PSA v. SGC

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Posted By: <b>Dave Yoken</b><p>Hi everyone,<br /><br />Now that my debacle is over (and I'm trying to get past it myself), <br />I have a <i>real</i> question for everyone.<br /><br />I just signed up for PSA, and sent 10 cards in to get graded.<br />One of the cards was a 1957 Topps Mantle/Berra Yankees' Hitters<br />card in really beautiful shape with absolutely no flaws on<br />the card whatsoever, sharp corners, beautiful centering, nice gloss, etc. I thought for sure that it would get a 7 or an 8. When I finally got my grading results yesterday online, it came back as a 3. Understandably, I am very upset, and don't know what to do<br />at this point, because I paid a lot of $ for that card. (In addition,<br />none of my other cards submitted came even close to my expectations, including<br />an almost gem mint 1956 Campanella card that came back as a 5.) <br />What the heck is going on here? (When I get the cards back in the mail<br />from PSA, I'll send along scans so you can see for yourself.)<br /><br />I am wondering if any of you have any advice, and/or a preference of grading companies for vintage cards. I've heard that SGC is better than PSA. What do you think? And what about GAI and BVS? And does customer service play a part in the decision as well?<br /><br />I have a lot of older cards I am thinking of getting graded, but I have a very<br />bitter taste in my mouth after this PSA experience.<br /><br />Thanks all for your responses to my last email. I am humbled by the<br />forgiveness shown to me!<br /><br />Best,<br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know you are going to be told that your question is not within the parameters of this chatboard, since it is post WWII. But I'll help you with it anyway.<br /> In most cases when you expect a 7 or 8 and you get a 3, there is some tiny flaw that is difficult to see with the naked eye but which the grading service can see with their electronic equipment. Perhaps your card has a tiny surface wrinkle or a minute piece of paper loss that you just missed. While all of us debate the merits of sending to PSA vs. SGC, I doubt a 3 from one company will come back an 8 from the other; maybe a 4, but I don't think their standards are that different. I would get a good magnifier and a strong light and see if you can find what they found. My guess is the cards have some hidden flaws. I personally prefer SGC but that's just an opinion and they grade very strictly, which is of course a good thing.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>If you do a search, you should find a lot of threads on psa v. sgc v. gai. Personally, I dont care much for psa. However, I think, even for them, its unlikely that they would screw up so bad as to give you a 3 on a card as nice as you described. Absent a good scan, its impossible to tell you if the card is undergraded or not. <br /><br />It is possible that your cards has some wrinkles, etc., that may not be so obvious without magnification - but again, I am only speculating right now. <br /><br />SGC is the best grading company in my opinion - most consistent and best customer service. GAI is also good, but they have some problems with their slabs imo (the cards dont always fit perfectly in the insert and have some movement). BGS (I assume BVS was a typo) is mostly known for modern cards and I wouldnt use them for vintage.<br /><br />Please post some scans when you get the cards.

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Posted By: <b>Howie</b><p>Maybe your expectations are too unrealistic. Pop them out and send them to SGC and see what they have to say. My guess is that the grades from the two companies will be similar. Simply paying a lot of money for raw cards won't guaranty that you're getting what you think you're paying extra for. The person who sold you the cards is to blame, not the grading company who's giving you the bad news. Expecting to get a Gem-Mint grade on a 1956 Campanella that was purchased in the last 10 years from a dealer or Ebay is hopeless.

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Posted By: <b>Dave Yoken</b><p>I forgot to mention that I had a Cy Young T206 Portrait card graded as well. It came<br />back as a PSA 3. <br /><br />Thanks for all your responses!<br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>I will agree with Barry here. <br /><br />In my experience with sending in cards I have never thought a card would get an "88" and it came back a "40". I thought "60" and got a "50" - that happens. Sounds like you may have missed something. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Closest experience I've had to something like that is when I had a Papoose Gum card of Sitting Bull come back a 60 when I was expecting at least an 88 if not higher. When I asked SGC about it and forwarded a scan, they said it got down graded for the black print marks on front. I had to point out them that they were not print marks, but fibers in the paper. Not likely they are going to make this mistake with a baseball card, but it does happen on occassion<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>There is another alternative - you can crack a card out of the slab and resubmit it. I've heard that this has worked for people in the past. You may be fed up with PSA but there are few other worth while alternatives. SGC seems to be the authenticator of choice for a lot of vintage collectors.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Without seeing the card, I think a 3 on a T206 cy young is a pretty nice grade and wouldnt feel too bad about that (depending on how much you paid). I collect a lot of T206s and most are the equivilent of 3's or 4's. Cards in this grade range are nice b/c they are still very visually appealing (and usually are crease free) and are more reasonable cost-wise than higher graded cards.<br /><br />For me (and I know many advanced collectors may not agree with this) buying graded cards is the way to go for several reasons:<br /><br />1. While you always have to buy the card and not the grade (meaning, for example, that every psa 4 is not equal), you have some certainty as to the card's condition and you dont have to worry about the grade.<br /><br />2. I like the slabs for protection and really like how cards display in sgc slabs. <br /><br />3. The legit grading companies take 90% of the guesswork out of trying to figure out if a card listed online is authentic or not.<br /><br />There are no guarantees though - I just bought a psa 4 T206 and when it arrived, it had a nice obvious wrinkle that was not real apparent on the ebay listing. Ebay missed that one and I know when I send it to sgc to be crossed over into one of their slabs, it will be dropped to a 40 (their equivilent to a 3).

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Posted By: <b>Dave Yoken</b><p>Hi everyone,<br /><br />How can I prevent this type of error in judgment in terms of buying cards in the future??? Would you suggest bringing one of those loupe 10x magnifying glasses, and examining every aspect of the card before purchase? If so, is there a specific magnifying glass you use that I should purchase? I would be willing to spend a decent amount of $ on a very good and solid loupe if that we save me this type of heartache in the future.<br /><br />Any other suggestions before purchasing raw cards?<br /><br />Thanks again!<br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>A jewlers loupe is the best route to go. It's small and easy to carry around.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Like it or not, the safest way to buy a card is one already graded. A raw card can seem perfectly fine to you but the grading service may deem it too short to meet its standards. If that is the case, you bought a zero. Many collectors make money buying raw cards and then getting them graded, but without experience you will make mistakes and pay your dues. And if you buy raw cards on ebay, you need to be especially careful. Like everything, this hobby takes practice to get good at it. I'm doing this over twenty years and I'm always learning something new and can still make a mistake, for sure.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Everyone has already made the good points. Sometimes its possible to get a comment from the grading company as to why an apparently high-grade card received a low mark. <br /><br />The minute flaws others have referred to usually do exist, so if you re-examine and conclude that there is a wrinkle, mark, paper loss or whatever, then submitting the card to the other companies, or cracking it out and sending it in again, seems a bit disingenuous to me. Does it happen all the time-sure. Does that make it right--you tell me.<br /><br />As for the magnifier, you can get a good loupe on ebay virtually anytime- with BINs availble nearly every day. Type in "10x loupe" and see. <br /><br />Good luck.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Several years ago I submitted a card I was sure was going to get an 8 and possibly a 9. When it came back PSA 6, I was really upset. I resubmitted it raw a few months later and it came back a 6 again. I went to the PSA booth at a show to ask why and they argued there was an extremely faint wrinkle on this otherwise mint card and that 6 was the highest grade a card could get with a wrinkle. Now this "wrinkle" (if it even exists) is so faint that it is dificult to see under 10X magnification and I personally think it is b.s. It looks like the natural unevenness of cardboard to me. To their credit, they did give this mint card the same grade twice in a row. I happily have the card out of any authenticator's holder now.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Harry</b><p>I agree with most of the comments back. I have submitted 2000+ cards to PSA and have been burned with the dreaded "surface wrinkles". On closer examination, I did see that. My personal opinion is that they didn't distract from the appearance of the card. I feel the same way about a barely noticable pin hole in an otherwise "Mint" card would bring it down to a PSA 1. BUT, those are the standards that everyone has to follow and I willingly follow them as well. And that is why condition rarity translates to big dollars.<br /><br />There are over two dozen grading companies out there and you can find a company that will take your grading fee and give you the grade you want. However, it is meaningless to go with a third tier company like that. I can not speak for SGC and it's many followers on this board. PSA, however, I do have quite a bit of experience with. Their process includes multiple graders indepentantly review each card. If the first two grades don't match, and additional grader looks at the card. So there are checks and balances that I believe only occur at PSA (please correct me if I'm wrong SGC guys). <br /><br />I have no problem with SGC as it would be my second choice. GAI and BVG (Beckett Vinage Grading) would be would a level below those two but leaps and bounds about the majority of other grading companies. <br /><br />So, in short, I echo some of the advice to go with graded cards for any high priced cards. It's not worth it to take a chance.<br /><br />Harry

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Posted By: <b>Jason D</b><p>I would resend it to PSA. THey are so inconsistant you may actually get a 7 or 8 next time around. The suck on grading and really dont know what grade to assign it. I just purposely sent in some t206s with two in the group being trimmed. All cards came back graded including the two trimmed ones as 4s! One was cut so bad it had an irregular top. This company sucks stick with SGC or GAI.

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Posted By: <b>David Hobson</b><p>Dave,this is just a guess but you did say you were a relatively new collector. Its been my experience that many newer collectors have a natural bias with their cards. Its human nature. Before you submit a card, look at others you already own, that are slabbed at the grade you think it is. Be objective and really look close and read the authenticators guidelines as to what they describe for each grade. Also try to mentally error on the conservative side by 1 grade level. You'll be suprised at the results.<br /><br />I recently submitted 1958 cards to PSA and wrote the grades down prior, 5 8's and 5 7's. they came back 4 8's and 6 7's.... i was very satisfied because i felt i was objective to start with.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Dave makes a good point. I remember collecting as a kid and considered all of my cards (mostly from the 50's through the dreded 80's) mint. Then I went to college, got a job, got married, etc. and just got back into the hobby collecting vintage cards about 2 years ago. I went back and looked at my old cards a bit more objectively and couldnt believe that they were the same cards that I remembered.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>good point--why don't you share your experience with Kit Young and Larry Fristch--seems they haven't looked at their cards since they were kids either, given their ideas of "mint" (or excellent, for that matter). <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />LOL. I called Fristch about some cards a few weeks ago and he told me if I wanted a card with no creases, I would have to go with an Ex+ by his grading scale. I passed.

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Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p>Dave - Your experience with PSA is quite typical of a first time submitter and the exact same thing happened to me. Once understanding how to grade though, you'll find those grades you received to be accurate for the most part. Included in my first PSA submission were two Topps 1965 Mantles. One was perfectly centered, beautifully printed, had crisp focus, but had a slight ding at one of the corners. Basically flawless except for that ding. The other was slightly off centered, not especially well printed, the ink was a little light, but it had 4 sharp corners. To me the first mentioned card was much preferable yet that card received a 5 and the other card received a 7. I am a big stickler on centering - I would rather have a well centered 5 type of card than an off centered 7. I sold the 7 and kept the 5 simply because to me the 5 was a better card. <br><br>Grading is a game of corners - that is the first thing to key in on when determining a grade then step back and look at the card for other flaws and even features such as centering. I prefer a 16X lighted magnifying glass which really brings out the imperfections in a card - especially when making a decision to purchase a card at a show where the lighting sometimes isn't all that good. Remember that an old saying is &quot;buy the card not the holder.&quot; Don't assume because a card is a PSA 8 that it is a &quot;magnificent&quot; card. Grading is a good guideline, but then a card should still be examined to suit your tastes as a collector.<br><br>Steve

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Posted By: <b>CHRIS</b><p>SGC DOES NOT CHARGE FOR POPULATION REPORTS. THERE HOLDERS LOOK GREAT, I BELIEVE THEY ARE CONSISTANT AND I HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS AS OF YET.