1947 Bond Bread questions [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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04-02-2005, 04:29 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisThere was talk on the "1949 Leaf" thread about several cards from the 1947 Bond Bread set that might be considered "rookie cards" by some collectors. Can some of you gurus please answer these questions for a guy who knows nothing much about the set: 1) Where was "Bond Bread" sold? Was this a "local" issue only sold in a tiny market...or was Bond Bread sold all across the country?? 2) Are the backs of these cards blank...or more specifically, do they have anything at all that definitively dates them to 1947 (such as the stats from 1946, etc.)?? 3) Assuming the backs cannot date the cards, what is it about the cards that allows ANYONE to date them back to 1947? Are their players on teams for whom they no longer played in 1948?? 4) Jackie Robinson debuted on opening day of 1947 (April 15)... so the cards must have been printed some time later than this in 1947 since the set includes Robinson in his Dodger blues. IN FACT, there is an entire SUBSET in the Bond Bread set that features SEVERAL pictures of Jackie Robinson doing things that happened during the 1947 season. Again, WHY is this set dated to 1947 (presumably late-1947) instead of 1948 or 1949?? 5) How long did Bond Bread exist? There is only ONE set of these cards... and surely they sold bread for more than one year...so hopefully someone can give us some FACTS to help date this set for certain. **Hopefully this set isn't dated 1947 just because Mr. Lemke once thought he heard someone opine that it was out of his distant childhood memory. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-02-2005, 04:40 PM

Posted By: WesleyThe second card below talks about Jackie's baseball statistics only up to 1946. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1112488624.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1112488680.JPG">

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04-02-2005, 04:44 PM

Posted By: David Vargha(Seller changed link I was "hot-linked" to) DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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04-02-2005, 04:58 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisOK, so we know that the cards had to have been issued after Opening Day 1947 in order to have the photographs of Robinson with the Dodgers... but the back that one card DOES seem to indicate that they were printed before the 1947 season ended (or they would have included his 1947 stats as well). Please keep the info coming!

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04-02-2005, 05:13 PM

Posted By: Josh K.could any of those pics have been taken during a spring training game rather than after the start of the season?

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04-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Posted By: barrysloateThey were available in Brooklyn only and I believe the African American community was their target audience. As such, its limited distribution accounts for its scarcity.

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04-02-2005, 05:18 PM

Posted By: JulieDodgers' stuff added later--if Mayo could do it in 1895, I'm sure Bond Bread could so it in '46 ('47?)

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04-02-2005, 05:30 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI don't think so Julie, because the one Robinson card that is shown in the 2005 "big book" shows him trotting home inside a VERY BIG stadium with an upper deck and bunting in the background. Montreal couldn't even get that big of a baseball following in the 21st century!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Based on what BARRY provided about this being a very regional issue (Brooklyn) perhaps targeted at African-Americans, I think they probably got a few shots of Jackie in April or May and ran as quick as possible to get something out there to sell their bread while the iron was hot. Also, now that I know this about the small area of distribution... I see why there are a lot of people who do not consider these to be Robinson's real rookie cards, since they could NOT have been bought and collected by kids in 99.99% of the Country. I think I will still have to go with the 1948 Bowmans and the 1949 Leafs as the first "real" sets issued after WWII, since they were both distributed NATIONALLY (like their 1933-1934 Goudey and 1939-1941 Play Ball predecessors).

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04-02-2005, 05:40 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisBarry: Did you mean that only the "Jackie Robinson subset" was distributed solely in the Brooklyn market...or are you speaking about the ENTIRE 1947 Bond Bread set of 48 cards (with Robinson being card #37)?? I guess it would make sense that they printed the entire set for ALL of Brooklyn... and then printed the "subset" for the African-American Brooklynites? If the ENTIRE set of 48 cards was distributed Nationally... then card #37 would indeed be Jackie Robinson's rookie card. However, since there would NEVER have been any debate about this issue if THAT was the case... I assume the entire 48 card set was only distributed in Brooklyn?

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04-02-2005, 05:41 PM

Posted By: WesleyJackie Robinson 1946 Parade Sportive 1946 Parade Sportive 1946 Team Poto 1947 Bond Bread Set (13) 1947 Dodgers Team Issue 1947 Fleetwood Slacks 1947 Homogenized Bond 1947 R346 Blue Tint 36 1948 Dodgers Team Issue 1948 Swell Sports Thrills 3 1948-49 Leaf 79 1949 Bowman 50 1949 Eureka Sportstamps 49 But everyone should collect whatever cards they feel most comfortable with.

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04-02-2005, 05:43 PM

Posted By: barrysloateExcellent point Hal. It's quite possible that virtually no one in the country even knew they existed during their short run. Here's a good story for you: In the mid 1980's, I got a call from someone in Brooklyn who said his parents had died and when he went through their belongings he found a small stack of them in a box, about ten or so as I recall. I bought them all, but nearly every one of them was the same pose. I forget which but I know that a single card is much more common than all the others, so anyone who is familiar with the set could tell me which one it was. The only find of those I ever had but of course they came from Brooklyn (the seller happened to be white, but I really do think they were found mostly in the black neighborhoods). That gives you an idea of just how regionally they were distributed.

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04-02-2005, 05:45 PM

Posted By: barrysloateHal, You may be confusing it with the Homogenized bread, the one that David Festberg had about a million of. The Jackie Robinson set pictured only him. The examples scanned in this thread are from that set.

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04-02-2005, 06:02 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisBarry - you are correct. My bad. The 2005 "big book" calls them "1947 Bond Bread" in the big bold title... but the fine print clarifies that this set was issued by HOMOGENIZED BOND Bread. I didn't know there was a difference... until you just pointed it out. Apparently Festberg had 100,000 of these because there were 100,000 of these REPRINTED in the 1990's, huh? That's what the "big book" says. --------------------------- OK, so then I must ask the follow-up question: Assuming there are some GENUINE Jackie Robinson cards from this "Homogenized Bond Bread" set (in which he is card #37) out there... how nationally was IT distributed and how do we know IT is from 1947? Do those backs have any dating information?

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04-02-2005, 06:06 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisOK, I am confused. The cards all pictured above show a loaf of bread that says "HOMOGENIZED BOND" on it!! So isn't the "Bond Bread" company that issued the "Jackie Robinson Set" the SAME company that issued the 48 card set??? ------------------------ Can someone please post the front and back of a 1947 Bond Bread card that does NOT feature Jackie Robinson on the FRONT??? THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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04-02-2005, 06:11 PM

Posted By: barrysloateIt is a bit confusing. The ones pictured are relatively rare. The 48 card set is common and an enormous hoard of them was bought by Festberg- he was selling singles and complete sets for years. I don't know the distribution of that set, but would guess it was national. Jackie was a god in black neighborhoods, especially in Brooklyn, so I think the subset of Jackie Robonson cards was printed in relatively small numbers for a specific target audience.

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04-02-2005, 06:13 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisWell, if the "Homogenized" Bond Bread 48-card set was indeed distributed nationally... then card #37 has to be Robinson's rookie. ------------------------ Does anyone have scans of the FRONT and BACK of Card #37 from the 48-card set??? PLEASE?

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04-02-2005, 06:18 PM

Posted By: PASJDAnother Talmudic inquiry it seems. Barry and I were joking about OCD before, but we may have a legitimate sufferer in our friend Hal, as exhibited by his perhaps quixotic quest for the "truth" about what is and what is not a "real" rookie card. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Hal, I hope you figure all this out to your satisfaction, but I have the sense that in the end it may all be somewhat subjective and even arbitrary.

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04-02-2005, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisHere is what the Talmud has revealed thus far: The ORIGINAL set of 48 cards were distributed by "Homogenized Bond Bread" with ROUNDED CORNERS and blank backs. In the 1980's, a VERY LARGE quanity of REPRINTS appeared on the market... but these all had SQUARE CORNERS and blank backs. SO... there is nothing on the back of these card to specifically date them to 1947... and since the set includes Jackie Robinson it must have been printed sometime later than Opening Day 1947. To date, PSA has only graded ONE CARD from the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set... a Ted Williams card with rounded corners.

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04-02-2005, 06:31 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisHere is one of the REPRINT cards that came with SQUARE corners, but you can see that someone has TRIED unsuccessfully to cut the corners to make them APPEAR rounded: <img src="http://www.csauctions.com/images/march2005auctio/47bondrobinson278016.JPG">

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04-02-2005, 06:33 PM

Posted By: PASJD<a href="http://www.geocities.com/chrisstufflestreet/1947hb.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.geocities.com/chrisstufflestreet/1947hb.html</a>

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04-02-2005, 06:40 PM

Posted By: PASJDSome of the text is printed for ease of reading. Many Hall of Famers in the set predating their "rookie" cards, apparently, not just Jackie. "They are found with either square or rounded corners (hobby publications do not speculate about why), and backs are blank. It has been suggested that these cards were distributed separately from the company's loves of bread, since the cards are rarely found with tell-tale signs of damage caused by the odd shape of bread. Some collectors refer to the set as "Homogenized Bond Bread," and that designation gets this set confused with the 1947 Bond Bread set. Both sets feature a smilar design and are the same size. Bond Bread cards also have rounded corners. Both sets feature Jackie Robinson cards, however, there is advertising on the back of Bond Bread cards. The biggest difference is that while all 13 of the cards in the Bond Bread set feature Robinson, he is only one of 48 subjects in the Homogenized set. The set features 44 baseball players and four boxers. Twelve of the 44 baseball players in the set are Hall of Famers, and the cards of Yogi Berra, Ralph Kiner, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Jackie Robinson and Enos Slughter predate the Bowman and Leaf cards called "rookie cards" by some collectors. Despite the historical significance of the set and the attractive cards, they haven't really caught on with collectors. There are some known reprints floating around the hobby -- some "graded" by unscrupulous and little-known companies -- while a large cache of twenty-four of the set's cards discoverd in the 1980s keeps these cards easily found in hobby circles."

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04-02-2005, 06:51 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisPeter: I saw that, and while most hobby publications may not "speculate" as to why there are some out there with square corners... Bob Lemke doesn't pull any punches in his 2005 version of the big book. He makes it very clear that the cards originally came with ONLY the rounded corners. BUT... if someone can produce a 1947 Bond Bread card #37 (like the one shown above) with GENUINE rounded corners... then it would certainly be Jackie's rookie card. ------------------------- HOWEVER.... Mr. Lemke shows in his book the 24 cards in the set that have NEVER shown up with the counterfeit SQUARE corners... and Jackie is NOT one of them. Accordingly... it is entirely possible that ALL of the Jackie Robinson cards from this set were REPRINTS made in the early 1980's. What we need is a checklist for this set from some hobby magazine from 1975 to see which cards were listed for the set back then. It may be that only 24 cards existed... and then 24 more were ADDED to the checklist when they were thought to have been "discovered" in the 1980's... but in fact they were NOT REAL. We do know that only 24 cards showed up with SQUARE corners in the 1980's. What we do NOT know is if ANY of those 24 cards EXISTED with round corners prior to that date. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> ------------------------ Just seems very strange that NOBODY has had a GENUINE Jackie Robinson card #37 from this set slabbed by PSA if it is such a valuable and historical card. Makes it seem like NONE of his cards from this set pass the PSA test. Hmmmmmmmmm.

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04-02-2005, 07:08 PM

Posted By: PASJDKit Young has a Musial on his website with square corners. He has been around a long time, maybe you should ask him. <a href="http://www.kityoung.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=66469&Category_Code=BROIALL" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.kityoung.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=66469&Category_Code=BROIALL</a>

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04-02-2005, 07:09 PM

Posted By: Andy BaranHal, I have a 1947 Bond Bread card of Sid Gordon (spelled Cid) on the card. It is one of the cards that was not reprinted, and can not be found with square corners. It also has period scrapbook removal on the back, so I know it is legitimate. The reason that I am writing this is that the rounded corners are hand cut. It is not a clean factory rounded corner like you can find on other sets. I would bet this would be the same for all of the authentic bond cards, which unfortunately would make it easy to take a reprint and make it look authentic.

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04-02-2005, 07:12 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisWhat's he going to do, Peter -- admit that he is trying to sell a reprint? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I need to hear something from the guys who were collecting these cards BEFORE the 1980's... like Lipsett and others. Surely they would know if a Jackie Robinson card like this with rounded corners had EVER been seen from 1947 to 1980. Barry: Got anyone you can turn to for these answers?

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04-02-2005, 07:16 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisThanks Andy! No wonder PSA won't grade them ... they probably ALL look "hand-cut" and they shy away from that stuff. You and I know this from our E107 Lajoie Type II experience. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> SO... I guess the Robinson is his rookie... but there is a BIG RISK in buying one that you are buying a REPRINT. SCARY. No wonder most people gravitate towards the safer Leaf and Bowman cards.

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04-02-2005, 07:21 PM

Posted By: PASJDHas anyone checked the SGC population report?

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04-02-2005, 07:24 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI can't get it to open. Haven't been able to for days. Can anyone else?

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04-02-2005, 07:26 PM

Posted By: AnonymousHas it been definitively proven that the homogenized bond bread cards found in the 1980's were reprints? I didn't think it had been and thought someone from this board was going to try to compare the square edge cards to the "originals" to see if they help see printing differences. Adam

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04-02-2005, 07:46 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisI would do it Adam... but I don't have a square OR a round version. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> CAN SOMEONE VOLUNTEER??? We need to have one of the GENUINE round corner cards for comparison... so it has to be one of the 24 cards that did NOT show up in the 1980's. Lemke indicates these original cards with the (SP) designation in his book. If anyone has one of these.... maybe we can find someone with a SQUARE corner card and get them together for some serious examination by an expert?? Please?

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04-02-2005, 07:50 PM

Posted By: PASJDI bet Dave Bushing would volunteer his expertise. EDITED TO ADD On a serious note, Hal, are any of the ones on Kit Young's website ones that did not "show up" in the 1980's?

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04-02-2005, 08:13 PM

Posted By: PASJDHmmmm......... <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5174755831&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5174755831&rd=1</a>

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04-02-2005, 08:25 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisPeter: Musial definitely showed up in the 1980's... which is obvious from the square corners on the one Kit Young has for sale. His Bob Feller also showed up in the 1980's... and it has square corners. His Ted Williams also showed up in the 1980's... and it has square corners. SO..... in a nutshell, Kit Young doesn't have ANY of the "Original 24" cards for sale.

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04-02-2005, 08:34 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisHere is more proof that these REPRINTS cannot get graded by REPUTABLE grading companies. This one is on EBAY now: <img src="http://i20.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/c1/8f/e4_1_b.JPG">

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04-02-2005, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisHere is another SQUARE Robinson that sold recently: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5170397283&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5170397283&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW</a>

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04-02-2005, 10:02 PM

Posted By: davidcycleback.

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04-03-2005, 07:29 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisDoes ANYONE have a 1947 Homogenized Bread card that was graded by SGC? Not one of the Robinson subset, but one from the 24 (or 48) player set? SGC's pop report is not working.

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04-03-2005, 07:31 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI do not think the square cornered cards are reprints. First, the selection of players is bizarre if they are reprints. Many of them are common duds. Second, looking at the cards under a magnifier, they show none of the signs of being second generation screens or prints from the originals, so if they are reprints, they are made with the original plates. Third, they feature the same stock as the originals. Fourth, they surfaced before reprinting was a problem and sold for relatively little, so where is the profit? My suspicion is that the original issue went through a cutting process that gave them rounded corners, but the square cornered versions were cut down from discovered sheets. Finally, and it is truly a nitpick, there are only three boxers in the set, technically. Primo Carnera, the former heavyweight champ, is shown in wrestling togs. By the time of issue he was long retired from the ring but was making money as a pro wrestler. So, there are really three boxers (louis, lamotta, cerdan) and one wrestler. PSA: by way of disclosure, I don't own any of the cards so I don't really have a stake in the authenticity debate.

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04-03-2005, 08:01 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisThanks Adam!! You are our exhibit guru... so your opinion after viewing BOTH the round and the square versions is very important!! So do you think someone in the 1980's discovered the uncut sheets and then cut them THEN?? That would explain perfectly why there were 24 cards that surfaced and 24 that didn't --- two separate sheets of cards and only ONE such sheet was found in mass quanities in the 1980's. SO... I guess a card is "real" if it was printed in 1947 and the cut free and distributed in 1984, right? I guess we should ask Gretzky & McNall, huh? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Adam: What do you know about the original DISTRIBUTION of this set??? Was it nationwide, or only in one area??

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04-03-2005, 08:04 AM

Posted By: PASJDAdam's post is consistent with this "information" from the link I previously posted: "There are some known reprints floating around the hobby -- some "graded" by unscrupulous and little-known companies -- while a large cache of twenty-four of the set's cards discoverd in the 1980s keeps these cards easily found in hobby circles."

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04-03-2005, 08:08 AM

Posted By: PASJDOnce again the Talmud will have to be consulted about the question of whether a card subsequently cut from an original sheet is the real McCoy. I seem to recall this issue arose in the context, sorry for the modern reference, of Tiger Woods rookie cards being cut from sheets a few years after they were printed. I don't remember the position of the grading companies exactly, but I think SGC graded them and PSA didn't.

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04-03-2005, 08:09 AM

Posted By: Anonymouswarshawlaw, I tend to agree with your assessment. Round corners should not be the sole discriminator to use to label an entire group of cards as reprints - it is not hard for me to envision a large batch of these surviving in storage and surfacing in the 1980's. I don't think using PSA criteria as to whether or not they will grade these cards shows whether they are authentic or not. PSA chooses not to grade several issues, but that doesn't make them less original. Star Basketball is a good example of cards PSA will not grade - these sets include many completely original examples and from what I understand relatively limited reprinting. Generally speaking, I do not think PSA is going to go out on a limb to authenticate any group of cards that may have some controversery surrounding them or that might take too much additional effort to grade. Additionally, the way the bread cards are cut probably presents some problems. I like PSA fine and this is their business decision to make. Incidentally, GAI has graded bond bread cards with square corners although I do not know if they still do and I couldn't find any on ebay at the moment. They also grade Star Basketball cards. From a business standpoint this seems like a good way for GAI to pick up market share that is currently not being tapped. In the interest of full disclosure I do own some of the square corner bread cards. However, it is a pretty small collection and definitely not enough to keep me up nights worrying about authenticity. Adam

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04-03-2005, 08:17 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI think we have a simple solution. Anyone who wants to buy a 1947 Homogenized Bond bread card must first submit the card to ADAM (warshawlaw), along with a $1 non-refundable retainer, for him to authenticate it. ADAM will authenticate your card for $1... but will of course have to charge you TWICE his normal hourly rate for all of the time it takes him to everything. In the end... you end up paying ADAM $750 to authenticate your $7.50 card... but at least you can sleep at night. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-03-2005, 11:09 AM

Posted By: scottHi, I am normally just a reader as i am just getting more interested in pre war. But thought i'd chime in on this. GAI recieved my cards about a month ago and there was some ? about there authenticity. What happened was one grader thought good and another did not. At that point Mike called to let me know what was going on and that they were bringing in someone else to look at the print pattern and stock. I got my results via a phone call friday that they were legit and were being slabbed. By the way all were square corners and that is what led me to submit them in the first place, plus that the condition was so good. When i get them next week i will post scans for all to see if you like. scott

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04-03-2005, 11:34 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisThanks!! Glad to hear that GAI is questioning these and examining them closely!!! It sure sounds like there are authentic cards out there in this set with square corners. I guess whoever cut them from the authentic sheets in the 1980's didn't want to spend countless hours cutting all of the round corners by hand!! Can't blame them!

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04-03-2005, 11:55 AM

Posted By: PASJDWould GAI slab a card it believed to be cut from a sheet? Or is it still possible the cards were from a find of already cut cards?

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04-03-2005, 12:02 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisOK ... back to my ORIGINAL question: Since this 48-card set is BLANK-backed... and since Jackie Robinson is included in the set... WHAT DATES THIS SET SPECIFICALLY TO 1947??? -------------- Jackie debuted on April 15, 1947... so wouldn't they have waited a bit to see if he did well and stayed in the league before including him in a small set of star players? Isn't it more likely that Homogenized Bond Bread started out SMALL with the "Jackie Robinson SUBSET" in Brooklyn only... and LATER decided that the cards were a success and EXPANDED to the larger set with more players and to a wider market?? --------------- I believe that the Jackie Robinson subset was made in 1947 for Brooklyn area customers... but I can't count those cards as his "rookie cards" because of the small distribution area and onl one player in the set. (Just my personal feelings) BUT... I could consider the 1947 Robinson card from the 48-player set as his rookie... if I had some PROOF that the cards were made in 1947 (or technically even 1948, since his Leaf and Bowman cards came out in 1949).

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04-03-2005, 12:06 PM

Posted By: PASJDHal I dunno what dates them to 47 but it hardly seems surprising given the publicity and notoriety surrounding Robinson, and I believe it was known well in advance of the season that he would be playing for Brooklyn, that a manufacturer would have included him in a set even if he hadn't established himself. EDITED TO ADD: As for dating them, is there anyone in the set who retired after the 47 season so it is unlikely they would have been included if the set was really 48?

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04-03-2005, 12:16 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisNot that I can find. If I had photos of the 44 baseball players, then I could cross-check their teams and see if any of them switched teams in 1947 or 1948... but I don't have any way of seeing all the cards to see which team the players are pictured with.

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04-03-2005, 12:40 PM

Posted By: denniswhat about the 1947 blue tint set as rookie cards of spahn,kiner,robinson?

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04-03-2005, 12:47 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisOK, here we go: AARON ROBINSON: 1947 - Played for Yankees 1948 - Played for White Sox 1949 - Played for Tigers Who is he pictured with?? -------------- VERN STEPHENS: 1947 - Played for St. Louis Browns 1948-49 - Played for Boston Who is he pictured with? -------------- GEORGE TEBBETTS: 1947 - Started season with Detroit 1947-on - Traded to Boston midway through 1947 Who is he pictured with? -------------- LARRY JANSEN: Major League Debut was April 15, 1947 Why would he be included in a 1947 set until AFTER he had done something? -------------- JOE GORDON: 1946 - Played for NY 1947 - Played for Cleveland A picture of him with NY from 1946 would likely make this a 1947 set. -------------- BOB ELLIOTT: 1946 - Played for Pitt 1947 - Played for Boston A picture of him with Pitt from 1946 would likely make this a 1947 set. -------------- ED JOOST: Did NOT PLAY AT ALL in 1946! 1947 - Played with Philadelphia Certainly he would not have been included in a set printed before the 1947 season. --------------- SHELDON JONES & BOBBY THOMSON: They both made their Big League debuts at the VERY END of 1946. Doubtful that they would they have been included in a pre-season 1947 set. --------------- NOBODY RETIRED AT THE END OF 1947. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> SO... If any of you can find some images of these cards with the players, perhaps we can solve this riddle. AARON ROBINSON would seem to be the KEY CARD... since he switched every year!!

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04-03-2005, 12:49 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisDennis: The 2005 "big book" lists the R346 blue tints as being from "Circa 1948-1949"... so I think it would be too "iffy" to count as definite 1947 or 1948 cards.

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04-03-2005, 12:54 PM

Posted By: Julie Bread set, same year...the multui-player AND the AJackie set are BOTH sometimes called "Homoginized Bond."

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04-03-2005, 01:15 PM

Posted By: dennisrobinson has pinstriped uniform on must be yankee, joost has a c on cap,played with cincinatti in 43,elliot i can't tell from card pic.but uni looks different than kiners

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04-03-2005, 01:18 PM

Posted By: PASJDJoe Gordon and Aaron Robinson appear in Yankee uniforms and Vern Stephens in St. Louis. So far, consistent with the 1947 hypothesis. EDITED TO ADD Indeed Joe Gordon would appear conclusive, a 1948 set would not possibly picture him in a Yankee uniform if he didn't play for them in 1947. EDITED TO ADD LINK SHOWING JOE GORDON: <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5176950237&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86854&item=5176950237&rd=1</a>

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04-03-2005, 01:19 PM

Posted By: WesleyI am going to post this on the B/S/T board, but since we are on the subject of these cards, does anyone have any of the thirteen 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards for sale? I have four and need nine of them and will pay handsomely for the other nine.

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04-03-2005, 01:28 PM

Posted By: dennis<a href="http://www.oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003</a> does this mean cards exist w/square and rounded corners --also printing on rounded looks darker

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04-03-2005, 03:04 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisIt sure looks like a 1947 set to me now. Clearly a regional issue in the New York area, however, since 75% of the baseball players in the set are from Brooklyn, Giants or Yankees... including some brand new players for those teams... and then some stars (Musial, Williams, Kiner, Feller, etc.) from the rest of the league.

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04-03-2005, 03:33 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackAdam is correct. There may indeed be reprints on the market (there's reprints of a lot of stuff), but I have examined square corner cards that are genuine. In particular, microscopic examination of particular cards showed that the printing was vintage. I don't have an opinion about how the cards were cut-- whether the squares were cut later from sheets or whatever. How/when the cards were cut may be the grading companies' issue or question that prevent them from grading-- you'd have to ask them about that. But, putting aside the issue of cutting, there are square cards that are legitimate.

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04-03-2005, 05:15 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisOK, way to go people!! Now the only issue left for collectors to decide personally is whether or not they want any of the 1947 Homogenized Bread Jackie Robinson cards for his "rookie" cards. PRO: There certainly aren't any 1946 cards with Jackie Robinson playing the big leagues, so these would be his first. Make sure you get a real one, however, regardless of whether the corners are round or square. CON: They were only issued in the New York area and could not have been collected nationally. But then again, we are talking about New York City... not Two Forks, Idaho. The black and white is not nearly as attractive as the full color 1949 Leafs or Bowmans. Like the guys said: Collect What YOU Want To Collect!!! (cwYOUwtc) = Always be Happy!

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04-03-2005, 05:39 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI would hardly call the 49 Bowman Jackie a full color card. It's a black and white photo with just a red background added. Cool card, but certainly not full color. I think the Bond Bread cards are actually done with greater clarity.

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04-03-2005, 06:19 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisGoing by memory here... but doesn't Jackie also have that pretty Dodger blue on his hat and shirt as well??

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04-03-2005, 06:37 PM

Posted By: barrysloateYou may be right, but it's just fake blue added on. Part of the charm of the 49 Bowmans is how crudely they were designed. I suppose you could say the same about the Leafs. Compare them with 1950 and on, and you see a big difference. When I first got into the hobby, 49 Bowman was my favorite set.

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04-03-2005, 06:37 PM

Posted By: PASJDHal you must be keeping track of this in some way, on how many HOFers would you say there is a clear consensus as to what their rookie cards are versus how many there are differences of opinion?

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04-03-2005, 06:51 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisPrior to 1950... there are only a HANDFUL on which everyone agrees... and those are the few whose FIRST card came out in a big national set and they have ZERO images in any prior sets (regional or die cut or premiums or exhibits or minor leagues or anything) 1893 Just So Cy Young 1939 Play Ball Ted Williams 1933 Goudey Arky Vaughn 1922 American Caramel Pie Traynor etc. There are a few others, of course... but MANY guys have Zeenuts or minor league cards (that cause a lot of debate)... and MANY have exhibits or die-cuts (that cause a lot of debate)... and MANY have strip cards (that cause a lot of debate). ------------------------ If the definition of a rookie card includes a NATIONALLY issued set containing several different players in which the player is shown on his first BIG LEAGUE team... then almost EVERY card prior to 1950 is going to fail to meet those criteria.

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04-03-2005, 07:30 PM

Posted By: PASJDWell if one forum member can write a book on boxing cards, perhaps the inspiration to write a book on rookie cards will strike you. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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04-03-2005, 08:35 PM

Posted By: JoshI am very familiar with these cards, both the 48 card set as well as the 13 card Robinson set. Is it possible for a card that was created using photoengraving to be counterfeited to look exactly like the card was originally printed? Originally, I did not think so, but after seeing some of the things I have seen, I actually think someone somewhere along the lines had access to advanced printing equipment (or perhaps an original printing machine capable of photoengraving), knew what they were doing, created professional plates using the same print pattern as the original, and ultimately created the suspected reprints of the 1947 set. I have examined many of these square and round corner cards, and the photoengraving looks legit under 10X on every one of them. I also believe that whoever created the counterfeits also is responsible for creating the entire 1963 Bazooka set in singles. And I also believe this person lives in Pennsylvania, and many of the cards, especially the fake Bazooka's, were introduced into the market locally around that area. Many of the sellers who are now selling them are from around that area. And I also think these cards have a direct tie with the eBay celebrity-for-a-day, paoutdoorsman. Anyone else know anything about who created those Bazooka's? That may reveal quite a bit more about those 47 Bond Bread square corner cards.

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04-03-2005, 08:58 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthJosh, I am quite familiar with the person you are referring to. As far as I know he is long gone out of the business. Greg

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04-03-2005, 11:49 PM

Posted By: Julie<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BJRBBF002.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BJRBBFT001.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BJRBBP001.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BJRBB001.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BJRBBS001.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BJRBBSL001.jpg">

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04-04-2005, 05:34 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisJulie: Maybe THOSE six cold have... but put up a scan of the card showing Jackie trotting home in a huge stadium (the card used as illustration in the 2005 catalog) and let's see if people think that it could have been done then. For all I know, they may have been able to put in a "fake" background?

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04-04-2005, 09:18 AM

Posted By: Juliethink it looked like Yankee Stadium behiund him; the Montreal Royals didn't play in the 19th century, you know.

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04-04-2005, 09:21 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisTrue... but I can't think of any Minor League parks TODAY that have a big upper deck with bunting.

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04-04-2005, 09:32 AM

Posted By: PASJDIf Jackie appears in a Dodgers not a Royals uniform, including in an action photo, why would you think the pics were taken in Montreal?

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04-04-2005, 09:50 AM

Posted By: Julie"Los Angeles Dodgers--Jackie Robinson-Timeline" to 1946--you will see a clear picture of Jackie in a Montreal Uniform,EXACTLY like one of my cards. I will post it as soon as my uploarding thing recovers from whatever ails it.

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04-04-2005, 12:20 PM

Posted By: Julie Vognar........

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04-04-2005, 02:23 PM

Posted By: HowieSquare cornered cards were known about prior to the Festberg find. They were known as W571, and described as coming with round or square corners in the mid-1970's Sports Collectors's Bible and the Stirling Sports Card Catalog D5002. The Festberg find contained original individual square cornered cards that came directly from the bread company. There were no uncut sheets. There were no handcut cards. The only thing wrong with the cards was there was a large QUANTITY of them. They flooded the market, and sets became common and cheap. There was never any need to reprint these because originals were plentiful and cheap. That is until the Harrisburg Grading Room Find cards surfaced in the recent years. IN HAND COMPARISON of an original card against an HGRF card shows a completely different paper stock and print quality. SCD was instrumental in alerting its readers of these, but when they changed their description in their price guide to lump the Festberg find cards in with the HGRF cards, they managed to cause unnecessary confusion with obvious fakes and original cards. Real grading companies should be grading the original cards. This includes cards with roundish looking corners and squared cornered ones too, like the ones in the Festberg find. But they won't until SCD sets the story straight in their price guide.

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04-04-2005, 02:35 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackMy feeling is that there are more different cards and memorabilia than a collector could every buy, and the collector is picking and chosing which items to purchase. If a collector has pressing questions or concerns about a card or pin or Joe DiMaggio bat, he can chose not to purchase. Even if I disagree with the opinion about authenticity, I recognize that the collector owns the veto over what enters his personal collection. I don't own a single Homoginized Bread card, and can't say my life is lacking because of it. I always say that, whether or not he realizes it, the collector has the ultimate weapon in that he can always chose not to purchase.

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04-04-2005, 02:47 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestMany do not have pressing concerns or questions, because they don't realize there is a problem.

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04-04-2005, 04:06 PM

Posted By: davidcyclebackThe main point to readers and lurkers is that all Bond Bread/Homoginized Bread/square corner cards that are genuine can be authenticated, and it's actually not that difficult of a process. Perhaps the main graders will start grading them down the road. I don't fault them for taking their time before grading a different issue. Better too slow than too fast.

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04-05-2005, 09:53 AM

Posted By: Julie Vognar<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/JackMon003.jpg"> See, this picture WAS taken in Montreal! One of the Bond Breads, 1947!

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04-06-2005, 10:47 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestThey did a good job in the "Brooklyn" version of removing the stadium background, and creating "Dodgers" over the previous jersey logo.

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04-06-2005, 11:28 AM

Posted By: Scott Forrest<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60597&item=5182816859&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60597&item=5182816859&rd=1</a>

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04-17-2005, 03:39 PM

Posted By: jackgoodmanfrom The Trader Speaks 8/80. I hope the scans are readable. <img src="http://www.mlbvintage.com/pics/uploads/trader8_80.jpg"> <img src="http://www.mlbvintage.com/pics/uploads/trader880_article.jpg"> <img src="http://www.mlbvintage.com/pics/uploads/trader880_article2.jpg">

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04-17-2005, 05:20 PM

Posted By: scottJust as an update. I will be recieving my order from GAI sometime this week and will try to post pic's of the 7 i sent in. All were graded anywhere from 7 on up to a 9 I believe. Any more relevant info would be great as i would like to start working towards completing this set.It is just that i very rarly see these come up in ex+ condition. scott

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04-17-2005, 05:42 PM

Posted By: WesleyScott, Are the cards that you are getting back from GAI the Bond Homogenized Bread with multiple players or the Bond Bread Jackie Robinson cards? sorry.....I meant to address you Scott

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04-17-2005, 05:45 PM

Posted By: scottI assume that is directed at myself ? But to answer your ? the one's i have are the multi player set. scott

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04-17-2005, 05:56 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisOK guys, I am 66 years old and the one great feature of aging is that your mind starts reverting back to your youth. And, believe it or not, recalling happy events when you were 15 or 10 or even 5 years old becomes clearer as you age. These 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread cards were the first BaseBall cards I collected growing up in Hillside, NJ. I lived only two blocks away from "The Scooter" Rizzuto. I mention this because obviously I was an avid Yankee fan and was only interested in collecting the Yankee cards. I do have the complete set (48 cards); and, the fronts of 5 Yankees (Joe DiMag, Berra, Lindell, Keller, and Rizzuto) that are in the set are identically derived from the 1947 Yankee Stadium Photo packs. The same goes for the 7 Dodgers (Ebbets Field Pix) and the 7 NY Giants (Polo Grounds Pix). Two additional Yankees (Joe Gordon and Aaron Robinson are action pictures that were taken in spring training. At least 12 other player's pictures reflect spring training backgrounds. I clearly recall that I bought these Bread cards before the 1948 Bowmans were available. The fact that I also collected the three 1947 NY Team Photo packs and am able to compare the pictures has me convinced that this set was issued either in the summer, or for sure by the fall of 1947. The Johnny Lindell card in the set, I vaguely recall trading for with a classmate while attending Greek school in the fall of 1947. My sister would be able to confirm this and I will inquire of her. The Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set (13 cards) is a subset that had limited distribution. Barry Sloate's take on this is probably pretty accurate.

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04-17-2005, 08:25 PM

Posted By: Ted ZanidakisHal, As I said I have the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set of 48 cards. But, I'm sorry I don't have a scanner or a digital camera. So, you have to take my word that the Jackie I have is an original. Altho, this one is not of the cards from my youthful collection, it is nevertheless, one I have had for many years. Its corners are factory beveled, as are the other 47 cards in my set. And, since you seem to be a "purist" regarding true Rookie cards, consider others that are included in this set: Yogi Berra, Joe Gordon (as a Yankee), Ewell Blackwell, Ralph Branca, Del Ennis, Carl Furillo, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner, Stan Musial, Johnny Sain, and Bobby Thomson. Of course the overarching question is....can this set be considered a major national issue ? I believe it is, based on my many years' conversations with veterans in the hobby. But, I could be proven wrong in this belief. One additional bit of info regarding the "square-corner" Reprints. There is a definite difference in the card stock. The Reprint cards, when compared to the original 1947 cards, have a noticeably thinner feel to them.