 AM

Posted By: Adam J. MoraineI agree with Mr. Lloyd, 110%. I am 24, and collect nothing but vintage cards. Vintage cards/ memorabilia. Pre WW2- mid 1960's. My friends collect newer stuff (game used memorabilia cards). I believe that 20 years from now, my 1953 Topps Mickey Mantle (I know NOT vintage by boards standards, just using an example)will be worth a lot more money than a card of A-ROD with a little piece of game used jersey attached to it. Best Regards, Adam J. Moraine

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05-02-2005, 10:00 AM

Posted By: jay behrensOn a percentage basis, I wouldn't rank The George Miller cards as one of the best. I remember around 1985 paying $200 for a really nice common. At the same time, I was paying less than $10 for NM t206s. Also, commons have far outperformed HOFers on a percentage basis. In the 80s, I did a lot business as a consultant building collections as an investment. My first piece of advice I gave to them was to buy things that they had some connection to such as a favorite player, team, etc. That way, when the market gets soft or bottoms out, you still have something that makes you feel good when you look at it. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-02-2005, 10:28 AM

Posted By: calvindogAs someone who spends 6 figures a year on cards, I can tell you that this 'hobby' is hardly thought of as an investment. Josh, Altria is a good buy right now and unlike T206 prices, is not at a peak. While I certainly agree that the stock market is hardly a place for prudent investing over the past 5 years, why not compare card collecting to the real esate boom instead of comparing it to the price of JDSU? I rationalize my ridiculous outlays by knowing that, at worst, I may only recoup 90% of what I spend should I sell in the next couple of years. As for the future, I'd like to think that this commodity will not become hit the skids. The reason why people like us ultimately cannot view card collecting as an investment solely is that we are in love with these precious bits of cardboard and the clear thinking required to treat them as strictly investments is simply not there.

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05-02-2005, 10:56 AM

Posted By: richard lloydAnd "why I believe" the reason why prices will never hit the skeds is because there will always be "COLLECTORS" looking for these wonderfull piecies of cardboard and if you think it is tough to find these "HIGH SOUGHT" cards today..just think how tough it will become 10-20 years from now to find them.. ATTRITON!!!!!

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05-02-2005, 11:00 AM

Posted By: Bill StoneI wasn't sure whether to post this under this heading or the T210 thread but either would fit my thoughts . I have been attempting to collect the players on the Frankfort baseball team in the Blue Grass League--T210 Series 6. In the past year I have acquired one from a fellow board member and secured scans of all but 2 of the total of 8 cards in that series( thanks to the assistance of other board members). While I would pay dearly to acquire the remainder of the set(the money is out there) it is really to include them in my research for a history of the team and then to eventually donate them to the City of Frankfort,Kentucky museum. For me,the pleasure of owing them really is in sharing their history with others. Is there a museum/library that houses a collection of baseball cards ----that is open to the public to view?

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05-02-2005, 11:02 AM

Posted By: jay behrensIf you do a search on the Burdick collection on this site, you get a lot of pertinent information regarding museums and their views and how they handle baseball cards donated to them. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-02-2005, 11:04 AM

Posted By: richard lloydbaseball hall of fame has many on the 2nd floor...

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05-02-2005, 01:07 PM

Posted By: Gilbert Maines*

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05-02-2005, 01:26 PM

Posted By: JohnLeon I simply used Microsoft as a recognizable name vs. many of the stocks of companies you could have bought in 2000. Stocks aren’t the only things you can invest in IRA’s, real estate etc. There’s no doubt Leon has done well. But I’m sure Even he would have to admit not everyone does as well as he did. Are there other “Four Base Hits” Kelly cards I can invest in? Seeing as I believe he has the only one around it seems like a very limited investment opportunity for a guy like me. My point is not everyone can invest or is buying one-of-a-kind cards. For every guy like Leon there are 20 guys buying $30,000 1952 Topps Mantle’s and game used goods. Baseball card prices are also subjective and don’t really have a true set market value. Plus how many people here have bought forged real estate,fake IRA’s? or trimmed stocks? I wont argue that you can make some coin here and there and even make a killing once in a blue moon. But if people are out there buying up cards in the hopes of retiring early or using cards as replacement for traditional sound investing or are hoping to make a fortune. I really feel the bulk of these people will be very disappointed. I used the T206 auctions above because its something I follow. And there is a perfect example of an investment, which lost money. I would bet as of the past 4 yrs there are many more items that have lost money or broke even, rather than made money. Interesting to hear you thoughts. Maybe we can prove baseball cards are the next major moneymaker after all. Dick ANY person who bought ANY pre-war card in the 1970’s and or the 1980’s has made a killing. Those deals aren’t available to us anymore.

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05-02-2005, 02:01 PM

Posted By: Richard LloydI would think that main stream cards such as common t206, t205, 1952 topps...etc.. would not change in value alot over time..maybe +- several percent..and from an investment prespective not a good choice... However, regional food cards and pacific coast league cards have JUMPED ALOT.. to me, W-cards are very under valued and collectors will begin turning to them because of the high price of traditional main stream cards like OJ's,Cracker jacks and rare backs.. I also think Cuban cards will grow because of the limited number and awareness of them.. I am 80% collector and 20% investor but in order to do well as far as return, you need to buy the "CORRECT" cards that are undervalued and that will grow for the next 10-20 years... like my previous statement said, just collect the "RIGHT" stuff and time will take care of value down the road with a little luck.. I would "STRONGLY" agree that cards should not be your main form of retirment..its an added feature!!! or iceing on the cake.. If a collector has the attitude of how much is it worth the day after it is bought then he/she is not a collecotr but a dealer!! Best Dick

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05-02-2005, 02:10 PM

Posted By: DJWhen I purchase a card, I purchase it because I want it for my collection, but in the background, I know that when I finally do sell my collection, I should get a decent return on the original purchase. It's not like I'm buying something stupid that won't appreciate like my ex-fiance' who owned an $800 purse. When I see that purse, I think "Hmmm...I could buy two Ned Williamson Old Judges for that price!". What will her purse be worth in the future? It should also be noted that she thought 'cards were stupid...that it was just pieces of paper'. How can I live with someone with an $800 bag telling me this? You can't compare pre-war cards to cars, TV's, stereo's or anything that loses it's value shortly after the purchase and the money is never recovered. You have to look at cards the same way you look at artwork, stamps, coins, antiques and such. An investment can best be described as something that appreciates in value and if you look at a Beckett from 1980 and then a 1985 and then five years after the fact, cards hold their own and there is a steady increase: I.E: 1983 Beckett- T206 Honus Wagner $18,000 T206 Cy Young Portrait $25 T204 Ramly Set $7500 Mint N300 Mayo Hugh Duffy $125 Mint N172 Old Judge Charles Comisky $100 Mint 1991 Beckett- T206 Honus Wagner $125,000 T206 Cy Young Portrait $550 T204 Ramly Set $24,500 EX-MT N300 Mayo Hugh Duffy $600 EX-MT N172 Old Judge Charles Comisky $800 EX-Mt Amusing how 'Mint' was an option in the old days. I worked in a Stock brokerage for three years and I will tell you that there is little buyer confidence there at this moment. The 'bubble'(people who invested in companies like Global Crossing, CMGI, Cisco, Enron, Corning etc.) and fraud (can you compare trimmed cards to what happened to those Enron stock holders?) have caused 'paranoia' and people are looking to place money elsewhere. They figure that if they purchase $10,000 worth of these silly pieces of paper, that maybe in ten years, it will double in value. The problem lies in the fact that prices are so out of control right now (listen, the price guide is flying out the window) that it's hurting us 'die-hards' add to our collections. This has been my experience from talking to those who are paying through the nose for cards and who have removed funds form their portfolio. If I had a choice- $50K worth of cards or Microsoft, I would go for the cards to be honest with you. This isn't your grandfather's stock market anymore. But, will there be a pre-war 'bubble' in the horizon? DJ

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05-02-2005, 02:37 PM

Posted By: Texas TedI am amazed at how this thread has wound its way along into extremes. Once you mention the word investment it has quickly jumped into an attempt to get rich quick. My earlier post mentioned "diversification". I shifted some of the money out of high tech stocks and into cards (and mostly unsexy 50s cards at that), not as an investment with getting rich in mind, but merely as a hedge against a big drop. It was not unlike dumping dot com stocks and buying plain Jane Municipal bonds paying 2%. Well guess what? It happened. I was not looking for big investment gains, but loss avoidance. And I liked the cards I had also. I remember many years ago when I was considering buying a Miro print, the owner of the gallery told me to only buy art you like and never buy with the idea of making money. After all, if it loses value, you still have to look at it, and if you do, its only pleasant if you like it just for the art. Texas Ted Starting my third attempt at a second childhood.

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05-02-2005, 02:41 PM

Posted By: Judge DredDJ, You are going to be a closet collector that doesn't tell your wife (the girl with the $800 bag) what you just added to your collection. The way things go you will probably quietly hoard a lot of nice material and then when the stuff really pushes the envelope and prices go really crazy (as if they aren't already) you will decide to tell her about the little "investments" that you've made in card board. Within a short period of time the bubble will burst and you'll have a nice collection but not worth near as much as you figured. She'll then swing that $800 bag at you and hit you square in the forehead where it will promptly leave a huge mark in the shape of the metal logo which you so despise (most of us do). Do you think that the prices can get any "worse" for collectors? Do you think that there's going to be a huge influx of cash into the hobby? I keep thinking that it's already hit a peak. Perhaps that is just my wishful thinking. Actually I can't wait for the bubble to burst so that I can start picking up the material cheaper.

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05-02-2005, 02:46 PM

Posted By: leonSince day one I have always collected the obscure and rare and got luckey in that nowadays they seem to be worth a lot more than when bought. I absolutely DO agree with you that a lot of folks that don't know what the hell they are doing could/have come in and are buying "wrong". My cards are a percentage of my overall investing strategy, not all of it. When I first started ( a mere 8 years or so ago) I didn't think of them as an investment. I love baseball, collecting, and money <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> so they are a great fit for me. Ask Scott B how much I fret about that T205 Johnson I bought from him or John Spencer how much I was stressed over my E102 Cobby purchase. Then when I realized that it was always going to have to be big bucks for good cards, and they could be worth more in the future, it was ok. The wife took a few more years to be somewhat comfortable with it. She asked me yesterday how much I spent in the REA. I told here and she said "WHAT!!" and then went back to watching t.v. regards

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05-02-2005, 03:07 PM

Posted By: JohnI hear you DJ, but we also have to take our pre-war blinders off here. We are not the mainstream we are the minority. For every one of us who collects old judges for potential investment or just to collect in general there are 100’s if not 1000’s of people buying Sammy Sosa jerseys and cards. Why do these people buy these items? Because of the precedence’s we have set in the pre-war market. That old stuff is worth money, there for when this Sosa card is 40 yrs old it we worth as much as that 40 yr Mantle card. Millions and millions of dollars are spent in this hobby on new goods which do depreciate just like cars, stereo’s etc. The stuff that retains value for the most part A.K.A pre-war has a fatal flaw. There is not enough supply to fill the investing or collecting demand of today’s market (hence today’s prices). There is plenty of opportunities in investing be it stocks, real estate, 401k’s, IRA’s etc. In pre-war there is not. If pre-war baseball cards are such a perfect moneymaker, and so much safer and more profitable than any form of investing today. Why isn’t every person in America buying antiques? Most everything goes up in value with time or as it gets older, Stars Wars figures, clocks, furniture, cars, coins, glassware etc. Baseball cards aren’t alone here. All of these hobbies have had their dips too. I think ours is fast approaching. Dick mainstream or not actual rarity or availability of items has very little effect on price. Perfect case in point T206 Wagner vs. Leon’s “Four Base Hits” Kelly card, which is more valuable and more in demand.

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05-02-2005, 03:16 PM

Posted By: JohnLeon thanks for the response. I’m not trying to beat anyone up I too am a collector and have very little money invested in my collection. If and when I sell I plan to make some good money. I just think its very dangerous what we say, or insinuate about cards being such a great investment as a way of justifying or dirty little habit. It can sometimes bring in un-educated investors into what is being described as a fail-safe gold mine. This in turn drives up prices and may very well hurt the hobby.Everyone here can point out the good buys, but there have also been some bad ones too I’m sure of it. And Leon I too would take your “Four Base Hits” Kelly or Western Playground set over Microsoft any day. But I’m a collector. Not an investor.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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05-02-2005, 03:25 PM

Posted By: warshawlawand as you acquire the things life is made of (spouse, home and kids, for almost all of us), your ability to control what you do with your money shrinks. When I was single and living in a dumpy little apartment I had an income many times that of my costs. Now, I have a minimum nut to cover every month so large that I know that the first 90% of my income goes to that and that alone. Almost all of that money is consumed (although the mortgage payment could be viewed as a real estate investment), meaning it is paid out for things that we either eat, use or that have no real remaining market value after I buy them (I don't count garage sale type value as any value). What can I do with the remaining crumbs: 1. Consume it on luxuries 2. Invest it in something "safe" that will earn me maybe 4.5% a year, tops 3. Buy stocks and hope that the ones I choose are more Google and less Enron or Worldcom or Global Crossing or Tyco or...you get my drift. 4. Invest it in hard assets and hope they appreciate or at least hold value relative to inflation. I'd enjoy option #1 but at the end of the day would probably regret the consumption (some wise older folks in fact recently told me not to do that because they are now regretting it in their 70's). Option #2 won't lose my money but a single really good move in option #3 or #4 would do in 1 year what 10 years of option #2 does. Since I am relatively young, that's why every financial analyst preaches looking to go long when possible with an investment that has the best ratio of risk-reward that you can stand. So we are left with #3 and #4. My wife gambles in #3, heavily. I don't want to put the last bit into it too. That leaves hard assets, either real estate or chattel. I could buy income producing real estate, except that I don't want to take what little time I have to managing and maintaining income producing real estate--tangible hard assets never have broken toilets, they don't need to be evicted for non-payment of rent, they don't need maintenance--nor do I want to pay perpetually out of pocket for someone else to manage real estate. Plus, with a house I am already effectively "into" real estate more than I'd like to be (I wish I could put in a stop loss on my house value). So we are left with hard assets that don't need to be managed or maintained: art, gems, bullion, collectibles. Art is frought with fraud and unless you are dealing in masterpieces, it is extremely hard to recoup your investment because the market is controlled by a cartel of dealers and auctioneers who have most of the inventory and make the market. Diamonds/gems? Again, frought with fraud and controlled by a cartel that effectively sets the price by restricting supply. Bullion? I remember my father making a killing in gold in the late 1970's by buying and selling Krugerrands during an inflationary spike. I have often thought of buying gold instead of cards for the long term. But hard gold (not securitized gold, which is really just a variant on #3) only makes money in times of calamity. In other words, it is the ultimate timing-dependent asset. That leaves collectibles. I don't find other forms of collectibles to be interesting, so cards are it. Which cards, that's like choosing stocks. I've been remarkably successful over the years in picking what cards to buy for investment; I'd like to think it is because my enthusiasm for the task leads me to make good predictions.

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05-02-2005, 03:27 PM

Posted By: leonFYI I sold the Western Playground set.....it wasn't a good investment or anything (joke)...I do see your point about pre-war cards and the euphoria surrounding their surge in prices. It reminds me of back in '97-'98 when I bought stocks and they automatically went up. They never went down...it was like "if I buy Microsoft I should make 50% or more all of the time" which of course is a fallacy. So I do agree with you in that respect. Also, when I sold that Keefe G & B I took a $1400 loss....so there is a downside to this stuff too... very good points made. take care

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05-02-2005, 03:28 PM

Posted By: jay behrensStar Wars is a dead market, even with the new movie coming out. I recently sold a nice group of 14 figures on eBay that went for a whopping $17. 5 years ago, they would have gone for close to $100, if not more. I still have the Imperial Shuttle Tiburion and am scared to death to sell it because I fear what it might sell for. It used to be $1,000 piece, now, who knows. But yes, in general, various collectibles tend to appreciate over time. And they are always a good hedge against inflation. the best is advice is what I told everyone in the 80s and has been mentioned here a few times, buy what you like and love. If it goes up in value, great. If not, you still have something you love to look at and own. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-02-2005, 03:36 PM

Posted By: JohnI have a PSA 7 OC Imperial Shuttle Tiburion. That I wouldn't sell for all the money in the world.

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05-02-2005, 03:40 PM

Posted By: Richard Masson1980s cards are up to $0.19/lb. Learn what happened last time baseball cards were touted as an investment. Buy them to enjoy collecting them, nothing more or less.

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05-02-2005, 04:18 PM

Posted By: PaulAs the one who started this thread, I think it's my prerogative to try to get back to my original question. How many potential buyers are there for a $5K lot of vintage cards? For those of you picky about details, the lot includes a broad diversity of items (from Old Judges to Cubans to Goudeys) so that it will attract at least a passing interest from every vintage collector. (I know, 5K isn't enough to have that kind of diversity, but I think you get my point). Oh, and the lot has no PSA 8-10s, so we can exclude the condition obsessed investors from the calculation. How many collectors do we have out there? 100? 1000?

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05-02-2005, 04:20 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundLeon makes a great point about the market...a lot of people thought they were geniuses for buying JDSU or CSCO and making 100% per year when in fact they lucked into a raging bull market. Many people have a narrow view of the market and seem to believe that just because the Dow or Nasdaq hasn't done anything for years, that nothing has gone up. Those people have missed bull markets in high yield debt, commodities and commodity stocks, foreign stocks, Utilities, many restaurant stocks, etc. I have been investing and trading for a living for the past five years and can definitely say that it takes a hell of a lot of work in order to do it well. During the bubble years, too many people that didn't know what they were doing thought they could become rich by investing in garbage companies like DrKoop.com or TheGlobe.com - there was simply too much "dumb money" out there. If someone came to this board and announced that he or she was new to vintage cards and was now buying thousands of dollars worth of raw T206 Hall of Famers, they would likely be given friendly advice and also deservedly ridiculed. The experts on this board would ask the pertinent questions like whether the person could spot a reprint, a trimmed card, or whether they even knew how to properly grade and value a card. Stocks are the same way - if you don't know how to spot signs of fraud or how to do basic things like read a financial statement, then you are the equivalent of a baseball card collector who can't tell a T206 from a T207. As with any endeavor where your money is at risk, educating yourself is the best thing you can do.

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05-02-2005, 04:23 PM

Posted By: JohnPaul I think you may have a hard time getting an answer. We would have to know the financial status of all the collectors in the US to figure out who could afford to purchase the lot if they even wanted too. I’m not quite following where you’re going with this. Please help me out.

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05-02-2005, 04:28 PM

Posted By: JohnGreg well said my point exactly. This hobby if you look at from strictly an investment point of view is just as unstable as any other form of investing. Its not safer or better in any way. We argue that it is because all of us here have a passion about the stuff and very few of us would ever have the same passion about a stock in any particular company.

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05-02-2005, 04:31 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundRichard, that is one of the best comments ever on this board...I'm still laughing as I type this. I can just imagine them trading on the Chicago Merc too, right along with the pork bellies and cattle. "I need 1000 pounds of 80's Baseball Cards for June delivery" "Donruss, Topps, or Fleer?"

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05-02-2005, 04:34 PM

Posted By: JohnYeah Greg it’s a jungle out there I lost 23,000 pounds of Fleer to frost last year. Didn’t see that coming.

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05-02-2005, 04:37 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI lucked out. Rats chewed up all the 80s cards I had in the attic. The chewed up cards turned out to be great insulation which went a long way to lowering my heating bill. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-02-2005, 04:41 PM

Posted By: PaulI know there's no way to get an exact answer to my question. I was just looking for rough guesses on how many people you have seen drop that kind of money on a single lot of vintage cards. Based on what some others have said, it may actually be a huge number, since almost anyone can affort to buy a $5K lot of cards if they are willing to sell off most of them to pay for the few they really want. That was a possibility I hadn't really considered when I started this thread.

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05-02-2005, 05:17 PM

Posted By: Texas TedOne thing everybody is forgetting is that for all the money spent on these auctions, somebody is selling. How much of the money spent is "new" money, and how much is just proceeds from sales of stuff in the same auction, or the prior one? Texas Ted Starting my third attempt at a second childhood.

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05-02-2005, 05:18 PM

Posted By: DJThe $800 bag is long gone and I'm happy to say that. I am a collector but I'm also a realist. There will always come a point when you have to say 'it's time to let some stuff go'. Then you guys will start a thread here on 'The DJ Collection' (you bet those babies are getting slabbed with my name) and you can talk about how my Scrapps set is over $250,000 (this is the year 2060) and a thread will be started about how one person needs the Hanlon and another needs Welsh. I may have to start a thread here shortly about what the loved ones in our lives think of our obsessions and why we can start a thread on beloved vertical cards and get excited to win a piece of paper. I agree one hundred percent at some of the comments left after I left mine. I know a man who invested $3,000 on J.D Drew (L.A Dodgers slug) baseball cards and another person who thought they could retire on rare 'Beanie Babies'. I just can't take anything seriously as an 'investment' born into the market suddenly like this. What has happened to those who saw an upside on rookie cards of players like George Brett, Nolan Ryan, Reggie Jackson, Ken Griffey Jr. and weren't we paying like $500-800 for PSA9's of Mark McGwire in 1998? I think I saw one sell for $23 a few days ago on eBay. The way I look at it is that there is so much demand in pre-war baseball cards because it's so limited and more people (more people with money) are discovering it. Not everyone can own a Ty Cobb T206 with a Ty Cobb back and I bet there are hundreds and hundreds that can afford one with only a small amount out there and everytime one goes up for auction, those waiting will get another shot and cause the price to rise more. Either way, I hope the bubble does burst (not too much of a burst) so I can increase my rate of purchase. DJ P.S NO WAY IN HELL WILL I HAVE MY STUFF GRADED WITH A PERSONALIZED SLAB!

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05-02-2005, 06:28 PM

Posted By: barrysloateMight as well get my two cents in here. Investing in vintage cards has certainly proven profitable over the last several years and that is undeniable. However, I get a sense that prices in certain areas of the market have risen too drastically and much of it makes very little sense. There is a very deep market for inexpensive and medium priced vintage cards. But when you begin to see some of the astronomical prices that some cards attain- a quarter of a million dollars for a 1914 Babe Ruth card, for example-it makes you want to look a little deeper at why some have risen so dramatically. From my long experience in the hobby I'm not sure the "crazy" prices are always an accurate gauge of the market. I would rather look at cards that trade with some frequency and seem to attain strong prices consistently. These are what I refer to as the meat and potatoes of the hobby. But all overheated markets, as this one can reasonably be categorized, do eventually correct themselves and there is no question the card industry may be in the early stages of that. I'm not talking about a crash- I don't believe that will happen- but there are so many auctions with so many incredibly rare (or hyped as rare) items that at some point the market will just have to take a breather. Nothing goes up forever. There's nothing wrong with investing some of one's money in collectibles but they can and do go down and even some of the high flyers like Old Judge, tough e-cards, and others will not go up forever. I've seen many market dips over the years, and with the economy slowing down don't be surprised if in the not too distant future we will see a slowdown in our industry too. There is an incredible amount of money being channeled into collectibles but there are also many people cashing in and leaving the hobby. The baby boomers who started it all are getting older and many have gotten out. If too much material keeps hitting the market the supply and demand curve will shift and you may see more things out there than people can afford to buy. And with problems in the economy, my advise is not to get too carried away. And that is just one man's opinion.

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05-02-2005, 11:48 PM

Posted By: ElliotI think a lot of people are buying $10,000 dogs with two $5000 cats. Also, I think that when things turn they can turn quickly as dealers will not be as willing to hold on to their inventory when prices are falling.

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05-02-2005, 11:52 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsJust look at the second T206 Doyle auctioned by Mastro, after KO won his - huge drop in price w/o KO bidding and the card was a PSA 3 (while the one KO won for six figures was a PSA 2). At different dollar increments, you lose many potential bidders. $5k was brought up - when card(s) reach that level you lose a certain amount of bidders. Then at $10k you lose more, etc. etc. I still believe there are several cards hovering around $5k that are steals and should (and someday will) become $10k+ cards (just like the E98 Old Put Cobb Wesley purchased from me). The biggest risks I see are the cards such as the 1914 Ruth. When you get to price levels like that, tons of potential bidders are lost. However, with increasing incomes, these worst investments might not be all that bad. Anyone could turn a great investment into a bad one in vintage cards! This is done by clicking the bid button too many times. I guess the Texas Cattlemen are correct - "bought right is half sold"???

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05-03-2005, 06:31 AM

Posted By: Richard LLOYDI think the person who bought the "RUTH" card for 210000+ are NOT thinking investment..they are thinking what a COOL card..

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05-03-2005, 06:33 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeRichard are you nuts? I think alot of things are cool, houses, cars, boats, cards, women. But I don't just spend $210,000 on them. That was an investment purchase and probably a damn good one. Dan.

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05-03-2005, 06:41 AM

Posted By: Richard LLOYDThanks Dan... sorry, but do not aggree... if you are spending 210000 for a single cards then you are worth MILLIONS of dollars in investments and this is something you wanted!! why would some one worth millions buy a card for 210000 for investment... does not make sense to me.. it was bought bcause he/she can!! and loves cards ..

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05-03-2005, 06:42 AM

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05-03-2005, 06:44 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeI guess you have me on this one, as I do not have that much money and really can't say how one would feel buying that card for that much. I can say pop feels great knowing he got a whooping $1000.00 for one and let another go for $8000.00. Now those 2 would have been decent investments!

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05-03-2005, 06:50 AM

Posted By: Richard LLOYDThanks Dan... I just think the person who bought the card is not worried 10 years from now what the card is worth... I am guessing that the person who bought the card used his interest from his bank account to buy the card!! think about that!!

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05-03-2005, 06:51 AM

Posted By: dan mckeeI used my interest to buy my 1993 Cal Ripken refractor. Now I have to build up my interest again from scratch.

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05-03-2005, 06:57 AM

Posted By: PASJDWe are all just speculating unless we know the buyer, but I tend to agree with Richard, I think whoever plunked down a quarter million dollars for the card is not viewing it as an investment, i.e. that person did not make a rational decision to invest a quarter of a million in that card as opposed to other cards, or stocks, or antiques, or whatever. Now it may well turn out that even at that "insane" price the item will only appreciate, as the PSA 8 Wagner did. And the maxim that the rich get richer will once again be proven true. But I still think the subjective motivation was to own a unique card, not to invest.

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05-03-2005, 08:33 AM

Posted By: Bob DOne thing to keep in mind when "investing" in vintage cards is basic supply and demand. I think that both supply and demand will be affected significantly by the general aging of the population. Large numbers of people did not start collecting vintage cards till the late 70's/80's. Since then more and more people have entered the hobby, without a similar amount leaving the hobby, resulting in greater demand. Right now I'd venture a guess that a large number of collectors are in middle age, especially for vintage collectors. Over the next 10-30 years as these middle age collectors start selling off their collections for retirement or their heirs do so after they pass on; there will be 1) an increase in the number of vintage cards returning to the market and 2) less people looking to purchase those cards, unless the number of new younger collectors is large enough to compensate for the loss of the older generation. I don't see that happening.

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05-03-2005, 09:38 AM

Posted By: Donald JohnsonI'd say that statement is not necessarily true. Many of the collectors on this board for example are in their mid-late 30's.

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05-03-2005, 10:52 AM

Posted By: Josh K.To answer Paul's question from my own perspective, the most I have ever spent on any one card is about 800 (a few times). Though I can afford to spend 5k on a card if I wanted to, I doubt I ever will. Then again, when I first got into the hobby about a year and a half ago, I never thought I'd spend 500 on a card.

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05-03-2005, 11:07 AM

Posted By: Richard MassonThink about stamp collectors, once the primary collecting hobby for the generation before the baby boomers. Prices are still only a fraction of what they were in the 80s blowoff. Buy cards because you want them. They have limited liquidity, high transfer costs, and no intrinsic value.

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05-03-2005, 11:15 AM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyI have to agree with Donald on this one, there s a TON of new collectors out there between the ages of 25-35, I would venture to say that nearly a third of those on this forum fall into that age range. Many of these people remember collecting cards during the 1986-93 boom as kids, and now that they are establishing themselves with good jobs and have discretionary income they are looking to get back into cards. About cards as an investment, I believe that they absolutely can be investments. However at the same time there isn't (and this is purely my opinion) infinite room for them to continue going up. At some point, and I don't think it is TOO far off, the prices are going to start changing their course. Some areas will be more affected than others. The cards that are truly limited are going to retain their values more-so than those that are found in greater supply. After reading the thread a few weeks back about the number of people out there with complete or nearly complete sets of t206 cards out there, I got to thinking. This forum is only a SMALL percentage of the vintage collectors out there, and probably fairly represents a cross-section of the population of "die-hard" vintage card collectors out there. If there are that many "complete" t206 sets here, just imagine how many are really out there. I personally don't understand the draw to this set, based solely on the # for sale on ebay and everywhere else--they just aren't "rare" enough for my blood. I don't mean to freak anyone out or anything, but IF the market begins to waiver and people begin to sell their holdings, how many t206 cards are going to be flooding the market? This is just food for thought. I love this hobby as much or more than the next guy, but IF things ever start getting bad what it all boils down to is that what we collect are pieces of cardboard, which DON'T have any inherent value based solely on what they are. But the argument can also be made that the same holds true for any avenue of collecting/investing--if things get bad there is no absolute way of avoiding this, save investing in gold bars and starting your own personal Fort Knox. In the meantime keep doing what makes you happy, buy what gives you pleasure, even invest if that is what makes you happy (everyone here has "invested" in card that they thought they could sell for more later.) If the bottom falls out of the market, I know for one that I will still be around to pick up any extra pieces of cardboard people throw out. -Rhett

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05-03-2005, 11:27 AM

Posted By: barrysloateRichard, you have my undivided attention. And an interesting parallel: stamps have suffered because kids no longer get into stamp collecting the way the baby boomers did. And you know what- most of the younger kids I know are lukewarm about collecting baseball cards- there are many other things that are more enticing to them. Baseball cards have done great the last few years- the next few years is anybody's guess.

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05-03-2005, 11:40 AM

Posted By: Bob MarquetteJust as you should always buy the card, not the holder, you should only purchase cards that you like. I know this goes directly contra to the investment driven guys who post here, but I have always found that if you like a violet colored E94, it doesn't matter if it someday becomes worth less or anything at all. The collector in us buys the cards for their intrinsic and aesthetic appeal. That doesn't mean I won't buy cards to "flip" and use the profit to buy more cards but if the card market collapsed tomorrow, I will still be happy with my collection. It may be a naive and good old boy attitude but I'd rather have a vgex set of T205s than a T210 Jackson that I had to continually sweat about if it were dropping in value. Just my 2 cents. By the way the PCL market is NOT hot, so send me any nice Obaks, 1911 and 1912 Zeenuts and D311s you have, I'll find a good home for them...<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-03-2005, 11:42 AM

Posted By: Richard MassonIf the goal is to make investment returns, you want to buy when things are plentiful and ice cold and sell when they are scarce and in demand. We (the collective baby boomer WE) like baseball cards because collected them as kids and appreciate them. Kids today grew up with price guides and plastic sheets. As Tom Hanks said in BIG, "What's fun about a building?". When these kids grow up and have some discretionary income, will they go back and buy 80s rookie cards? Absolutely not. If I was in it for the money, I would buy beanie babies, put them in plastic, and stick them in the garage. They are plentiful, cheap and (except for the adults who got scammed) have many happy memories attached. The fact that this sounds like such a bad idea makes it a good one in the long run. My teenage son understands this concept, but he's a video game afficianado. We put together a run of all the classic Nintendo games (MIB) for very little dough. These kinds of items will be what the kids of today want tomorrow. Think about what our parents thought of our collecting baseball cards.

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05-03-2005, 12:19 PM

Posted By: warshawlawWe've had a long run of really good auctions where great stuff is changing hands at very high prices and the nattering nabobs of negativity here are calling it a bubble that's ready to burst. Sorry, but I don't see it. Take stocks as a parallel; they can turn from good to bad faster than Aunt Sally's chicken salad at an August picnic but no one says not to consider them investments because they are volatile. Everything is volatile. Some of what I am reading here is wishful thinking on the part of people who remember the "good, old days" of cheap rare cards and people handing you sacks of old cards and bidding them good riddance, and are being priced out of the market for the cards they want. Well, I wish we could jump into the way back machine and reverse some things (especially many aspects of the last 5 years), but it isn't going to happen. Some of what I am hearing is just plain sour grapes. If only it would crash, they say, then the "real" collectors could acquire the cards they want. Well, you know what: anyone who spends big bucks on a collection of major cards is a real collector as far as I am concerned. They may be new to the field, they may be rich, they may even (gasp) not like what you like to collect, but don't trash them simply because they outbid you. Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky were not collectors; Candiotti is, even if his collection isn't your cup of tea. Finally, for the finance types, there is simply no tit for tat comparison between cards and stocks, bonds, etc., because of the emotional attachment that collectors form with their collections They just are not the same and any intellectually honest evaluation of market prospects has to take into account the emotional factors involved. Cards are likely to be more sticky downwards in terms of pricing than a stock or bond because a collector can simply opt out of the market and hold his rare cards until he dies. The closest comparison as an investment is probably your house. If the market for your house sucks, you simply stay put; if it is booming, you may flirt with selling. If you really feel that the market has peaked, them you need to call up Mastro and sell out your collection. If that thought makes your stomach hurt, you are experiencing proof that the market for cards is not like the market for stocks or bonds and will not react the same to downturns.

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05-03-2005, 12:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloateRichard is absolutely right. Investors who get in now when everything is so overheated are certainly taking a lot of risk. If you bought ten years ago, there's nothing to discuss. If people are pouring money in for the first time in 2005, they will have to pay world's records for everything. That is not a safe entry level.

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05-03-2005, 12:24 PM

Posted By: craigI agree with Barry S. and Richard M. I spend a LOT of my disposable income on cards. Why? Because I LOVE this hobby and am passionate about cards and the history of baseball etc. I'm not naive enough to think of this as investing. Cards like stamps, beanie babies or fine art are collectibles. They have no intrinsic value and are only worth whatever someone is willing to pay. They shouldn't be mistaken for shares of a company, government bonds,real estate or even gold. I'm not risking my retirement, home, or children's college education on, as my wife would say, a piece of cardboard. I think the analogy with stamps is scary. There is no guarantee that the next generation will have any interest in spending thousands of their dollars on baseball cards.

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05-03-2005, 12:31 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundRichard, As someone who grew up on Nintendo and is still a video gamer, I can definitely see the reasoning behind your video game investment. I still have almost all of my old Nintendo games and continue to buy new ones when I discover a good game that I may have missed when I was a kid. One caveat however, is that the new discs used by the current systems have huge capacities, and it would be relatively easy for Nintendo to release a compilation disc of all their classic games for their new systems. Capcom recently did this with their Mega Man series, releasing a compilation of the NES Mega Man games (along with Mega Man 7 for SNES and Mega Man 8 for PS1) for PS2, GameCube, and XBox. I have all the NES Mega Man, but I tried the new version on my GameCube, and all the games still play just like they do on the old system. The release of that compilation disc has caused prices for Mega Man NES games to come down substantially from where they were on EBay a few years ago. There will certainly be people that will pay premiums for the original box and cartridge, but the collections of classic games are something to watch out for.

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05-03-2005, 01:09 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdMy take on this just came up in conversation between me and my grandfather when i showed him a couple cards.He asked the prices and then when i told him he said what are you going to do if these cards lose all their value and my honest response was "buy as many as i can and not worry about it,start collecting cards that i couldnt afford before they lost value" I definitely dont have alot of money but if my cards lost all their value id still have one of the coolest worthless pile of cardboard i could imagine. The market may drop on cards but i can never see them being worthless because theres a story behind each player thats on the cards and the sets they are in

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05-03-2005, 01:11 PM

Posted By: Richard MassonBoy are we off topic, but anyone buying a classic game mint sealed in the box is never going to open it anyway. It's a collectible, not to be used. First run Megaman, Zelda, Final Fantasy mint, sealed. They aren't expensive and there aren't many of them.

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05-03-2005, 01:37 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundPeople don't get emotionally attached to stocks? They certainly do if they follow the market day to day like people did in the bubble years. It took me six months (and the stock going from 80 to 60) to talk my brother into selling his Cisco...just the thought of selling it made his stomach hurt (just like your example of selling a card collection). At that point Cisco was the biggest company (by market cap) in the world and sported a 150 P/E. My brother had such an emotional attachment to the stock because he, like many others, was used to Cisco going up 100% a year and splitting. People definitely have more of an emotional attachment to cards, but don't fool yourself...people get emotionally attached to stocks as well, especially ones that have performed well for them.

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05-03-2005, 01:40 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundI definitely agree on the rarity issue...I have a few sealed games tucked away (maybe five), including a Final Fantasy and a Zelda. I can just see it now...Larry Fritsch selling reprint Zelda boxes and manuals. We did stray a bit from the topic...back to the discussion at hand.

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05-03-2005, 01:43 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback..

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05-03-2005, 04:51 PM

Posted By: warshawlawThe CSCO camp follower greedily expected the stock to go up and up and up. He didn't "love" the stock, merely the idea of its financial peformance. Collectors become emotionally attached to their items; as one person noted, if the market bottomed out, he'd just be able to buy more cards. Me too.

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05-03-2005, 05:49 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundAdam, There are definitely different emotions at play between stocks and cards. With stocks, the emotions of greed and fear can be incredibly powerful and can cause normally rational people to say things like "It's different this time" when greedy or capitulate and sell at the bottom of the market when fearful. I believe it was Warren Buffett who said that his best market advice was "To be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy". I agree with you though, that 95% of these crazy prices lately are not due to greed at all, just people who also enjoy the hobby but have more to spend than most of us. The emotional attachment to cards deals mostly with fond childhood memories, a love for baseball, etc, rather than greed. I'm sure it is a nice feeling for people to say "Gee, that E98 Connie Mack is worth about 5 times what I bought it for 10 years ago", but that isn't the driving force behind why they collect. I too, would welcome a correction in the vintage market, but it doesn't look to be in the cards (excuse the pun) anytime soon. Being able to buy twice the cards for the money I spend would be just fine with me. All the Best, Greg

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05-03-2005, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI agree with what Spiro Agnew said.

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05-03-2005, 10:48 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestDon't confuse your new dealer hat with your old collector/investor hat.

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05-03-2005, 10:49 PM

Posted By: tedI just want to be #1 and #100.... the answer to how much money is out there is very simple: A LOT.

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05-03-2005, 11:28 PM

Posted By: anonymoushunterdude..is that they provide one to experience the "thrill of the hunt", an age old primal instinct. Maybe that's why most women (nesters) don't get why we men (hunter/gatherers) enjoy picking through card shows and surfing high and low on the internet for our rare and treasured game. As much as I love my bloated collection of cards, I love the hunt even more. Now if I could just get on a "catch and release program" I'd be OK. ....and don't forget the addictive nature of card collecting.. that certainly adds fuel to the fire IMO.

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05-03-2005, 11:34 PM

Posted By: PaulWow! My first 100 entry thread.

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05-03-2005, 11:35 PM

Posted By: DJInteresting how this thread grew. A couple things. 1) This thread is at over 100. What was the largest thread count (sounds like I'm talking about expensive bed sheets) any of you can remember? 2) In 1987, I thought about purchasing unscratched lottery tickets. What do you think of that? Best of all, you can slab them...but the down side is that scratched ones could probably be covered up with some fancy black thick marker which will be like those who take a black marker to the edges of Mayo's or 1971 Topps cards. 3) Are we talking about rare video game cartridges in sealed form? What will an 'Excitebike' be worth in twenty years? Since we are talking about systems of the late eighties, has anyone seen where original Atari or Intellevision games in unopened packages bringing any $$ in the open or auction market? This has been a great thread. I don't agree with all of you...I actually think some of you need to be drug tested and I think that's the beauty of this forum. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> DJ

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05-04-2005, 12:15 AM

Posted By: JohnRhett; I here what your saying but I will say this once again rarity has very little to do with price. There are hundreds of one-of-a-kind items out there. But there is something as being to rare. If there are only one or 2 examples of something there is not enough supply to fill the demand. Like I said before Leon’s Kelly card is much more rare than any T206 Wagner but I will bet the farm even a beat up Wagner will go for more on the open market than the Kelly would go for. It’s sad yes, but there is something to be said for popularity. People will always pay top dollar for T206’s or 1952 Topps because they are able to collect them. If I want to start E107’s tomorrow I’m screwed unless I roll Scott B. in the parking lot of a show.

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05-04-2005, 03:02 AM

Posted By: jay behrensHomer Simpson said it best, "My house if full of valuable worthless junk." Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-04-2005, 05:20 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAnd Homer was also the one who was going through the five-cents-each junk box at a flea market and found Superman #1, a copy of the Declaration of Independence, a sheet of upside-down jenny airmail stamps- and passed on them all. Remember that episode?

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05-04-2005, 07:41 AM

Posted By: leonDon't dis on my Kelly <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I agree that a T206 Wagner might be worth more but probably not a beat to sh** one. Yes, a nice 2 would be, but probably not a ragged out one...but then again when was the last time you saw a Kelly FBH sold publicly? regards

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05-04-2005, 08:17 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisYou can NEVER go wrong if you always Remember the mantra... which also happens to be a palindrome to make it EASIER to remember: CWYWC Collect What YOU Wanna Collect!!!!!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-04-2005, 09:28 AM

Posted By: Texas TedHe was the cowboy on TV years ago with the business card that said: "HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL". Texas Ted Starting my third attempt at a second childhood.

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05-04-2005, 10:11 AM

Posted By: andy beckerbarry- what were people paying ten years ago for cards/memorabilia? weren't THOSE record prices too? i understand the business cycle....but haven't prices escalated since...well, since day one?? when was the last "card" market correction? the copeland sale? the error boom of the 1980's? i'm asking these questions, frankly, because to me you sound like alan greenspan...i'm just waiting for "irrational exuberance" to be posted

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05-04-2005, 10:26 AM

Posted By: Richard MassonBut the last major correction in vintage cards was 1988-91 or thereabouts. Prices declined, but supply dried up. The Copeland auction was during that time (in fact the run up in prices can probably be partially attributed to his aggressive purchasing). Absent the slabbing phenomenae, 1950s and 1960s cards are still in a funk. Nice VG-EX cards can be had relatively cheaply. Clean Topps sets from the era are very affordable. There is plenty of product to meet collector demand. A correction in vintage prices is inevitable at some point, but it will effect lower grade and readily available material (think T cards and common E cards). Very high grade and very rare stuff won't trade at lower prices, unless the owner is a distressed seller.

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05-04-2005, 11:46 AM

Posted By: john/z28jdThe only problem with Richards thought and Jay Behrens mentioned this before is that you dont know how many of these pre-ww1 cards will be lost due to attrition.Theres literally thousands of them in the mail each day that have a chance to get lost,cards could get thrown out by mistake,lost during natural disasters or fires,or even buried with a collector who cherished the cards his whole life.They havent made these cards for over 85 years so they arent getting any more common obviously.Thanks in part to the popularity of ebay the chances of something getting attritionized(i dont think thats a word) is even greater than just 5 years ago We dont expect this predicted downtime anytime within the next couple years so even 10 years down the road if the amount of collectors drops the supply will inevitably be lower anyway so the prices wont be as affected. I think cards will always hold some sort of significant value just because of the players on there.People root for certain teams and will want to collect older cards,hall of famers and high grades(not graded per se) will always have value.All the players tho have stats to back them up and history behind them.Plus theres always people who will collect guys from their hometown,relatives or people with the same last name,even if they dont actually collect the sets.

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05-04-2005, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Richard Massonis the paper drives during world war II. Comics printed by the hundreds of thousands were tossed resulting in great scarcity today. Most key books from the 1930s have fewer than 100 surviving copies. Baseball cards fall into the same category, although less so. I also think you are greatly overestimating the potential attrition today. Virtually all the supply is now above ground. Everyone knows that old baseball cards are worth something and shouldn't be thrown away. Finds like the Oregon find and the recent Zeenut cache are becoming increasingly rare. Except for Tango Eggs Jennings, supply is what it is.

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05-04-2005, 12:07 PM

Posted By: Richard LloydThanks for saying ATTRITION!!! I had said this about 60 posts ago and the supply of cards will drop.. It has to!!. obviously mail, fire, lost or stolen..ect...If you think its hard finding certin cards NOW just think 10-20 years from now.. I try to get'em while I can!!! the values will hold and grow...at what rate!?? nobody knows..but past history strongly says they will grow.. Best

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05-04-2005, 12:40 PM

Posted By: andy beckeri agree with you richard. but i think the "copeland correction" was just that....a correction on very high end, highly publicized material. regarding the decrease in 50's and 60's material...i think that's ebay. soooooo much more product became available...and i think you are correct, it's still undervalued.

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05-04-2005, 12:43 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdWhile im sure there isnt many cards getting throw out by people who dont know the worth,that isnt what i meant by thrown out.All you need is a card getting put in the wrong place near something thats going to be thrown out and its gone.Theres tons of other ways,little kids getting their hands on them,pets,ex-wives throwing them out to spite their husband.Theres no gaurd in place to watch every single pre-ww1 baseball card so things happen.I was just giving broad examples,but i couldve said cards lost during moving from house to house or dealers losing cards going from stores to shows. I think the main culprit is the thousands of cards that are in the mail each week.Even if an average of one or 2 cards got lost a day from any of these things youre eventually going to notice a lower supply which will in turn make up for less collectors should there even be less collectors.I did say 10 years from now as my example.Unless theres a HUGE collection thats documented lost to a fire/natural disaster then you wont notice this lower supply happen anytime soon. Which leads me to the main point, attrition is inevitable no matter what you do.Every person isnt careful with cards and not every person who inherits cards knows what they have or takes care of them.Just because we know cards values doesnt mean some person is going to see an old piece of cardboard with a cartoon drawing of a baseball player they never heard of and assume its worth something

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05-04-2005, 01:21 PM

Posted By: JohnLeon, I would never rag on your Kelly. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/113.gif"> I would take your Kelly over a Wagner any day. This from a guy who’s easily a T206 junkie. I also was referring too the recent 2 it was pretty beat. There I said it, oh that’s right I went there bring it on Riggins!<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/-44.gif"> P.S. Don’t ever sell your Kelly. That’s all I need is yet another card I have drooled over being sold that I cant afford. Between the last few auctions I’m getting depressed.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif">

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05-04-2005, 01:46 PM

Posted By: AnonymousYes, attrition will occur but we are talking about a very low percentage. 20, 30 years from now the collectors who are 40-70 are going to pass away to the big diamond in the sky. Their heirs are going to sell the cards at "whatever price" they can get. This has never happened to a large segment of the collecting populace. In the 80's, 90's, 00's we've had new generations of collectors come in and compete for the relative stable amount of vintage cards. We've not had a similar drop off mainly because a lot less people born between 1900-1930 collected cards. This will change in the future. It's nothing we'll notice for a while, but it will happen and unless there is a similar influx of new collectors (who are in diapers now) there could be a glut of cards.

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05-04-2005, 01:53 PM

Posted By: warshawlawI feel that the lower and mid-grade stuff will hold its value better than the superhighgrade slabby stuff. The more an item costs the thinner the market for it. VG T206 HOFers may not set records but they don't decline much either because so many people pick them to start with. One of the examples up there in this thread was someone who ate **** on a couple of slabbed high grade PSA T206 cards. Doesn't surprise me. The market for those is basically the few out there who are doing the set registry thing. If they don't happen to want the card, pop goes the weasel. I decided a long time ago to buy 10 vg-ex HOFers instead of one nm-mt one and I've never looked back.

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05-04-2005, 02:07 PM

Posted By: barrysloateTruth is none of us know for sure what the future will bring regarding price levels on vintage cards. We're just guessing- educated guesses to be sure- but who can predict the unknown. Could anyone predict terrorists could take down the twin towers? Nobody did, but it happened. Vintage cards are extremely popular right now but there are numerous signs that our economy isn't in great shape. It's quite possible people will find other priorities than baseball cards in tougher times. Nothing's a sure thing, not even a Four Base Hits of Kelly or a 1914 Babe Ruth. They will always be great rarities, but no guarantee they will always be worth equal or more than what they are today.

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05-04-2005, 02:32 PM

Posted By: warshawlawyes, but not anyone working for dubya <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-04-2005, 02:40 PM

Posted By: Anonymous i'm an old time collector back into the hobby so here's a thought....has the pro grading services driven the prices up to the levels ,for all cards,they presently are.at fort washington mid grade t206 hof sold for 50%-75% graded as opposed to raw.many buy raw get ir graded then jack up the price.great for short term profit but what happens 10-20 years down the road.will all 3 of the grading companies exist then?what happens if psa closes house for some reason..perhaps a grading scandal on a very high end card etc.what happens to the inflated graded card prices for psa's? i know its not prewar but i recently saw a 1971 munson psa 9 for$4000.commons $75-100.thats a bubble waiting to burst. i collected t-cards back in the 80's and i miss the days of buying hof's in nice shape for less then $100. a newbies thought. scott

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05-04-2005, 02:52 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdI think the main thing is what Barry said,that you cant predict what will happen,altho attrition is a safe bet <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> So basically collecting what you want is the way to go.I collect only so as soon as i have a card it has no monetary value as far as im concerned.I'll worry about value if i ever have to sell the cards You never know,some billionaire who collected cards as a kid and always wanted old cards might decide that hes going to buy as much as possible,then the actual collectors are all screwed

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05-04-2005, 02:52 PM

Posted By: Bob MarquetteOne thing I have noticed is a steady increase in the number of what I call "long term collectors," by that I mean guys who are buying up caramel and tobacco cards for their own personal collections and they never again see the light of day, or at least won't for many, many years. You used to see more buying of vintage cards and then a couple of years later those cards were being sold as the buyer grew tired of them. I don't see that much anymore. You see "flipping," guys buying low and selling high for a profit, but many of these people are collectors, plowing their profits back in to more cards, rather than using the profit to buy non-card related items.

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05-04-2005, 06:47 PM

Posted By: barrysloateBob- I think you will still see a number of these collectors who say they will never sell their vintage cards part with them eventually. Right now it does seem like they are all being socked away, but that could change. Among the positive signs in today's market is that there are a tremendous number of buyers and sellers. It's not tipped in anybody's favor. There is tons of stuff out there and no shortage of takers. That's a fluid market. But down the road the balance may shift one way or the other.

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05-05-2005, 09:12 AM

Posted By: Josh<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050505/en_nm/arts_auction_dc" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050505/en_nm/arts_auction_dc</a>

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05-05-2005, 09:35 AM

Posted By: Gilbert MainesStoring a statue in a vault for eighty years is not my idea of the way to enjoy 27+ million dollars of value. Lets see .... first Id buy - a hot pastrami sandwich with a good pickle and a cold beer. Then another. Then Id skip the pickle and sandwich.

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05-05-2005, 11:20 AM

Posted By: jay behrensConsidering the staute was made in the 20s, that means whoever owned most likley was the original owner, didn't pay much for it and say unnoticed until recently. Too bad old farm equipment isn't like that. My family would be rich, rather than poor farmers. Jay I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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05-05-2005, 01:01 PM

Posted By: warshawlawAnyone who wants my SGC 92 can have it for $1,000 or straight up for a vg or better Cobb T205-T206 (any one, SGC slabbed). I'll even throw in the shipping! Up hill, both ways <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Honestly, these set registry guys are a mite too cookoo for me. I am generally one of those "bury it with me" types but I can be tempted by a good enough offer, especially if I have another item on the radar screen that I want even more. One such occasion happened recently; I ended up parting with a very prized card to pay for another one that I wanted more. That rarely happens, though. I'm curious: do you mentally divide your collection (like kids do) into trading cards and keepers? I know I do.

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05-05-2005, 03:58 PM

Posted By: DJ Goodness this is good therapy. I have to admit, I mentally divide my collection into like three groups. 1) Emergency Group. The cards I have to sell quickly in case of an emergency. 2) The College Fund. Cards I will probably sell in ten years for my kids college. The kid's in trouble. Can you say Community College at this rate? 3) Stuff I will be buried with. Please, no one attempt to dig me up. That's simply wrong and 'gross'. DJ

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05-05-2005, 06:39 PM

Posted By: john/z28jdI got 3 groups of cards too 1-cards i dont want to sell 2-cards i wont sell 3-cards that are permanently off the market Most of my cards are in group 2 till i retire which at this rate will be 2055,then they either will go in group 1 or 3 depending on how many baseball games and trips to cooperstown i plan on making

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05-05-2005, 09:36 PM

Posted By: Juliemy bod. The University of California Medical School at San Francisco is going to mess with it. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/Smiles_smiley_62_prv.gif"> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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05-05-2005, 09:39 PM

Posted By: Scott Forrestthanks for that visual.

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05-05-2005, 11:08 PM

Posted By: vetekbobWhat a wonderful thread this is. It has certainly gotten the synaptic juices flowing for sure. If this thread keeps going like it is we will have to come out with a two volume dvd disc set lol not that that would be a bad thing mind you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> There is one thing that I have noticed that hasnt been brought to light as it were and if it has then I have missed it and my appologies and that is yes there is monetary value in pre-war cards today whether you are a diehard collector,an investor without real personal attachment or what have you but to me the most important aspect in what we call the hobby of card collecting is the "historical record" of life as we knew it then as the collective group we call the human race. Yes I am a diehard collector of cards and yes I collect them for the other reason as well howbeit to a much smaller scale and intent but I also collect cards for the legacy that passed before me and one that in whatever small way I was a part of when I have passed this earth. We know what we know about baseballs history and all that that entails because people like each one of us shared a passion not only for the game of baseball but even more so a passion for life and all the little nuances of day to day life back then and I feel that it is still with us today in collecting pieces of the past like we do. Each one of us as individuals and as collectors collectively are helping to pass on to the next generation a piece of ourselves in who we were, what we cared about, what we believed in, and what we stood for not just about the game of baseball but about society as a whole and its driving force in each of our lives and to me that is a legacy that means so much more to me than how much I may have paid for a card, or whatever collectible I saved. Maybe some of us collect cards and or other collectibles because to us they represent a time when life didnt seem so robotic and chaotic and the game baseball was so much more than just a game, it represented and in some small miniscule way helped to define the social isms that we are still growing in and working toward today as a collective body of people. Baseball cards to me personally represent a portal in time that someone before me saved and in looking at the card or cards I can travel back in time in my mind even if for a moment and smile in wonderment inside myself wondering what it would be like to have seen, talked with, or played with the legacies of our past, wondering what little tidbit or wisdom they might would share with me if they could. I have been somewhat concerned about the increasing prices of cards and what that may mean for me as a collector but not "solely" in the sense of wanting to complete a certain set but rather my concern is what are we losing inside ourselves and as collectors if we allow ourselves to go blind to just the dollars paid and or the artistry of a card or cards as we all can fall prey to at times. To me, babseball in its true essence embodies the heart and soul of a person striving to do their best for themselves and at the same time working together for a common goal. I think it is pertinent and prudent to ask the question that started this thread in the first place for I feel it ask each one of us to look within as to what is truly important in our lives and causes us to ask ourselves, what kind of legacy are we leaving for the next generation that may find one of our cherished cards and not know what it truly meant when baseball was more than a nine inning game and life was more than just how much money players made back then or the prices each of us paid for our cards. Robert basicgreatguy@hotmail.com