The SCDA trip

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Dan Baretta, Lee and I just got back from the dog and Pony show. The Lipezaners were fabulous as usual, but the English Sheep Hounds shed all over the place.<br /><br />Seriously, this was a very informative and worthwhile trip. The presentation, if you want to call it that, started with Dave Bushing giving a detailed walk thru on how the bat was authenticated and whole story behind it. This is a basic timeline of the trasaction:<br /><br />Patricia Henrich, Tommy's daughter contacts Bushing about some bats she has found in the attic of her Mother's house.<br /><br />Nothing special is noted about the DiMaggio bat. All bats are purchased and rbought to the Ft Washington show for a quick flip to buyer. <br /><br />The buyer is told that the DiMaggio isn't right because of the ball markings all over the bat. The buyer demands a refund and Bushing gives it.<br /><br />This leads to further research by Bushing to try and prove that the bat is an actually gamer.<br /><br />Further research shows that it is one of 22 bats with these particular markings, inlcuding a shipment of bats that cover The Streak.<br /><br />Henrich is interviewed about the bat and says that DiMaggio gave him the bat after the streak ended. <br /><br />Henrich got married in August of 1941 and left this and the other bats at his mother's house.<br /><br />If this is the case, the order from 7-1-41 is the first order of 6 bats with all the markings of this bat. The other 16 bats with these marking were ordered after August 1941.<br /><br />An H&B exec (forget his name at the moment, left my notes at Lee's) claims he was independently by DiMaggio and Henrich that Henrich was given a Streak bat Joe.<br /><br />I am forgetting some other details and will add them when I get my notes, so be sure to check back for more details.<br /><br />If the original buyer of this bat had not backed out of the deal, this would be just another DiMaggio gamer. Because he had doubts and forced Bushing to do further research into the authenticity of the bat, it was discovered to be more than just gamer, but very possibly a Streak bat. <br /><br />Would I give and A10 grade as they did? No. But the evidence is very strong that it is and all parties involved are more than willing back the item with a full money back refund of it is proven to be other than described in the LOA. SCDA has also said they are more than will to show anyone else that wans to see what see saw today at any show they set up at if you give them advanced notice so they can bring the appropriate material.<br /><br />Bushing also touched on some other areas, such as the Seaver glove, which had an addendum addded to the auction description prior to the start of the auction. As to Ichiro bat, Bushing said this came from agent of Ichiro and apprently were mislead about the bat.<br /><br />After the walk thru how they autheticated the bat other assorted topics, we went to lunch and then came back and got tour of the Mastro offices.<br /><br />Jaw dropping is an understatement to describe the items that were there. Various items that were in plain view was PSA 8 33 Goudey Bengough, several high grade Plows Candy cards, a stunning pennant picturing Frank Chance with New York, a Ohio Buckeyes pennant and my personal favorite, an Allen & Ginter wall poster for the N2 Indian Chief sets. I am so envious that Kieth O'Leary already owns this item. It's simpley stunning. There was also a huge bobble head collection being catalogue along with a complete set of Hartland statues with boxes and tags.<br /><br />This trip was very worthwhile and gave us some great insight as to what is involved in the authetication process for SCDA. I give them major props for being proactive about this situation and wanting to try and do what is best for everyone. Every dealer should be like this.<br /><br />As mentioned before, once I get me notes back, I'll add more and I am sure Dan will fill in anything I left out.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>I'm probably not as attuned to this deal as I ought to be before I ask questions. So I'll apologize in advance for the dumb ones. However, one issue that sort of caught my eye, and which wasn't addressed by your preliminary report, is why the ball marks on the "streak bat" seem to be consistent with a lefty hitter who used the same model bat (i.e., Tommy Henrich)? Perhaps there is a completely kosher answer and you know it. What do the authentication gods have to opine about that?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>They provided a number of photos that showed DiMaggio hitting with both the label up and the label down. So there is no one certain way that he always held his bat.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i wonder how the guy who backed out of the first deal feels and what kind of provenance(or lack of) they gave him?? that part of the "story" is puzzling.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>hi jay<br />i'm sure this IS a dumb question....but....<br />how do scda and mastro end up in same tour???<br />

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>here is another dumb question. shouldnt bushing have done his research before he sold the bat the second time instead of coming up with all this provenance after it was returned. if this was such a significant bat then he should have known that from the start, considering he is such a recognized authority

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>SCDA and Mastro were on the same the tour becuase MAstro was the one that sold the bat and were kind enough to agree to host this meeting.<br /><br />As Bushing pointed out, the game used field is all about your comfort level with the item in question becuase no matter what the provonance of the item, you are making a leap of faith as to what the item is. When the bat originally came to light, it was was thru Henrich's daughter and she knew nothing of the history of the bat. She just knew they were bats from her father's playing days. I'm not a bat expert, but I know enough about bats that if she had offered me this bat, I would not have questioned wether it was a gamer or not. It had all the proper makings for a profesional model and I am sure this is what the original deal was based on.<br /><br />I am sure the original buyer is kicking himself. But then again, he probably would have never done any further research into the bat and it would just be another DiMaggio gamer. So it was dumb luck and circumstance that brought to light the fact that this was a Streak bat.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay, sounds like the trip served its purpose for SCDA. <br /><br />Could you go back into your post and identify at which stage Bushing bought and sold (and then resold) the bat? It's hard to understand from your description just who is buying and selling the bat at various stages. <br /><br />Also, did Bushing or anyone else at SCDA or Mastro speak to conflict of interest? Did Mastro, Bushing and SCDA confirm that would contnue to conceal conflict of interest? I noticed this topic was not covered in your post. <br /><br /><br />Also, did Mastro pay for your trip? <br /><br />Thanks.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>basic timeline of the bat:<br /><br />DiMaggio gives the bat to Henrich<br />Henrich leaves bat at mother's house<br />Henrich's daughter finds bat and 5 others<br />She contacts Bushing, who buys the bats<br />Bushing sells DiMaggio bat<br />bat gets returned<br />more research done on bat<br />Tom Henrich is contacted to find out more about bat<br />bat is determined to be a Streak bat<br />bat is sold at MAstro auction to H&B<br /><br />That's about as quick and dirty as it gets<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>How was he?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>for 93, Henrich looked pretty good, but they said that video they showed was heavily edited because there were lots of long pauses with uhmmmms and errrrs. They said it also took 2 days to do because it took so much energy for him to do it. From the video you would have never guessed that, but at least they up front about it. They also mentioned that some of the best stuff lost becuase the cameraman didn't have the camera running.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>So, nothing on conflict of interest? <br /><br />Did Bushing and SCDA and Mastro explain how they feel its okay for to self-authenticate items that they owns and then conceal this information from potential buyers/bidders? <br /><br />I understand that this was a blatant PR-manipulation on their part (and judging by your post it certainly worked--gotta love those pennants), but it's disappointing all you have to post about is that you believe that the DiMaggio bat was a streak bat (shocking!!!). <br /><br />There are more issues involved than that with Matsro, SCDA and Bushing.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay, forgive m, but just for clarity, I wanted to add some detail to your timeline. <br /><br />basic timeline of the bat:<br /><br />DiMaggio gives the bat to Henrich<br />Henrich leaves bat at mother's house<br />Henrich's daughter finds bat and 5 others<br />She contacts Bushing, who buys the bats<br />Bushing sells DiMaggio bat<br />bat gets returned to Bushing<br />Bushing does more research [done] on bat<br />Bushing contacts Tom Henrich [is contacted] to find out more about bat<br />Bushing determines bat [is determined] to be a Streak bat<br />Bushing sells bat [is sold] at MAstro auction to H&B<br />Bushing's ownership of bat is concealed from buyer at Mastro auction until afterward<br /><br />Is this correct?

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Who else was in attendance it would be interesting to hear their perspective. A "heavily edited" videotape sure sounds like a possible red flag to me.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>To the conflict of interest issue. Industry standard was that it wasn't discloused in auction descriptions or on the LOA unless you asked. Not a great policy, but everyone did it, but becuase of this situation, changes have been made at SCDA so that autenticator ownership/finanacial interest is disclosed. <br /><br />As of 2005, SCDA will always note whether the autheticator had a financial interest in the item. They cannot, however, force the auction houses to list in their description the fact that the authenticator has an interest in the item. So it is now in the hands of the auction houses as to what to do.<br /><br />As to authenticators buying and selling items, I am more inclined to lean their way on this one. The main point being, would you trust an item coming from an acknowledge expert who is buying a selling and constantly handling these items, or somethone in the Field of Dreams store or HSN? As altruistic as we'd like to be, it's pretty much impossible to make a living authenticating only. In order to do that, authenticating prices would be thru the room and only the most significant pieces would ever get authenticated. Bushing and SCDA offer 100% money back gaurentees on their items, so what more can want? If you can prove them wrong, you'll get your money back.<br /><br />The same can be said about card dealers. If you are looking for a rare card, are you going trust some no name seller on eBay or an established expert like Macrae, TIK, etc? Granted, they can't take a card and make it into something more important they it really is. <br /><br />SCDA and Bushing say they stand behind their claims 100% on all items. If you can prove them wrong, they will gladly refund your money. You can't ask for much more than that. <br /><br />As Bushing and SCDA repeatedly said, there is no 100% certianty with any item unless it comes directly from the player from that exact game situation. Beyond that, it's all about the buyer's comfort level with the item you are buying. There is always a leap of faith involved.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>According to SCDA, all interested/serious parties in the bat were aware the Bushing had an interest in the bat. It wasn't disclosed was in the auction description and from our meeting, I gather that auction houses won't be changing this practice any time soon.<br /><br />As to the tape, If I remember correctly, DAve Bushing, Dan knoll and a cameraman were present. Dan knoll was also at this meeting. He said that it seemed to take a lot of mental energy to gather his thoughts, but once he started talking, was very lucid and seemed to remember in great detail events of the last game of the streak. <br /><br />If you saw the video on the auction site, then you saw the same video we got to see.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay, you know, I think you're right. I would probably trust PSA more if they were buying and selling cards they graded and authenticated. <br /><br />And how can you blame SCDA for concealing conflict of interest if its' industry standard and everyone is doing it? (I suppose if its industry standard for auto mechanics to rip off their customers, this excuses it?)<br /><br />Hilarious. <br /><br />SCDA can't force the auction houses to disclose conflict of interests? Gee, I don't know, how about not providing authentication services to those that refuse? <br /><br />BTW, since Mastro was there and "kind enough to host the visit", did you ask a Matsro representative why they refuse to disclose? <br /><br />Whoo! <br /><br />Jay, LOL at you. You play a perfect patsy. Thanks for confirming suspicions that this trip was a waste of time. Hopefully they bought you a nice lunch. <br /><br />Let's leave this one to Adam to handle in the courts.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Did you inquire how much Henrich or his family was paid for the bat? Did you inquire why Bushing had no clue it might be a streak bat the first time he bought and sold it but then decided it might be after he bought it back? (In other words, the leading expert just negligently left a fortune on the table the first time and lucked out because the first buyer was worried about the ball markings?) Did Henrich recall when, or why for that matter, Dimaggio gave him the bat? Were the other bats Henrich had also DiMaggio bats? By the way, just my opinion, but the convenient part about an executive of the buyer happening to recall being told by DiMaggio that he had given Henrich a streak bat (a fact apparently not documented anywhere else) seems a bit untrustworthy without more.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, I have one thing to say to you and anyone else that thinks the way you do...<br /><br />You did not go this meeting. You had every oppurtunity to go. You did not have to go the same day that we went. They were prepared to fly 5 people out for this, even if it meant doing it on 5 different days. It also means that you probably wouldn't have gone to the MAstro offices since SCDA had to travel from Milwaukee to get there. It would have been easier for us to fly into Milwaukee to do it. There was no need to go to the Mastro offices.<br /><br />You can believe anything you want, but until you have all the facts in front of you and saw what we saw, your opinion comes from a basis of ignorance.<br /><br />I mentioned this is my original post, and I'll mention it again:<br /><br />SCDA will gladly make this same presentation to anyone else that wants to see it, at any show they set up at. All you have to do is contact them ahead of time so they can bring the material with them.<br /><br />I'm one of the biggest synics in the world, but I am not so set in my ways that I will refuse to admit when I am wrong or unwilling to change the way I think about something. Am 100% comfortable with everything I saw what is going on? Hell no! But SCDA is trying to make postive changes. This board is single handedly responsible for them changing the format of the LOAs. <br /><br />This situation will change overnight, but it is slowly moving in the right direction.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Jay, having seen what you saw, what doubts do you continue to have and why?

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"You did not go this meeting. You had every opportunity to go. You did not have to go the same day that we went. They were prepared to fly 5 people out for this, even if it meant doing it on 5 different days. It also means that you probably wouldn't have gone to the MAstro offices since SCDA had to travel from Milwaukee to get there. It would have been easier for us to fly into Milwaukee to do it. There was no need to go to the Mastro offices." <br /><br />I didn't have the opportunity to go, Jay. I have to work and can't ask for time off so I can go to Milwaukee for a PR demonstration. <br /><br />I will however, be in Chicago for the National and would be happy to meet with any SCDA and/or Mastro representative while I'm there. In fact, I'd love to get a tour of Bill Matsro's home collection. can you swing it? <br /><br />"You can believe anything you want, but until you have all the facts in front of you and saw what we saw, your opinion comes from a basis of ignorance." <br /><br />Well, then I guess that puts us on an even playing field.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The original group of bats was bought for $45,000. There was only one DiMaggio bat in the group. <br /><br />The reason Bushing had no idea the bat was a Streak bat is becuase Henrich daughter had no clue. All she knew was that she had a bunch of bats from her father's playing days.<br /><br />Bushing did not decide that after teh initial sale fell thru that this was a Streak bat. He didn't come to this conclusion until after he started doing more reseach on the bat. Prior to the inital sale, he had no reason to believe that the bat wasn't gamer, and I know enough about bats that even with my limited knowledge, I would have been comfortable with that. He could have jsut as easily tried to flip the bat to someone else, but becuase doubts were raised about the bat, did more research on it. Bushing readily admits that this a dumb luck case. He said he was just looking to flip the bats quick and no would be the wiser if that inital deal had not fallen thru.<br /><br />Dan can probably answer this better than I can but if I remember right, he was given the bat shortyl after the streak ended.<br /><br />The H&B exeec is a former exec from years back, not a current exec. This might be another spot where Dan knows more details than I do. <br /><br />A lot of my inital post is just quick and dirty without a lot of details, so don't questions like these don't really bother me.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I still don't understand why, if the original question was just ball markings and the easy answer was that DiMaggio batted with the label up and down (which presumably Bushing should have known anyway), Bushing decided to do further "research" after the first return. I am not in any position to question his veracity, it just sounds like a strange explanation to me.

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Posted By: <b>Jim</b><p>"The reason Bushing had no idea the bat was a Streak bat is becuase Henrich daughter had no clue. All she knew was that she had a bunch of bats from her father's playing days."<br /><br />Why would the hobby's "foremost expert" on game used bats have to rely on Henrich's memory to tell him what the bat was? Not to mention the fact that Bushing holds all the H&B shipping records. Only a fool would believe that no research was done until the bat was called into question. You can't tell me that he didn't check the records closely the minute he bought the bat.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I can't speak to what Bushing did when he initally got the bat, but I don't doubt he probably checked all marking against his database and saw they were good. If he did that, he had no real reason to check further than that. He had provanace and the proper markings for a DiMaggio gamer. He wasn't loking to "create" anything. He just wanted to the flip the bats quick so he could get his $45k back. Sloppy. Yes, but it turned into a good thing in the long run.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>so your 30 minute public relations presentation makes you an expert on the bat now. while the rest of us remain ingorant to the facts that somehow the bat turned into a streak bat after it was returned. if bushing was such and expert he would have done his research BEFORE selling the bat the first time, not after it was returned for questions relating to the authenticity. there is zero evidence this is an actual streak bat beyond that of the memory of a 93 year old man who may or may not be lucid. no matter how many pictures they show of dimaggio with the label down. let me see a single picture of this actual bat being used during the streak. are any of the pictures of dimaggio with the label down from the streak or are they from 36 or 51

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>So why did he have any reason to check further when the bat got returned because the buyer was misinformed about ball markings? It still isn't adding up in my mind. Again, I am not saying I doubt Bushing because I haven't met him and can't assess his credibility first hand, but this explanation does not add up to me. Indeed, now that I think about it, he should have been able to tell the first time what time period the bat was from (based on the H and B records) and THAT ALONE should have prompted "further research" into whether it was a streak bat and thus possibly worth hundreds of thousands more, no? What am I missing here?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Here are some of the facts as presented to us by Robert Plancich:<br /><br />-DiMaggio never batted label down.<br />He is wrong. Not only were we shown game action pictures provided by the HoF, but we also got to handle other game used DiMaggio bats that showed use on all parts of the bat.<br />-He stated the video asks leading questions.<br />He is wrong. Unless we saw a different video than he did.<br /><br /><br />There were also things that I had misconceptions about. I'm not sure if Plancich said the Ichiro bat was given an A-10 or not, but that bat was put up for auction before SCDA even had that system in place. This really seemed like a sore subject to Bushing. He stated that they got screwed by Ichiro's agent on that one. Which goes to show that you really can't trust anyone's word on something like that. Which leads to the leap of faith in the game-used collectible field. <br /><br />Leap of faith - are we to take Tommy Henrich at his word??? After having read his book "Five O'Clock Lightning" and done other research on him I could find nothing anywhere that would question his integrity or character. There are too many things going for this bat that I think Henrich is telling the truth. PBOR records for DiMaggio prove that this bat was ordered for only 1941 - 1942. The PBOR's also show that Henrich ordered the same type of bat, but they would have had Henrich's name on them and not DiMaggio's. Henrich stated himself that DiMaggio gave the bat to him because he loaned him his bat when DiMaggio's was stolen between games 41 and 42. It should be noted that in other research I did it showed that DiMaggio did realize the historical importance of such items associated with the streak as he did give away his spikes he used during the streak to the sister of the good fella who found his missing bat. Would Joe have given these items away if they had the tremendous value of todays market??? Doubtful, but in 1941 items like that had very little monetary value.<br /><br />Would I have given this bat an A-10? I don't think so, but I would not hesitate to call it A-9. IMO A-10 should never be given on someones word, even if that word corroborates all the evidence. I'm not sure A-10 exists outside of the bat being handed directly to someone from SCDA at the ballpark right after the player used it. But that's my opinion on rock solid provenance.<br /><br />I can see already that someone is questioning our integrity. All I can say to that is that you were not there. If a "dog and pony show" is being shown player batting order records, game used bats, and testimony from the former player himself then yes I guess we got swayed by the "dog and pony show". Anyone is welcome to see the same "dog and pony show" we saw at the National.<br /><br />I'm not going to go into detail about what they said about Robert Plancich and his lawsuit with H&B, but if what they say is true then he has some explaining to do, and I imagine that it will be explained in court. That doesn't mean that what they said is true, but I will be following this case closely. I've heard both sides now and Robert Plancich made some clearly false statements regarding this bat. <br /><br />With the physical evidence supporting this bat and with Tommy Henrich's word on it I choose to believe this bat is the real deal. If you want to impugn my integrity by saying I was swayed by the pretty lights all I have to say is you don't know me. I am a member of SABR and I take baseball research very seriously. I have formed an educated opinion the onus is now on you to do your own research if you disagree with me.<br /><br />Dan

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>You don't give Bushing enough credit on this. When he checked the markings on the bat to make sure it was good, he would have seen when this particular type of bat might have been shipped to DiMaggio. If it was anywhere near 1941, you cannot tell me he wouldn't have done additional homework. This guy has been quoted as saying he pays the IRS six figures every year - flipping something to recoup $45,000 is not how he operates. These guys "create" stuff all the time - cases in point, the mid-1960's Mantle glove Billy Crystal bought as a '61, the mid-1970's Seaver glove billed as a '69, and so on.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Bushing wasn't sloppy about his research he knew from the pbor's that this bat was "possibly" used during the streak the first moment he got it. He tried to sell it for $90,000 as a "possible streak bat". When someone told the buyer that DiMaggio only batted label up Bushing took the bat back and called Henrich's daughter to ask if this bat was used by Henrich. She put him in contact with her father and that's when he said it was a streak bat that was given to him by DiMaggio.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>If he thought it was a "possible" streak bat from the start why would he not have followed up then to see if he was sitting on a gold mine or not?

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"So why did he have any reason to check further when the bat got returned because the buyer was informed about ball markings?" <br /><br />Pure speculation on my part, but I would imagine having just had the bat returned and his judgment questioned, Bushing was highly-motivated to try and sell the bat again (so he wouldn't take a loss on his purchase). <br /><br />So Bushing needs to work extra-hard to try and prove the bat is real so he can make money off it and also have an explanation as to why he was trying to sell a bat that had already been returned once as not a gamer (in case anybody found that out). <br /><br />BTW, a very valid point is raised. Shouldn't the original purchaser have a legal claim against Bushing for failing to properly authenticate the bat in the first place, thus costing him potential profits from selling the bat? <br /><br />I actually feel bad for Henrich's daughter. How badly was she ripped off by Bushing? <br /><br />Hey, Jay, did Bushing reveal how much he initially paid for the bat? How much did it ultimately sell for again? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Because they had already sold another bat just like it a few years ago and he knew the value of what he already had. He paid 45,000 for it and sold it immediately for $90,000. I doubt he knew it would go for $350,000 at auction. Did anyone know it would go that high?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Aaron, they have a letter from the Henrich family stating that they are happy with the deal. The deal with the Henrich family was reworked after that bat was re-sold last April to H&B. Of course you could have gone to Chicago yourself to find out all of that and you can still arrange to meet with them at the National. You've already impugned Jay's integrity on this matter without seeing all of the facts for yourself so I challenge you to set up this meeting with SCDA. If you choose not to then that says a lot about you.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"...but we also got to handle other game used DiMaggio bats that showed use on all parts of the bat." <br /><br />This is so cool, Dan. I don't know why anybody would question your favorable reaction to Mastro and SCDA after this kind of treatment. <br /><br />When I visit with them at the National, my wish list is to tour the Mastro facility and see all of their cool summer offerings (I would assume I'll be allowed to handle whatever I want). I'd also like to visit Bill Mastro's home and see his personal collection. As I've noted before, seeing his collection on TV is what motivated me to get back into the hobby, so this would be a big thrill for me (hint, hint). <br /><br />BTW, what should I expect by way of food? Did they give you a stipend or provide a buffet? If it's a buffet, then I'd like some input on what they serve (I hate fish). <br /><br />Also, did they put you up at a hotel? How about airfare? My wife is advising me to schedule my trip to Mastro and SCDA during the National so they can pick up the tab for airfare and hotel.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The original group of bats was purchased for $45k. Bushing said they figured $30-35k of it for the DiMaggio bat. After the bat was returned and then later verified to be a Streak bat, Bushing says that the proceedes beyond $100k (I think this is right) were split 50/50. Dan can correct me on this, if I am wrong. But the Henrich family ended up with more than $45k for the bats.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Dan and Jay:<br /><br />I do not think that anyone questions your integrity.<br /><br />However, it is reasonable to question your assessment, in part because much of the authentication certainty rests on statements of an individual who exhibits "lots of long pauses with uhmmmms and errrrs" in his speach pattern. One can easily wonder how much he was led into the statements which were shown on a tape which was edited, reportedly, to enhance continuity.<br /><br />This attribution reeks of dishonesty, in my inexperienced opinion. But I wasn't there.<br /><br />What can you offer to substantiate the validity of Henrich's statements?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The pre-auction estimate they said they had for the bat was $150k.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, the offer for an all expense paid trip has long expired. I also doubt you are going to be able to get a tour of the MAstro offices. It took a great leap of faith on their part jsut to let us in there and show us around. The Mastro offices are not set up for tours. Thy barely have enough room to get around in there the way it is.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Aaron, they have a letter from the Henrich family stating that they are happy with the deal. The deal with the Henrich family was reworked after that bat was re-sold last April to H&B." <br /><br />Dan, that sure was nice of them. How much did she end up getting all-told?<br /> <br />"Of course you could have gone to Chicago yourself to find out all of that and you can still arrange to meet with them at the National." <br /><br />No way, man. I have a yob and a life, unfortunately. But, yes, I will see them in Chicago (I'm planning details in a previous post). Which travel agent should I book through? <br /><br />"You've already impugned Jay's integrity on this matter without seeing all of the facts for yourself so I challenge you to set up this meeting with SCDA. If you choose not to then that says a lot about you." <br /><br />Hey, I'm telling you, I'm there. No way am I going to miss out on a chance to check out all sorts of cool memorabilia and get some free food. The real question is if they will pay my travel expenses like they did you. <br /><br />SCDA and Mastro, please contact me to set up my visit. (I'll be in Chicago on the Thursday and Friday of the National, but I'm going to a Cubs game on Friday. Hey, can you guys spring for the tickets, as part of my tour/demonstration?) I'm serious. I want in. Please be advised, I'm more of a Gehrig fan, so if you have any of his bats, I'd like to handle them instead of DiMaggio.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Aaron, the offer for an all expense paid trip has long expired. I also doubt you are going to be able to get a tour of the MAstro offices." <br /><br />Yeah, I guess their motivation is gone now that you and Dan have done your jobs for them. <br /><br />So no airfare and no hotel. My wife is going to be disappointed. No buffet either? That's just plain rotten. <br /><br />If I don't get to see the Mastro offices, then what's the point? I want to see cool stuff, or my tour is pointless. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gilbert, we are talking about a 93 year old man, not a someone in their 30s or 40s. When I go talk to my grandma it involves a lot pauses, uhmms and errs. It's perfectly normal for someone that age. And considering it got posted on the net, there is no way you could leave completely unedited and hope that people with slow connection could ever see the whole thing.<br /><br />Was DiMaggio stingy. Everyone close to him says yes. But these same people also say that was also quite generous when called for.<br /><br />As Dan said and I said, I wouldn't give the bat an A10, but then it's not my money and reputation on the line. If Bushing and SCDA are comfortable with A10 and backing it up 100%, then that is their call.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Josh A.</b><p>Sounds like an interesting trip. <br /><br />Aaron, you can stay at my house, I live 20 minutes away from Rosemont, but I doubt we'll have any buffets!! <br /><br />Jay, where did you stay while in Chicago?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>It was strictly a day trip. We got in around 10am, was taken directly to the MAstro offices where we spent the day except for lunch which we ate at a sportbar in the same area. The flew out at 6pm.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>That arouses my suspicions immediately. Was Henrich so addled that he needed long pauses to get up the wind to answer questions? Or was he studying his lines, being coached, etc.? What really happened during those lapses? Add that to allegedly missing footage of really good comments and you have some very questionable evidence at the heart of the debate. We have a "colorful" history on the transaction populated with people attesting to facts who have six-figure financial incentives to puff up those facts, including a family exploiting a very old man for profit. Does that add up to an A10 item? Anyone ever heard the word "bias" before? <br /><br />As far as Robert Plancich goes, my client is reserving his comments on the case until after the case is over. He's never said that the bat was not a DiMaggio bat but questioned the integrity and the candor of the financially interested authenticator who vouched for it as unquestionably an A10 streak bat given the facts that were disclosed and undisclosed. Had SCDA and the others answered the questions about the bat authentication process up front and acknowledged up front that the authenticator stood to profit from the sale, perhaps there would be no continuing public furor over it. Suffice it to say that if this matter progresses beyond the initial pleading stages all of the evidence in its unaltered form will come to light.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Do we know if it still exists in its unedited form? If so, it would certainly be interesting to know what was "edited." Perhaps it was not significant, perhaps it was. Ask 60 Minutes about how important editing can be.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Josh: Thanks, now I just need someone to spring for my flight (or offer use of their private jet) and the wife won't have any excuse to keep me from attending the National.<br /><br />Dan and Lee: I want to make perfectly clear so that there's no misunderstanding that non-one is questioning your integrity. <br /><br />Rather we are questioning your susceptibility to manipulation. Mastro/SCDA paid for all travel expenses to arrange a tour of their facilities where you were shown what they wanted you to see and nothing more. In the process you were allowed to examine some cool items and I'm sure were treated in a very friendly and personal manner. <br /><br />When you come back to post on your visit, you sound like mouthpieces for SCDA/Mastro with nothing but praise while repeating their conclusions and defenses of their actions ("everybody did it", "industry standard", "new policy", "we can't force auction houses to disclose", etc.) including the financial need for authenticators to act as dealers as well (this despite the fact that Bushing apparently cleared $250K on the streak bat!) and dismissing the undisclosed conflict of interest issue as minor and now beyond their control. Seriously, would you then say Alan Hager wasn't doing anything wrong? <br /><br />Basically people dismissed this demonstration as a PR stunt before the trip, and you've confirmed it. <br /><br />Of course, I don't blame you. If I were a Disney collector and Disney gave me an all-expense paid trip and behind-the-scenes tour of Disney World, I'm sure it would effect my objectivity as well. <br /><br />Anyway, at least you got to handle some cool bats. That alone was worth the trip. <br /><br />Adam: Glad to hear you are helping Planich out. (I felt bad for the guy when the suit was first announced.) I have a feeling that this suit is going to majorly backfire in the faces of the auction/authentication industry once depositions start (and imagine if it actually goes to trial, woof). .

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, until you get to know the 3 of us personally, you have no basis to pass judgement on us and how easily we can be swayed by anything. As I've said before, I am the most synical poerson in the world, always looking for hidden subtext meaning of anything. You ahven't seen the evidence presented to us. Until such time that you can meet with SCDA, you opinion is basically worthless. <br /><br />If you have questions, I will answer them, but as long as you continue impune the integrity of the 3 of us, I will ignore what you have to say beyond a legit question.<br /><br />If you think my opinion can be bought off taht easily, thenyou truly have no clue who I am and what my morals and beliefs are. If I could be swayed this easily, I'd still be working as a nuclear engineer or as a desk jockey for some company. Money and pretty things cannot buy me off. Facts will change my mind though.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay: <br /><br />Sorry, man, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. It would appear you have adopted the SCDA position on conflict of interest and disclosure and that's something I just can't support. <br /><br />Regardless of whether the trip was a PR farce or a legitimate, transparent inquiry, I think the issues presented are best left to Adam and the Planich lawsuit. Certainly whatever questions we have regarding SCDA and the various auction houses it authenticates and consigns to will be answered under that neutral proceeding (and under oath). <br /><br />Anyway, as far as legit questions, one thing I was wondering is what percentage of game used bats and other equipment that are carried in an average Mastro auction were also consigned by SCDA or its authenticators? <br /><br />The reason I'm asking (and this was a question I placed to you earlier in the thread) is why Mastro and other auction houses are resistant to the idea of disclosing conflict of interest in an item description? <br /><br />Wouldn't it remove the appearance of impropriety if they just listed "LOA and Consignment by Bushing" or whoever happened to authenticate it if he also owned the item? <br /><br />To me it seems like a simple step, so I don't understand their aversion to it.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the auction houses also should disclose any restoration (even if in the opinion of the auction house it is not material) at least with respect to cards where there does not appear to be a consensus on what is material. I cannot comment on other collectibles where there may be a consensus. And I fully concur with Aaron that if an auctioned item has been authenticated by the consignor himself, that ought to be disclosed clearly. Why isn't it done? I still haven't heard a good explanation.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Aaron, do you think I like eating crow? I'm eating it....I was wrong on this bat. Robert Plancich posted things to this board as if they were fact that were shown to us with hard evidence to just be flat out wrong. Mastro nor SCDA were set up to give us a tour for this....I asked them for a tour. I sincerely hope that this does go to court now so the rest of you will be able to see the evidence for yourselves. For now you can take your snarky comments and shove 'em up your ass.<br /><br />Dan

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"For now you can take your snarky comments and shove 'em up your ass." <br /><br />Okay, so long as you don't confuse my ass with SCDA's and start kissing it. <br /><br />Anyway, I don't see why you have to get so upset. I hope I get a chance to tour the MastroNet facilities while I'm in Chicago myself. It sounded like alot of fun. <br /><br />Besides, we are in agreement about the legal proceeding. I think we can fruitlessly debate the topic back and forth, but that's going to be an appropriate venue to shed real light on the issues in an impartial setting.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Your confusing kissing SCDA's ass with forming an opinion based on facts. I knew that there were going to be some people who were not going to change their minds no matter what. I got Robert's side of the story here on Network 54, and I went to Chicago and got the other side of the story. I formed an educated opinion. You on the other hand have not. You have only made assumptions about me and the others involved. You're an anonymous ******* posting on the internet. Hardly worth my time. Carry on.

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>Dan, I think you should chill. In one of if not your first posts on this thread you take a shot at anyone who would call this a dog and pony show. Well, the only one to use that term is your fellow traveler Jay, who used it in the first line of the first post. So too Jay takes swipes at those who have formed a different opinion on the bat, or who even question the presentation you were given, claiming that your integrity is being impugned. At least he doesn't tell folks to shove it--does that make you feel better?<br /><br />I agree with others that the matter can be disputed. You claim that Plancich was caught in lies, and you give two examples. First you claim it is undeniable that JoeD batted both label up and label down, which Plancich says never happened. I'll give you that one, although personally I always thought it unlikely that JoeD batted every single time one way or the other over his career, particularly as ballplayers are notoriously quirky about trying things to break slumps. Second you claim the videotape is devoid of leading questions and Plancich Lied about that, "unless he saw a different video". Well, maybe he did, given some of the things that concededly occurred as to editing. Also, are you a litigator? I can tell you that I know lawyers here in Phoenix (and thus presumably everywhere) who could ask questions in such a way that the guy would admit to being Benjamin Franklin and in possession of the kite. Under the circumstances, I hardly think it's out of line to question the contents of the video.<br /><br />So have you really unmasked Plancich as a charlatan, and debunked the underlying premise that the bat is not a streak gamer? Please allow me to be unconvinced, for although I believe you and Jay believe it, and I have no problems with your motivations, the question remains unresolved to me.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Dan, what's with all the name-calling? I just don't know why you are so ashamed of yourself. With everything they were throwing at you guys, it's easy to understand how you could be so manipulated. <br /><br />I mean whether you believe their authentication of the streak bat was valid or not, it doesn't change any of their policies of undisclosed conflict of interest, and to me that's a major issue that SCDA and their client auction houses just don't get. But who cares, at least you guys got a free lunch! <br /><br />Anyway, I'm in the process of negotiating my visit with SCDA as we speak, but I'm not budging unless I get a tour of the MastroNet facility or Bill Mastro's personal collection. Otherwise, what's the point? <br /><br />And I'm going to be open about my impending gushing about SCDA and Mastro. If I get the tour (and especially if I get my travel expenses to the National paid for), I'm going to have nothing but positives to say, as such: "Conflict of interest? What conflict of interest?" and "Hey, authenticators have to feed their families, too." Etc. <br /><br />BTW, did they give you guys any freebies to take home? (I still have a Mastro tape measure I got at the National a couple years ago, but I bet you have that beat!)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Nuff Sed</b><p>How about it Jay, your video recording will speak for itself.<br />After all, you're not going to edit what you tape. .... are you???

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>if they haven't already, and that's examining Mr. Henrich's past. I truly am not here to pick on a 93 year old, especially as I am a Yankees fan who loves reading about those old great teams. Still, has anyone looked at his activities over the past 25 years or so? A streak bat would have been a very hot and valuable commodity for at least that long.<br /><br />I say this because if Henrich attended card shows, old-timers events and other Yankee re-union functions, it would have been apparent, I would think, that anything Dimaggio-related was highly valuable, and anything streak related even moreso. Just sitting and talking to his old teammates and witnessing the various prices being paid by those in attendance would alert someone that all old Yankee stuff is a gold mine. Now, if he was there at a number of events over so many years (and I'm not saying he was), wouldn't something have sparked in his memory to look into whether he had some old game-used stuff from back in the day? Isn't it odd that so much time passed before this bat surfaces--with the old "I forgot"? <br /><br />I know it would be hard to prove anything from such an examination, but it is at least relevant and in my view probative.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The "dog and pony show" comment goes back to a thread started a few weeks ago. The video is a sticking point as I would like to see unedited video of that and I'm sure that is something that will be subpeonaed if this goes to court. As I said earlier I still would not have given this bat an A-10, but there was so much thrown around in this forum that was just plain wrong about a lot of things. The pbor's are still owned by H&B and Bushing only has copies of them and he doesn't even have all of the records. He does have access to them though. It was said that he paid $30,000 to the Henrich family for the bat. That was wrong. Much of this stuff was printed by Michael O'Keefe in the New York paper. It was said that Mastro was misleading in how they characterized the relationship between DiMaggio and Henrich and their is no evidence to show this. <br /><br />I came to the forum to report my conclusions having seen and heard both sides of the story. I don't need snarky comments questioning my integrity from someone who doesn't know me. This forum should be proud that they helped foster change in the hobby regarding disclosure of ownership of authenticated items.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Todd: Those are interesting points. My question, however, would be why Henrich only remembered after the bat was purchased by Dave Bushing? <br /><br />I mean, if Henrich or his family wanted to benefit financially, wouldn't he have imparted this information to his daughter prior to her selling the bat to Bushing for approximately $35,000, considering Bushing was then able to sell the bat for close to $300,000? <br /><br />It seems to me that Bushing (and MastroNet via their commissions) benefited from Henrich's recollections more than Henrich did. Although, perhaps that's not the case, as Jay and Dan claim the Henrich's were later cut in on the final sale.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Great questions Aaron. You would have the answer to both of those had you been there. But since you're arranging a visit with them at the National I'll let SCDA answer them for you.

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Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>This is great!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"This forum should be proud that they helped foster change in the hobby regarding disclosure of ownership of authenticated items." <br /><br />What change? <br /><br />Setting aside the streak bat, this much is known: <br /><br />SCDA and its individual authenticators long practiced self-authentication of items they owned, which were then consigned to auction houses without the conflict of interest being disclosed to potential bidders. <br /><br />This was publicly revealed last month. <br /><br />After this was revealed, SCDA responded by instituting a policy whereby AFTER the winning bidder has won and received his item a box will be "checked" to indicate SCDA or one of its authenticators owned the item. The winning bidder then has thirty days to prove the item is NOT authentic (and he or she has to not only prove a negative but also pay for the costs associated with evaluating the item again and then run the risk of Mastro/SCDA not accepting his contrary findings). <br /><br />SCDA's individual authenticators still refuse to stop their practice of authenticating items they sell. <br /><br />Auction houses (namely Mastro) still refuse to identify an item as having been self-authentivcated by the consignor in the item description so that potential bidders can be made aware of the conflict of interest PRIOR to bidding (when it matters most as this is when the bidder makes his decision of whether to bid or not and how much to bid). <br /><br />SCDA still refuses to withhold authentication services from auction houses who won't disclose their conflict of interest beforehand. <br /><br />SCDA still refuses to withhold consignments from auction houses who won't disclose their conflict of interest beforehand. <br /><br />I have asked SCDA to institute these policies both in this forum and via private e-mail. So far to no avail. So a system is still in place where a bidder purchases an item only to find out after the fact that the item's LOA was obtained from the consignor himself. I suspose this is better than not knowing at all, but to me this still falls far short of adequaltely addressing the problem, since the conflict of interest remains undisclosed when bids occur. <br /><br />If these discrepancies change, then yes, we can say we have affected change. Otherwise, I believe they have simply taken the path of least resistance that is least threatening to the current auction system and their financial interest in it. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Aaron, you are wrong on at least one of your assertions. I won't tell you which one though because my opinion was bought and paid for with a free lunch and a tour of Mastronet that was well worth spending half a day in various airports for. You'll just have to find out for yourself at the National.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Well, I wouldn't hold your breath--Troy's stopped responding to my e-mails. <br /><br />But I will put this out there to whomever is reading: <br /><br />I will be in Chicago from Thursday through Saturday of the National. I will be available at any time during my stay to meet with MastroNet and/or SCDA representatives other than Friday afternoon when I will be attending a Cubs game. <br /><br />My only conditions are: <br /><br />1. The meeting takes place at MastroNet's offices or in Bill Mastro's home. (Otherwise, it's not worth me taking time away from my vacation.) <br /><br />2. My wife gets to attend with me. (I can't leave her at the hotel--think of the room service charges!)<br /><br />No-one has to buy me anything or give me anything or serve me anything (I'll bring my own snacks). And you can even videotape me until the cows come home (just be kind--the camera adds ten pounds), or whatever else you need to do to protect yourselves legally. Hell, I'll even sign an NDA. I would consider it my personal little trip to Mecca.

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Posted By: <b>My Outfield</b><p>Todd, I have a ball that was authgraphed about fourteen or more years back, collected over a period of different card shows by me.<br />There are only three names on it.<br />Joe D is on the sweet spot.<br />Charlie "King Kong" Keller the left fielder is on the left panel.<br />Tommy "Ol' Reliable" Henrich the right fielder, on the right panel.<br /><br />Todd, you can bet your last centavo that the boys knew about the memorabilia gold mine.<br /><br />You gotta remember these boys didn't have agents to negoiate their own contracts.<br />They would sit opposite the Jacob Rupert's or Dan Topping's and work out their own contracts.<br /><br />The boy's were not naive. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Perhaps someone from one of the auction houses or their proxies will answer this. Why can't they simply disclose, before the fact, and not in fine print, all instances where the consignor and the authenticator are the same person. I understand, based on something I believe Jay said, that there just isn't enough money in authentication to make a living, and I accept that. So if authenticators must also purchase and sell items, so be it. But why not follow a practice of full disclosure, and let the buyers decide whether or not they care that the consignor has authenticated his own items? Last time I posed this question in a thread where someone (was it Mr. Martinez?) was defending the auction houses, it never was answered. It does not appear to have been answered, or even asked as best I can tell, in connection with the recent "trip," although in fairness it arguably was beyond the scope of the trip. But WHY? What is the answer? Anyone?

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Posted By: <b>Check One</b><p>Under what category does The SCDA trip fall under?

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Posted By: <b>Giants00</b><p>Jay,<br />Thank you very much for posting on the trip. There are a lot of people who have a lot of anger. It gets a lot harder to be universally negative in the face of real people and real facts. there are issues, but i think what you are showing is that we are not dealing with crooks, but human beings. I do think that there are a lot of legitimate questions that should be asked about the auction houses, and about why they will not disclose things. that is of course for a different thread.<br />dan

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The explanation they gave to us was that they do a lot of business with different auction houses and they don't want to have to explain to one auction house why they consigned a certain item to that house instead of theirs. Take that for what it's worth.

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Posted By: <b>shellyjaffe</b><p>I find it amazing that in one day the good guys are bad guys and the bad guys are know the good guys. I think the courts should decide who is right or wrong. I also think that the auction houses are at fault when they sell items from the people that authenticate and own that same item. That is truly a conflict of interest. This thread is like being on the streets of New York and playing Three Card Monte. Now you see it Now you dont. My question would be how, in less than a day, can you make up your mind?

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Dan and Jay have covered pretty much everything that happened at the meeting. The responses by the handful here were expected. The big fact that swayed me towards this being a Streak bat was the fact that the bat a a wieght on the bottom of the bat and had to be specifically asked for and was added to the notes on the order, a lomited number were ordered this way (22 I believe). The time frame of the bat order and when the bat receieved by HEinrich is what conviced me that There is a very strong possiblity that it is a streak bat. I also do not believe it should not have got a A10. There is NO definitive way of authenticating memoribilia, but there is alot of strong eveidence indicating that this is a streak bat.<br /><br />Troy, Dan and Dave have no preconceived notition that there is always a window that any item is not what it is said to be. This is why they have started SCDA authenicated. They hide no fact in how an item is authenicated and will give the submitted the evidence and a checklist to the grade they applied. This is exactly what everyone wants from the card grading companies and they are doing it in there business. Our flights were paid for by SCDA out of there pockets. They made no sales pitch just presented there case and we asked the questions (many of which were answered before we asked in there presentation).<br /><br />What I got out of Dave Bushing from the initial sale of the bat is that they had authenticated it sold it to a customer (had bought bats preivously from him) at a show and on the way out the a comment was made to the gentleman about Dimaggio batting left handed, this prompted him to bring it back to Dave at which point he gave him his money back. As far as why didn't he do deep research right away I guess only Dave can answer that. but as to the fact he did do the research after the encounter and it turned out quite fruitful. Dave had the opportunity to turn the bat quickly for a profit but circumstance change teh whole situation. If this gentleman that bought it at the show had just left it would be just another Dimaggio bat. They did bring along 3 other original Dimagio bats, so thes guys have handled Dimaggio bats in the past and none magically became the streak bat.<br /><br />I also want to reaffirm a fact Dan Berretta pointed out is that after it was deemed a streak bat, they rework the deal with the Heinrich family to there satisfaction, they were not obligated to do this. The "leap of Faith" is a part of buying memorabilia of this type and is accepted in these transactions. to what degree the "Leap of Faith" is has alot to do with the price. Unless you received the item personally there is really no way to prove in your mind that it actually is what some says it is. Having eveidence to back up the authenticity of the item is what takes an item from an A1 to A10.<br /><br />Everyone can form their own opinion, I was very skepitcal going into this and came out of this with all the evidence presented that there was every reason to believe that this has a very strong possibilty of being a streak bat. <br /><br />As far as those of you that used the excuse that you do not have the time to go meet with them and see them same thing we did. I work 6 days a week, I went on my one day off. It was all done in one day and they were more than willing to work around the schedules of those who wish to have gone. Instead of just writing of all this sceptictism everyone had the opportunity to go to this and SCDA is willing to meet with anyone at a show they are set up at, they do ask that you give advance notice. The "horse and pony show" was a reference to the early thread. <br /><br />I give Troy, Dan Knoll, the people at Mastro auction and Dave Bushing a thank you for taking there time to give us this opportunity. We got in the way many times at Mastro but the people were very nice and approachable.<br /><br /><br />We went to Chicago to see all the facts and here from the people involved. We did that formed our own conclusions, which for turned out that we all came to the conclusion that they were justified in naming the bat a streak bat.<br /><br />Lee Behrens <br />bowlingshoegiverouterguy

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>So the policy of nondisclosure is set not by the auction houses but by the authenticators themselves, and the purpose is to keep the identity of their consigned items a secret from the other auction houses? Well, I guess it an explanation, although a purely self-interested one and not one I find satisfactory given the consequence to the consumer. But thanks for shedding light on it Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Conspiracy theories will always be around, however, it sounds like that the evidence points to a streak bat. Did Bushing mess up initially by not researching things enough? Probably. Was there financial gain for him once it was determined to be a streak bat? Yes. Can an interview with a 93 year old be sketchy? Of course. But when everything is weighed together, it does seem to point to one conclusion. <br /><br />The upcoming lawsuit will be very interesting. I think voices such as Robert Planich need to be heard, but I it sounds like the guys that made this trip when it with the Planich state of mind and therefore were convinced he was right. Lets see what happens with the lawsuit. <br /><br />My 1/2 cent worth.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Can anyone name an auction house that does not have there own authenticators? is this not a conflict of interest? How many of you that question these auction houses purchase from them? I do not like all there policies but the chose is boycott or buy. We are all skeptics but lives a risk, the best way to get by is to educate yourself to make the decisions you feel comfortable with.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Can anyone name an auction house that does not have there own authenticators? is this not a conflict of interest? How many of you that question these auction houses purchase from them?" <br /><br />This one's easy: Like most collectors, I suspect, I had absolutely no idea that SCDA and its individual authenticators were authenticating items and then consigning those same items to auction houses. <br /><br />Then this information became public last month. <br /><br />Now that I know that this kind of undisclosed conflict of interest takes place, you better believe I'm going to be extremely cautious about it the next auction. I just feel bad for all the potential bidders who don't know that this kind of practice actually takes place. <br /><br />Again, personally, this is such a blatant conflict of interest it wouldn't even have occurred to me to ask about it, so I suspect most collectors won't even know that the burden of discovering conflict of interest at auction houses rests on them and not the authenticators and auction houses themselves (who will continue to conceal their conflict of interest unless asked directly). <br /><br />Anyway, I plan on putting my newfound knowledge to the test in Mastro's April auction. Once the auction is up, I'm going to ask Mastro for a list of all items in the auction which have been authenticated and consigned by SCDA and/or any of its individual authenticators. <br /><br />If Mastro is as forthcoming as they claim they will be, then I'll post the list here on this message site and we can all review the items and get a better idea what percentage of game-used items in the auction have been consigned by SCDA and/or its authenticators (assuming Mastro is honest) and then discuss whether we agree with their findings or if we think a financial motivation might be involved. <br /><br />All in all I think that could be very informative to collectors and help make better judgments when deciding to bid on items or not.

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Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Just as an aside, sniping at the Jay, Lee and Dan is a little ridiculous when Jay offered on several threads and the chat room sessions, to post any question that anyone had regarding the bat. Posting questions that they were not asked to check on is a little ridiculous at this time.<br /><br />My other 1/2 worth.

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p> I was under the impression that the three of you were acting as our representatives or journalist of sorts and we're going to provide an accurate account of the meeting. <br /> The first rule in proper journalism or broadcasting is when you have finished reading the article or viewed the event you wouldn't be able to tell who the reporters were rooting for. I suggest that had you followed this approach to some degree all would have been better served. <br /> I hope this makes sense Jay and Dan. How classy that would have been to list the information, which by the way could have been weighted if desired, and then say "I have developed my opinion on the subject but that doesn't matter. Here's the information we gathered for our group to decide for themselves" we'd gladly attempt to answer any other questions. Oh well. <br /> Now I hear a good question I'd love to hear your response and we get this, "plan your own trip if you want to know"<br /> I wasn't under the impression there were spots available or worthy based on my tenure here to attend. Personally I am smack dab in the middle of the exact issue. Mr. Bushing and Mr. Taube are currently authenicating a pair of bats with tens of thousands of dollars hanging in the balance. I still would have been completely unbiased. I asked one valved member here and he blew me off as crazy to ask about going.<br />I assure everyone had I gone You would have received a professional summary that wouldn't have prompted any childish behavior and would have benefited from bonus Q&A's I have to be answered. <br /> So in lieu of that I have some questions.<br /> Went do we get to see Jay's video of the meeting. I'm sure others feel this would be more benefical then the current narration system.<br /> What gifts were you given from SCD MastroNet? <br /> Don't Henrich bat find, further study, his videotape evidence, more value, big kickback to family all tie together? Was he told prior to taping that with his documentation the bat would bring more and he'll receive half of anything over 100K. Answer that question please.<br /> I don't know any of you but I have following this very closely and was shocked when the Recon team left with "the ain't fooling us what other questions do you have? we'll get the smut" and returned "Hey We guarantee it 100% and screw you to question us, you should of gone yourself" literaly overnight. <br /> By the way I'd love to go. I have 50 great questions and would offer just verbatum answers

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Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>Robert Edwards Auctions does not have in house authenicators. They require two seperate grading opinions and describe the item based on that information. The most accurate, professional run sports auctions on this planet.

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Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>I'm an impartial party on this issue, in that I have no interest in acquiring game-used memorabilia and strongly doubt I ever will. I know Dan, Lee & Jay went in as non-believers and came out convinced that there was significant merit to the claims of Dave Bushing and SCDA. Were they hoodwinked by the bright lights? It doesn't sound like it to me, and I say that after I spoke to Jay today to get more info. I think they were shown some compelling evidence. <br /><br />I absolutely agree that no one who authenticated an item should be the seller of that item. If you were trying to sabotage your integrity, you couldn't do a better job. But the fact that H&B bought this bat and plan to display it in their museum carries weight - they think it's as advertised.<br /><br />I wish Robert P. luck with his case (or whatever we'd call it). It shouldn't have come to that.<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I wish to thank Jay, Lee and Dan for taking the efforts of going to Mastro. As has been noted, there were 5 spots offered here on this very board quite a while ago to take the trip and only these three chose to go. <br /><br />I don't know Dan, but I know Lee and Jay. In my opinion, they are inteligent and far from being shills, and their opinions have weight with me.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The question I now an answer to is that we received airline ticket (pd by SCDA), transportation to Mastro,a bottle of water at Mastro, they let us use there bathrooms (really nice),lunch, that included a beer, Old Mastro catalogs that wirhed a ton and Dan Knoll scraped me up a Mastro magnifying glass out of his cars and transportation back to the airport. That is the extend of anything of monetary value that they sent our way.<br /><br />There actually waas a reporter on hand that will be writing an article for SCD on the whole meeting, maybe that will satisfying your need for a professional report. Ijust don't understand the response that tell us how we were suppose to handle ourselves the questions to ask when everyone single one of us had a chance to go and handle it our own way. <br /><br />Steve, You seem to have alot of questions and trepidation I am curious as to why you did not volunteer to go, you said you followed the situation closely. How many bats have you sent off to SCDA and PSADNA, why chose 2 different authenticators? What is the history behind your bats that made you believe that they are real? I believe that all of us could come up with scenarios to your story that you have created the story to help authenticate and enhance the sale of your bats. This is just the nature of the beast. It is the type of evidence tied to your bats that will decided the degreee to it's authenticity.<br /><br />All the questions you pose about the whole Heinrich situation are valid and were brought up, there response (please don't ask me what it was)led us all to believe that they were telling the truth. If you don't believe, then I guess you will not be buying that bat if it ever comes up for sale.<br /><br />A note about SCDA, they do not give out a letter of authenticity, they give out a letter of opinion, this was changed after the board thread.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Ijust don't understand the response that tell us how we were suppose to handle ourselves the questions to ask when everyone single one of us had a chance to go and handle it our own way." <br /><br />Another simple one: Because some people dismissed this as a worthless PR stunt when offered and continue to do so now. <br /><br />It should be expected that some people are going to dismiss what you write about it. In fact, it actually reads as confirmation that the "demonstration" was every bit the PR stunt suspected. Frankly, the more defensive and indignant you become, the more you sound as if you are determined to espouse SCDA's POV. <br /><br />Honestly, I'm really not clear what you think the value of your trip was?<br /><br />Obviously they gave you a one-sided presentation of the validity of the "streak" bat (and even so, one full of holes that have already been pointed out by other posters) that simply restates their earlier position. Whatever you write about for them on this site is simply another form of conveying or distilling a press release.<br /><br />So, basically until Adam starts questioning SCDA and Mastro during the Planich suit (where they will be asked detailed questions, under oath, from an adverse party) there's really nothing to talk about, and certainly no clear conclusion to reach. Nothing you or I do will be more valuable than what Adam accomplishes during the legal proceeding. That's when SCDA and Mastro won't be in control of the "demonstration." <br /><br />Otherwise, again, in terms of the issue of undisclosed conflict of interest, you are merely repeating SCDA's previously stated arguments on this site (although Jay is now saying he'd prefer to buy from a dealer who authenticates his own material over one who doesn't). You've added no new information or details to that issue (and I've already tried to persuade Troy as to the problems with their policies via e-mail). <br /><br />I mean, what else was there? <br /><br />Your trip, IMO, was a complete waste of time and always was always going to be a complete waste of time. <br /><br />At least you got to visit Mastro's offices though. That would have been worth it for me from a collector's perspective, like going to a behind the scenes tour of the HOF. I'd be willing to put up with whatever nonsense aimed at me if that were on the table (I'd liken it to getting a free ski trip if you sit in on a time share sales pitch for a couple hours). But alas, that was apparently a one-shot deal. <br /><br />Now all I have to look forward to at the National is Ryan Cuban Card Guy trying to beat me up (unless I hand over both my issues of OCM). <br /><br />PS: I'll trade you my Mastro tape measure for your Mastro magnifying glass. <br /><br /> <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>So Aaron what you are saying is that if you went you would not give yourself a chance to change your opinion and that you would only go would be to see the mastro facility. I am sorry to dissappoint you but the whole Mastro location was not on the schedule until we made plans to fly out there. <br /><br />I have heard many good thinks about the Robert Edwards Auction and glad to hear that someone is using this format.<br /><br />The 3 of us went out there with open minds and formed our own opinions and have reported it to the board. Take it as you may, but that is what went down.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p><FONT SIZE="4">For asking. The answer to your question regarding two authenicators can actually be answered by following your own thread. What auction co. doesn't self authenticate?<br />I honestly wish I'd asked to go. I felt being a member who's little planet has reason to orbit around this world once every couple years I might not have enough frequent flyer miles. As stated a well respect member was encouraged to discouraged it also. I am indifferent regarding that particular bats' history but am fancinated at the correlation between ownership and authenication ratings, the varied efforts and the information and authority bestowed on a single individual. Since you asked. I would have added answers to these questions <br />DiMaggio gives the bat to Henrich. <i>How do you know this Dave Who knows could he have stolen it</i> <i>What did daughter sayWho did she ask Document answers</i><br />Henrich leaves bat at mother's house <i>actually bats were all 5 together what were the other 5 Did his new wife allow bats in home</i> <i>why leave them there Heck he could forget about them by accident Document answers</i> <br />Henrich's daughter finds bat and 5 others<br />She contacts Bushing, who buys the bats. <i>Date this happened</i> <i>Has she told her father she is selling themIs she trying to prevent sharing monies with him or not want to bother or worried he'd say don't or If he is sharp why initially is he kept out of loop</i> <i>what day is she told he will be interviewed </i> <br />Bushing sells DiMaggio bat <i>insiginificant</i><br />bat gets returned. <br />more research done on bat. <i>like any pulltizer prize novel the more time invested the better classic the author shall pen</i><br />Tom Henrich is contacted to find out more about bat. <i>Search the tape for consistancies or variations what does daughter say when you ask to meet him do you tell her that it means a lot more money with his tape who cares if he was coached or cohersed did he know in advance about the money Remember John Lovet Action yeah that's the ticket yea professions are actors </i>.<br />bat is determined to be a Streak bat. <i>great I'm happy for you I do seem to have some questions. Same results, but WAY more fun and more impromptu than your mattinee and these albeit minor issues would provide great insight into industry</i><br />bat is sold at MAstro auction to H&B. <i>to not disclose owner authenicator is solely for one purpose </i><br />I seem to have arrived of sorts. After a few polite updates regarding my items my emails don't make it to Dave's house anymore<br /></FONT>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I wish I had a tape. When the meeting got moved to the Mastro offices, they nixed my use of the video camera for security reasons. I didn't think of it until heading back home that I should have left the lense cap on and used it as just an audio recorder. This isn't so bad either since SCDA has said that this gladly make this presentaiton to anyone, at any show they set up at. So you can see it yourself at the National or other shows they are at. Just call them ahead of time to let them know you want to see it. I'm starting to think they should just pack this material with them at every show.<br /><br />Let's get one thing straight about this bat and it's authenticity, Henrich's testimony IS NOT the lynchpin to this whole thing. Everything would stand on it's own without it. The bat could only come from one of 3 possible orders. Henrich got married buring the All-Star break and then left various items at his mother's house, including the bats, in August. This eliminated 2 orders from the possible candidates and cut it down to 6 bats that were shipped on July 1st. There is even more to this, but it's late and I want to get this posted. As we've said, we aren't comfortable with an A10 grade, but everything indicates that this is a Streak bat. I am comfortable with that.<br /><br />Our main reason for going ont his trip was see the proof that this was a Streak bat, and this was proven within reason. We also talked about conflict of interest, etc. You can say we spewing the SCDA party on this, but in almost every field of collectibles, authenticators also sell the items they authenticate. This goes for art, furniture, toys, movie memoriablia, you name it. This is not something that Bushing and the auction houses made up to try and hide things. This is how the auction industry has operated for decades. Do you honestly think that all those experts on the Antiques Roadshow just authenticate items and don't sell things they find and authenticate? <br /><br />Aaron, glad to see that you truly have clue as to what SCDA's new policy is, or most of the rest of this topic. Just lots of preconceived notions and prejudices. First off, if the authenticator is the seller, it is disclosed on the LOA. They have no control over what the auction house will put in the description, but you will be told about it if you are serious about bidding on the it, at least by MastroNet. There is no "30 day" limit to prove anything. It's a lifetime gaurentee. And if you can prove they are wrong, they will not only refund your money, they will also refund you the cost of the other expert. That's called standing behind your product/opinion on an item.<br /><br />And too the person that expected a professional, jouranlistic report, too bad. None of us are professional journalists and we didn't know we were required to go on this trip and report back to the board in this fashion. If this is what you expected, you should have gone yourself, or gotten someone to go taht could have done this for you.<br /><br />We went there to form an opinion, one way or the other. Not to come back and provide an unbiased report. I'm sorry if our conclusions didn't meet with your expectations. At this point, no one really has a right to whine or cry about what happened and the conclusions we came to too. You had the oppourtunity to take this trip. You also had the chance to provide with any questions you would like asked. Very few of you did, and Aaron, you didn't provide any. Why you are now making all this noise is beyond me. You had your chance and blew it. But hey, you get to sit home and say to yourself, yep, those guys were bought off, but if we had come back saying they were blowing smoke up up our arses, you still be sitting at home going yep, we were all right. It's great to sit at home, ignorant of the situation, believing only what you want to believe, and realize that you are right no matter what happens.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p><FONT SIZE="5">Troy R. Kinunen stated<br />"For the record, this offer was extended to some of the original parties involved that questioned the authentication of the Joe DiMaggio bat. My one request was that the entire session be video taped. I am going to request the same for this offer also so all facts will be accureately represented and chronicled."<br /></FONT><br />

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Posted By: <b>From The Fearless NAIVE lips of</b><p><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1107478964&lp=1108414835" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1107478964&lp=1108414835</a><br /><br />jay behrens <br />February 6 2005, 7:36 PM <br /><br />"Joe, they've agreed to let me video tape the whole thing. And you can bet that if they try to spin our visit into something that it wasn't, I'll be the first one to speak up about it.<br /><br />It may be a PR spin tour, but none the less, I gotten a bunch of good questions to ask them and the responses will be interesting and telling."<br />*<br />*<br />The above was a response to:<br />Joe P.<br />February 6 2005, 6:19 PM <br />The Good Folks Over At The Stabilized Place Would Like To Know If <br /><br />You would be kind enough to send them your Game Plan & Play Book? <br /><br />Come to my parlor!<br />Said the spider to the fly.<br /><br />Jay, love ya man, but let's be realistic.<br />If you don't have the questions, the ferver and the research background of a Robert Plancich:<br />Why are you going?<br /><br />Some have already said it, and I agree with them.<br />This is just an amateur PR feeble attempt to get a handful together so that they can use their prepared and rehearsed stonewall lines on you -- on their turf.<br /><br />They are not going to admit conflict of interest to anyone on their turf. .... status quo.<br /><br />It would make great SCD print.<br /><br />"Group faced Us, and they couldn't touch Us with a glove."<br /><br />Wrong Turf.<br /><br />Jay amigo, you're not in that league, and it's not a sight seeing tour. <br /><br />They have rehearsed their lines.<br /><br />So Much for Their Agreement to Let You Video Tape the Whole Thing.<br />Did yo really BELIEVE that they would???<br /><br />To make it worse, they used the least expensive vasoline in the market.<br />I hope that The Magnificent Trio smiled prettily for the SCD cameras.<br />The Magnificent Trio, not to be confused with "The Three Stooges".<br />They were creatively innovative.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay, sorry but I'm 100% right about the return policy. Check page 5 of the current Mastro Classic Collector auction catalog. It's listed under SCD's profile in the "A Word About Authenticity" section. <br /><br />You have 30 days from receipt to have the item examined by a "recognized third-party" who presents "verifiable informationnthat the item was not represented properly or accurately." <br /><br />Again, I appreciate your good intentions, but the fact is you simply served a PR purpose for SCDA and Mastro. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"It would make great SCD print." <br /><br />This is another interesting point. <br /><br />Jay, Dan or Lee: Did any of you catch the name of the outfit the reporter who accompanied you writes for? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />What research and backgraound do YOU know that Robert Plantich has or has taken? Do you know him personally done research with him. Mr. Plantich was offered this same deal to show the eveidence when he first brought up the question to them and he turned it down. My question is why wouldn't you want the eveidence of an authenticator if you as a non-authenticator are questioning it's authenticity.<br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />You seem to be doing the exacthings you accuse these guys of, I asked specific questions about the bats you are sending and you send a general answer why is this? Why don't you post and scan your bats, post why you believe the bats are what you say they are and the board members tell you if they think they are legit?<br /><br />Not an attack Steve but whatis your background? It don't think I have ever encountered you on the board.<br /><br />Lee<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Guys, thanks for the reporting on the trip. I know you were all skeptical going in so I can appreciate your feelings now. That being said, an authenticator should not be selling his own crap without disclosing his relationship to the item. End of story--no matter how many times Troy sends me personal invective via email.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"So Aaron what you are saying is that if you went you would not give yourself a chance to change your opinion and that you would only go would be to see the mastro facility. I am sorry to dissappoint you but the whole Mastro location was not on the schedule until we made plans to fly out there." <br /><br />Well, I would substitute "unwilling to allow myself to be manipulated" for "not give yourself a chance to change my mind", but otherwise yeah, that's about it. <br /><br />Now, had I known a tour of Mastro's facility been on the table, I might have been willing to shirk my professional responsibilities and burn a vacation day and allow myself to serve another person's agenda, but as it was originally presented, the answer was no, I was not willing to serve another person's agenda under those circumstances. (For the tour, I would have chalked it up to "If you are going to use me, I'm going to use you.") <br /><br />As far as my opinion, I haven't really offered one on the validity of the streak bat. The only thing about the sale(s) that I've spoken out about are the fact that Bushing owned the bat, and if he disclosed this to the eventual purchaser. Otherwise, I am content (as I have said repeatedly) to let the matter be resolved in a neutral forum by those who are much more educated on the subject than me during the Planich litigation. <br /><br />The only other thing that was really an issue was undisclosed conflict of interest, to which no new information was added during your trip. And, yes, I can say with certainty that I would not have changed my mind and approved of it, even if given a free lunch and tour of MastroNet (although I would have been very cordial during the visit!).<br /><br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I agree with that fact that they should not sell an item they sold without disclosure of the fact. It seems alot of that is up to the auction houses from my understanding. We did not agree on everything especially that the bat should receive an A10, in my eyes at least an A9.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Naive and Sleepless in Iola</b><p>You make me feel like an expert, and I know absolutely nothing about bats, gloves and the likes.<br /><br />The Trio's decision to go, bewildered many of the<br />posters.<br />Your qualifications were nil to the task required.<br /><br />You were the PERFECT pawns for the SCDA group.<br />They could not have hoped for a better sellection.<br /><br />The outcome to this charade was as predictable as Night following Day.<br /><br />Predictable and foreseen by most, except the Gentlemen from Iola.<br /><br />Tell us Lee, who is this Burdick fellow, and what kind of reseach did he do?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Joe, thank you for coming down from your high and mighty place. I knew you were sitting next to Aaron, in your comfortable win-win loungers. You say I am unqualified? Do you know what my experience is with game used bats? I'll let you answer this and prove your ignorance on this one.<br /><br />Aaron, you crack me up. You talk about how easily were manipulated and claiming that nothing could manipulate you. Look at yourself, you are the one that is falling all over himself just trying to get into the MAstro offices. Of the 4 of us, who do you think would be the most easily manipulated? It would be you becuase you would be the one bedazzled and stunned like a deer looking into the headlights. <br /><br />Back to the conflict of interest, H&B did not find out that Bushing owned and authenticated the bat after the fact. All the bidders were made aware of this. Mastro even offered to contact the bidders so they could confirn this with us. And I can already see your answer, the bidders are jsut more lackeys doing the what Mastro wants them to. And did you miss the part where I mentioned this an industry wide practice, not relagated soley to sports memorabilia? Does this make it right and mean we have to agree with it? No, but the people that bid in these auctions on a regualr basis are well aware of it.<br /><br />Enough of the boys in the win-win barcaloungers. Time to hit the ignore button on them until they say something useful.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Sweet now you say that Robert Plantich and Burdick are in the same league give me a break.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>For what it's worth, I don't think it appropriate to malign those that went on the trip as rubes that were dazzled by the bright lights of Chicago. These guys are obviously bright, learned collectors who went there with a chip on their collective shoulder. It would be simplisitic and obnoxious to suggest otherwise. As for H & B not knowing that Bushing owned the item, that may also be. I'm not sure I believe it but of course I could be wrong. One thing I know that I am correct about is that Bushing knew that he owned the item that he was authenticating. And for me, that makes Bushing an untrustworthy snake oil salesman who lied by omission.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Aaron, you crack me up. You talk about how easily were manipulated and claiming that nothing could manipulate you. Look at yourself, you are the one that is falling all over himself just trying to get into the MAstro offices. Of the 4 of us, who do you think would be the most easily manipulated? It would be you becuase you would be the one bedazzled and stunned like a deer looking into the headlights." <br /><br />Again, another easy one. I'm not trying to even give the impression of SCDA's credibility if I went on a tour of the Mastro facility. I wouldn't come back here and post about how they proved the validity of the Planich bat and how conflict of interest isn't such a bad thing. <br /><br />I'd just go on my tour, have fun and that's it. That's why I even volunteered to sign an NDA: Because I have no intention of spewing SCDA or Mastro's propaganda (on this site or anywhere). I would just using this whole situation as a pretense to get a free tour of a personal collecting heaven. <br /><br />You guys on the other hand, are acting like trained seals, doing their PR for them, just as they hoped. <br /><br />That's why I refuse to sit through their demonstration unless it's at Mastro headquarters. Otherwise, why bother to sit through their spiel? To learn something "unbiased" so I can come back here and do their work for them? Come on, ego aside, can't you see how badly you've been used? <br /><br />Troy told me yesterday that Mastro and SCDA would only be at the National and a visit to MastroNet during the National was impossible, so no "demonstration" for me. Simple.

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>don't malign those that went. You can discount or completely disagree with their take, but allow them to have one. If you believe you pre-ordained what would happen and/or had no intention of giving the report any credibility, regardless who issued it, then make your point to that effect once and move on.

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Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Aaron, since it seems that you have no interest in seeing the evidence to dispute what these guys are saying, why bash them? They told us they were going, we were asked to give them any questions that we had (some asked)and they came back and reported what they saw and felt. <br /><br />Your take that you won't go and listen to the evidence because you can't get a tour of the Mastro facility is laughable. You are going to the National and won't take 15 minutes to hear there spiel there. I don't get it. I guess my feeble brain is about to explode.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>This is not meant as a swipe against anyone one particular, but many people in the hobby and elsewhere like to pick a side first and worry about the facts second ... Or not worry about the facts at all.<br /><br />The other thing I once learned from a thread on a subject I am knowledgeable about (authenticity of photographs), having knowledge about the subject isn't a requirement for some to argue on a chat board.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Your take that you won't go and listen to the evidence because you can't get a tour of the Mastro facility is laughable. You are going to the National and won't take 15 minutes to hear there spiel there. I don't get it. I guess my feeble brain is about to explode." <br /><br />As I've explained earlier in this thread, I think the issue of the streak bat is best left up to the Planich litigation to decide on. I don't know if Bushing's authentication was accurate or not, and I don't believe that hearing a biased, one-sided orchestrated presentation will help me make up my mind. <br /><br />The Planich litigation, OTOH, will offer depositions and testimony under oath, with questions coming from informed adverse counsel. Same goes for the evidentiary exhibits which will be forcefully obtained (and not subject to SCDA's picking and choosing) and critically examined. <br /><br />Once those facts are brought to light, then I think we (including Jay, Lee and dan) can all make more informed decisions about the streak bat (and Bushing's overall authentication techniques). <br /><br />The only other matter is the undisclosed conflict of interest issue. I have exchanged posts here with Troy, as well as private e-mail exchanges on the topic. He has his opinion on things, and I have mine. I have offered suggestions as to what I think will satisfy ethical obligations as well as their own financial concerns. Whether they choose to incorporate those suggestions are up to them. <br /><br />Otherwise, there's no more point in him trying to persuade me of anything or vice versa. Our minds are made up. <br /><br />So, what's left to say to them or them to me?

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>PS: Of course, I'll stop "bashing" Lee, Dan and Jay. You all seem like good guys with good intentions. Whatever the outcome, we are all (I think) appreciative of you taking your personal time and trying to enhance our knowledge of the subject. Seriously.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Look, I emailed Lee before he went...and believe me the guy was foaming at the mouth as I was about this issue. These guys are passionate about the hobby/obsession we have and are also possessive and protective over it. So, I'm willing to certainly give their opinions some serious weight (unless we can prove they actually visited the Mastro office in Stepford, Ct.).

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Aaron, I didn't think you were ill-intentioned and I tend to agree with your take on the bat--and 100 percent agree that Bushing is a crock re the conflict issue. I just think that we are all maddogs when it comes to this stuff and we should use our collective energies as, well, collective energy.

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Posted By: <b>It Must Be the Iola Water</b><p>Jay:<br /><br />"Joe, thank you for coming down from your high and mighty place. I knew you were sitting next to Aaron, in your comfortable win-win loungers. You say I am unqualified? Do you know what my experience is with game used bats? I'll let you answer this and prove your ignorance on this one."<br />*<br />*<br />No Jay, I really don't know your used bats qualifications.<br />Here's your chance to tell the whole board about them.<br />What are they?<br />-----------------------------------<br /><br />Lee Behrin;<br /><br />"Sweet now you say that Robert Plantich and Burdick are in the same league give me a break."<br />*<br />*<br />Also predictably, it went over Lee's head.<br />Lee, aren't you the avid tobacco collector that just a few months ago found out about the Burdick collection, and Jefferson Burdick?<br /><br />It's gotta be the water. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't really feel I have to explain why I went, but I will in the interest of the board (or the bored). When Robert Plancich first came to the board and reported on this bat it sparked an interest in me and I decided to undertake some research on the matter. I have a fairly extensive baseball library and came up with some facts on the streak and DiMaggio that I sent to Robert. He was very appreciative and I have had discourse with him off of this board regarding this bat. Some of the research I did was new to Robert and some of my questions at the meeting were based on this research. I came away from the meeting not 100% convinced of this being a streak bat, but I think that the odds are very favorable that this IS bat number 4. I discussed this with Robert this morning on the phone and this story is not over. I look forward to this going through litigation as I think Aaron is correct that the only appropriate forum for this to be settled is in a court of law. So you could say that I went for strictly selfish reasons to satisfy my curiosity on the matter, but I also hope to help this hobby down a more straight forward path.<br /><br />Dan

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, you berate us for being shills for SCDA and Mastro, yet you are no better. You bought Robert Plnaich's party line, hook line and sinker and no one had a clue who he really is or what is cedentials are. Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that follows him? <br /><br />Planich was a nobody before he posted here, and even I bought into everything he said. Now that I have seen both sides of the story, I have opinion of the bat based firmly on facts and data. I cannot tell you what to believe, you ahve make that decision yourself, but it boils down to believing someone who has no history and no background or taking the word of 3 collectors, one of which (myself) has experience with buying and selling game used bats.<br /><br />You are as much a shill for Planich as you think we are shills for SCDA and Mastro.<br /><br />You also state you want to wait for the unbaised court trial to settle whether the bat is legit or not. What color is the sky where you are from? There is no such thing as an unbiased trial. Each side is presenting biased information. Do you think OJ would have gotten off if his case was truly unbiased?<br /><br />Joe, here's my bat credentials: I learned everything I know a lot I've forgotten from Mike Montbriand. On the way to the MAstro offices, Troy asked if any of had experience with game used bats. I mentioned this to him, and also to Bushing when we got to the offices. If there intent was to bamboozle us, which I doubt, they knew up front that I learned about bats from the best and they even acknowledged that. So I was not going to be easily convinced about anything with the knowledge I have.<br /><br />At this point, I stepping away from the thread unless there are some relavent questioned asked by people other than Joe or Aaron.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>There are two aspects of this story that continue to cause me some doubts, although there may well be good answers. First, I really cannot understand why Mr. Bushing would have "flipped" the bat so quickly the first time if he was aware based on the relevant bat records that there was a reasonable chance the bat was a "streak" bat. Why only do the research when the bat fortuitously was returned. Second, I really cannot understand why Mr. Henrich, knowing all those years that he had left a "streak" bat at his mother's or whoever's house, would not have made an effort to retrieve it and capitalize on the memorabilia craze which surely he was aware of.

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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Aaron, you berate us for being shills for SCDA and Mastro, yet you are no better. You bought Robert Plnaich's party line, hook line and sinker and no one had a clue who he really is or what is cedentials are. Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that follows him?" <br /><br />Jay, no offense, but what are you talking about? <br /><br />I already posted (several times) that I don't know if Planich's claims about the streak bat are right or wrong and that I think it's best for the matter to be handled in court where neither party has an advantage and a neutral party presides. <br /><br />Actually, I think Planich sounds like an obsessive crank, and if I were Bushing I probably would have ignored his e-mails, too. But that doesn't make him right or wrong.<br /><br />I think your trip was a waste of time because it was a biased one-sided unchallenged presentation--a lame PR stunt. It goes without saying, I would have dismissed a similar "demontsration" from Planich. <br /><br />But Plnich did bring to light the subject of undisclosed conflict of interest which has turned out to be correct. For that I'm grateful, and hopefully it will lead to some change in the hobby. <br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Clarity In Iola</b><p>"I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks."<br />*<br />*<br />The clarity is possibly due to the fact that they're not his thoughts or words.<br /><br />I say more to the signature, and less to his incoherent thought patterns.<br />-------------<br />sabrjay Bahren:<br /><br />"Joe, here's my bat credentials: I learned everything I know a lot I've forgotten from Mike Montbriand. On the way to the MAstro offices, Troy asked if any of had experience with game used bats. I mentioned this to him, and also to Bushing when we got to the offices. If there intent was to bamboozle us, which I doubt, they knew up front that I learned about bats from the best and they even acknowledged that. So I was not going to be easily convinced about anything with the knowledge I have."<br />*<br />*<br />Wow, I'm impressed.<br />I've learned everything that I need to know about the business world by watching Donald Trumps "Apprentice."<br /><br />Innocent brilliant and worldly child.<br />If I wanted to win a Jay type over, I would do exactly what they did.<br />Troy, Bushing, and the SCDA crew played their cards well.<br /><br />Their mission:<br />1. Make the boys feel welcomed at the O.K.Corral.<br />2. Pump up their ego's, and tell them how intellegent they are.<br />3. Win them over, win them over.<br />4. Let them talk about anything, we already have their playbook and game plan from their previous thread.<br />5. Stay away from the Conflict of Interest thing.<br />6. Not to worry, we'll take care of Jay's video recording illusions.<br />7. Treat our well meaning pawns with respect - buy them a soda.<br />8. Always remember, they come here to bury Caesar, and not to praise him.<br />9. Our mission here at the O.K. Corral, is to turn that around.<br />10. Oh yes, one more thing, watch out for this Dan Bretta guy -- he has a legitimate OPEN mind, as for the other two -- just flatter them.<br /><br />11. Of utmost importance -- Don't forget to <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> for the SCD pictures.<br /><br />True, the brothers Bayrin sound alike, but I must consider that it might not be the Iola water. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>mcavoy</b><p>What were the other bats Bushing bought from the Heinrich family? What are the dates estimated for those bats?

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Dave made no mention to what the other bats were. But I believe he said there were 6 very dirty bats in the lot.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>they would have all been pre-Spetember 1941 since Henrich moved out in August.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>These are the other bats according to Troy fomr SCDA:<br /><br />Other bats were Tommy Henrich block letter rookie bat, 2 Tommy Henrich signature model 35 1/2 stamped on knob, Babe Herman store model bat, Red Ruffing, and one other major league bat that Dave couldn't remember, common major league stars. All pre 1941. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>This is a comment I just posted over on the game used forum board, but I'd like to throw it out to you folks as well.<br /><br />Jay-<br />Thanks for your report.<br /><br />I am confused by something you mentioned. You wrote, <br /><br />"As to Ichiro bat, Bushing said this came from agent of Ichiro and apprently were mislead about the bat."<br /><br />I think I need more explanation on this. I'm sorry, but it's not being too harsh by saying if an authenticator is to sign a letter on something they have to do their own homework before issuing that letter. Even if somehing comes directly from a player, it is the authenticator's obligation to examine it and compare to archival photos. We have seen instances where players ahve sold the same event used item TWICE. So a good source may not always be a good source. If it's what it sounds like, SCDA too Ichiro's agent's word on the bat and issued a letter? Please clarify<br /><br />Thanks<br />Eric<br />moderator Game Used Forum<br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/33448" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Index/33448</a>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It sure seemed a sore subject with them when I brought it up. I don't think they wanted to talk about it, but it sounds like they got hoodwinked by Ichiro's agent. I then asked them how they could give an A-10 to a bat on word alone and they said they didn't even have the A1-A10 scale when that happened. I believe it was reported in this forum that they had given that bat an A-10.<br /><br />Other than the DiMaggio bat, we discussed briefly the Cobb Decal bat, Seaver Glove, and The Ichiro bat. The only one they copped to making a mistake on was the Ichiro bat. I did ask questions about the Ichiro and Cobb bat, but I didn't feel like I knew enough about those items to delve into anything deeper than we did, and I was mainly interested in the DiMaggio bat.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In the authentication of rare photographs, provenance is considered evidence (ala, it came from a magazine's editor, from the estate, etc), often imporant evidence. But it is only one piece in the authentication puzzle, along with physical examination of the photo, etc. It is also known that not all 'provenance' is reliable or sometimes the reliable provenance is used to make hasty conclusions (Someone being given a Mike Schimdt photo from Mike Schmidt and incorrectly assuming the photo is an original. Schmidt can own reprints of himself just like anyone else). For every forged Babe Ruth baseball there is a made up story where it came from. In some cases, physical examination of a photo will prove the provenance bogus. In many cases, physical examination of the photo and the reliable provenance will support each other-- which is the best.<br /><br />There was an interesting case where on eBay where the style of photo itself strongly supported the seller's big claim of famous ownership. There was an 1880s Cincinnati Reds team photo that the seller claimed actually personally belonged to star pitcher Tony Mullane. The seller was no expert on photos, and may have admited as such in the sale description. The photo was an unusually large Joseph Hall cabinet-style photo of the Reds. The photo was like 3 times bigger than the regular cabinets. Back in the old days, these large size photos were difficult and expensive to make. They were ordinarilly made only for VIPs, like the team manager or star players or to be displayed in the team clubhouse or town hall. In short, the mere size of the photo was good evidence that the photo did indeed belong to Mullane.<br /><br />A common worry of collectors of expensive modern photos by famous photographers like Phillipe Halsman or Annie Lebovitz is whether or not the photo is legitimate. Photos not made by or with the authorization of the copyrights owner (photographer, magazine that hired the photograher, etc)are worthless and are, infact, often illegal to sell. Besides, a collector doesn't want to spend $1,000 on David Baily photo that someone eBay seller made 10,000 copies of in his Milwaukee basement. Provenance will help support the legitimacy or 'officialness' of the photo. If a collector knows the photo came from a magazine editor or the photographer's estate or the auction of a newspaper's archives, he can be confident that the photo is legitimate. Stamping on a photo also helps prove the legitmacy. The stamp or paper tag of the photographer, news service or Sports Illustrated shows that the photo was made with propor authorization, and the collector should feel comfortable buying.<br /><br />As far as the Ichiro bat goes, I think the folks who examined the bat and MastroNet made a dumb error, but we all make dumb errors and it's no longer a big deal for me.&lt;br /&gt;

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The DiMaggio bat has a lot going for it.<br />1. It can be only 1 of 22 bats made by H&B.<br />2. It shows game use and was repaired. I'm not sure it would have been worth Henrich's time to get repaired if it were not a "special" bat.<br />3. You have the word of Henrich that it was a streak bat.<br />4. Finding the bat in Henrich's mother's house makes the probability that he put it there before he got married believable. It also makes it more believable that this bat came from the 7-1-41 bat order since Henrich got married in July of 41 and moved out of his mother's house at that time.<br /><br />In order for you to say it is not a streak bat you have to be prepared to call Tommy Henrich a liar. I am not prepared to do that.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>The Tommy H connection is interesting. If I recall there was a lot of interest in having the "chosen people" watch the entire taped interview to see if TH was being "lead" or "coached" into a response. Just because the entire tape wasn't presented doesn't mean that there was any impropriety it just means that it wasn't shown. If the tape is shown sometime in the future and it doesn't show TH being "lead" or "coached" then the tape would be called suspicious because it would lead some people to believe that the tape had been edited. <br /><br />This incident will never be free of suspicion unless the bat has some very distinguishing characteristics that show up on a photograph of Joe D holding this exact bat during the streak. Even then the picture would only show Joe D holding the bat and not using it during the streak.... <br /><br />I'm sure everyone has figured this out already... an A10 rating is out the door.

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Posted By: <b>Krystal Klear</b><p>mcavoy<br />(Login m-mac) other bats February 25 2005, 11:26 AM <br /><br />What were the other bats Bushing bought from the Heinrich family? What are the dates estimated for those bats?<br />**********************<br /><br />Lee Behrens <br />(Login bowlingshoeguy) Re: The SCDA trip February 25 2005, 12:14 PM <br /><br />Dave made no mention to what the other bats were. But I believe he said there were 6 very dirty bats in the lot.<br /><br />Lee<br />**********************<br /><br />jay behrens <br />(Login sabrjay) Re: The SCDA trip February 25 2005, 12:17 PM <br /><br />they would have all been pre-Spetember 1941 since Henrich moved out in August.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.<br />**********************<br /><br />jay behrens <br />(Login sabrjay) Re: The SCDA trip February 25 2005, 4:11 PM<br /><br />These are the other bats according to Troy fomr SCDA:<br /><br />Other bats were Tommy Henrich block letter rookie bat, 2 Tommy Henrich signature model 35 1/2 stamped on knob, Babe Herman store model bat, Red Ruffing, and one other major league bat that Dave couldn't remember, common major league stars. All pre 1941. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.<br />*********************<br />*<br />*<br />*<br />Possible clarification for the above could be:<br /><br />1. Lee was in another room? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />2. Troy is reading this, and he's helping out with some, but not all of the blanks. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings0</b><p>Never mind