Fun With PSA

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I joined PSA's little club on 2/19 at the S.F. Tristar show in order to submit about 150 cards to be graded. They just called me today (16 days later) to let me know that they made a mistake in the pricing. Instead of $8 per card for my bulk submission, it should have been $15 per card. Their $8 price, unlike the competitor across the street who's pricing guidelines I was familiar with, is only for non-star players. Seeing as though all of teh cards I submitted were hall of famers, they subsequently realized their error. Apparently they consulted Joe Orlando himself who agreed to grade them at $10 per card. So they called to ask me for and additional $300 (the $2 difference times 150 cards). No wonder so many people hate PSA.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>There mistake, they should suck it up and accept the loss. If not, take your business elsewhere.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />Are you serious, Joe Orlando saved this guy $750. For that much money Marcus could have another 50 cards graded. Are we all so selfish that we can't pony up a couple of dollars more per card to cover the cost of properly grading a card?<br /><br />Josh, I'm just Joshing you. I couldn't agree more. PSA should just eat the difference in price. I don't get it. Why is it $7 more to grade a star player. Do they spend more time with a star player card than a mere common? I don't understand the concept. I thought that the graders were basically trained monkeys with no card experience other than assigning an unbiased opinion as to the condition of the card. <br /><br />If I were Joe Orlando I'd be a bit concerned because it appears that one of his unknowing, unbiased trained monkeys is learning something if they have the ability to determine who the star players are. PSA better watch out or someone might submit a truly valuable card (like a T206 Magie error for example) and it might disappear because a trained monkey figured out that it's worth something. <br /><br />I have to stop responding to these type of threads or someone might get the idea that I don't care too much for PSA.

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Posted By: <b>rman444</b><p>Hello - I'm a newbee, but have been lurking around the message boards over the past few weeks trying to learn as much as possible. When I read this thread, I just had to add my recent PSA experience, also at the SF Cow Palace Show:<br /><br />I wanted to grade a total of 6 cards:<br /><br />3 regular sized cards<br />2 tall boys (55 doubleheaders)<br />1 reslab due to the case pinching the card (case of appropriate size was not selected for the encasing)<br /><br />The cost to grade would have been 1) 3x15 plus $15 for shipping and handling, and 2) 2x15 plus $15 for shipping and handling, and 3) $5 for the reslab plus $15 for shipping and handling.<br /><br />$15 x 3 = $45 for shipping and handling?? for 6 total cards? I was told that they all get graded and slabbed at different places. . . <br /><br />I decided just to do the reslab as I was concerned about the safety of the card - you would think that PSA would have done this for free as they were the ones who initially put the card in a case which could potentially damage the card. The person in the back of their tent instructed me that I needed to pay the $5 plus the $15 for shipping and insurance. The worker-bee helping me at the front of the table turned around and gave his boss? a crazy look like "are you nuts - we are charging this guy for our mistake?" I paid the $20. What are you going to do.

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Posted By: <b>ms4epg1</b><p>Isn't that a breach-of-contract on their part since the price has already been negotiated and agreed upon and services have already started?

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Posted By: <b>hrbaker</b><p>I have always thought the tiered costs assigned to the "value" of the card was nuts. The grading companies are trying to participate in the after market "graded" value of the card. I can understand the different costs associated with the submitter's choice of service (1 day, 2 day, 5 day, whenever) but to charge a sliding scale for essentially the same service based upon the value of the card is nuts. What if you submitted a high value card and it comes back as altered and essentially low value, do they change the fee - no. This is like going to a car wash in a Cadillac and being charged three times what the guy in front of you in the Ford Focus paid for the same service. Oh well.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>My good friend, George Adam Ignacio (he actually goes by his initials), works about a block away and is going to pick up the cards and take care of it. <br /><br />I had the same experience as rman144. I had 5 "tall boys" that I wanted to include as part of my bulk submission, but PSA wanted $15 per card since they were in a different category than the 150 normal-sized cards I was submitting. "Unless you give us 50 oversized cards, it's not part of a bulk submission of oversized cards." Plus, the customer service rep wasn't sure whether or not PSA would grade about 8 of my cards (cuban, exhibits, etc.).

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>that, in theory (don't laugh), the more valuable the card they are grading, the bigger the hit if they're wrong and have to honor some sort of guaranty. Also and perhaps in tandem, this would lead to closer scrutiny and more time if not graders expended in the process.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />That's an interesting theory. Recently someone had a T206 Heine Wagner graded by PSA. The only problem was that someone at PSA typed in Hans Wagner on the PSA label. The person that had the card put it on ebay and listed it for sale. PSA got wind of it and "de-listed" the card from it's database. It was their error. From this I would guess that "de-listing" is a policy they could use if ever caught in this predicament again. I don't think that they are in the business of "doing the right thing" when it comes to mislabels and misgrades (or even mis-authentication). <br /><br />I believe that autographs are also priced in tiers based on the demand for the autograph. If they mis-authenticated something I doubt that they would pay for the mistake. <br /><br />Is there such a thing as the PSA Guarantee? If so, what is it? My guess is that they guarantee that they will do their best to accurately grade/authenticate your item and they are guaranteed to take your money. <br /><br />Does this make them bad? No, it makes them savvy business people that care more about the bottom line than the product/service offered.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I don't disagree with you. I believe they may be on the hook whether they have an express guaranty or not, depending on the nature of their error. The Heinie Wagner isn't really a good example, as you're talking about mislabeling a common for what is probably the most popular/valuable card in existence, and certainly one that is highly recognizable. My point was simply that because they could end up paying for their mistakes, they'd want to take more time examining the higher valued cards and hence may charge more for the service.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>to get satisfaction. PSA is a thoroughly scummy outfit, and getting worse by the day.<br /><br />I had a snafu with SGC recently (they did not grade three cards they were supposed to grade). First of all, the cards were returned to me with a credit slip for the next order; it wasn't "sorry dude, our mistake you eat it". Second, when I sent an email to customer service pointing out the error, they told me to keep the credit for the mistake to use on my next order, resubmit the cards for free to be graded and they'd pay the return shipping costs. Now THAT is a class outfit that understands customer service.

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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>I spent one year as a PSA member. I joined because I had just purchased a Jim Thorpe Sport Kings card that I would say was EX-MT except for some dark staining on the back. I was guessing that, according to PSA's guidelines, the card should come back to me as a 6(ST), but I suspected that their description of how they use qualifiers was incorrect and that, even though it would surely receive the ST qualifier, they would knock it down on the number grade as well because of the stain. I spoke with one of their customer service reps, and she told me basically the same thing as the website -- the numerical grade given is the same as it would be if the qualifier flaw were completely ignored. This is clearly not true. After all, you never see a 10(OC), but there should be plenty of them if the characteristic for which the qualifier was given is not additionally factored into the grade the card receives. I submitted the card anyway and got neither a 6(ST) nor a 5(ST) nor anything else of the sort, but a "? AUTHENTIC". My question is about those 10's. Is there a legitimate reason for there not being such thing as a PSA 10 with a qualifier? Or am I wrong? Do they exist? Surely some of the 9(OC) cards out there have nothing to distinguish them from PSA 10's other than the centering. I realize that gem mint pre-war cards are essentially non-existent anyway, but this issue is the one thing that's always really bugged me about PSA. Let me rephrase. It's the one thing that has most confused me about PSA's grading system.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>I was with Mark at Tri Star, coming back to him at PSA every 20-30 minutes as he sat there getting raked over the coals by low-normal ex-highschool students who knew NOTHING about cards, or grading. Only money. After he had spent well over a k, we went to the GAI booth--where three intelligent adults, who could tell you in advance what your card would grade (and even told ME about 3 of mine, when I wasn't getting them graded), were moving around behind a table. One or two of these (nameless to protect their good names) people had worked for PSA, and had quit--to protect their good names (I thnought I just said that). <br /><br />Of course, PSA saves some money hiring people who don't know anything about baeball cards to do intake at shows. For the time being, at any rate.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Compare the number of PSA graded cards with SGC and GAI on ebay. Despite all their problems, they must be doing something right.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>What are they doing right? <br />Spending a ton of money, which they raised from their public stock offering, on advertising and promotion. The other companies cannot compete with the deep pockets of PSA. So the advertising buys a certain perception with the public about the company.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I disagree Richard. If they were doing that bad a job with grading and/or customer service, people would take their business elsewhere, deep pockets or no deep pockets. People are aware of the alternatives, and people are not sheep. Dealers submit because the cards sell, and collectors buy because they want PSA graded cards. A close friend of mine is a dealer with one of the largest inventories of graded cards in the country. 90 percent of his inventory and his submissions are PSA. There is a reason for it.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The Soviet Union was once the 2nd most powerful nation in the world. It will catch up with them and when it does I don't want to be caught with many PSA cards on my hands.<br /><br />The only good thing ever mentioned about PSA on htis board is that they generally get a little more money than the other companies, but the gap is slowly closing in the vintage field.<br />I personally would rather pay some that is going to take care me than taking my chacne getting shafted by someone.<br /><br />Lee<br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Judging by most of the statements I have read on this board, there does not seem to be any justifiable reason for their popularity. The public is buying into the perception that the advertising creates. <br />The card graders, on this site, have been called trained monkeys, the autograph authentication questions have been gone over ad infinitum. <br />The public has created the demand, but the public has been fooled before.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I don't know anything about autographs, but I have owned thousands of PSA graded cards over the years, many of which I submitted myself, and while of course there were instances I disagreed (both ways), by and large their grading is accurate and I have never had an issue with their customer service. I have seen nothing to suggest to me that SGC or GAI are any better; I do own some of their cards and I have no axe to grind with either company as I find they are accurate too -- although I think GAI can sometimes be high with their half grades, and SGC, at least in the past, was too forgiving of centering. But maybe someone should alert Levi and Champs and Bums and Quality Cards and Ninth Inning and Keppler Enterprises and Mint State and all the other dealers whose inventory is principally PSA that they ought to get out before the earthquake hits. Richard, you may be right that this board likes the other grading companies better, but I don't think that perception is generally shared by dealers or collectors.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Alas, this thread is called <font color="blue">FUN WITH PSA</font> - lets all take our pokes and have some <font color="blue">FUN WITH PSA</font>.

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Posted By: <b>Mike P.</b><p>There was a news report that was ran a few years ago in California(I only know this from ebaumsworld) about car whistler tips. Basically, you install this contraption inside your exhaust that will generate a loud and irritating whistle sound. Apparently this was a popular thing. I remember in the newsclip that there was a guy who ran an auto shop who had no qualms installing these things even though he voiced his own dislike for them. He basically said that as long as people are paying money to have it done he'll keep selling them. I hope that you can see the correlation I am trying to make. These shops that have a higher inventory of PSA cards have them because they know that they bring in the bigger money and from a business sense I guess I can't really blame them. If they knew that SGC, GAI or whoever else for that matter brought in more money then I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that they would have a higher inventory of those cards as well, or at least make the switch to attain more of the others. I don't think there is much loyalty with dealers in regard to graded cards, it's all about the almighty $$$!

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>the OTHER dealers, collectors and etc, are wrong?<br /><br />I'm not saying GAI and SGC are anywhere near perfect, but it would be nice to know, if i were getting my cards graded, that SOMEWHERE in the company there was a certain amount of intelligence and consistancy--wait till Mark posts the END of his story!<br /><br />Has nobiody but me noticed that Mastro, in the last 3 auctions, has many. many more SGC and GAI graded cards than PSA--which used to be about the only grading company they'd use?

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Posted By: <b>Cap</b><p>Fun with PSA? Where is the ball crawl?<br /><br />Truth of the matter is that for the most part, I'm rather pleased with PSA and PSA/DNA. Is that wrong to say?<br /><br />If PSA/DNA authenticates 95 out of 100 items correctly, we tend to look at those 5 items that they may have made a mistake on and critique them. Same with cards. Nobody is perfect. Why aren't we critiquing those authenticators who authenticate 95% of the items that are purely fraudulent or fraudulent graders who give 10's to bent cards and repos?<br /><br />Cap<br /><br /><br><br>Well, I quit my job so I could work alone, Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes- Bob Dylan.

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Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>Although I only collect pre-war boxing for the most part, I find SGC and GAI to be the most knowledgeable and customer-service oriented grading companies out there. Out of the top 3 though, I believe SGC to be the "small time collector's grading company" or the "mom and pop store" of card grading...much to their credit.<br /><br />I see third party grading as an occasional necessity for high dollar cards where a difference of 1 grade could result in hundreds of dollars of value being added to the card; rare cards, or in another case, the issue of reprints...if you have an original, it is nice for a third party to deem it so.<br /><br />PSA has their registry, which has a lot to do with fun and friendly competition, but also has a lot to do with an addiction to be #1, ego, pettiness, and extreme competition. This is where I find card grading and graded card registries to be a joke. Take away PSAs registry, and you literally take away their top spot in the graded card hobby world.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I would also add that the reason for the dealer preference for psa (in addition to the higher price that psa cards bring) could just have something to do with the rumored preferential treatment given to large customers by psa. I realize that there is no hard proof of this, but they are the only grading company ever associated with such a practice.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I agree with Josh K. Just look at the great treatment I got with my bulk order.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Sorry Mark, one bulk order does not make you a "preferred" customer. Those dealers are submitting bulk orders every other week.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I make no bones about my dislike for PSA. I find their service to be crappy, their holders sub-standard and their business practices abhorrent. Be that as it may, i have to disagree with those who assert that PSA is biggest because it is best. The group here is an unusually perceptive and intelligent bunch, which is why the relative merits of the various services are debated time ande again and why the net result is that PSA comes up short on many, or even most, posters' lists of services. <br /><br />The ugly fact is that people ARE sheep. Most are too lazy, greedy and short-sighted to understand what to do when a decision requiring even the slightest exercise of intelligence comes their way and are too lazy to bother to protect themselves. Examples abound. I see potential clients all the time carrying a credit card balance and having cash in a savings account, or running up staggering credit card debts for consumer luxuries that they cannot possibly repay short of a lotto hit. Visit Las Vegas and listen to the idiots stacked three deep at the roulette and craps tables spouting nonsense about systems or numbers being "due" on games where each spin of tbe ball or roll of the dice carries the same mathematical odds as any other. Or following asinine myths about hot slot machines and overdue jackpots. I see people of modest means all the time sued for non-payment of their basic necessities or in danger of eviction who walk into my office with elaborate manicures, hairstyles and the latest and most expensive cell phones and PDAs that I would be hard-pressed to afford. Most people have no understanding of the taxes they pay. Homeowners in condo associations time and again voice their total ignorance of the fact that they own the place and have to maintain it; I have heard time and again impassioned speeches at homeowners association meetings from people not wanting a special assessment to fix catastrophic damage to the complex because "the association" or "the corporation" should pay it. Every car dealership in California has a big sign posted in the showroom and in every sales office that says there is no cancellation or cooling off period on car deals, as does every contract for sale or lease, yet I get 2-3 calls a month from buffoons looking to get out of their car deals and professing complete ignorance of these warnings. The number of people who come to me having signed contracts without even trying to read them is staggering; I see people do it all the time. Home purchasers time and again present me with signed statements to the effect that they have read and understood a disclosure when they never even bothered to read it. Loan officers tell me that I am the only person they have ever seen actually read mortgage documentation. People sign whatever crap is thrown in front of them at a medical office without a question. I was appalled that the standard contract presented to me at the hospital when I recently had some surgery called for me to pay whatever the hospital felt like charging me if my insurance declined coverage. I hand prospective clients a retainer agreement and ask them to look it over; half the time they sign it unread and I then have to spend half an hour reading them the terms and explaining them so I feel good about the transaction. I did this just yesterday with a doctor who flat out refused to read the agreement he was signing. I see homeowners who have been raped by their contractors who never bothered to check whether their contractors were licensed, had records, or even to sign a contract, when hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake. A corporate client called me yesterday to tell me that he had ignored my multiple letters and calls to the effect that he needed to sign his registration paperwork and gee, can he now get out of the penalties, interest and fees he faces. Manufacturers rebates are typically used by less than 10% of the purchasers, despite the fact that they are effectively throwing away the money by letting the rebates lapse. All this occurs without the added pressure of the vast BS machinery of advertising and public relations. Half the people in this country believe that Saddam Hussein had a role in 9/11 when the 9/11 commission itself said otherwise. And people here still argue that the average person looking to have cards slabbed makes an intelligent choice to go with PSA over another service based on a careful analysis of the relative merits of the services? Not even close to the truth. Advertising and inertia win out most of the time. PSA enjoyed a virtual monopoly for quite some time. which gave them an insurmountable lead in terms of total cards graded and PR and advertising. All props to the marketers behind PSA who came up with and successfully executed the idea first. But please don't argue that PSA is the biggest so it must be the best, as there is simply no objective evidence to establish that is the case.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>For those of you new to the board and are wondering why there is such a heavy slant towards SGC, it's because they have knowledgable people running the business and tend to cater to us vintage collectors. The fact they use custom die cut inserts is also a huge plus. No cards floating around in condoms inside a an ill fitting holder. Vintage cards are not condusive to regualr bulk submissions. PSA has a huge foothold in the modern card market and have been around longer than anyone else. this is what helps them the most. It's obvious that this is the only market they really care about, as evidenced by the silly card condoms that used on many vintage cards.<br /><br />SGC has a classy looking holder and custom fit insert that securely holds the card in place. That, coupled with great customer service has won over most of us here.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I still can't figure out how anyone can get commons from the 50's to present graded unless you know you are going to get a high grade and are not getting charged what the common guy pays. I am amazed to see cards that book at $1 or less being in graded holders.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>"The group here is an unusually perceptive and intelligent bunch, which is why the relative merits of the various services are debated time ande again and why the net result is that PSA comes up short on many, or even most, posters' lists of services."<br /><br />I guess someone should break the news to Messrs. Fogel, Merkel, Luchious, Branca, Crandall, etc. the news that the people on this Board are smarter than they are. Or maybe they are sheep too, notwithstanding their obvious success in life.

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Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>Jay...I just reached lower middle class...I am now looked down upon the rich chicks...so which is better upper lower class, or lower middle class?<br /><br />Edited to add: I think cost should be a very important factor as well. I feel SGCs and GAIs pricing to be the most reasonable. If PSA can take a 200.00 vintage card for example and place it in a holder without borders and shading, slap in some saran wrap or whatever in there, and charge you extra for it, I feel the consumer is simply getting ripped off.<br /><br />PSA comes nowhere close to SGC and GAI in their ability to properly identify and label the vintage cards.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I haven't yet canonized Saints Fogel, Merkel, Luchious, Branca, Crandall, etc. Just because someone with a lot of money chose to spend it on PSA cards does not make PSA good. For every person on your list I can cite another advanced collector who will not use PSA.

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Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>I think the real problem with SGC is their grades. People would rather have a 10 or 9 than an 8.8 or 8.2. Some people buy cards instead of holders, but many just look at numbers...

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I haven't canonized them yet either, but I wouldn't mind having their collections. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There isn't enough money to be made grading vintage cards, so they could really care less about us. The money is in the shiney new stuff. That's what their holders are made for.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Don't you just hate it when you go to card shows, and most of the booths have showcases that glow in the dark, from the cards inside them. Or there are so many bogus autographs on the table that you wanna scream. Not like the old days is it? That is why I stopped doing shows, the fun days at shows are long gone.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>actually, I find it convenient. Used to be that you had to scrutinize every table at the National, which is very difficult to do given the size. Now with so many tables of modern garbage combined with so many tables of "big time" dealers who are not worth dealing with and so many auctioneers who have absolutely nothing to sell, I was able to cover the National thoroughly in two days. This way on a quick walk-by I can write off large swaths of booths as having nothing of interest to me.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>afternoon's table crawling to an hour or less.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>In the Dallas area it's even faster. You walk into a show, and if you walk straight in and don't stop, you will run into Roger N.'s table. You see if he's picked up anything new, peruse his showcases, then turn around and leave. You rest assured knowing you have looked at all of the good vintage stuff....It makes for about a 20 minute show....regards (sometimes my wife even waits in the car).....

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>i agree with warshawlaw's analysis that SGC is top drawer in grading.<br />my experience with SGC has been consistently good even when I gripe about<br />the rigor of their grading ('cause i know they are correct).<br />i must say what impresses me the most (and what makes this board a mini-<br />university) is warshawlaw's critique of culture and cogently argued<br />philosophical anthropology. i knew most of what he said ,but hearing it all<br />at once, my eyes were opened with a little less rose on the external lenses.<br />i'm incubating it, warshawlaw, and am grateful to you and the rest of the<br />wise crowd on this board.<br /><br />best<br /><br />barry arnold<br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>we all do our part to keep the ivory tower in touch with the real world <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />One disclaimer: I did make that post while unable to sleep due to the flu (see the 3:59 a.m. time) so I was unusually irascible right then. I don't normally bite the heads off live animals, so to speak.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Adam is a geek? I thought you were a lawyer. :-p<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Tom</b><p>What I would like to know why is the moderator of network54 defends PSA? I sent two photos to him of a Jim Thorpe card but he only wanted to show your good folks the one he wanted for you to look at. He never showed you the backs of the card. Just Monday, I sent a 1907 Detroit Base Ball Club Photo to him to place on this network did he, certainly not. By the way when is time up for being the moderator? The sooner the better as far as I am concerned. I hope he does not treat his customers like he his treated me. If so he would be out of business in a New York second not minute. There is nothing good about PSA/Collector Universe, but you people just do not get it. There is only two possibly either PSA is smarter than we give them credit are we are a bunch of dummies for letting them get over on us. All I hear is PSA did this to me or they did that to me. People will due anthing as long as you let them. I still think a class action law suit is in order and let the chips fall where they may.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Why don't you tell me who the members of the class are, and what their cause of action is, and what their damages are, and who would be an appropriate class representative. Do that and as a lawyer who handles a lot of class actions I will give you my honest assessment of the chances that such a class could be certified, or prevail.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>The moderator seems to be allowing all types of comments about PSA on this forum. I don't understand Tom's complaint.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author<br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>In addition, why dont you just post your own pictures Tom - there is really no need to send them to Bill to do it for you.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>A class action lawsuit was started against ebay a few years ago. The claim was that collectors were damaged by the purchase of bogus autographs. That was very easy to prove. However, ebay claimed they were only a bulletin board for selling and were not a real auction house, so the laws that applied to auction houses did not apply to them.<br />The judge bought ebay's argument and the case was tossed.<br />I worked as a consultant with the law firm, Krause and Kalfayan, which brought the suit on behalf of the collectors who were robbed. <br />I don't know what grounds there would be to sue PSA in a class action but maybe somebody else on the board can tell me that.<br />I don't know how successful any class action could be in this hobby.<br />--<br /><br />I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author<br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Tom</b><p>What the problem is a about filing a class action law suit is the people that is holding PSA cards do not want to loose out. If indeed one was filed a PSA/Collector Universe went to court and loss everyone would lose and PSA know that’s. The very first time I every spoke to PSA and question there integrity as a 3rd party grading company Matt, told me that there has been alot of people trying to go after them, but know one has succeed as of yet. There was a person at PSA I'm sure this forum remember Peter Ma, I believe without a doubt that Joe Orlando told him to get rid of this guy (talking about myself) we got what we wanted the original Jim Thorpe card. Another thing I would like to know is about a person name Frank K.Walker that went by fkw707 what has happened to him? The reason I ask on June 10, 2003 at 645:27PM CST I received an email and stated that my 1916 Jim Thorpe card was not real. The wording in the messages is like 95% of all cards with a wide gap is a reprint (just letting you know in case no one else told you). I have right now two cards with the wide gap and are real as real can be. Three things are very important to the identification of a fake 1916 Jim Thorpe card is the paper stock, ink and an extremely thin line that runs just above his ankles. If you card has the the thin line that card is a fake or reprint call it what you like, but to say the wide gap/narrow gap is a reprint or fake is just not true.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>No one has been successful??? You might want to look my case up, I sued those scums and WON! PSA is a pathetic company that puts NO emphasis on customer service. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Shannon</b><p> Amen Dan, I would never send anything into PSA to grade there track record speaks for itself.

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>In spite of what Warshawlaw says about common sense, I refuse to sell my cards so that I can pay my electric bill. Boy, it's dark in here!<br />Rick

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>I don't think they are invulnerable in a lawsuit. They have lost to Dan and they lost the big one for $600K. Right after Joe Orlando got on the stand, they settled for $600K. From what I read Orlando got on the stand in Dan's case also and they wound up losing.<br />They also have an unsatisfactory rating with the Better Business Bureau, which should be a nice juicy piece of information at any trial.<br /><br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author<br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>Mike P.</b><p>Not that I didn't believe you but I decided to check out the BBB to see what they had to say, very interesting...a big fat "D!"<br /><br /><a href="http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?CompanyID=130835 67&hAKAID=13&hAddrID=10" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.labbb.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Business/CompanyReportPage_Expository.aspx?CompanyID=130835 67&hAKAID=13&hAddrID=10</a>

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Posted By: <b>Tim Mayer</b><p>i know it will make no difference, but i give my money to SGC because they treat me right and not to PSA cause they haven't <br /><br />to me it's that simple. my money makes no difference to them I know, but its the point and I hope others do the same.<br /><br />eventually they will shape up or another company will take their business.<br /><br />I compare it to telecom. <br /><br />I used to work for AT&T, they were the biggest and the best,,they treated customers poorly, stockholders worse, and to today still can't bill right.<br /><br />they were bought out by a company that was once a small part of their business,,,<br /><br />I hope PSA gets it as I think they are good graders, and still but cards in their slabs,,I just wont send my own cards in to them.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>only 1 below (there are triple As, triple Bs, etc.)

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Posted By: <b>mcavoy</b><p>In the bond ratings world, a D is like boiler room stuff, pennies on the $1 face value<br /><br />You late 60s former radicals, what ever happened to the good decent society you were going to build for us young 'uns? Oh, and Julie, cracking the slabs doesn't count.

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Posted By: <b>Mike P.</b><p>...there are 9 ratings above the D, not 15.<br /><br />AAA<br />AA<br />A<br />BBB<br />BB<br />B<br />CCC<br />CC<br />C<br />D<br />F<br />NR

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>I am sure Joe Orlando must be proud of this D grade.<br />You have to have really abused some customers to get a D from the BBB.<br />---<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author<br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss