Holy Grail?

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>I've heard many of the hobby's experts make statement's about this or that card being more scarce and desirable than the T206 Honus Wagner. My question is what card is the most desirable in the hobby today despite the hype of the past.<br /><br />My vote is for the 1914 Baltimore Babe Ruth.

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Posted By: <b>Billy</b><p>My Holy Grail is the 1887 Allen & Ginter Cap Anson. Great player, beautiful card, low pop, and very old.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>I have been looking for a nice E102 Wagner fielding for some time.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>A Grail card all depends on what you collect and what you like. For me, my Grail card used to be the m101-5 Thorpe because I've always admired Thorpe and it's one of the few cards the depicts him as a baseball player. Thanks to a previous Grail thread and a kind lurker, I know own this card <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Right now, my current grail cards would be the 2 Tarzan Bread cards I need for my player set, Hogsett and Carleton. Anyone have either they wanna sell real cheap? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br /><br />Suppose you are an idiot...then suppose you are the President. Oh, wait. I'm repeating myself.

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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>The T206 Wagner is considered by most "in the know" collector's as the top card in existence -- as evidenced by the $$$ being paid for examples. My intention for this thread is to get an idea of whether or not the Wagner still reigns supreme, not necessarily what each of us consider "grail worthy" for our own collections.

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Posted By: <b>Billy</b><p>Ok well the answer is no then. The T206 Wagner is the most overvalued card in the hobby. It's as simple as that.<br /><br />added:<br /> I can't see any card challenging the T206 wagner as far as price goes, so it will always be the holy grail, but maybe no rightfully so.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>1986 Donruss Jose Canseco RC limited edition (doubled its regular size after injecting itself with steroids).

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The t206 Wagner reigns supreme and will do so for the forseable future. It's the only vintage card that the average person on the street would recognize and actually know what it is. Within hobbies innner circle, there are no doubt cards that are more coveted and desired than the Wagner, but people outside the would have no clue about them. The Ruth card you mention is a perfect example. It maybe coveted amongst the hobby elite, but most average collectors are unaware of the card. Even people that only collect shiny new metalic cards know all about the Wagner, yet proabably know absolutely nothing about this Ruth card.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Suppose you are an idiot...then suppose you are the President. Oh, wait. I'm repeating myself.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>I now remember. That's about it for me.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Do all of the Rumors surrounding the PSA 8 Wagner keep it from "Holy Grail" status?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There are people that don't care about what has or hasn't happened with that card. All they care about is having the highest graded card whether the card inside the slab is altered or not. It's definately a case where people are buying the slab and not the card, per se.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Andy Cook</b><p>Holy grail is any T217 Mono or D380 Clements Brothers Bread<br /><br />Andy

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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>If that card were submitted to PSA for grading today do you think they would grade the card? Would GAI? SGC?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>The T206 Wagner card is a FREAKING COMMON! <br /><br />Who would pay outrageous money for a card that common?<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/629Lg.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Let's not get carried away, to the best of my knowledge there is only one copy graded above Ex and that card is most likely been substantially altered.

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Posted By: <b>wesley</b><p>I thought Hal's Reccius Wagner is one of a kind.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>So take away the one that was altered...<br /><br />and you have about 60 fair-to-poor known examples of the T206 Wagner card.<br /><br />Anyone who would pay $100,000 for some POOR T206 Wagner card when 59 other people have the SAME card in BETTER condition... is crazy (to me).<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Sure, there is NO DOUBT that the T206 Wagner card is the most "famous" in terms of notoriety...<br /><br />but OWNING one is LESS about collecting "cards" and more about collecting "publicity."

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Wes: It is one-of-a-kind. <br /><br />Wally was talking about the T206.

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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Hal,<br /> I agree it is an over-hyped card. For my 100K I would ratherhave the Balti News Ruth. Even though it appears that the grade was a little generous.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>No doubt, Wally, no doubt.<br /><br />$100k could also get a very nice one of these and STILL have $50k left over for a new car:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/817Lg.jpg"><br /><br />With only a dozen or so known to exist...<br /><br />they should start catching up in price to the T206 Wagners in the very near future.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Hal.<br /> Is your copy the one from the Egan collection?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>No, the Wagner card and the Cobb card above are both mine.<br /><br />But, if you are asking if they were once in the Egan collection BEFORE I purchased them...<br /><br />I really don't know the answer to that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>At the rate things are going the McPhee N172 (any pose) will be the "hot" thing to get. Ok, that's a big stretch. <br /><br />I like the N172 Anson in uniform as a tough card from a widely distributed set (not regional to a city) as the holy grail. There are so many different cards that are "tough" and that could qualify.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>E98 Old Put Cobb.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I don't think I have ever seen the Cobb back before, at least not on an actual card. Is it slabbed, I can't quite tell on this lousy PC if that is an SGC holder or a black background? What other rarities are you keeping hidden there in far-off Florida?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Yes, Peter, it is slabbed by SGC:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/818Lg.jpg"><br /><br />STUPID CREASE!!!<br /><br />Why couldn't smokers be MORE CAREFUL with their cards back then??<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I didn't know such a place existed.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Hal,<br />You are a bit critical of the T206 Wagner consdering you were bidding on one in the last Lelands auction, the one with the mouse bite. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I agree with you on the Cobb/Cobb back. It is probably undervalued, but more recent sales show it to be on the rise.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />You have to remember that I have only one purpose in life:<br /><br />To bid HIGH on EVERY vintage card!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />My mission is to DRIVE UP the value of all these old cards... and it seems to be working!!<br /><br />The BUYERS can hate me.<br /><br />The SELLERS can love me.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>To me it isn't the most valuable card but the card I need for my collection but simply cannot f-ing find no matter what I try: 1928 Exhibit PCL Jimmie Reese, 1921 Exhibit boxing Eddie O'Dowd and E78 Sam Berger and James Jeffries. I need the O'Dowd to finish my set, where I have been stalled for 2+ years, and the Jeffries/Berger is the only mainstream card with 1904 Olympic HW gold medalist and Jewish slugger Berger. I've been chasing that one for years too. Of course, I'd estimate the E78 at somewhere north of $500 if it surfaced at auction, so it isn't exactly cheap, but compared to the baseball cards everyone else is citing...

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Wagner was a great player -- no doubt about it. But ---- Cobb was arguably the greatest. Cobb is also more reknown worldwide. In my humble opinion, the Cobb with Cobb back is more desirable than the T206 Wagner -- great card Hal! My intention with this thread was to get ideas on what cards could supplant the Wagner as the hobbies most desirable. That card would have to be rare, old, and of a legend.<br /><br />The T206 Wagner has all that going for it, and it is from a widely collected set( a big plus). The t206 Cobb with Cobb back would have to essentially become more than a variation(I believe had it been a different pose from his "regular" t206's it would already be the top card)to surplant the Wagner. Gradually this is happening as more and more of us are paying attention to backs. This makes the T206 master set a monster for the ages.<br /><br />I believe there is no hope for cards of Nap Lajoie or Lindy Linstrom or Homerun Baker of ever taking top spot. A card from a less popular issue would have to be a card of a Cobb or Ruth(eg the 1914 Baltimore)to receive the honor. <br /><br /><br />Candidates for the position of MVC (most valuable card)<br />1914 Baltimore Ruth<br />1914 CJ Christy Mathewson<br />T206 Cobb with Cobb back<br /><br />Any others?

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>What effect does the quantity available of a potential Holy Grail card have on its candidacy? The Wagner seems perfectly situated because it is rare, but not impossible. Anybody with enough money can get one. A couple of recent auctions aside, the Doyle variation is virtually impossible. With only five or six known, it really can't be gotten by most people even if they wanted one. I wonder if the Cobb/Cobb back actually increased in desirability when Rob Lifson found five, bringing the then total to 11 or 12 (now I believe 13) known. It is a bit more possible. They are not offered with nearly the frequency of a Wagner or Plank, but every few years one is made available. <br />Is the Baltimore News Ruth too rare?<br />Any guesses on how many 14 CJ Mattys there are? Are there any theories on why it seems to be harder to find than other1914 CJs?<br /><br />Though I don't think it will change any time soon if ever, I think the Cobb back has the best shot at being the Holy Grail - Best Player, Most Popular Pre-WWI set, rare but not utterly impossible.<br /><br />My gut says that the Wagner will always be the Holy Grail. Hal, you really should get one. They are also more attractive than your other Wagner. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Does anyone else get the sense that JimB has a T206 Wagner for sale and he wants me to be his sucker? <br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Come on Jim...<br /><br />post a SCAN of that bad boy!!!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Jim, I know of 13 examples of 1914 Cracker Jack Mathewsons, I have scans of 12 different. As for why it's more difficult, the only theory I have is there are more 1915 Cracker Jack collectors than 1914 and they may like to try to complete a Master set. Meaning they go back and get all the different poses and team changes from the 1914 set. Just a theory.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Hal,<br />I am just speaking the truth. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /> If I can get to my safety deposit box before closing tonight, I will post a scan. Otherwise, I am out of town until Sunday night, so it will have to wait until next week.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Geoff Litwack</b><p>It's not the most valuable or the rarest of the cards under discussion, but I have to agree with Julie that my holy grail would be the Four Base Hits Kelly. Every time I see that image, it knocks me off my feet.<br /><br />Best<br />Geoff

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Posted By: <b>Tbob</b><p>T210 Old Mill Series 8 Joe Jackson. 'Nuff said....

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/JimB/HonusFRONT.JPG"> <br /><br />Here you go Hal, though at this point it is not really for sale.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>JimB:<br /><br />I guess the rat that was nibbling on yours didn't have as sharp of teeth as the other one did! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Just kidding - GREAT card - you should NEVER sell it.

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Anyone have a scan of a four base hits kelly?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I believe this is a scan of Leon's card.<br /><br /><img src="http://webpages.charter.net/sabrjay/19cardspics/fbhkelly.jpg"><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>A short list:<br />T206 Cobb/Cobb back<br />1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth<br />T210 Joe Jackson<br />1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson<br />Four Base Hits King Kelly<br />N172 Cap Anson in uniform<br />E98 Old Put Ty Cobb<br />1897-99 H. Reccius Cigars Honus Wagner<br /><br />Any of you out there have all these cards? Hal?<br />How many of you out there own any of these? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Anyone who owns ALL TEN of these cards would be one bad-ass mamma-jamma!!<br /><br />Four Base Hits King Kelly<br />N172 Cap Anson (in uniform)<br />1897 Reccius Cigars Honus Wagner<br />E98 Ty Cobb (w/Old Put stamp)<br />T206 Honus Wagner<br />T206 Ty Cobb (w/Cobb back)<br />T210 Joe Jackson<br />1914 Baltimore News Babe Ruth<br />1914 Cracker Jack Christy Mathewson<br />1913 Boston Garter Joe Jackson<br /><br />These are probably the 10 "Kings" of the vintage card world!<br /><br />Just ONE of these cards would make ANY collection a great one!

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Sounds like you're the man for the job, Hal. <br /><br />Really, it looks like from this list, only the Reccius is unique so you have a jump start on everyone. <br /><br />FBH Kelly<br />N172 Anson (in uniform)<br />Reccius Wagner<br />E98 Old Put Ty Cobb <br />T206 Wagner<br />Cobb w/Cobb back<br />T210 Jackson<br />Baltimore News Ruth<br />1914CJ Mathewson<br />Boston Garter Jackson<br /><br />Besides the Reccius, isn't the population for the others at least two? If that's the case, only you could finish off that list.

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Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>where does a Ty Cobb t213 type 3 "overprint" fit into the rarity/scarcity equation...have people seen many, if any of those? I believe he only comes in two poses, red portrait and "bat off"...

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>the Old Put Cobb is unique (at least according to the Mastronet catalog it was auctioned in). However, you never know what is hiding out there. Some caramel guru like Pete C. or BCD would know more about them however.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Wouldn't it be cool if we had a monopoly game with groups of these cards as the properties, grading companies as utilities, the major card conventions as the railroads, and your neighborhood candy store as free parking. The playing pieces could be a mit, bat, catcher's mask, world series tropy, Babe Ruth's car, etc. The community and chance cards could be renamed Evers and Chance, and the cards would reflect some of the history of the game. Jail could be renamed Banished. A chance card would state "caught fixing the World Series, You are banished and pay $200; or find a great deal on ebay collect $200 in dividends; or better yet by a fake on ebay, you lose $100 etc.<br /><br />T206 Wagner and Cobb Boardwalk and ParkPlace<br />T210 Jackson, 1914 Ruth, 1914 CJ Mathewson Green Properties<br />N172 Anson, Four Base Hits Kelly, & Reccius Wagner Yellow properties<br />1914 CJ Cobb, Jackson, & Wagner Red properties<br />1952 Topps Mantle, 1934 Goudey Gehrig, 1933 Goudey Ruth #144 Orange<br />1948 Leaf Paige, Robinson, and Musial Violet<br />1963 topps Rose, 1969 topps Jackson, 1968 topps ryan light blue<br />1986 Donruss Jose Canseco(VG condition) and `91 topps tr. Giambi purple

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>For a card with so many problems, JimB's Wagner has great surface and color! IMHO

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />Was wondering if you obtained the Wagner from a private collector out of Northern Calif? The only version of this card I thought resided in his collection and I am shocked that he would let this card go when all he collects are rarities.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Money makes people do the strangest things...

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Posted By: <b>pete</b><p>What about the e90-1 mitchell or the e97 sullivan's. They're a lot f+#k$in rarer than the "common" Wagner?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Money makes people do the strangest things...<br /><br />I can see that.

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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Does anyone here own more than one copy of any of the 10 cards listed above? Know of anyone who does?

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Greg <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />If I wasn't so thick-skinned...<br /><br />I would think that you were implying that I do crazy things with my money.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>The reason that the T206 Wagner is THE Holy Grail card is because having that card alone raises the prices of all the other Wagner cards. If there never was a T206 Wagner card, the other Wagner cards would be cheaper. I'm not saying cheap. But because the T206 has such notoriety, all other Wagner cards are inflated in price. I don't think any other card holds that kind of clout. <br /><br />Cy

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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>My top ten vintage cards would be (in no particular order):<br /><br />1-Anson in Uniform<br />2-E107 Mathewson<br />3-T206 Wagner<br />4-Four Base Hits Kelly<br />5-K-Bats Ewing<br />6-K-Bats Ward<br />7-Just So Young<br />8-Baltimore News Ruth<br />9-Delahanty N173<br />10-N172 Rusie-N.Y.<br /><br />My criteria was that the card had to be rare or have cult status, and be of a HOFer. At least 8 of these cards have 5 or less known copies and, to the best of my knowledge, three are unique.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>a N300 Kid Nichols. I bid a ridiculous $777 for a trimmed and skinned version on Ebay a few months back and still got sniped. I shoulda bought Jeff Sackman's Nichols a few years back for $280 !!!

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Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>The trimmed and skinned version that recently sold on ebay was the same card that Jeff Sackman was selling. I thought that I would lose money on it, but it turned out much better than expected.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/665Lg.jpg"><br /><br />I'll second the motion.

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>I agree with Cy. The T206 Wagner has increased Wagner's popularity and desirability at least two-fold. Any estimate's on a T206 Wagner portrait, say if it was as common as the T206 Cobb/Red portrait.<br /><br />My guess would be $2000 in Ex-Mt condition.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>PSA has created a separate registry set for what they consider to be the top ten cards in the entire hobby. The list is considerably different than the ones that forum members have created, but the ten cards that PSA has chosen probably represents the "Holy Grail" for most hobbyists. Here they are:<br /><br /><br />Top Ten Baseball Card Classics<br /><br />1909-11 T206 TY COBB <br />1909-11 T206 EDDIE PLANK <br />1909-11 T206 HONUS WAGNER <br />1915 CRACKER JACK JOE JACKSON <br />1933 GOUDEY BABE RUTH <br />1933 GOUDEY NAPOLEON LAJOIE <br />1934 GOUDEY LOU GEHRIG <br />1948 LEAF SATCHEL PAIGE <br />1952 TOPPS MICKEY MANTLE <br />1954 WILSON FRANKS TED WILLIAMS <br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I would guess that if the Wagner were as common as other T206s, it would be worth about what a Mathewson or Johnson is worth. He is definately a top tier HOF from his era. Many considered him the best, even better than Cobb. I agree that other issues of Wagner have benefited some from the desirablity and popularity of the T206, but let's not underestimate the greatness of Wagner as a player. It is no accident that the Wagner is worth about 20 times what the Plank is worth in low grade. We all know Plank was a HOFer too and his T206 is just about as hard to find as the Wagner.<br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Wagner was certainly a great player--One of the Gods of the Game.

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Posted By: <b>John Spencer</b><p>One small vote for the T204 Walter Johnson with a TTT reverse. Not the holy grail for sure but should make the list.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BN300Ni001.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>But you won't truly feel the love Julie until you slab that bad boy and sell it to me!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff</b><p>Does anybody have a scan of this card? I've always wondered what it looks like.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>You can see a picture of that Ruth on the Robert Edwards Auctions website. They are auctioning a PSA 4 in their April auction. You can find a link in the links section here.<br />JimB