Just So Tobacco Jesse Burkett [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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03-22-2005, 06:52 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisSUPER JOB by PSA! Slab the card for the collector to "authenticate" and "protect"... but CLEARLY LABEL it as "remounted" to clarify why it was not graded and to inform future buyers! -------------- Now we just need Andy to get tired of it and put it up for auction. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-22-2005, 07:05 PM

Posted By: leonThey did something right. Congrats !!!

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03-22-2005, 07:35 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestThat's not an altered mount - it's a mount from a completely different issue.

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03-22-2005, 07:39 PM

Posted By: PaulI think this is a great step in the right direction for PSA. But I have a suggestion for how they could improve things. I'd like to see the word "altered" on the front, and on the back have a more detailed description of the alteration. Better still, the back could say "see website for details of the alteration." Then an even more complete explanation could be given. Beautiful card.

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03-22-2005, 07:53 PM

Posted By: Beautiful Card!Are they real? PS. I'll take it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-22-2005, 08:15 PM

Posted By: warshawlawreal or not, they're fun to play with <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> All kidding aside, I like what I see w/r/t slabbing for authentication and protection. still can't get past that card condom thing, though...

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03-23-2005, 04:19 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAndy- I'm happy for you that you got your Burkett slabbed. But I think it's going to open a big can of worms. PSA, and others, will soon be bombarded by everyone who has a trimmed or altered card who wants to get theirs slabbed too. Wasn't the whole point of PSA to keep altered cards out of holders? Now they grade altered cards and state so on the label. In essence, no card can be turned down now. Soon you will see labels which read: "altered, trimmed, recolored, and a crease was spooned out of the corner, otherwise authentic." Just my opinion, but I think this is starting a bad precedent- your good fortune notwithstanding.

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03-23-2005, 04:33 AM

Posted By: dennisif they do authenticate altered cards at least you know what you have,its encapsulated,its labeled authentic.if a collector pays for that service,why not provide it? how can this possibly do any harm?i think it would end a lot of the scamming that takes place all over,not just on ebay.

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03-23-2005, 05:31 AM

Posted By: barrysloateIt does no harm, but it stretches the parameters of what should be encapsulated. If I go out and purchase an N28 Adrian Anson that is blank backed because it was cut years ago from an advertising poster, then go out and purchase an N28 pedestrian and have the back of it skinned off and glued to the Anson, do I now have something worthy of a holder? After all, front and back are both authentic, both are from 1887, so why not a holder for that which reads: "authentic-altered?" When the public saw that PSA would be swamped with hundreds of home made cards that were nothing more than spare parts glued together. And Andy's card, despite its rarity and high value, is nothing more than that- two separate cards melded together. Nothing against Andy, because I know he is happy with the result, and the card came back from the conservator looking rather spiffy- but I don't believe it should be holdered. Again, the holders were originally made to kick out altered cards; now they are being welcomed with open arms. My point is where do you draw the line?

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03-23-2005, 05:37 AM

Posted By: Scott Forrestalso gives more credibility to PSA's slabbed, "unaltered" cards. Collectors will be more likely to think "hey, it's slabbed as unaltered so there's no chance it has a problem - if it were altered it would be in one of those 'altered' slabs." ....unless PSA plans to recall all those slabbed "nodgrass" cards and add 'altered - letter removed' to the label.

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03-23-2005, 05:39 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisMy guess is that they will draw the line at: "Very very rare one-of-a-kind type items" like this. They did the same with the 1863 "cricket ticket" of Harry Wright. It had all 4 corners clipped (I think), but the slabbed it as authentic because THAT is what's important.

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03-23-2005, 06:31 AM

Posted By: barrysloateYes Hal, and they authenticated my two cricket cards too, and they were submitted by me only because that was demanded by my consignor, and he wished to conform to the two that were previously sold. But I could have told anyone willing to listen that they were authentic- after all, I do have over twenty years of experience with vintage material. But how rare is rare? If I have an N167 Ewing that was torn out of a scrapbook, and purchase an N167 boxer (not cheap, but cheaper than baseball), and use the back to repair it, does that qualify as rare enough? After all, there can't be more than 2-3 N167 Ewings out there? Again, where do you draw the line, and why set this precedent in the first place? I predict that PSA is opening themselves up to a lot of unnecessary grief down the road. Are they going to have to have a conference every time one of these rare hybrids comes in to decide if they should holder it? That's going to waste a lot of company time. Will they make a list of all acceptable rare cards, and a second list of the ones that don't qualify? And if a small hoard of Just So's is suddenly found, and by a miracle it contains two Burketts, does Andy receive a recall from the company saying we have to remove your card from the holder? My last comment was tongue in cheek, of course, but I am just opening this up to examination and discussion.

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03-23-2005, 06:42 AM

Posted By: An Authentic What?On one hand, the owner has a beautiful card, but on the other hand, it's another step towards giving stabilization a cleansed look. The Market, always the market.

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03-23-2005, 07:36 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestWhat if the owner of the Just So Burkett "border" comes forward and decides to combine it with an actress image? Does PSA slab that hybrid as well? Next thing you know they'll be slabbing hybrids of the tobacco containers the cards came in.

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03-23-2005, 07:43 AM

Posted By: leonis that PSA did the right thing. I think their "authentic only" slabs should be done on a case by case basis and this is a good one. It's a judgement call not unlike a lot of things in life. Personally I still agree with what they are doing in these cases. One person's opinion.....regards

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03-23-2005, 07:52 AM

Posted By: barrysloateFair point Scott- but do you think someone really saved that border? I think it may be lost, and I know you were just kind of joking. But there is another point I would like to bring up- and Andy, if you are reading this and I am sure you are- this is in no way a slight to you. It was your goal to get the card encapsulated, and you achieved it, and I know you a thrilled. But this does raise some important issues. One day you may decide to sell the card, and as time goes by and the card has changed hands several times, will there eventually be an owner who has no concept of the degree to which the card has been altered? We are not talking about removing a crease or erasing some pencil writing, and by trimmed we are not suggesting it's a 1/16 inch short on the bottom border. This is about as big an alteration as a card could possibly go through. Does PSA provide enough information on the label so that someone long down the road will be aware of it? I don't think so. Someone I spoke to suggested a before and after image should be included with the card, though I'm not sure how that could be done. Andy, I know you are honest enough to disclose to some future buyer exactly what was done, but after we are all long gone will some eventual buyer understand the process the card has been through? Again, just pointing out some of the ramifications of what I think slabbing this card has created.

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03-23-2005, 08:00 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerI agree with Barry that PSA made a horrible mistake by slabbing this Frankenstein card. The whole concept of altered cards being kept out of holders has been destroyed (I'm not counting the Wagner). BTW, Hal I completely disagree with you. You set a policy and stick to it. The value of a card, or part of a card, should not determine whether it is slabbed or not; the authenticity of a card should. BTW, PSA could have just as easily called this an altered, restored, Just So actress card. There is more actress cardboard than baseball cardboard.

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03-23-2005, 08:02 AM

Posted By: Scott ForrestBut it was aimed at the extent of the alteration, as you have so well described in your response. I don't think it should have been slabbed. If PSA (or any other grading company) is going to do this sort of thing, they should provide full disclosure as you said - one way would be to have the details available on their web-site: you just key in the item # for slabbed, altered cards and the detail pops up on a screen. In fact, they could have such information available for all cards with qualifiers. But I disagree with Leon that it should be evaluated ona case by case basis - too much room for favoritism.

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03-23-2005, 08:07 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerAndy--BTW, what was the purpose of having PSA slab this card? It could have been protected in a screw down holder.

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03-23-2005, 08:11 AM

Posted By: warshawlawgrind up an N167 actress card, not a boxer <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-23-2005, 08:23 AM

Posted By: john/z28jdI think this card has got enough publicity now that it cant be sold to a knowledgable person(aka someone who knows why they are paying a fortune for this card) without them knowing its history.Leons thread about the views that this board gets per day should prove theres alot of reading going on of this board(sell me Old Judge Larry Corcoran cards) and it would be hard for someone not to know what they are getting.The other part is,what would stop someone from taking it out of the holder before they sold it so PSA's label doesnt even come into play? Andy,the only logical thing to do is take it to your grave then you dont have to worry up in card heaven whats going on with the card 100's of years from now.Make some obvious reprints for everyone else to have

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03-23-2005, 08:25 AM

Posted By: Scott Forrestbut what about others they slab? They need a policy and to stick with it; otherwise their slabs lose meaning, I mean they lose more meaning.

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03-23-2005, 08:32 AM

Posted By: barrysloateAdam- You are right, actress cards are cheaper. I wasn't sure if N167 actresses existed. I'm don't think I've seen one.

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03-23-2005, 08:42 AM

Posted By: john/z28jdI always thought they shouldve slabbed altered cards anyway and labeled them with the alteration.I figured thats better than rejecting a card because then they are sending a card back into the market that has no disclosure of the problem(s) it has. Its basically like working at a bank(PSA) and someone(eventual untrusted owner) gives you fake money(altered card) and you hand it back to them and dont do anything else about it,eventually someone is going to get that money(ripped-off) unless you do something about it.

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03-23-2005, 08:42 AM

Posted By: Jay MillerBarry--They exist. You probably didn't notice them because they look alot like the boxers (both dog and fighter species)

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03-23-2005, 08:46 AM

Posted By: barrysloateJohn- That's actually a really good point, but if someone unscrupulous got a card back in a holder labelled "trimmed" they would just break it out, so you are back to square one. In the case of the counterfeit money, it would ultimately be confiscated and destroyed. Could you imagine a grading company refusing to return a trimmed card to the submitter and taking it upon themselves to destroy it. Couldn't imagine anyone getting angry at that.

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03-23-2005, 08:58 AM

Posted By: john/z28jdThe breaking it out of the holder is the point i made in my previous answer before Scotts question. If someone sends a fake card into psa thinking its real they(PSA or any other grading company) should destroy it and give them $1 back to cover cost.An altered card on the other hand cant be equated with counterfeit money and it was just more of an anology rather than just changing the words to protect the innocent. The thing i agree with Barry about most tho was him agreeing with me.I think hes right on the money with that

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03-23-2005, 09:45 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI'm glad we're in agreement. Not too many people agree with me these days. I think I'm on a losing streak.

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03-23-2005, 09:50 AM

Posted By: Scott Forrestsorry, Barry - couldn't resist. edited to add: Leon, should I delete this one as well? I'll try to be much more serious in the future. Sorry about that. edited to add: In any case, this "deviation" has been beneficial to Barry and myself. He just notified me that he's cranking up "Sympathy for the Devil". I, on the other hand, have the Rock and Roll Circus version going. Great stuff, and a worthy soundtrack for an "altered classic cards" documentary if we can get Ken Burns interested.

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03-23-2005, 09:51 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI knew someone would get it. Good work Scott.

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03-23-2005, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Hal LewisI won't dare ask if the Rolling Stones ever appeared on SNL. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-23-2005, 10:18 AM

Posted By: barrysloateLate 70's, with Mick Taylor. I'm done. End of story.

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03-23-2005, 10:33 AM

Posted By: Scott Forrestno fighting, just fun - removed to keep Leon happy. edited by leon to say...I know it was all in fun but folks reading have got pissed before when threads get going in the wrong direction ...that's all edited to add: (don't you like the way I'm keeping all this in one post?) That's weird - we're not publishing a journal. As long as things don't get completely hi-jacked, I don't see the harm. If people can't have some fun here, they'll go read a book instead. I think the key is 'no fighting'.

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03-23-2005, 10:35 AM

Posted By: leonthis sort of stuff got us in hot water last time...let's get back on track please......thanks

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03-23-2005, 10:43 AM

Posted By: Chuck RI think the folks that restored the card did a fabulous job, but the end result is a hobby novelty. The concept of the border of a card being a "mount" for the image is new to me. I understand the general idea of how this restoration was done, but to me a card is a single entity. What if I managed to obtain the top two thirds of a Four Base Hits Kelly and the bottom two thirds of a Four Base Hits Kelly and surgically trimmed and attached them to make something indistinguishable from a Kelly with a deep crease? What exactly have I created? To me it's not an altered card, but two cards attached together, the same as in the example in this thread.

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03-23-2005, 10:50 AM

Posted By: barrysloateI think disclosure is the fairest way to handle a situation such as this, and I don't even think the entire onus falls on the owner because we are all owners of cards for just a short time. There should be more information on the label of the Burkett, and that's assuming we buy the premise that it should be slabbed in the first place. Because this is I believe the first card of this type that PSA has encapsulated, perhaps the whole process was not properly thought through. I just see too many dangers in having a three or four word description on the label which clearly does not encompass all the various steps taken to get this card to its current state. It's the great lack of information present that I find troubling.

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03-23-2005, 12:02 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisBut Barry... isn't SOME warning on the label BETTER than none? If Andy put this in a screw-down holder and sold it to some unknowing soul... then there would be NOTHING to warn the buyer. Granted, someone could very well buy this from Andy and REMOVE it from the slab and pull such a stunt... but at least Andy has shown that it will NOT happen during his ownership of the card. ----------------------- What would be wrong with PSA "slabbing" trimmed cards and LABELING them as such??? Wouldn't that be BETTER than having a bunch of PRO graded trimmed cards out there??? Wouldn't it show us who the TRULY REPUTABLE dealers are?? I know that I would have HUGE RESPECT for a dealer who sold me a card slabbed by PSA as "trimmed"... because he could just as well have sold the card raw and tried to "bluff" his way around the fact that it was trimmed. If people want to PAY for the protection of a slab for a TRIMMED card... and for the "authentication" that comes with it... then I am all for it.

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03-23-2005, 12:04 PM

Posted By: Hal LewisIn fact, I would LOVE to see a TON of PSA slabbed "trimmed" cards appear on the market... because then we would be able to get some sense of how much value a card "loses" when it is trimmed. Right now, people are buying trimmed cards because they think they can fool someone else down the line.

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03-23-2005, 12:20 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI responded to John Dreker earlier that labelling a card "trimmed" is actually better than having someone inadvertently buy a trimmed card, but that if the seller were unscrupulous he would break it out anyway. And as far as Andy is concerned, I have implicit faith in his honesty and I know that even if it weren't slabbed he would never deceive anyone when the time came to sell it (and I would guess if you look closely you can see the work done); however, Jay Miller made a very good point. Andy created a Frankenstein monster here, and while he is free to enjoy it to its fullest and as owner has full rights to restore it as he pleases, it is certainly one-of-a-kind. Do we know of any other vintage card that has had this exact kind of work done to it? I just go with my original premise that the grading services were formed to both grade cards and to reject altered ones. Now they are slabbing altered cards. I don't get it. However, for those like yourself who feel it is better to have it in a slab, you have my blessing. I just think there somehow should be more information on the label. As I said, a card that was a 1/16 inch short and had a crease spooned out would fit the same definition as the label on the Burkett. I think there is the potential for trouble down the road, and I will still stick by my opinion that this type of "card" shouldn't be slabbed. And it would be protected nicely in a screw down holder. What else can I say?

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03-23-2005, 12:23 PM

Posted By: NO! NO! NO!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> PS. That was a NYC smiley. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Back to the salt mine. (no huma spoken heah.)

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03-23-2005, 12:27 PM

Posted By: Rich KleinWant to hear more about the Stones on SNL. I remember watching them in a dorm in Pennsylvania while on a road trip playing ultimate frisbee (I was in real good shape in those days) and they were terrible. Great album the songs came from, terrible acoustics and maybe actually a bit overwhelmed by the whole experience of NOT being in an arena. Regards Rich

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03-23-2005, 12:32 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestYou shall be beaten - shape up! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-23-2005, 12:37 PM

Posted By: barrysloateI promised Leon I would behave, so please everyone, let's just get along. SNL seems to be the code word for trouble; I snuck it in for a fleeting moment but got right back on topic. Let's all of us just move on. Thank you, Barry

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03-23-2005, 01:08 PM

Posted By: Evolution IsCollectors that knew how to grade their cards. The word came down from Mt Olympus, and it sayeth: "There shall be a plastic surgeon, and an authenticator to eliminate all the unnecessary degrees of grading and authentications, .... and the truth shall make you free. It's a Fail Safe against opening up more cans of worms. I Have Spoken!" (followed by a bong)

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03-23-2005, 01:30 PM

Posted By: leonwent back and re-read it and sort of understand...(envisioning a guy with a big bong and banging on it...booooonnnnnggggg)

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03-23-2005, 01:32 PM

Posted By: Rich KleinBringing up memories of my youth which have not been touched in 25 years was quite fun. Now, If i could only remember what vintage cards I should have bought in those years instead of purchasing 1979 Topps Packs. Rich

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03-23-2005, 01:43 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestI was completely joking. I had responded initially to Barry's allusion to the Stones, and received a warning from "the powers that be". I'm all for friendly digressions - keeps the conversation lively - but I'll certainly respect Leon's wishes. Gotta go - too sunny out to stay in here on the computer.

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03-23-2005, 03:09 PM

Posted By: PASJDI claim no expertise in this area, but just as a matter of semantics, the use of the word "authentic" seems perhaps inconsistent with the use of the words "altered" and "trimmed" on the same label.

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03-23-2005, 03:48 PM

Posted By: Max WederNoting the pile of unslabbed Classic Comics/Illustated arising from a misspent youth (when I should have been collecting vintage baseball), I recall that CGC comics will grade comics with a restored label. (<a href="http://www.cgccomics.com/grading" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cgccomics.com/grading</a> ... oh that dreaded purple...) Can anyone familiar with the comic collecting world comment on how this has gone and whether that is a harbinger for the baseball card world? Max (silent confession that I have had the dust jacket restored to my 1933 Who's Who)

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03-23-2005, 05:26 PM

Posted By: warshawlaw1. Given how many times the slabbers mess up, I would NEVER want to give them the discretion to destroy my card if their pimply-faced kid grader has a bad twinkie and decides my card is a fake. I'd sue them and we all know what that results in, don't we, which is why the graders just send them back. 2. Owing to the many scammers who sell altered cards raw, I'd like to see cards slabbed with alterations noted on the labels, as long as the card is authentic. 3. For that matter, I'd like to have the option to have the slabber authenticate the card rather than grade it. 4. For anyone interested, there is a great Rolling Stones Exhibit card from the late 1960s issued as part of the rock and roll series.

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03-23-2005, 05:46 PM

Posted By: Julie(My father's favorite cartoon. Smitty standing by the Grand Canyon says it.) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-23-2005, 05:56 PM

Posted By: barrysloateJulie- you lost me here. Who's getting socked in the jaw and why?

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03-23-2005, 06:57 PM

Posted By: petecldI think what some people don't understand is that a card that is trimmed or altered in some way they are STILL 1000% authentic. If you erase a pencil mark from your AUTHENTIC T206 Honus Wagner it would be ridiculous to say your card is no longer authentic. If you take a T206 card and cut it in 2 pieces . . . you have two AUTHENTIC pieces of a T206 card. Extreme examples: the chopped up items the card companies use for inserts, assuming the articles they use are authentic just by chopping them up into pieces doesn't mean the pieces aren't authentic. . they are just pieces cut from the whole. Another example is the guy who cuts out the little pictures from the guides - the cut out bits are still authentic, just not presented in their original context. As far as comics goes I have yet to experience any collector who is adamantly against the practice CGC does with restored books. For the buyer it is a no loose situation. I think it's great and I really wish SGC had followed their sister company and been the hobby trail blazer and adopted the same practice years ago. Yes, some will say that people can still break the comic/card out and sell as un-restored but it is a poor argument to me since scum will always be scum and there will be nothing you can do about it except be vigilant against it.

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03-23-2005, 07:19 PM

Posted By: Chuck RPete: I agree that the two pieces encapsulated in this slab are authentic to the era and the company, but they are not pieces of the same card. I don't really understand the entity that is being slabbed here and I don't understand how the word mount can be used for a card (yes, I know the image was deposited into a hollowed out depression in the other card). Cards don't have mounts. This has been encapsulated as a Burkett card, but in reality only part of it is a Burkett card. Chuck

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03-23-2005, 09:03 PM

Posted By: Scott ForrestCommunicating the facts is another.

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03-23-2005, 11:30 PM

Posted By: RhysWhy not just call it "Restored" and be done with it. All areas of antiques and collectibles have a restoration process and as long as items are marked that way and sold as such nobody (except for prewar baeball card collectors appearantly) have aproblem with it. Besides, was the original mission statement for PSA or other grading companies to "keep all cards which are not 100% authentic out of holders forever" or was it more likely something like "We want to be able to PROTECT and EVALUATE vintage baseball cards". I would guess it was the latter, so let the grading companies evaluate and protect the cards they get sent and mark them as such. I see no probalem with slabbing any restored, altered, or trimmed cards as long as they are marked as such. I know others disagree, but I think PSA did the right think by slabbing the card.

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03-23-2005, 11:39 PM

Posted By: jay behrensI've long been a proponent of SGC following CGC's lead and using different colored labels for restored/altered cards. There really is no good reason not to. We are just about the only field of collectibles that frowns on resotration. That will eventually change, that I have no doubt about. So SGc may as well take the lead. It will only mean more business for them if they do and are first to offer it as a regualr feature. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-24-2005, 12:55 AM

Posted By: Judge DredJay, Did I understand your post correctly? Does SGC encapsulate cards as authentic and use a different color lablel? Does this mean they will accept an altered card for authentication but not grading?

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03-24-2005, 01:36 AM

Posted By: jay behrensI wish thye did, and there is no reason not to other than current hobby convention. All it will take is one company to do it ona regular basis and everyone else will follow suit. I think right now they didn't want to give it up becuase it a way to pocket a nice chunk of extra cash. To me, there is nothing more annoying than having a card sent back and being out the slabbing cost. They didn't have slab the card, etc, yet they keep the entire fee. This isn't right. They should be offering a free submission on a card that will grade of at least give you credit towards your next submission. Following thelead of CGC and using their system would solve all those problems. Jay I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-24-2005, 11:22 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI acquired probably the rarest item in my collection recently. It is a T229 printers scrap with a Jack Johnson with ghost front and a different boxer back printed off center and upside down. Only problem is that 1/3 of the card is torn away. Remember that fragment of a T206 Wagner some years ago; didn't PSA slab it?