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View Full Version : A question of credibility (Bushing's Degree)


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03-02-2005, 11:59 AM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[deleted]

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03-02-2005, 12:23 PM
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>My thoughts:<br /><br />1) He must not have a Master's Degree.<br /><br />or <br /><br />2) His Master's Degree was in some are that is so IRRELEVANT to card grading that Mastro figured to eliminate it as "useless puffery."<br /><br />3) If he does NOT have a Master's Degree in ANY area and was just "lying" about it... then this does tend to lend a spectre of doubt to a man whose entire livelihood depends on his credibility. <br /><br />Hopefully we can get an answer soon.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-02-2005, 12:35 PM
Posted By: <b>Or Maybe</b><p>Just a thought. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-02-2005, 12:37 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 01:24 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>If I were his or his employer's attorney, I would recommend that it be deleted from any published bio, even if true, unless the Masters degree is in something that pretty cleanly ties into authentication (is there such a degree available?). Otherwise, it creates at least an impression in the minds of the uninformed that a pertinent degree exists which by itself helps to somehow elevate Mr. Bushing's standing. I would not want to give a prospective disgruntled customer ammunition to say that he relied upon the degree in the bio as carrying some significance, and be left to fight over whether that reliance was reasonable, unless the degree was in fact germane to the service Bushing was being asked to perform.<br /><br />In short, it's likely that little would be gained by including it, and potentially more could be lost, so out it goes.

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03-02-2005, 01:52 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Did any of you ever rely on Bushing's claim that he had an unspecified Master's degree? Obviously not. So WHO CARES?? There is plenty of material out there for conspiracy theorists and get-a-lifers (and I include myself in those categories at least sometimes), but come on.

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03-02-2005, 02:03 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 02:08 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Joe P.'s post was a JOKE -- "BS" -- get it? Well enjoy the witchhunt.

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03-02-2005, 02:09 PM
Posted By: <b>al davis</b><p>his position as a so-called expert is based on his credibility and honesty. he has clearly attempted to mislead the public by obviously implying that his degree lends relevance to his ability to authenticate. as far as i'm concerned, there can be no doubt that this type of behavior is part of his character and extends into all of his dealings. to think otherwise would be naive.

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03-02-2005, 02:13 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]<br />

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03-02-2005, 02:14 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>WOW we have now psychoanalyzed Dave Bushing, and concluded that dishonesty infects all his business dealings, based on a poster's representation that Mastro's website description of him was changed (and without any knowledge whatsoever about whether Mr. Bushing was involved in the original description or the change, or, in fact, whether Mr. Bushing does indeed have a Master's Degree). Nice.

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03-02-2005, 02:18 PM
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>leaving it in there serves no useful puropse that I can see, and can simply lead to all this utter speculation, and potentially claims of reliance? Did he or didn't he; what kind of degree, what level of degree, etc.<br /><br />Hey what's done is done, and if he intended to mislead with that in his bio or it had the effect regardless, then perhaps some consequences will flow from that. But I see no harm in removing it now, nor do I see the removal as some sort of "ethical violation" by itself.

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03-02-2005, 02:25 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]<br />

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03-02-2005, 02:25 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Where did this go:?<br /><br />Sportico will have all bats, gloves, and equipment authenticated by Dave Bushing of Global Authentication free of charge to our consignors. <br /><br />

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03-02-2005, 02:26 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>How about this. If and when you find out he doesn't have a masters degree you come back and report that he doesn't have a masters. Until that time, I don't understand the point of having a thread based on the premise "I don't know and haven't looked into it, but it might be possible that some guy doesn't have a masters."<br />

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03-02-2005, 02:29 PM
Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Have you considered David's method? Perhaps you should confirm this before bashing a the guy on a public fourm.

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03-02-2005, 02:34 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 02:41 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 02:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>You are questioning a man's credibility and integrity. Even posed as a hypothetical, that can be damaging to his reputation. Do what you want. I would have tried to call SCDA or Bushing before posting.

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03-02-2005, 02:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Questioning a man's credibility, who trades primarilly on his credibility, appears to me to be a legitimate inquiry.

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03-02-2005, 02:55 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p> BTW, my degree is in General Studies....so that makes me an expert in nothing <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> and I can prove it .......later <br /><br />edited as we have the answer on the Masters....but I still can prove I am an expert at nothing....

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03-02-2005, 03:08 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>The comparison in the first post in the thread, it appears to me, is between two different websites, not a "before and after" from the same website.

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03-02-2005, 03:24 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I wrote articles for two different publications where the editor added a brief bio of the the author (me). For one, the editor asked me to write a short bio. For the other, the editor wrote the bio on his initiative and I didn't know there was a bio until I saw it published.<br /><br />So I can tell you first hand that a person can have little to no input into what is used or omitted in his bio, may not even be aware that a bio is being written and may not even like the bio that was written.

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03-02-2005, 03:26 PM
Posted By: <b>Howie</b><p>When Did You Stop Beating Your Wife?

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03-02-2005, 03:28 PM
Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Indeed. I have given seminars where I have specifically emailed my curriculum vitae. When introduced, the hosts inadvertently changed or added things not in my CV.

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03-02-2005, 03:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"WOW we have now psychoanalyzed Dave Bushing, and concluded that dishonesty infects all his business dealings, based on a poster's representation that Mastro's website description of him was changed (and without any knowledge whatsoever about whether Mr. Bushing was involved in the original description or the change, or, in fact, whether Mr. Bushing does indeed have a Master's Degree). Nice." <br /><br />Seriously, you know SCDA reads this board (hi, Troy). You know Mastro reads this board (hi, Brian). Yesterday Vikes starts a thread questioning whether Bushing actually has a Master's Degree as stated on his bio on Mastro's website. Today that Master's degree has been deleted from his bio. <br /><br />You don't think there's anything to this? And if Vikes is on to something, you don't think that's further damaging to Bushing's credibility? <br /><br />Maybe Dave's good friends Lee and Jay can find out if Dave really has a Master's degree. My curiosity has been piqued. <br />

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03-02-2005, 03:46 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I am bothered if significant alterations are made to cards but not disclosed. I expressed those concerns with regard to the Keeler card a while back. But even assuming Mastro changed the description of Mr. Bushing's biography, and I see no evidence of that given that the comparison posted here was between TWO DIFFERENT WEBSITES, I would not read anything sinister into it without a lot more facts (maybe they made a mistake, for example). And I CERTAINLY would not (as at least one poster did) start casting aspersions on Mr. Bushing's credibility based on an apparent disparity between two versions of his biography on a matter I consider to be of no relevance to his qualifications. I am not defending Mr. Bushing, I have no basis on which to do so, and indeed I have some remaining questions about the DiMaggio bat episode, but this thing about the Master's degree seems to me to be a tempest in a teapot.

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03-02-2005, 03:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"But even assuming Mastro changed the description of Mr. Bushing's biography, and I see no evidence of that given that the comparison posted here was between TWO DIFFERENT WEBSITES, I would not read anything sinister into it without a lot more facts (maybe they made a mistake, for example)." <br /><br />Yeah, but that doesn't matter. One site says he does. One site doesn't (and was perhaps changed only recently). So, the question is, does he have a Master's degree? And if not, why is an auction house stating that he does? <br /><br />Your points are well-taken (I think this is more comical than sinister), but it does add legitimate fuel to the debate.

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03-02-2005, 03:50 PM
Posted By: <b>JT</b><p>Actually, if you do a Google search, you can find that Bushing's profile was in fact changed on this "roster" page. Compare the current page with Google's "cached" page.<br /><br />Current:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Our%20Roster" target="_new">http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Our%20Roster</a><br /><br />Cached:<br /><br /><a href="http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:0goFjDfLhGEJ:www.mastronet.com/index.cfm%3Faction%3DDisplayContent%26ContentName% 3DOur%2520Roster+%22dave+bushing%22+masters+degree&hl=en">bio</a><br /><br />The other roster profiles mention these degrees:<br />*He holds a Bachelor's degree from Waynesburg College<br />*Mark holds a Bachelors degree in Finance from DePaul University<br />*Kevin has been active in the hobby since 1980 while obtaining a dual degree in Economics and Religious Studies at University of California, Santa Barbara<br />*Six-year U.S. Navy veteran (aircraft carrier service); holds Master's degree in HRM.<br />*Khyber holds degrees in English and French with minors in philosophy and international studies<br /><br />I don't think you can use the argument that Bushing's was removed because of lack of relevance.<br /><br />Disclaimer: I've never bought anything from Bushing, but I've always considered him a competent professional. The fact that no one has offered a reasonable explanation does, in my mind, threaten his credibility. <br /><br />[edited to fix horrendously long link]

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03-02-2005, 03:58 PM
Posted By: <b>mcavoy</b><p>From a similar google search. See: The HSC Top 100. Mr. Bushing is in a tie for #65:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.hscpub.com/EnterTitleContinuationofHSC100.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.hscpub.com/EnterTitleContinuationofHSC100.htm</a><br /><br />"65T. Dave Bushing, Bat, Glove & Equipment Authenticator, MastroNet, Inc. 3 <br /><br /><br /><br />Billed by MastroNet as the number one authority and authenticator of bats and gloves. Dave has a Masters degree and has published several books on equipment, including Vintage Sports Equipment with Krause Publications, MastroNet Reference and Price Guide for Collecting Game Used Bats and pocket identification and value guides to gloves and bats. According to MastroNet, Dave selected as the repository of the Louisville Slugger archives and has all records for every bat ever made for any player of note, with this information not otherwise available. Dave is regularly requested for his expertise by collectors, dealers, institutions and other auctions to validate their items."

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03-02-2005, 04:01 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Can anyone from Mastronet comment?

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03-02-2005, 04:12 PM
Posted By: <b>al davis</b><p>"a matter I consider to be of no relevance to his qualifications". it may not be relevant to his ability to authenticate, but it sure is central to his credibility.

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03-02-2005, 04:22 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>"...he has clearly attempted to mislead the public by obviously implying that his degree lends relevance to his ability to authenticate. as far as i'm concerned, there can be no doubt that this type of behavior is part of his character and extends into all of his dealings. to think otherwise would be naive."<br /><br />I suggest that before you attack a person in this fashion, suggesting not only that he attempted to mislead the public but that "all his dealings" are tainted, you make sure you have the facts. This is one of the most irresponsible statements I have ever read.

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03-02-2005, 04:28 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>...

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03-02-2005, 04:34 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>David,<br /><br />I agree with your deleted remarks. Let's give David Bushing the benefit of the doubt until we learn more.

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03-02-2005, 04:38 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Michael, the original post had four periods, but I felt that might come across as garish and edited it down to three.

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03-02-2005, 04:44 PM
Posted By: <b>al davis</b><p>sure, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. we should also assume that he has no conflict of interest. while we're at it, let's forget the trivial mistakes he's recently made authenticating big-ticket items. after all, he seems to be a nice guy and what's more, we'll feel good about ourselves.

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03-02-2005, 04:59 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Aldavis,<br /><br />There is no question in my mind that David Bushing has a conflict of interest. That issue is separate from this one. If you can prove that David Bushing does not, in fact, have a Master's degree and that the language was added to the Mastro website by his own request or notation, then you have a legitimate complaint about his integrity. Absent that, you have mere speculation.

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03-02-2005, 05:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Cap</b><p>I'm seeing a lot of this lately, especially with Jimmy Spence, PSA/DNA and now Bushing. <br /><br />Take the leaders in their field (we can agree to disagree here) and knock them off their peg. By knocking them off their peg, there will simply be a new leader and then we can try and knock them off their peg. It's a circle. We don't know if Bushing did anything wrong. What if he's too ashamed to display his Master's in 'Macramae'? <br /><br />More important, did anyone see the link to the HSC100 list from 2002? What in the hell is that?<br /><br />Jimmy Spence and Larry Fritch are tied with a bunch of others at #95, Coach's Corner is at #81, Mickey Mantle and Dave Bushing are tied at #65 and Peyton Manning is at #31. <br /><br />Cheers from the snow filled East!<br /><br />Cap<br /><br /><br><br>Yes, I received your letter yesterday. (About the time the door knob broke). When you asked how I was doing. Was that some kind of joke?- Bob Dylan

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03-02-2005, 05:40 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Ironically, the next line of the song Cap's quote is from is "All these people that you mention, yes I know them they're quite lame."

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03-02-2005, 05:45 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 06:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Vikes, why don't you email him and ask him for yourself?

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03-02-2005, 07:09 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Dan, be serious, why would Vikes believe anything Mr. Bushing himself said, because he might lie. His credibility is "clearly" suspect based on the overwhelming "facts" that already have been unearthed, so asking Bushing himself is obviously a waste of time. PS -- I hope Doug Allen will clear this all up so we can move on to the next (and hopefully more substantial) controversy.

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03-02-2005, 07:24 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>My question after reading the "evidence" used in this thread ("I don't know, but it's possible, so let's assume the worst so we can make our conclusion"), is this the same level of facts people used to say the DiMaggio bat was bad?

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03-02-2005, 07:36 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>At this point, anyhow, in the opinion of this lawyer it amounts to nothing more than sheer speculation on a matter of marginal (at best) importance. Look at the other Mastro bios. The degrees mentioned in them are just deep background facts to humanize the people in my opinion, they aren't being offered to prop up anyone's credentials. What is being offered to prop up credentials is hobby or other relevant experience.

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03-02-2005, 07:40 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 07:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I would bet my left one that Mastro and/or Bushing are aware of this thread by now...<br /><br />so the longer it goes without a response from them, the more it seems that vikes may have found something.

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03-02-2005, 07:49 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-02-2005, 07:56 PM
Posted By: <b>Cap</b><p>I see Vikes' point. <br /><br />The problem is that questions pop up and nobody answers them. <br /><br />Who is authenticating at PSA/DNA? <br />Does Bushing have a degree (and why was the mention removed)? <br /><br />Why can't these questions simply be answered by those parties? When you act in silence, guilt is thrusted upon you. If Dave continues to avoid the question, he is guilty in the eyes of his peers and those who trusted his opinion. If admits that he never had Master's...well, aren't we looking at Jason Giambi and the steroid mess here? All his work from before will come into doubt. <br /><br />Cap<br /><br />PASJD, Julie beat you to the punch and finished up my lyrics on a thread I started. Dylan's songs have 'messages for this forum'. <br /><br /> <br><br>I can see that your head has been twisted and fed by worthless foam from the mouth-Bob Dylan

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03-02-2005, 08:02 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Vikes, why don't you email Bushing and ask him for yourself?

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03-02-2005, 08:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Gotta agree with Dan on this one. Yes, it's suspicious, but it's a simple question to answer. <br /><br />I don't know dave e-mail, but huis E-Bay ID is dbushing1. You can contact him on the site. If he ignores you, then ask Troy, etc.

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03-02-2005, 08:17 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>"The other factor that has not been discussed yet is that someone that has a Master's Degree obviously would be considered to be someone whom has a higher education than most people due to the additional time spent in school/university doing detailed research and study. That perception may add further value to someone's opinion of said individual when evaluating their overall credentials."<br /><br />Hell Hal has a Doctoral degree (which is higher than a Master's), as do I, and that probably detracts from rather than adds to anyone's opinion of us. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-02-2005, 08:18 PM
Posted By: <b>al davis</b><p>PASJD: now i get it! as a lawyer you require a preponderance of evidence or even overwhelming proof that something isn't proper. as a consumer, i'm not bound by the constraints of a legal system to tell me that something just doesn't smell right.

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03-02-2005, 09:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Yes, lying/falsification is bad.<br /><br />However - for me, the bottom line is that a Master's does <i>ABSOLUTELY NOTHING</i> to add or detract from Bushing's ability to be a good bat authenticator.<br /><br />It doesn't say he has an MBA [since he is in a business], and there are not Masters of Bat Authentication - so all a masters would add is some level of expertise in some, potentially random, field that bears no relevance to Bushing's ability to grade bats.<br /><br />In such a context - this is a large non-issue for me.

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03-02-2005, 09:32 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I emailed Mr. Allen to see if he could clear this up. He says his understanding is that Mr. Bushing completed all his course work for his Master's degree, but when he decided to change fields, he did not complete his dissertation. So those are the "facts" at least as Mr. Allen understands them. My personal opinion remains that this is much ado about nothing.

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03-02-2005, 09:41 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So, we're supposed to ask Bushing if he has a Masters? During that same conversation can we also ask him if he owns all the **** that has been authenticated by him and is for sale all over the planet?

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03-02-2005, 09:45 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Why not ask him? It's pretty easy to check with the school to see if he's lying or not so why would he lie about something like that.....besides it appears Doug Allen has already answered the question anyway.

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03-02-2005, 09:46 PM
Posted By: <b>Robert Plancich</b><p>I asked Mr. Bushing about his degree about two years ago. I will check to see if I still have the original email but he confirmed to me that he did not have a Master's Degree.

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03-02-2005, 10:07 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>If Doug Allen and Robert Plancich are correct and David Bushing does not have an MA then why was it being advertised that way and who approved for it to be written up that way on Mastronet.com?<br /><br />I'm going to agree with Marc that these are relatively minor issues when it comes to the expertise of bat authentication, but I do think they might reveal something about one's credibility.<br /><br />To be perfectly fair to everyone, however, I'm going to assume it was just an oversight or misunderstanding.

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03-02-2005, 10:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Robert, nice to see you back here after the legal butt kicking you gave the dark side yesterday. Also, there was a nice article in the NY Daily News about it. And what a surprise to learn that Bushing may not have a Master's Degree. If he writes up a diploma tonight that verifies that he has a Master's from Dave Bushleague U, does that count?

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03-02-2005, 11:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>OK, so Bushing does not have a Master's degree (Vikes, you were right), and once agains this site brings change. Shouldn't Bushing's bio reflect this at whatever auction site lists it? <br /><br />Jeff, do you have a link to the Planich article you mention?

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03-02-2005, 11:29 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>The NYDN article:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/03-02-2005/sports/baseball/yankees/story/285832p-244760c.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.nydailynews.com/03-02-2005/sports/baseball/yankees/story/285832p-244760c.html</a>

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03-03-2005, 01:09 AM
Posted By: <b>I'm Sorry Amigos</b><p>Do You? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 08:49 AM
Posted By: <b>mcavoy</b><p>I agree, whether Mr Bushing does or does not have a Master's degree, the degree does not reflect his ability to evaluate bats; however, the claims of his completed degree are a public signal of his ability (he gets respect from archives with such claims, I am sure), and imo reflect credibility.<br /><br />Suppose, Mr. A has an item with Mr. Bushing's signature attesting to provenance of a bat from 2002, which he relied upon. In court,<br /><br />Lawyer: During 2002, your bio states you have a Master's degree.<br />Bushing: I completed all the requirements.<br />Lawyer: You do not have a Master's degree. How do we believe your claims in your letter you wrote during 2002 about this bat?<br />Bushing: I looked at the bat and studied its characteristics.<br /><br />As my good buddy used to say: Gaaaammmmmeeeeee Ovvvvvvvvvvverrrrrrrrrrrrr

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03-03-2005, 09:57 AM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 10:51 AM
Posted By: <b>The Question Again</b><p>?

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03-03-2005, 11:12 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'm not defending BUshing in awnyway here. To use the O'Leary example, did the padding of his resume cost him the ND job? Yep, sure did. But ya know what, he's still coaching somewhere. The same will be true for Bushing. He will still be authenticating bats, regardless, because he is one of the best at what he does.<br /><br />Let the witch hunt continue<br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-03-2005, 11:33 AM
Posted By: <b>Jayism At Work</b><p>Let the witch hunt continue"<br /><br />Jay<br />*<br />*<br />*<br />??? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 11:40 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay, you're not defending Dave in any way, but say he is the best at what he does and you categorize criticsim of his falsifying his resume as a "witch hunt"? I suppose the whole Planich affair or uncovering of other authentication mistakes and criticism of undisclosed conflict of interest are part of a "witch hunt" as well?<br /><br />Come on, get serious. Are you and Bushing buds now or something? <br />

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03-03-2005, 11:47 AM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 12:08 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Vikes, show me someone that got fired for that after they got a job. I remember reading an article womewhere that over 1/3 of all people lie on their resume about advanced degrees. If this is case, then there should be mass firings. Most companies, while they would be pissed and prolly won't promote the person any time in the near future, will keep that person around if they are performing to or beyond expectations. Bottom line is...the bottom line. If you can make moeny for a company, they don't really care what your background is or how you got there, just make them money.<br /><br />O'Leary may have a black mark on his record, but it didn't keep him from getting a job, and doubt this will keep Bushing from authenticating bats.<br /><br />And like good little trained monkeys, Joe and Aaron jumped just as I trained them to.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-03-2005, 12:25 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 12:29 PM
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I respectfully disagree. I don't think you can lump "everyone" into one category about being fired if they are found to have lied on a resume. Even though my job is not necessarily education sensitive many are. Do you think a doctor or a lawyer or a professor wouldn't get in trouble (or fired or disbarred) for lieing on a resume? regards

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03-03-2005, 12:48 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Remaining ethical on a personal level in business is almost impossible. I know. I've owned a few businesses and my personal ethics have always gotten in the way of them really taking off. Look at almost every sucessful business, whether it's Microsoft, or whoever, a lot of unethical things took place for them to get hwere they are. And they are things that these people would never consider doing in their personal life. But when it comes to money, all bets are off. It's the dark side of capitalism and as long as it's legal, heell even if it's illegal, ethics be damned, we are gonna make a buck. Just make sure we don't get caught.<br /><br />Yes, whoever listed Bushing having a Masters did a bad thing and doesn't reflect well on Bushing. But this a witch hunt. Planich made claims about the DiMaggio bat that were inaccurate or flat out wrong. Everything I've seen from both sides says that most likely the bat is what it is claimed to be. When this was pointed out, we were shills for SCDA so a new point of contention needed to be found. As each thing that is brought and discussed, something new needed to be discoved. There are a core of people that are out to discredit Bushing at all costs. If this core is so concerned about these topics, why aren't they investing Taube and all the other gamer experts? Almost all the concerns brought up about Bushing are industry wide issues. As long as Bushing is the sole target, then this is nothing more than a witch hunt. <br /><br />And the auction houses are still getting off light on this whole game used issue.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-03-2005, 01:00 PM
Posted By: <b>david</b><p>when it comes to authentication there is a big difference between 'most likely' and 'auctually'. dimaggio 'most likely' stepped on the same grass at yankee stadium that bernie williams steps on today, 'actually' that couldnt be further from the truth

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03-03-2005, 01:06 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>On a personal basis, I don't think this is a great issue, but I do agree one shouldn't lie or fib on one's resume. My dad always told me that you should never lie or artificially embellish your resume, because, at the least, it can make you look foolish.<br /><br />I criticize the powers that be, and have loudly pointed out errors at MastroNet, PSA etc. My hope when I criticize is not to tear down a man or institution, but to 1)Protect the collectors (they are always my priority) and 2) Hope the institutions or experts improve. If an auction house that rubbed me the wrong way because they've done some bad things tries their best to correct their ways and over times does improve, I think that's good and give them credit. If over time they are doing a good and honest job, I don't hold a grudge for past errors. I never criticize simply to be vindictive.<br />

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03-03-2005, 01:24 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>We have been over the question of how items are authenticated ad nauseum and the essential conclusion is that the authenticity statement relies on the public perception of the credibility and honesty of the authenticator. PRO or Roy Huff could authenticate a real T206 Cobb and no one here would give him a nickel for it; PSA can and has authenticated fake cards that have sold for thousands. I don't care whether Mr. Bushing has a masters' degree, but I do care very much when a supposedly authoritative voice either was so sloppy as to not read his published resume or lied on his resume. Either way it reflects on his diligence and care, and if the latter on his personal integrity.

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03-03-2005, 01:31 PM
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>definitive about Asian Art, they might. hey--even vintage baseball cards!

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03-03-2005, 01:41 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 01:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>What is your BATNA? Best Alternative to Negotiated Agreement?<br /><br />I guess, in this case, you have the name and resume of a preferable Bat Expert readily available?<br /><br />Please disclose!

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03-03-2005, 01:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"And like good little trained monkeys, Joe and Aaron jumped just as I trained them to." <br /><br />Jay that's so funny, I was about to say the same about you and Bushing/Mastro! <br /><br />Since your visit, you've been acting as a vehement shill for both, almost as though you'd been brainwashed during your visit to Mastro. Don't sweat it though, even Homer couldn't withstand the lures of The Leader... <br /><br />The Leader (Bushing) is good, The Leader (Bushing) is great, surrender your money as of this date.... <br />

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03-03-2005, 02:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Robert Plancich</b><p>WHERE MONEY LIES, INTEGRITY DIES!

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03-03-2005, 02:40 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>1. To clarify a prior question, I am the person who emailed Mr. Allen about this thread and posted his response (with his permission). It seemed an easy enough thing to do to find out the facts even if others were more interested in propounding conspiracy theories. <br /><br />2. I am willing to give Mr. Bushing, and Mastro, the benefit of the doubt here. Given that in my estimation no purpose is served by any intentional "lie," as possession of an unspecified Master's degree in no way enhances Mr. Bushing's authority to authenticate bats, I assume no bad intent on anyone's part. This easily could have arisen from a misunderstanding.<br /><br />3. Even if it did not, and Mr. Bushing told a "little white lie" on an irrelevant matter for whatever reason, to me that is not enough to cast any doubt either on his overall credibility or his ability to authenticate bats. Are you holier-than-thou people out there on a witchhunt telling me you have never made a misstatement in your professional lives? Sure, I believe ya. As a famous person said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. <br /><br />Enjoy the witchhunt. I am sure it will have dramatic repercussions. <br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 02:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Given that in my estimation no purpose is served by any intentional "lie," as possession of an unspecified Master's degree in no way enhances Mr. Bushing's authority to authenticate bats, I assume no bad intent on anyone's part." <br /><br />Actually I would disagree with that. Why then include collegiate education in any of their employees/authenticators' biographies? It's to convey a level of intelligence and education to reassure potential customers that these guys aren't some yokels (no offense, Jay) and that they have strong resumes and backgrounds and are credible. <br /><br />Of course, there's no Master's degree in bat authentication (or card grading for that matter), so the degree is meant simply to add overall value to a resume to make the customer believe the authenticator is more credible by virtue of his higher education. <br /><br />And I agree with Adam. The degree itself is essentially meaningless. It's why the degree appeared on Bushing's bio that seems to be the issue that goes to credibility.

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03-03-2005, 02:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Morrie</b><p>Some scary reading, relating to resume fraud:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.reason.com/0501/fe.ps.cut.shtml">Homeland Security?</a><br /><br />In answer to Jay's question, yes, people can get fired for this stuff. I don't know enough about Bushing to have an opinion on the man or what he did.<br /><br />Morrie

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03-03-2005, 02:58 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Enjoy the witchhunt." <br /><br />You're right, we're all being terribly unfair. <br /><br />I think it's time we leave the Alan Hager's and Broadway Rick's and various E-Bay scammers of the world alone.<br /><br />If people want to lie on their resumes, fine. If people want to hide conflict of interest, fine. If people don't to hear about multiple egregious authentication errors in fields that they are supposedly "the best there is" at, fine. <br /><br />Live and let live that's my new motto....

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03-03-2005, 03:19 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"Planich made claims about the DiMaggio bat that were inaccurate or flat out wrong."</i><br /><br /><br />Jay,<br /><br />I strongly disagree. I believe it was Robert Plancich who first pointed out the conflict of interest and who also questioned the "A10" designation given to the bat. I have found Robert's statements to be reasonable and compelling. Even David Bushing himself agreed that Robert had brought about positive changes in his statements in one of the New York Daily News articles.

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03-03-2005, 03:21 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Oh give me a break Aaron. Because I don't view this PARTICULAR MATTER as justifiying character assasination means that I am willing to turn a blind eye to other sorts of fraud? Perhaps you should take a more nuanced view of things instead of engaging in silly rhetoric.

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03-03-2005, 03:33 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>No one answered my question, repeated below<br /><br />"My question after reading the evidence used in this thread ("I don't know, but it's possible, so let's assume the worst because we're already made our conclusion"), is this the same level of facts people use to say the DiMaggio bat was bad?"<br /><br />I don't collect bats, so I don't know the normal methodology that seasoned collectors use to judge the authenticity or lack therof of bats. Most experienced collectors in other areas, like baseball cards or photographs or sclupture or paintings or coins or prints or vases, find out the facts first (like calling up Doug Allen or Dave Bushing and asking if Bushing has a masters) then come up with a conclusion from the known facts. Is the standard methodology the opposite in the game used bat hobby? And, if so, what is the the point of persuing facts if the conclusion has already been made? Is the problem with Jay and Lee and Dan that they took the trip to MatroNet to interview Dan Knoll and Dave Bushing and looked at records and bats and videotape, THEN formed their opinion on the situation? Just curious, because I don't follow the game used bat hobby like others.

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03-03-2005, 03:51 PM
Posted By: <b>mcavoy</b><p>Good point (cycleback).<br /><br />I don't collect bats, but ...<br /><br />Mr. Bushing probably has a wealth of knowledge I would highly consider if I collected bats, whether he has a Master's or not. His knowledge may be questioned by some, but perhaps not by most. If I did not consider his knowledge to be reliable, I could find alternative sources, or opinions, I imagine. No mention yet of credibility. <br /><br />Now, if I was sued by an authenticator service & auction house's customer, I'd be very interested in the background and credibility of the customer, authenticator service, and the auction house's experts.<br /><br />I wonder if there is a case of a customer suing someone who is quoted in the newspapers or posts in chatboards about the alleged lack of reliability of a any company's graded card product. With the stories about the high-grade Wagner, what if a buyer, someday, used a civil case against some of those who posted alleging its condition, and was supported by the grading service (Back on topic - vintage cards, ha!)?<br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 05:33 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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03-03-2005, 05:35 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 05:39 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Oh give me a break Aaron. Because I don't view this PARTICULAR MATTER as justifying character assassination means that I am willing to turn a blind eye to other sorts of fraud? Perhaps you should take a more nuanced view of things instead of engaging in silly rhetoric." <br /><br />Hmn, then I would suggest if others disagree with you and do find this PARTICULAR MATTER troublesome, you not resort to engaging in such silly rhetoric as describing their concern as "character assassination" and a "witchhunt". <br /><br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 05:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>You seem to have a definition of credibility that is not supported by the general public.<br /><br />Interesting choice of examples with Clinton and Martha Stewart.<br /><br />Clinton, while impeached, was probably the most popular president besides Reagen in the last 35 years. Even generally being a Republican, I nonetheless concede that Clinton frequently won the hearts of the public and is still warmly received today.<br /><br />Stewart, also, is now richer and seemingly more popular than she was when she went into prison. Heck - she's on the cover of popular news periodicals and has a ton of business opportunities at her behest, not to mention all the money.<br /><br />Again - not defending either of them, rather pointing out your use of them as examples, since, in my mind, both of them have solidly overcome their 'character flaws' in the minds of the public.

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03-03-2005, 05:50 PM
Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>MW,<br /> You make some great points, thanks for the link to the DN article. Where does it list the bat as being "A10" and what exactly does that designation stand for. I checked the catalog and found nothing helpful in there.

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03-03-2005, 06:18 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 06:45 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>"Obviously there are people that have or are willing to give Bushing the benefit of any doubt. I have no problem with that. Hey if I was deep into the hobby like some members here are I'd be protective for Bushing at well."<br /><br />Once again, an assumption not based on facts at least in my case. I do not own a SINGLE piece of memorabilia. I give him the benefit of the doubt because I do not see this in the sinister light that you holier-than-thou, never said anything that wasn't 100 percent true in my life types see it in. Oh and by the way, why don't you guys put your money where your mouths are and instead of just spouting off self-righteously in this forum about credibility, write or call Doug Allen (or Dave Bushing himself) and engage with them over this issue.

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03-03-2005, 07:33 PM
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"Where does it list the bat as being "A10" and what exactly does that designation stand for. I checked the catalog and found nothing helpful in there."</i><br /><br /><br />Wallypost,<br /><br />I believe the April 2004 Mastronet catalog lists the DiMaggio bat along with the grade/certification. Also, the <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/200143p-172802c.html" target="_blank">New York Daily News Article</a> from June 5, 2004 writes the following:<br /><br />"Everything meshes," says Bushing, who gave the bat an A-10 grade, his highest mark. "Everything is 100% verifiable. This bat was used during the streak."<br /><br />As far as the designation is concerned, "A10" would indicate the highest level of authentication that could be given to an item by David Bushing/<a href="http://scda.krause.com/default.html" target="_blank">SCDA</a>.

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03-03-2005, 07:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Amy</b><p>Whether or not Bushing is an expert... whether or not Bushing is honest... he is still just guessing.<br /><br />That's something that many people seem to forget.<br /><br />I feel that both Bushing and Mastro are dishonest in how they present the items. Bushing authenticates them as fact. Mastro promotes/auctions them as fact.<br /><br />Re: The "DiMaggio streak bat"<br /><br />Anybody who saw the Mastro catalogue was led to believe that the bat was a DiMaggio streak bat as if it were a fact. That's dishonest and misleading, in my opinion. The reality is that it was merely a guess, and not a fact.<br />

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03-03-2005, 08:05 PM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-03-2005, 08:13 PM
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>PSAJD, I've watched this thread and have tried to stay out of it because I collect cards, not bats or other memorabilia. For that reason, I really don't care whether Mr. Bushing is the greatest thing since sliced bread, a complete ******* or something in between. What I do care about is honesty, integrity, and how those concepts generally affect our entire collecting hobby. <br /><br />I don't know what kind of law you practice. However, if you want to parce the legal stuff, I can do that too. I do it all day. Let me know and we'll play that game. However, I don't really think it needs to go that far because the issue presented here is far more simple.<br /><br />When someone purports to be an expert in a given field of endeavor, their credibility is always an issue. When they seek to bolster their credibility by claiming to possess credentials that they don't, their credibilty takes a hit. When they knowingly allow others with whom they are affiliated to make those claims on their behalf, their credibility takes a hit. When they fail to correct statements regarding their (false) credentials made on websites which have existed for a lenghty period of time, to which they have access, their credibility takes a hit. It doesn't matter whether the misrepresented item directly relates to the purported area of expertise. The fact of the matter is that, at least according to popular wisdom, if you lie about one thing, you are likely to lie about others.<br /><br />If you are a trial attorney, I'm sure you recognize the concept. In that regard, I'm sure you are also probably familiar with the old maxim "Falsis in unum, falsis in omnibus" ["false in one, false in all"]. That seems to be a pertinent concept here. If I ever had Bushing on the stand, falsification of his credentials would be a major theme. Given what has been reported about his Master's situation, I feel fairly certain that I would be able to completely tear his ass off on that issue.<br /><br />From a hobby perspective, that's really kind of sad. How do you square the truth of opinions coming from the "preeminent" bat expert with being a liar? I have some difficulty with that concept. Please feel free to explain it to me because I just don't understand.<br /><br />Kenny Cole<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 08:33 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Vikes -- why don't you take it up with Mastro and Bushing if you are so concerned. See what they say? If you are going to accuse someone of lying, misrepresenting themselves, whatever, do it to their face. Of course I understand your point -- I just don't draw the same conclusion you do from some discrepancy about an unspecified Master's degree. I do agree with you that legitimate questions have been raised about the streak bat, and about conflicts of interest, but this issue just doesn't move me.<br /><br />Kenny -- of course I understand what you are saying. You and I also know that the courtroom does not always reflect reality -- we lawyers can make mountains out of molehills, as long as the molehills are not so remote that they are excluded on relevance or unfair prejudice grounds. Trials can turn on stuff that had little or no contemporaneous importance, that is part of the art of lawyering. And of course, in a trial with Bushing's credibility on the line, I would go after the issue as well. But leaving that stuff aside, my personal feeling is that this is a truly collateral matter that does not lead to the conclusion that Bushing is a liar or has no credibility.

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03-03-2005, 08:45 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Let's make this clear, prior to this whole situation arising, I had never heard of Dave Bushing. I no longer own any game used bats or any other type of game used equipment, so I have nothing to gain or lose by being pro-Bushing or con-Bushing. I just call them as I see them. All I can do right now is laugh at the posts by Aaron and Joe because they have not seen the evidence for the DiMaggio bat and have no intention of viewing it or even giving Bushing and SCDA a fair chance to prove their point. <br /><br />When I went into this meeting, I was pretty convinced that things weren't right with this bat. After having heard Planichs side and SCDA's side, I've been able make an informed opinion on the facts known to this case, unlike Joe, Aaron and others who have made up their minds without seeing both sides and seem hell bent on vilifying Bushing.<br /><br />As I said before, a lot this their problems i.e. conflict of interest, lack of disclosure, etc is a problem with the auction house. All this energy should be aimed at MAstro and other auction houses that won't/don't disclose this information.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-03-2005, 09:06 PM
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>I have a real high level of discomfort with the basic concept that someone who I am relying on to tell me the truth about something I submit to them has either: a) falsified their resume; or b) knowingly allowed someone else to do so.<br /><br />Maybe I am overly paranoid and it's just me. However, whether it be a trial or the real world, I simply don't think that I would give someone who I know has misrepresented their background the same degree of credence as I would give someone who has not. That is especially true if that person ends up buying my item and selling it for a ton much more money than they purchased it for, as appears to be the case in the Henrich/Dimaggio bat situation.<br /><br />I agree that lawyers can sometimes make mountains out of molehills during a trial. But isn't it interesting how trials so often boil down to an assessment of the credibility of the witness? Have you ever won a trial where the jury thought your principal fact (don't want to go into experts <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) witnesses lied? I haven't. If you have, you've done a better lawyering job than me.<br /><br />It seems to me we both agree that Bushing's credibility regarding his background would be a huge issue in any trial which either of us participated in. Consequently, I fail to understand how you can, at the same time, say that it isn't a pertinent issue otherwise. If he can't even tell the truth about his background, why should people rely on him to accurately describe the items that he is both authenticating and selling? I wouldn't.<br /><br />Kenny Cole<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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03-03-2005, 09:25 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Kenny I guess what I am saying is that outside the courtroom, I don't really buy the notion that someone who lies (in this case I think the better word is exaggerates but that is an unimportant quibble) on a small matter is also probably lying about everything else, or can't be trusted generally. I don't think there is a person on this earth who hasn't at one time or another said something that wasn't 100 percent accurate -- it's human nature to exaggerate and to embellish. To me, there is no per se rule. Whether a given lie/exaggeration taints an individual's overall credibility depends on the nature of the lie/exaggeration and the circumstances. Here, I just don't get bad vibes about someone slightly overstating his educational background particularly where that background is (to me anyhow) immaterial to what he does. Similarly, the fact that President Clinton lied about Lewinsky did not in my view taint his credibility as a leader -- in context, one can understand, if not condone, the reasons he lied. If an economist being offered as an expert witness lied about having a Ph.D., or said that he went to Harvard when in fact he went to (you fill in the blank, I don't want to inadvertently disparage anyone's alma mater), then that is one thing. Dave Bushing saying he has a Master's degree when he apparently completed his coursework but didn't complete his dissertation, to me anyhow, does not undermine his overall credibility. Other stuff might. I am not defending him, I don't know him, I don't own anything of his. But not this.

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03-03-2005, 10:00 PM
Posted By: <b>Yes Virginia</b><p>I'm going over to Miestro Land, learn all the BS there is, and then go after my Masters.

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03-03-2005, 10:49 PM
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Misrepresenting (a nice middle ground term between "lying" and "exaggerating") one's CV was the only thing that had occurred. Probably wouldn't, but I might. I'd have to think about it some more.<br /><br />But I don't have that problem. That isn't the only issue that reflects on Mr. Bushing's credibility. There's also that pesky authenticating/selling what you own without disclosure issue that has been raised a time or two. Perhaps its just me, and perhaps I am just jaded, but I view the two issues as interconnected.<br /><br />Where I practice, the non-disclosure of a material fact related to a transaction is viewed as a species of fraud. In my opinion, failing to disclose ownership of an item which you have also authenticated is material to a transaction. In that situation, I don't think it can even be seriously argued that no financial interest exists on the part of the owner/authenticator. <br /><br />As best as I can tell, there really isn't too much question that the bat at issue was owned by the same person who authenticated it. Nor does there seem to be too much question that there was nondisclosure of those two facts. If you view things differently, so be it. BTW, are you an insurance defense lawyer? Perhaps that would explain our differing perspectives. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />When you start with non-disclosure of an ownership interest in the item you are authenticating AND selling, and you then add on misrepresentation of the purported credentials of the authenticator, that causes me a large degree of heartburn. The fact that the authenticator is pimped as being the "best" at what he does simply makes it worse. I think I'll stick with cards. That way, at least most of the time I'll (hopefully) be able to figure out when I'm being lied to. At this juncture, I suppose that's all I can ask.<br /><br />Kenny Cole

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03-04-2005, 12:50 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Kenny, the non-disclosure isn't so much the authenticator not disclosing the fact but the auction house not disclosing this fact. Even with SCDA's new LOOs, the auction houses are not obligated to mention the fact that the authenticator has an interest in the item.<br /><br />I will repeat this one last time:<br /><br />WHY AREN'T THE AUCTION HOUSES BEING CALLED INTO QUESTION?<br /><br />Much of this is due to their descriptions and lack of disclosure in said descriptions. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 12:57 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Come on, Jay, say it with me now... "The Leader is good, The Leader is great, surrender your money as of this date..." <br /><br />Still not moved, eh? Okay, how about... "Na na na na na na Leader-Leader-Leader..." <br /><br />BTW, I haven't vilified Bushing (your Leader) about anything. I still don't know the truth behind the "streak" bat, but I do know for a fact that Bushing commonly practiced undisclosed conflict of interest (and apparently will continue to do so), which I do have a problem with.<br /><br />You, OTOH, believe Bushing that the "streak" bat is legit based on a one-sided, unchallenged biased presentation given by the same people who bought you lunch and let you tour their facility, and having met the guy and deemed upstanding and the best at what he does (after he gave you a magnifying glass) have no beef with his practicing undisclosed conflict of interest (and actually prefer that he's an authenticator who is also a dealer of his own material). <br /><br />So we disagree. What's the confusion? Heck, maybe if I got a tour of Mastro and free lunch, I'd agree with Bushing, too. (Well, if he threw in the magnifying glass.) <br /><br />As far as this "Master's degree" stuff, I think it's comical. The guy lied on his resume and claimed to have an advanced degree that he really didn't. How cheesy for someone whose income and position in the hobby is dependent on his credibility. I mean do we even know he went to graduate school? Didn't you think it odd, that his bio didn't even say where he went to graduate school? <br /><br />Anyway, unlike you, I have thousands of dollars in memorabilia that's financial value is contingent on Bushing's LOA's, so on the one hand, I'd love for this whole thing to just blow over and everybody to forget about it, or better yet, Bushing to try to take a public stance against undisclosed conflict of interest or give up dealing (or authenticating), or Bushing himself clarifying the situation with his degree. <br /><br />But he's silent, which to me says he has no reasonable defense (or he has people giving him really bad advice). He's going to continue dealing and continue withholding from bidders if he has a conflict of interest on items offered at auction, and he just got caught in a pretty egregious lie on his resume (claiming to be fluent in Microsoft excel when you only know the basics is a common exaggeration, claiming to hold an advance college degree when you don't is how people lose jobs). <br /><br />So to you, it's vilifying, to me it's not congratulating someone for hiding the fact he owned material he was authenticating or for lying on their resume about having an advanced degree that he really didn't. (Although I'm still waiting for my tour invite...)

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03-04-2005, 01:34 AM
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>I guess I must not be very articulate as a writer. That is somewhat depressing, since there is many day where I spend a substantial portion of time trying to be articulate (Sigh). Let me try again.<br /><br />If Bushing authenticated items he owned without disclosing that fact, that's bad. If he misrepresented his background, that's bad. If he knowingly allowed someone to misrepresent his background, that's bad. If he both owned/authenticated items without disclosing that, and also misrepresented his credentials, or if he allowed them to be misrepresented, that's at least double bad. If Mastro or any other auction house knowingly facilitated a falsehood on his behalf, that is equally bad. <br /><br />I didn't shoot at Mastro because I was focusing on the individual. However, you are absolutely right. If Mastro, or any other auction house for that matter, propogated what turns out to be a lie, then I believe that they are equally culpable. Having said that, do you think that I still get my OJ Delahanty card from Mastro? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Kenny

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03-04-2005, 09:42 AM
Posted By: <b>vikes066</b><p>[response deleted]

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03-04-2005, 10:58 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>One more time for all you conflict of intrest conspiracy buffs:<br /><br />Standard operating proceedure throughout the ENTIRE collectibles world is that authenticators sell what they authenticate. Do you think all those experts on the Antiques Roadshow do that out of the goodness of their heart? Hell no. And I am sure they have made a number aquisitions for resale becuase of it. So whining and crying about Bushing or anyone else is a moot point. It's how the collectibles world operates. That's great if you want to try and change it, but if you are, don't single out a one person. You won't effect industry wide change that way.<br /><br />As too errors, show me a single person that has never made an error in thier life. <br /><br />The only error that Bushing benefited from was the DiMaggio bat, and that's only becuase the original buyer had second thoughts about the piece. So basically he benefited from the someone having buyers remorse than benefiting from his error. As forthe Ichiro bat, Seaver glove, etc? How did he benefit from these errors? Corrections and refunds were made.<br /><br /><br />Jay Behrens (just so vikes know my full name since everyone else does)<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 11:33 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay wrote: "Standard operating proceedure throughout the ENTIRE collectibles world is that authenticators sell what they authenticate." <br /><br />I wasn't aware PSA or SGC sold cards they authenticate? <br /><br />When did this happen?

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03-04-2005, 11:38 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay also wrote: "Jay Behrens (just so vikes know my full name since everyone else does)" <br /><br />Actually in this instance I think using username that does not include an individual's name is probably in their best interest. <br /><br />Clearly it has been the case that if you are critical of Mastro and/or SCDA you could face legal action for speaking your mind. <br /><br />Additionally, Doug Allen is not above using an e-mail address on the N54 log-to search Mastro's customer database and identify you and your contact information. <br /><br />So, I think cation is understandable on the part of Vikes (or anyone else in this instance).

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03-04-2005, 11:39 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, you prove your ignorance with that statement. PSA has/does sell cards that it authenticate. As far I know, SGC does not, but it's always easy to point out an exception, there are always a few.<br />As to using your real name, it has a been along standing policy of this board to use your real name, or your posts will be deleted. I don't see this changing any time in the near future. If you don't ahve the guts to stand behind you accusations, then don't make them. Plain and simple.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 11:41 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay: Where does PSA sell its own cards? <br /><br />And thanks for confirming SGC does not sell cards they authenticate. I guess your statement that the ENTIRE collectibles world sells their own material was incorrect. <br /><br />BTW, does CGC sell their own comic books? <br /><br />Does AFA sell their own action fugures? <br />

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03-04-2005, 11:45 AM
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>If you are ripping into Mastro and they shut you down from bidding on there auctions in the future then why are you bidding in Mastro auctions in the first place. <br /><br />I would really like to know how many of the respondents that question the auction house policies actually bid in them and continue to do so?

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03-04-2005, 11:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>I don't think it's a question of guts, I think it's common sense. Richard Planich used his own name and a frivolous lawsuit was brought against him in a court-decided attempt to silence him.<br /><br />Besides, Vikes is using a username and a log-in. That's NOT violation of the board's policy. (Otherwise Pas would have his posts deleted as well.)Only posting as "Anonymous" is a violation. <br /><br />And these aren't accusations, BTW. They are proven facts. <br /><br />SCDA practiced undisclosed conflict of interest. <br /><br />SCDA continues to practice undisclosed conflict of interest. <br /><br />Dave Bushing does not have a Master's degree as he claimed. <br /><br />SCDA will continue to use SCDA LOA's when selling their own material, in violation of their own "revamped" policy. (One that you yourself were shilling for SCDA. BTW, doesn't it bother you that they lied and used you to spread a lie?)<br /><br />Etc. <br /><br />Man, don't you ever get tired of being wrong? <br />

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03-04-2005, 11:51 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, I'm not gonna play symantics games with you. If you can't comprehend that authenticators selling their own items is an industry standard, then you are beyond hope. I don't claim it to be right or wrong. As vikes like to say, Just sating the facts.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 11:53 AM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"If you are ripping into Mastro and they shut you down from bidding on there auctions in the future then why are you bidding in Mastro auctions in the first place." <br /><br />I wasn't aware Mastro was shutting down user accounts in response to legitimate criticism of their policies. Is this another tactic to silence criticism now that lawsuits have proven fruitless? <br /><br />"I would really like to know how many of the respondents that question the auction house policies actually bid in them and continue to do so?" <br /><br />I absolutely do. (I just won an item on MastroNet last week.) I love MastroNet and the service and product they offer. I also feel that they have a serious problem with their handling of SCDA and undisclosed conflict of interest on game-used memorabilia (as well as not disclosing when card restoration has taken place). The two are not mutually exclusive. <br /><br />Mastro, like other businesses, will occasionally come under criticism for various policies. That's simply a fact of the ENTIRE business world. <br /><br />

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03-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, once again you are wrong and jsut don't get it. The AUCTION HOUSE is the one that determines whether this is disclosed or not. MAstro offered to make available contact to all bidders of the DiMaggio bat that they knew at the time of the auction that Bushing had an interest in the bat. (Go ahead and insert your conspiracy theory here). <br /><br />How SCDA continuing to do this. The Farve jersey in question clearly states that someone has an interest in it? Please point out where they are not disclosing anything? And I will say this once again in hopes that it might just sink in, if it's from an auction house, it is up to the AUCTION HOUSE to disclose this information.<br /><br />Since you seem to be able to predict the future, who will win ROY for 2011 season?<br /><br />The only thing you are right on is that Bushing never had the MAsters degree listed on his MAstro bio.<br /><br />A .250 average. Almost good enough to get ya in the big leagues.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 12:09 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"The AUCTION HOUSE is the one that determines whether this is disclosed or not." <br /><br />I don't agree with that. SCDA could choose to stop consigning to auction houses (like Mastro) that refuse to list a conflict of interest in the item description. Alternately, they could refuse to offer their authentication services. I think if they were to present these option to an auction house, the house would rather agree with SCDA than lose their business. <br /><br />"How SCDA continuing to do this. The Farve jersey in question clearly states that someone has an interest in it? Please point out where they are not disclosing anything? And I will say this once again in hopes that it might just sink in, if it's from an auction house, it is up to the AUCTION HOUSE to disclose this information." <br /><br />In this instance Vintage Authentics scanned the LOA which revealed that Troy lied about SCDA's stated policy of not using SCDA LOA's when selling their own material. However, in last month's Mastro Collector Classic and Hunt Auctions, no such images were made available, so if SCDA consigned any material to either of those auctions, then the practice continues. <br /><br />Thus the statement: "SCDA continues to practice undisclosed conflict of interest" is still, unfortunately, correct. <br /><br />Jay, I am truly astounded to the levels you are willing to argue to prove that you were not manipulated. I believe as far as you are concerned this is no longer about SCDA and Mastro, but whether you were made to look foolish and you're unwillingness to accept that. <br />

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03-04-2005, 02:07 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, you can believe whatever you like about me. I could care less what you opinion since by evidence of your posts, you do not have an open mind and have preconceived notions that you will not change no matter how wrong you may be. At least I've formed an opinion based on facts from every side. You cannot say the same.<br /><br />Here is my challenge to you, since you seem so passionate about your stance, start an authenication service and run it the way you think all of them should be run. This should be a slam dunk and you will get rich. If I was a gambling man though, I'd be willing to bet on 2 things, you won't take me up on this offer (insert lame answer and reasons here) and if by some strange alignment of the stars you actually do, you will go belly up within a year becuase you probably won't find an auction house to agree to your terms. It's nice to sit at home in your win-win baracalounger, but obviously you don't understand the realities of the situation. <br /><br />Do I like the situation. No. But until the auction houses change the way they operate, there isn't a whole the authenticators can do. I can't do much about it since they don't use authenticators or bid in the big house auctions, and that's pretty much how you influence a company. And as long as you keep bidding in MAstro auctions, you are condoning their every behiour that you detest.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 02:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Yes, Jay, I accept your challenge! I am going to quit my job and inform my wife that I am going to start my own business in the high-risk world of authenticating sports memorabilia! Sure money might be tight and I'm not experienced and I would be starting the business based on a challenge from some guy on the Internet I don't know, but if I don't then Jay will say I don't have any guts! <br /><br />Jay, if this is what you're reduced to, I don't think we have much to talk about anymore.

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03-04-2005, 02:34 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, such a predictable answer. You seem to have all the answers to properly running this type of business, so why would it be so hard to do it? According to you it's a very successful business model, so you shouldn't hesitate backing it up by starting an authenticating business based ony our model. <br /><br />We really don't ahve anything more toalk about on this topic because there is absolutely nothing anyone can say or do that will ever change your mind even though 3 of went to the meeting convinced that Planich was right and after we had all the FACTS, changed our minds on the situation. But cecause we changed our minds based on the FACTS, we were duped because to visit a very crowded and cramped office with lots of neat stuff all over the place. Did it ever occur to you that the FACTS changed our mind? <br /><br />Believe what you like, it's obvuious that nothing further can be gained responding to you because you won't even back up the very business model that you think will be so successful.<br /><br />Wish I owned one of those win-win barcaloungers<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 02:39 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Same to you, Jay. That bean-bag must be very comfortable.

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03-04-2005, 02:39 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I must have missed the original reference. What is a "win-win barcalounger"? Great phrase, but I don't quite catch the meaning. Thanks.

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03-04-2005, 03:04 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>it's a reference to Aarona nd Joe's position on the trip to Chicago. If we came back agreeing with what they beleived, they would be saying, "See, we right about all this DiMaggio bat nonsense" and if we came back, as we did, with our minds changed, they can could sit back and say that we were duped by the big city, bright lights and the tour of the Mastro offices and still maintian that they are correct about everything. This lead to my comment about them responding from the comfort of their win-win barcaloungers. No matter what happened, they were goign to be right.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 03:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Aaron, AFA is a really bad example. AFA originated in Michigan and then moved their business to Atlanta...convienently located near Cloud City Collectibles which just happens to be the biggest seller of AFA graded Star Wars figures. So you figure so what, until you find out that Tom Derby who own(ed) Cloud City also owns a share of AFA. Of course in the interest of not appearing to have a conflict of interest Tom's sister is now the CEO of Cloud City. Not only that, but many of the people who worked at Cloud City now work at AFA.....sure no conflicts there.<br /><br />As a side note Alan Rosen attempted to set up an action figure grading company in New Jersey with Plastic Dreams and Josh Velinsky while at the same time advertising in every issue of Toy Shop that he wanted to buy up your star wars figures.<br /><br />Dan

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03-04-2005, 03:22 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Oh, Jay, is that what you meant with the "win-win" thing? Okay, let me clarify because you obviously misunderstood. <br /><br />I don't care if you came back and agree with them 100% or if you disagreed with them. Your trip was a sham--a cheesy PR stunt that was essentially worthless since it was one-sided and unchallenged, so it really didn't matter what you came back with. <br /><br />I would have had the same opinion had Adam tried to organize a one-sided, biased and unchallenged "demonstration" of Planich's take on the bat. <br /><br />Both would have been a waste of time, if they aren't subject to any sort of knowledgeable, objective examination and scrutiny (which is why I kept saying that I would refrain from an opinion on the bat until both sides had a chance to argue their case in court). <br /><br />Anyway, I hope that clears up any confusion. <br />

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03-04-2005, 03:30 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Interesting, Dan. Quite shady, indeed. <br /><br />What about PSA? Jay said they do, but I wasn't aware they were selling their own cards. <br /><br />How about CGC? I don't collect action figures or comic books, so I'm not familiar with their operations.

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03-04-2005, 03:44 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll let someone with more knowledgable about it give details, but I believe PSA and Superior are conencted at the hip. As for CGC, they are part of the same company that owns SGC, so I doubt they sell thier stuff either.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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03-04-2005, 03:45 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I really don't know anything about PSA or CGC, but as a former toy collector (I say former because I now own my own vintage toy store and if I still collected toys I would never want to part with any of them) I know a lot about AFA and Cloud City. I should also say that I know of NO wrongdoing in the case of AFA and Tom Derby. Derby is recognized as a leading expert on authenticating Star Wars collectibles (especially prototypes). It's the appearance of a conflict of interest that should have been avoided and was not. There was a big to do over this a couple of years ago, but it seemingly just went away and nobody really seems to care. I think as long as the buyers in the game used industry continue to accept the leap of faith quotient this issue will probably die as well.

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03-04-2005, 04:35 PM
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Very cool, Dan. Gotta love a vintage toy store. I still have all my old Super Powers figures safely stored away. Sadly though, the Star Wars figures are all gone...

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03-04-2005, 06:03 PM
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>