Is this how Verkman always grades? [Archive]

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02-01-2005, 07:34 PM

Posted By: EricI have never bid with Clean Sweep before, but I was considering it. Is this how he always grades??!!! <a href="http://www.csauctions.com/item.cgi?show_item=0000220027" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.csauctions.com/item.cgi?show_item=0000220027</a>

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02-01-2005, 07:51 PM

Posted By: JimBWhat would count as poor condition if that is fair/good? I have had problems with his grading in the past and won't buy from him anymore. JimB

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02-01-2005, 07:58 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleyHis grading is off (along with many long-time dealers -Fritsch), but he usually provides large scans of the items, and will usually provide scans of the backs if asked. So, I will buy from him based on what I see, I just disregard his grades. -Rhett

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02-01-2005, 08:20 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesis there a Verkman grading post every month ?....just curious

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02-01-2005, 08:32 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellI agree with Dan on this - the subject has been exhausted. Searching on this will return a ton of opinions, including some from Steve himself. I know we like to rehash some topics, but I don't think there's more to be gained on this one. Welcome, Eric, by the way. Bill

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02-01-2005, 08:36 PM

Posted By: Juliesince the early days of his last auction (I rmemeber seeing the old Judge Wright and Beckley), I have been unable to see ANY of his nice, large scans! All the print is there, but the pictures never up (or is it down)load. It doesn't matter whether I cut and paste, type the auction name into my browser, or click on a link--like the one provioded in the first post of this thread. I have no trouble seeing other scans elsewhere. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> In the offered link, I could see the description of what could only be called a "poor" card being offered as fair-good.

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02-01-2005, 08:39 PM

Posted By: EricMy appoligies for the so called,"rehash". I was simply looking for advice on whether or not this one item might be a pattern for him. Someone might start a rehash thread so us poor new guys know what and what not to talk about. p.s. seems to me Bushing is the lead rehash topic of late

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02-01-2005, 09:55 PM

Posted By: Dan Kotelesnot directed at you at all. A similar post just ended recently . You will find alot of members to steer you in the right direction and an extra eye or some simple advice is always smart, you can find that here . Unless you are talking about a person who intentionally tries to cheat you like an Alan Hager, it is not always nice to see someone thrown to the wolves time and time again. Everybody including grading services make mistakes , this happens when over- seeing alot of cards. I have not had a problem in buying from him in well over a decade, some may have , he Sometimes it may be just the way someone rubs us or talks to us a particular day or we didn't get our way . A new year has just started and I would prefer to just be nice to people and enjoy what this hobby is about....FUN !!!!! You just have to find what is acceptable to you and make your best decision. In the vintage world...it is a never ending education. I have learned alot here, un- knowingly without trying...unexpectedly an welcomed. Good luck Collecting ! Good Evening -Dan

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02-01-2005, 10:37 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensI think we all need to remember that there are newbies coming on to the board all the time. One think that us grizzled vets need to remember is that they have little or no experience on the sites and not scare them away from posting. I think we all know that I have problems with Mr. Verkman that have not been resolved but the original post asked a question about whether that was typical grading for Mr. Verkman. His grading has been questioned on the board and he was looking for some clarification. To all newbies if you have a question aboout anything that you think we might be of help, use the search mode first if you don't find anything to help you there then post. We must all remember not to scare anyone that is willing to contribute to this great forum. Lee

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02-01-2005, 10:45 PM

Posted By: Bill CornellVery true, Lee. Does Jay ever read your posts? Steve V. has been raked over the coals, come here to defend himself, raked over the coals again, then returned to defend himself again. Anyone who hadn't read the previous threads wouldn't be aware of that, but I think there needs to be a limit to it, regardless. Yes, that E90-3 Brown is badly overgraded by just about any standard. Bill

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02-02-2005, 12:48 AM

Posted By: jay behrensDid I miss another post by my brother? And are you infering that he actually has something worthwhile to say? Jay Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --- WOW, What a ride!

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02-02-2005, 03:42 AM

Posted By: Kevin Cummings.....like that card belongs in the Tipton thread and it's been severly undergraded! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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02-02-2005, 05:47 AM

Posted By: AnonymousRhett is right on target with his comment. Make sure you get a front & back scan & decide for yourself. You have to disregard his grading without a clear front & back look. As long as you do that, you should be ok. He does have a large selection of cards.

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02-02-2005, 05:50 AM

Posted By: PaulPosted above message as Anonymous by accident. Thanks. Paul Griggs

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02-02-2005, 05:57 AM

Posted By: leonHe also gives a no questions asked return policy. He has defended himself well here and so be it. If you look at the card, irrespective of the grade "assigned", and still like it...then buy it. If not, don't. Is it any different than anywhere or anyone else? I will say, like I said before, Steve's and my grading are a little different.....but that's life....later

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02-02-2005, 08:16 AM

Posted By: tbobThese are the two most subjective grades in the hobby. I have seen F-G cards which most collectors would grade as around VG and F-G cards which you wouldn't line an animal's cage with. Ditto VG. I have purchased VG cards from dealers which are almost Excellent and VG cards which I would consider Fair at best. My 2 cents is that if scans are not provided, try emailing and asking questions about creases/wrinkles/paper loss etc. although you always have to be careful about trimming issues. I have learned the hard, hard way to always ask about paper loss if a back scan is not provided, even on "exmt" cards.

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02-02-2005, 08:25 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensLeon, I seriously beg to differ that Verkamn defended himself well on the board. I have asked him a very simple question about my situation on and off the baord and he has not responded. This to me is not defending yourself very well. Mr. Verkman seems to think I am trashing him and maybe I am but until he makes a effort to answer my question, I will continue to bring up my situation when asked. Lee

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02-02-2005, 08:45 AM

Posted By: HWI agree that this card is overgraded, but in all fairness, he does offer good scans and a return priviledge. Buy the card based on the scans, and if something was hidden, return it. I have purchased several cards from well known ebayers who only showed a scan of the card along with a description, without the mention of a specific grade. I had no problem with this as I grade for myself and am comfortable with the value that I received based on the scans.

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02-02-2005, 09:54 AM

Posted By: Lee BehrensHW makes a good point which about not applying a grade to a card just a good scan and description. I have never had a raw card questioned or returned. Grading is always subjective and why leave open the possiblity of trouble. Good scan, front and back, good description, no problems.

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02-02-2005, 10:33 AM

Posted By: Judge DredI've made purchases from SV before he provided nice scans. Yes, he is a bit liberal in his grading. I haven't purchased anything from him in a long time because of the first few times I purchased items from him (low standards). Now that large scans are available it should be fairly straight forward to see what you'll receive. Regardless of the liberal grading it's up to you to decide whether or not you might still want the item (based on the large scans). And don't forget (as mentioned several times in this thread) to check the back of the cards. By the way, SV is not the only person that may neglect taking back damage into consideration when grading a card. You've seen the ads - "scrap book remnants are on the back of the card along with a large glue stain but it's ExMt otherwise."

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02-02-2005, 11:09 AM

Posted By: HWJudge: I see your point, but I would rather have someone use the description "scrap book remnants are on the back of the card along with a large glue stain but it's ExMt otherwise" than only its technical grade. I do not think that the person is calling the card EX-MT. He is just trying to say that the card appears nice, but has some problems. On some cards, back damage bothers me a lot, on others, such as Old Judges and W600s, its does not. For instance, I would much rather have an EX/MT Old Judge with a nice and photo, but with back damage than and EX card with a light photo and surface wear, let along a Good card, which is probably the correct technical grade of a card that appears EX-MT but has back damage. I prefer to have as much info as possible and base my decision based on my priorities rather than have a seller or a grading company try and assign a single grade to a card, especially when it has abnormal wear to it.

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02-02-2005, 11:39 AM

Posted By: Julieand the answer is YES. Trust only the scans, ask for a back scan if not offered--and that goes for his catalogue pictures too! Tired of being polite when someone wants an honest answer!

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02-02-2005, 11:51 AM

Posted By: Judge DredHW, I'm pretty much the same way about blank back cards. The backs don't matter so much. On a card with printing on the back it makes a big difference to me. A good scan says a lot for itself. If I still have questions then I'll ask the seller for more information. Something I've been burned on is a card with light creases that don't show up in scans. I am definitely one that appreciates an accurate and thorough item descripton. Yes Julie, in my opinion (and it seems most others) you are correct, the answer to the question for this thread is YES

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02-02-2005, 03:05 PM

Posted By: SteveThe question posed is is this is how I ALWAYS GRADE cards. 1. This was a mistake in the title that has since been corrected. This was very clearly pictured and accurately described. This seems to be someone looking for something to waste unnecessary verbiage about. The point is full disclosure when buying and selling this stuff. This was mentioned by a few people on this thread. 2. What is this anger about? Where does the venom on the part of some of these posters come from? This is supposed to be a fun hobby. For Mr Behrens (who has WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON HIS HANDS), his question is apparently is he entitled to a 15% refund as well as a full refund on a card? My answer is no but I would amplify this point by pointing out that he never asked for this anyhow - except for a year and a half later on a public forum. Some people are just who they are, I suppose. 3. Back to the question. IT SEEMS MONUMENTALLY UNFAIR TO PICK 1 LOT OUT OF 1000 TO BASE GRADING. If you guys really want to at least make a reasonable intellectual argument, why not look at scans of at least 10 or 20 cards at random and make comments. I will even provide back scans of these cards if we want to push this point. Why not go to www.csauctions.com, click on top ten lists and then make at least an effort at having a fair and balanced opinion. Steve Verkman

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02-02-2005, 03:53 PM

Posted By: Judge DredSteve, I figure you would get tired of responding to these threads. I did as you stated and viewed several cards in your latest auction. It was hard to do this at random because the large thumbnails were available to view. I can only conclude that we are all in agreement that grading is subjective. Perhaps the standards of several posters happens to be a bit different than yours. I can't imagine that perception could play much of a role because rounded corners, creases and basic "damage" is, what it is. I suppose that the degree of the imperfection and how it is applied to a grade is the subjective part of assigning a grade. I still think that you tend to assign generous grades. That doesn't make you a monster or a plague to the hobby. In fact, it's people like yourself that provide a means for hobbyists to complete sets or obtain cards. If you provide large scans, answer questions and provide a fair refund policy then you are offering a full and fair service. By the way, I've spoken to you at a few different shows and you seem to be a nice person and approachable (at least when it's not busy). I wouldn't try to shoot the breeze with someone trying to conduct business at a busy time. Here's what would be interesting: Offer anyone $10 (typical grading fee) if they have the card graded and the encapsulation label (SGC or PSA) isn't within 1 full grade of your described grade. I realize you couldn't do this all the time but it would be an interesting challenge for your next auction (ending in 21 days from 02FEB05). You keep the scans of the cards available on your website for 2 months after the auction and let people post the results of the challenge. If it's found that you are in line with PSA or SGC then you can have bragging rights over the next thread that is created in your honor (like this thread). If you have grossly over graded your cards then you can openly admit that grading is subjective and you just happen to be a bit more liberal than SGC or PSA. You would also get to shovel out a lot of $10 bills. Regards, Fred

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02-02-2005, 04:31 PM

Posted By: Rhett YeakleySteve, I don't think that the posters on this thread are being overly negative towards you at all. In fact, I think many people were praising the fact that you provide good scans and have a good return policy. While grading is always a subjective thing, nobody is going to be happy with anothers grading all the time. I (and many others on this board) tend to look at pictures of items we are interested in rather than paying too much attention to a technical grade. What it boils down to for me is if I see something that I like I will buy it for a price I think is fair based on what "grade" I would give it. The only time condition comes into play (for me) is when purchasing a large group of cards. If that is the case one should ask for a "representative" card from the different conditions of cards in the lot, and then judge for themselves. I have never gotten too hooked up on technical grades, but that is my 2-cents. -Rhett

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02-02-2005, 05:13 PM

Posted By: warshawlawAfter reviewing your posts (I applaud you for coming in to respond rather than bitching offline as many other dealers do), I decided to bid in the most recent auction and won a lot. I'll let everyone know if the lot measures up to expectations. I'd urge anyone else who won a lot in the recent auction to do the same. If things are OK, let's let Steve know, not just when they are bad.

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02-02-2005, 05:58 PM

Posted By: Lee BehrensYou either are ignoring the questions I have imposed or reading what you want to read. I NEVER asked for a 15% refund, just a way I thought would have been a fair solution at the time. I chose to leave it up to you on how to handle the situation. Because of how you handled the situation I have chose not to bid in your auctions. It is another thing to treat a frequent customer matter of factly and tell them "I will take care of your next time", but it is another to tell a first time customer. There is NO reason in my book to have another transaction with anyone that I have had such a dealing with. This is the question Mr. Verkman: What exactly does I will take care of you next time mean when you won't take care of the situation at the time of the problem? It is a simple question I have asked on many occassions from you but you never respond when i ask. THis is not intended to target Clean Sweep specifically ( auctions in general). As for Adam, How do you thing a transaction will end up when you post on the baord that you are going to give the results? If you look at an ebay auction and you see that it is not 99% you become very leary purchasing. As for sending a card in to get grade that you bought from someone and them having to pay for the service. It was hashed in another thread and would not be appropriate. As I stated in the earlier response, why not just have a description and a scan for the front and back? The pictures tell the story and grading is subjective as everyone knows. Mr verkman I believe you would eliminate many of the preceptions of your auctions if you did this and these threads would not continually popup. I also applaud the fact you have responded to thread but until you get off the fact that you think I want a 15% refund a year and a half after the transactions and answer the question I have imposed. I will continue to inform people that read this board when the question is imposed. As for having too much time on my hands, heck I give out bowling shoes for a living, maybe I do but what difference does it make? This could have been resolved along time ago. Lee

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02-03-2005, 05:41 AM

Posted By: warshawlawI bought an item unique enough that there isn't going to be any upgrading to ensure my satisfaction, if that is what you meant. All I am suggesting is giving this established dealer a fair shake. As for ebay, the problem there is you are dealing with joe blow from podunk most of the time and you have to be hyper-cautious as a result because you know that a problem seller is going to abscond with your money with no recourse and no concerns about the reputation-trashing you are going to lay on him as a result. Steve's coming in here to address these issues is an indication that he is listening and it is worth it to take a chance, IMHO. If things work out well, why not share that info too?

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02-10-2005, 04:05 PM

Posted By: warshawlawthe strip of W551s I won was exactly as described and very securely packed in a box large enough to hold a flat screen monitor, so it got here nice and clean. I'd definitely have another go at Steve's auctions based on this experience.