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01-23-2005, 01:16 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>What are some of your all time "Underrated HOFer Lists"? There are many players/cards in which their recognition/price tags seem disproportionate to their accomplishments.<br /><br />In my mind a 1930's or 40's Foxx card shouldn't be attainable for double digit price tags. I guess certain players are more celebrated than others for different reasons.

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01-23-2005, 03:42 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>He was right up there in the top few about 20-25 years ago but has done little over time. Others:<br /><br />--Grove: One of the 4-5 best pitchers, ever, yet little respect in many issues.<br />--Hubbell: the NL pitcher of the 1930s; quite a few high grade issues of the 1930's available for $100-$200. <br />--Sisler: until the past year with Ichiro, no one really thought about how good this guy really was. Had the bad luck to play in the 1920s-1930s and was overshadowed by by Gehrig, Foxx and Greenberg. <br />--Terry: See Sisler. some critics say he hit a weak .400. Please... .400 is .400...<br />--Ott: for some reason, he is treated as a fluke 500 HR hitter...<br />--Heilmann: OK, one of my pet players, but 4 batting titles and a .342 BA. <br />--Lefty O'Doul <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I know, I know...<br /><br /><br />And some overrated ones:<br />--Hack Wilson<br />--Dizzy Dean<br />--George Kelly<br />--Harry Hooper<br /><br /><br />

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01-23-2005, 03:43 PM
Posted By: <b>Billy</b><p>Eddie Collins <br />

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01-23-2005, 04:43 PM
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Absolutely, Eddie Collins is THE most underrated HOFer in the hobby. He was among the 1st players elected into the hall, but his cards sell for little more than those that got mercy/political votes by the veterans comittee.

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01-23-2005, 07:37 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Eddie Collins is truly underrated. Here is my long list: Billy Hamilton, Lajoie, Hornsby(averaged .400 over a 5 yr span), Heilmann (hit .400 twice), Sisler, Al Simmon, Foxx, Musial, Spahn, Kiner(7 straight HR titles to start career??), Frank Robinson, Hank Aaron, and Jim Rice!<br /><br />Overrated(this list may offend some): Joe Dimaggio, perhaps Mike Kelly(although an interesting figure), Cal Ripkin, and yes I feel Mickey Mantle is a little overrated... especially when you compare him to his 50's and 60's rival, Willie Mays.<br /><br />I recognize the fact Dimaggio and Mantle captured people's hearts and imagination. Infact, they do so mine. So, I have no problem with the fact they are celebrated. I preffer Williams over Dimaggio and Mays over Mantle though. Oh, and I do have a problem with Ripken being as celebrated as he has and is. <br />

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01-23-2005, 07:51 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Overrated: Mantle (4, count em, 4 100 RBI seasons); Ripken; Nolan Ryan (here we go again!!); Dizzy Dean; Duke Snider.<br /><br />Underrated: Musial (his numbers are unbelievable compared to Mantle for example); Feller (add back the lost war years and you see well over 300 wins); Grove, Heilmann.

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01-23-2005, 08:06 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Ripken isnt a hall of famer yet and Kiner i think is overrated and im a huge Pirates fan.He was strictly a one-dimensional player with a short career.If we are counting non-hall of famers who will be someday then McGwire is the most overrated.<br /><br />As far as prices the most underrated could very well be Collins,Jake Beckley cards go pretty cheap comparitively and he had some great stats.I always though Sam Crawford cards were a little undervalued,he has some great stats but tends to get lost being in the same outfield as Cobb

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01-23-2005, 09:40 PM
Posted By: <b>BillL</b><p>Why the Ripken bashing? Although not a big fan of his (grew up watching Brooks)look at his stats and look at what he did for baseball - all positive.<br />He did what he was paid to do - which put him way ahead of most. What is he overrated for? He was ROY, MVPx2, won a W.S., over 3000 hits, redefined the ss position.....Unbelievable, 2 guys already saying he is an overrated HOF'er AND HE ISN'T EVEN IN IT YET

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01-23-2005, 09:48 PM
Posted By: <b>Ray</b><p>Mark was a machine when he was on the A's too... most people forget he and Canseco were the Bash Brothers and went to the World Series twice, winning once. He'll always be remembered for hitting 70 homers for the Cardinals and for his Andro, but his career goes 10-12 seasons before all that, and it was awesome! overrated??? more like underrated!!! He and Sosa brought back baseball to America after the strike.

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01-23-2005, 09:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Billy</b><p>Big Mac is overated. Hit .201 in 1991 and only 1626 hits lifetime. Great power guy obviously, but not much else.<br /><br />Eddie Collins had 3315 hits (10th) .424 career OBP (14th) 744 steals (7th),1821 runs (14th), 4 world series championships, and Chalmers MVP award. He should be equal to Lajoie, Wagner, or Speaker atleast. I bet 9/10 of baseball fans have never heard of him.

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01-23-2005, 10:07 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Underrated: 19th Century - Sam Thompson, 20th Century - Sam Crawford.<br /><br />Overrated: Phil Rizzuto.

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01-23-2005, 10:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Ripken is a HOFer to be and deserving. But, in my opinion he is put on an undeserving pedestal. He did what he was paid to do? He played every game of the season, even at the expense of his productivity. I don't think it's a secret that him playing every single day had an effect on his playing. Ripkin batted .270 or less for 11 of his 21 seasons. <br /><br />I also feel McGwire is a HOFer to be. The 98 season is one of the most special in history. He was a big HR hitter before his big seasons of the late 90's (never over 49 though), but he was also hitting .230. Which brings me to Sosa- Before 1998 his typical season was closer to .260/35/100.<br />

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01-23-2005, 10:17 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I think he is overrated because of the Streak. He misses one game, and he is still a HOFer of course but not a baseball icon. Ozzie Smith may have redefined the position; Cal did not in my opinion, although to be sure he was an outstanding shortstop more in the sense of being consistent than being spectacular. His 3000 hits are a longevity statistic much as Yount's and Murray's were, his lifetime BA was only in the mid .270s. I don't think I am "bashing" him just saying he is overrated.

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01-23-2005, 10:18 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>You cant be serious in saying McGwire is underrated,and it has nothing to do with andro<br />as i dont discredit anyones home run totals.I didnt forget anything about McGwire,i saw his whole career,i had his rookie card in 1985,it went right into a plastic page and its been there since untouched.He is to me the most overrated player for many reasons but basically home runs are what runs this sport,highlight shows,etc and thats what he was great at so he gets all the credit in the world for that,but ive heard people rank him as one of the greatest players ever.Thats an outlandish statement<br /><br /><br />A player that strikes out in 26 percent of his at-bats,hits .263 career and has 18 combined triples and stolen bases in 16 years and was no more than average at fielding at 1stbase of all positions[when he played 3rdbase he fielded .827 or 135 points below average] cannot be considered one of the greatest players of all-time.He batted .217 in the playoffs career and was pinch hit for in his last at-bat,he had 5 seasons where he batted less than .240 and 2 others where he was injured and hit 18 homers total.He won 1 rbi title in his career and was never an mvp nor deserved one.<br /><br />Is he a hall of famer,yes,but one of the greatest ever,no

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01-23-2005, 10:42 PM
Posted By: <b>Alaskapaul2</b><p>Warren Spahn gets very little love despite the 363 wins and being arguably the greatest southpaw since Grove.

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01-23-2005, 11:01 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I'd pick Musial as underrated. He is a popoular guy, but many historians have argued that he was a better player than Ted Williams.

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01-23-2005, 11:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Billy</b><p>Didn't Musial play against girls from 1943-46 when he won his 3 MVP's? Since Ted was John Glenn's wingman during that time, I would say Williams is rightly remembered as more significant than Musial. <br />

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01-23-2005, 11:21 PM
Posted By: <b>qualitycards.com</b><p>I always thought Frank Robinson never got his due. When most talk of the legends of the 50's/60's, usually Mantle, Mays, Aaron & Clemente comes up. His cards are worth certainly less then those guys and hell, he's still involved w/ baseball as manager of the Washington Nationals. Thats almost 50 years as player, coach, scout & manager.

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01-23-2005, 11:36 PM
Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>uh, Musial won his 3 MVP's in 1943, 1946, and 1948. Only in one of those years some of the stars were missing. Additionally, he finished 2nd in the MVP voting 4 times none of which were in the war years, so give him his due and get your facts correct.

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01-23-2005, 11:37 PM
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I don't care if Ted Williams fench kissed Audie Murphy. I still pick Stan Musial as the most underrated Hall of Famer in the hobby.

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01-23-2005, 11:57 PM
Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p><br />Under- Luke Appling (the guy was Tony Gwynn before Tony Gwynn), Eddie Collins, Stan Musial (if he was a Yankee, he would have been cherished), Hank Aaron (does anybody care about him? He didn't need the 'roids!). <br /><br />Over- Phil Rizzuto (get his plaque out of the Hall), Kirby Puckett (Didn't play long enough and after reading the SI article, why do we still hammer 'Hustle'?), Ralph Kiner, Bobby Doerr.<br /><br />What about next year? Does anyone believe that Andre Dawson, Bruce Sutter and/or Goose Gossage are Hall Of Famers? Bruce Sutter, Hall Of Famer? Sounds funny.

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01-23-2005, 11:59 PM
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>A lot of card "hobby" popularity is based on where the person played. Mantle was a member of many great NEW YORK teams. NEW YORK, that says a lot.<br /><br />I know Mantle was a great player but I think he's a bit over rated in some respects. But he did play in the media capital of the world. You have to remember that it wasn't so long ago that media coverage wasn't what it is today. <br /><br />If I had a choice to choose between a 52T Mantle in really nice condition or an amount of cards of other HOFers worth the same amount of money I would easily not chose the Mantle card. I'd get a lot more bang for the buck and I'd probably enjoy looking at several different cards rather than one card that has a lot of hype. <br /><br />Am I saying that Mantle is an over rated HOFer in our hobby? Yes, I guess so. I still think he's a great of the game, regardless.

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01-24-2005, 02:25 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This is purely hobby related and has nothing to do with whether a person deserves to be in or not.<br /><br />Underrated - Spahn, Crawford, Grove, E Collins, Sisler<br /><br />Overrated - Mantle, Ripken, Koufax, DiMaggio, McGwire if/when he makes it, <br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-24-2005, 02:33 AM
Posted By: <b>Rob Mckenzie</b><p>I read somewhere that Mantle clocked the fastest time to first in his early years and that Henderson had the second fastest recorded time.<br /><br />I know you guys are gonna laugh, but if I had a vote I'd put Dave Kingman in the HOF. He hit the longest homerun I've ever seen in the Astrodome. I never heard a sound like that before or since.

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01-24-2005, 02:35 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll still take Cool Papa Bell over Mantle in a race around the basepaths<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-24-2005, 05:28 AM
Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Eddie Mathews & Rube Waddell

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01-24-2005, 07:03 AM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Underrated: Mark McGuire - nobody hit as many HRs/AB.<br /><br />Overrated: Mickey Mantle - His stats do not match his card prices.<br /><br />

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01-24-2005, 09:04 AM
Posted By: <b>Sean Coe</b><p>Underrated Pitcher- Alexander<br />Underrated Infielders-Eddie Collins, Sisler<br />Underrated Outfielder-Musial

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01-24-2005, 09:19 AM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Speaking of a possibly overrated card is it just me or does the card itself bear little or no resemblance to Mantle himself? I don't see any resemblance at all, in any of the features of whoever is depicted on the card.

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01-24-2005, 09:20 AM
Posted By: <b>rick</b><p><br />I'm from St.Louis and bleed Cardinal Red<br />In Just Cardinals<br />overated:<br />Dizzy Dean(he just was not around long enough)<br />underated<br />Enos Slaughter(what took him so long to get in?)<br /><br />others<br />overated: Koufax<br />under: Feller

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01-24-2005, 10:09 AM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Gilbert did you read all of the stuff i wrote about McGwire,and you still think he can be underrated. He was the most hyped player when he was playing,how could he be underrated.This is the same guy that in 1995,10 years into his career wouldnt have stayed on the hall of fame ballot one year,he only played 6 more seasons and the last 2 were nothing special in 2000 and in 2001 he batted .187 for the season,and struck out once every 3 at-bats.Those 12 seasons combined would not get him hall of fame votes 255/338/905.<br /><br />So then we go on a 4 year stretch where he hits a ton of homers and he goes from a guy who would rank as a one and done hall of fame ballot guy to one of the best ever and underrated.I dont think so.Name another guy who can be good for 3/4 of his career,but only be judged on the other 1/4.If you throw in his 70 home run season hes in Darrell Evans class as a player and when do you hear his name mentioned,and Evans defense makes up for HR/AB difference between the 2<br /><br />One of McGwires other amazing seasons he hit .274 with 159 K's and scored 86 runs total but people remember the 58 HRs.Its a great home run season,but not an all-time season.I would give him more credit for the year if he played something besides firstbase but he couldnt.His fielding range stats are skewed by the fact he played in a stadium with the most foul territory<br /><br />Heres the ultimate McGwire standard i use.Give 2 players 1150 career runs scored,460 career homers,1400 rbi's and a 260 average,with 250 doubles and no stolen bases,a ton of strikeouts and we dont care that they werent the best fielders.Now give one guy an MYP,200 stolen bases and add 90 doubles to his totals,and all we give to the other guy is 120 home runs.Sounds fair right,thats a good 3 for 1 trade and everything else stays even.Now you tell the one guy hes now one of the greatest players ever and a sure-fire 1st ballot hall of famer,and the other guy can watch hall of fame ceremonies from his home because he has no chance of going.Doesnt seem fair does it,sounds like we base the one guys career too much on those added home runs and not what else he did besides it.<br /><br />McGwire at the same time as his 4 year run of homers was being outdone by Sammy Sosa and people were saying,Sosa could be the first 500 home run guy not to make the hall of fame.McGwires career stats dont even hold a candle to Rafeal Palmiero's career stats and some people still question whether hes a hall of famer. McGwire is in the same class as Kiner for a career and i rank him near the lower half of HOFers,McGwire definitely wasnt better than him.McGwire was not a better player than Albert Belle,look at their stats if you dont believe me,does anyone really think Belle will make the hall of fame....NO, because he compares too close to Jim Rice and he doesnt make it every year.Was McGwire better than Rice,no,but did he hit more home runs,yes and thats all we base it on.<br /><br />For a guy to be underrated he would have to get less attention than he deserves,which obviously McGwire doesnt because no one underestimates what he did for his team.When people convienantly forget all the bad stuff he does and only remember the good then he can NEVER be called underrated

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01-24-2005, 11:02 AM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>All of your statistics are quite interesting, thank you for laying them out for our perusal, john/z28jd. There is not much which can be offered in rebuttal of your assessment if you do not consider the fact important that McGuire has been the most productive home run hitter in the history of the game thus far.<br /><br />To me, and many others home runs are important. And to be the greatest home run producer ever, and get so little press for it, is indicative of being underrated.<br /><br />Similarly McGuire's multi-year home run hitting binge is unequalled, in the estimate of some, by anyone's hitting performance outside of Hornsby. Im not sure if I agree with that. I guess it depends on how you value a home run.

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01-24-2005, 11:27 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>McGwire underpublicized? ROTFLMFAO!!! The guy was a one trick pony, plain and simple. Does this mean Vince Coleman should get in the HOF too? And Mcgwire did not have the best "binge" of HRs ever. Bonds and Sosa own most, if not all, of those records. <br /><br />Please, McGwire underrated and underpublicized? Give me a break. <br /><br />Mac falls somwhere between Maris and Kiner. And at least Maris has 2 MVPs to his credit. Mac couldn't even win it when set the HR record. What does that tell you about his overall ability? <br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-24-2005, 11:33 AM
Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>Jay, what's the rule about you mentioning Bonds, even in passing? Behave yourself.<br /><br />Since we're on non-vintage players, as a Sox fan I always rooted for Ripken's insertion in the O's lineup, since he would go through horrible 4-for-71 streaks batting cleanup and just kill them. No manager would dare take him out, of course.<br /><br />Bill

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01-24-2005, 11:52 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>It wasn't intentional. Just happened to be another HR record he broke and that Mac doesn't have anymore. Mac has the record for 2, 3 and 4 years worth of HR. After that, it's all He Who Shall Not Be Named and Sosa. Mac had no longevity. And certianly wasn't feared when came to the plate becuase you knew you had would strike 2 or 3 times for each HR he hit. It's a pretty sad statement about a players ability to hit when half your career hit total is HRs. Even as pathetic a hitter as Kingman was, he still could hit more than just HRs, unlike Mac.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-24-2005, 11:54 AM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Home runs to me are important too but i cant make them 80 percent of a guys ranking and rate everything else so low.If he played a more important position than first base then i would say he deserves all the praise he got and his 4 seasons of home run hitting are great but his total impact of the game over his career doesnt warrant elite player status.<br /><br />Bill James in a 2000 book has him ranked 31st all-time among players which isnt a bad ranking for the time BUT i dont think James couldve foreseen him having a horrible season like he did and then retiring because he was done as a player.<br /><br />I rank McGwire as the 3rd best home run hitter ever, but Dave Kingman also makes the top 10 list for that and i dont have Kingman in the top 100 players of all-time,so it has to even out somewhere.McGwire wouldnt rank on any other list because hes a one tool player [except a 3-4 year stretch where he was a decent glove at first,not glod glove but not bad]<br /><br />I still dont remember a point in time where he was underrated.This is the same guy that made 3 straight all-star game appearances where he hit a combined .223 over that stretch.You cant do that without being overrated. Guys put up stretches similar to his 4 year home run binge but instead of hitting 245 home runs,they might hit 160 with alot more singles,doubles,runs scored and the same rbi total.<br /><br /> Like i pointed out without that 4 year stretch he doesnt make it past the first year of hall of fame ballots,and the sad part is he couldve hit 140 homers over that stretch[35 a year] added 35 singles 70 doubles[because he only hit 90 over that 4 year stretch] and kept all the other numbers exactly the same and he wouldnt be a hall of famer.He would probably get about 50 percent of the votes tops going by similar players.<br /><br />So that shows the only thing that pushes him from being remembered as a very good ballplayer,to a top level hall of famer,is him hitting the ball over the fence instead of off it.He scored exactly half of his career runs off homeruns.The only way to do that is swinging all or nothing and being a clog on the base paths.I mean even Cecil Fielder was able to score runs once he had to run bases,and he was 450 lbs

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01-24-2005, 11:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Jay: your statements provide testimony regarding how underpublicized McGuire's performance is.<br /><br />Specifically, McGuire averaged over 60 HRs per year during the course of a four year interval. Bonds has averaged 60 HR.yr. for "only" two consecutive seasons, while Sosa equalled McGuire's mark (but did it with less total homeruns.<br /><br />In general, the average baseball fan has not heard of this accomplishment (in terms of consecutive average 60+ HR years). Additionally, the average baseball fan is not aware that McGuire has hit homeruns at a greater rate that anyone else has.<br /><br />But actually, I was tempted to say that the cards of the Crime Dog are the most underrated. But to be so, he'd have to come back and get the 7 he needs to make 500. And I'm not sure he will.

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01-24-2005, 11:56 AM
Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>Most underrated HOF'er has to be Bob Feller. Had one of the greatest fastballs ever and if he had not lost some key years to the war when he was in his 20's, his numbers would have been mind boggling. Yet you never really hear much about him.

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01-24-2005, 12:08 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Gilbert just brought up a good point and im not going into the McGwire thing again eventho comparing the famous 4 year stretch to Bonds last 4 years in laughable UNLESS youre only talking about home runs.<br /><br />He mentioned McGriff needs 7 more home runs for 500 and he is coming back this season to try to get it.Does 7 extra homers over a 20 year career actually make a man better.Every 3rd year he couldve hit one more ball over the fence or 1 extra every 1200 at-bats carries just a little more and that makes him a better player because he reached a round number.McGriff should make the hall if people consider 500 to be a milestone that assures youre a hall of famer[just like 300 wins,or 3000 hits].I think 2490 hits,.284 avg and 1550 rbi's are good enough numbers to make up for 7 HRs<br /><br />

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01-24-2005, 12:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Gentlemen: I do not contend that McGuire is anything other than a one trick pony. But he was the best at that one trick if judged solely by RATE of HR production: 4 seasons & career. He didn't hit the most homeruns in a season, career, game, inning, month nor other yardsticks. But he did do two things which I feel are underpublicized.

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01-24-2005, 12:17 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gilbert, what color is the sky where you are from? My son was living in Germany when Mac set the record. He hates baseball and I know his step-dad isn't a baseball fan either, and he can still tell you all about Mac and his 4 year run. And my son was 7 when set the record. Unrated and underpublicized? Give me a break. For those 4 years, all you heard about was Mac and his HRs. <br /><br />And how the hell are HRs underpublicized? That's all they ever talk about on SportsCenter and elsewhere.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-24-2005, 12:30 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>This guy was on sportscenter everyday with the home run watch for 3 straight years thats all you heard about were projections,ratios what Ruth and Maris had at each point in their seasons.I worked at a golf center during the year he hit 70 home runs,my friend owned a restaurant inside the place,and the place stopped dead during his at-bats and watched the 2 little tv's inside the gift shop.People who didnt watch baseball were glued to the sets and could probably tell you where they were now when he hit home run 70<br /><br />If you went to the hall of fame the year or year after his 70 HR season you wouldve seen a room dedicated solely to that feat,the pitchers who let up the homers,momentos from each homers.This is the hall of fame,the ultimate when talking about baseball and they had an entire room only for his home runs. You cant go up from there,there is no where to go past hall of fame and no one else has a big room just for doing one thing real good.Theres no Randy Johnson,Cy Young, or Rickey Henderson room in the building<br /><br />That is the epitomy of overrating someone.Taking one stat and elevating him to a god-like status because of it.His other stats dont matter to anyone as long as his HR ratio is the best.He wasnt a better home run hitter than Kiner or Ruth tho,you have to judge them by what players around them did too because they came along a long time before the lively ball era of the late 90s early 00's

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01-24-2005, 01:33 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>So then, John & Jay: it is safe to assess that neither of you can cite even a single publication which clearly states that either:<br /><br />McGwire has averaged over 60 HRs for four consecutive years, or<br /><br />McGwire has hit homeruns throughout his career at a higher rate than anyone else has in MLB.<br /><br /><br />PS. The sky is grey and the snow is powder.<br /><br /><br /><br />Good point, three25hits

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01-24-2005, 01:47 PM
Posted By: <b>three25hits</b><p>He's got to be under-rated if people don't even know how to spell his name...

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01-24-2005, 02:47 PM
Posted By: <b>Ryan</b><p>Ok, maybe he's not 100% HOF material, but Gaetti is a player that never quite got the respect he deserved. That man's fabulous swing inspired me to take up golfing!

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01-24-2005, 02:51 PM
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Under rated- Hornsby. Certainly in card prices. For on of the greatest hitters ever he gets little respect.

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01-24-2005, 03:54 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gilbert, do you read anything? Cripes, Sports Illustrated, TSN, ESPN the magazine and lord knows how many other sports publications and assorted magazines and publications have mentioned those facts, and innumerable other facts about McGwire's proclivity for hitting HRs.<br /><br />Gilbert, you aren't making yourself look very well read.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-24-2005, 04:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>pre war Harry Heilmann, Rogers Hornsby, & Ty Cobb<br />post war Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, & Eddie Murray

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01-24-2005, 10:57 PM
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Someone mentioned Alexander. I agree he used to be underrated in the hobby, and is still underrated by the general public. But have you seen the prices of his cards lately? I don't think he's underrated in the hobby anymore.

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01-24-2005, 11:39 PM
Posted By: <b>Matthew Jackson</b><p>Outside of the Busch Stadium when I was a kid, my family made small talk with an old man & I showed my baseball cards of the current players I had gotten autographed that day. I did not know until afterwards that he was Stan the Man. He had the good fortune of playing in a great baseball city, but playing in the Midwest in the 50's & 60's meant you got overlooked. Great guy & one of the best players ever.<br /><br />Has anyone mentioned Al Simmons as an underated HOFer? His cards are rarely overpriced. Look at the stats. He wasn't Musial, but most people have never even heard of him.

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01-24-2005, 11:48 PM
Posted By: <b>qualitycards.com</b><p>Seems that many choose Phil Rizzuto as an over-rated HOF'er.<br />My logic has always been....If Pee Wee Reese is in the Hall so should Rizzuto.<br />Rizzuto won an MVP, hit .273, had a better fielding % and went to 9 World Series winning 7<br /><br />Reese hit .269 and went to 7 World Series winning 1<br /><br />Ted Williams was asked what was the difference in the Yankees always going to the World Series and not the Red Sox, his response "Phil Rizzuto"

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01-25-2005, 06:20 AM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Well Jay, I guess that I got my information from somewhere. The point wasn't where I found it though, it was whether McGwire's two specific accomplishments were well publicized or not.<br /><br />I think that we have put on a sufficient show for everyone to determine that for themselves, if they even care. Rest assured that I will not ask you to identify the specific issues of the publications which you are referring to.

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01-25-2005, 10:22 AM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=4522569762&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=4522569762&rd=1</a><br /><br />this ones all about him<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5160001385&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5160001385&rd=1</a><br />notice this is an extra edition of SI,they only do that for special occasions<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=4522569336&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=280&item=4522569336&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5159714139&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5159714139&rd=1</a><br /><br />everybody gets tv guide Gilbert<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5159652482&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50133&item=5159652482&rd=1</a><br /><br />not a publication but they dont give stamps to just anyone<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159628708&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159628708&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159625541&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159625541&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159416380&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159416380&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159416206&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159416206&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64483&item=5159268584&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64483&item=5159268584&rd=1</a><br /><br />not a book but they dont put people on wheaties boxes cause they smell nice<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159232756&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5159232756&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73429&item=5154084714&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73429&item=5154084714&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5146058398&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5146058398&rd=1</a><br /><br />this one is a good read Gilbert<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5144991354&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5144991354&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5144991577&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5144991577&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73430&item=5140503651&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73430&item=5140503651&rd=1</a><br /><br />well damn,thats a 120 page book all about it<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73430&item=5131228419&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73430&item=5131228419&rd=1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5109260146&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64488&item=5109260146&rd=1</a><br /><br />time magazine huh,not big on baseball usually<br /><br /><br />Those are just the ones i found on ebay that are going right now with him on the cover.I didnt include any of the commerative plates,hartland statues,pins,baseballs,videos,trading cards,posters or photos that specifically commerarate his home run feat,and there were a couple other magazines in found at the end but were in big lots and included ones i had already posted.<br /><br />Also if you go in a 5 year stretch of home runs including the year after McGwires amazing 4 year stretch and the year after Sosa's best 4 year stretch,youll find out Sosa hit 5 more home runs over that time.Remember what Bill James said,using the lowest common denominator you could put Amos Otis in the hall of fame and have a good argument for it.<br /><br />How many guys in baseball history have had over 350 doubles,1000 runs scored and rbis,2000 hits,60 triples,190 homers,a slugging percent of at least .425 and 340 stolen bases.The answer is less than 10 and Amos Otis is one of them.You could go thru a who's who of baseball history and eliminate them Ruth,Cobb,Aaron,Mays,Mantle,Robinson,Lajoie,Collin s,any 19th century player,Foxx,Dimaggio,Gehrig etc etc but theres good old Amos Otis in a group with Bonds,Barry Larkin,Roberto Alomar and Joe Morgan.If you want to make the group even smaller to include just Amos,all you have to say is 'and led the league in doubles and/or stolen bases at least once' <br /><br />Good old Amos Otis is the only guy ever in baseball history to put up those numbers,plus he won 3 gold gloves.Does that make him the best player of all time then or one of the best.No...Does it make him underrated because no one here knew that since James book came out 7 years ago before 3 of those guys made his first list which included alot less qualifiers.<br /><br />Every knew Mark McGwire hit home runs at a record pace,it was on espn and the newspapers everyday,you couldnt miss it.It was rehashed when Bonds was closing in on it,ive read it places including a Bill James book,i couldve figured it out on my own but because you dont hear about it everyday doesnt mean its not in print,im sure his hall of fame plaque will mention it.<br /><br />Mac's streak is impressive but theres plenty of impressive stuff you hear alot less and it doesnt get the guy into the hall of fame based solely on it.Mark Grace led the majors in hits and doubles in the 90's. Hes not going to the HOF,and thats a domination over a 10 year period with natural boundries set,everyone knows what a decade is

Archive
01-25-2005, 12:08 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>.<br /><br /><br />.

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01-25-2005, 12:15 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gilbert, if you truely are the dense, you deserve to take my title of Dunderhead. As I said in another post, if people in GERMANY!!!! that aren't baseball fans know about McGwire and his frenetic HR pace, then imagine how overhyped that info is here in the US. <br /><br />I'd say quit while your ahead, but all you do is dig yourself a deeper hole. Let us know when you hit China.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

Archive
01-25-2005, 12:49 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I dont even want to know what his comment was do i. This is the most ridiculous conversation ive ever heard and im in it.<br /><br />Heres more proof for you Gilbert,do a yahoo serch for Mark McGwire,and then so you dont feel bad do one for Mark McGuire also and believe it or not more results come up.<br /><br />Then do one for Harmon Killebrew and one for Ralph Kiner and youll find out he has 2 of the greatest pure home run hitters in baseball history beat in website mentions by a ratio of 10 to 1 and thats combined for the both<br /><br />You could go look that up right now at yahoo.com to see im not fabricating it at all....then come back and tell me hes underrated or underappreciated

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01-25-2005, 12:53 PM
Posted By: <b>Greg</b><p>Gary Gaetti in the Hall of Fame...why not elect Stale Dale Murphy on the first ballot. Ooh wait! How about Steve Balboni, he was on the Yankees, that makes him eligable right? Maybe if it was the 'stromboli gnawing' HOF. The only people that would vote Gaetti into the Hall are his close relatives, it's the Hall of FAME not the Hall of Noteriety. Gary Gaetti??<br />Greg B.<br />

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01-25-2005, 12:54 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>Permanent time out on Mark McGwire, please. If you want to discuss Canseco's merits, go right ahead.<br /><br />Bill

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01-25-2005, 01:14 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bill, we can't talk about Canseco becuase that would lead to a discussion about guns and the NRA. And that is never a good thing on an internet board.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-25-2005, 01:20 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Well that was so good, lemme try another. The next most underrated HOFs are the keystone combination for the White Sox in the fifties and sixties.<br /><br />Again because of records. One led the league in an offensive catagory for ten consecutive years, the other for "only" nine. Id haveta check, but I believe the only other MLB players to achieve that were Ruth and Cobb.

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01-25-2005, 01:40 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I think Mel Harder is the most underrated,so underrated they dont even give him a plaque desite getting enough votes to be elected one year.Dont believe me,heres the explanation of the rules at the time it happened...<br /><br />One player per voting can be elected to the hall of fame as long as he has the most votes from the 15-20 members of the veterans committee and he exceeds 75 percent of the vote.Harder passed the 75 percent mark during one veterans election[not sure on year but ill edit it when i look it up] but lost out by one vote to someone else.<br /><br />So he did recieve 75 percent of the votes one year[actually 80 percent] but he wasnt the top vote getter. Hows that for a Hard[er] kick in the pants

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01-25-2005, 01:57 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gilbert, it's hard for bottom tier HOFers to be underrated in the hobby. It's kind of like a back up catcher being underrated. <br /><br />Lefty Grove is considered one of teh 5 greatest pitchers of all-time, yet his card prices don't refelct it. That is what it means to be underrated IN THE HOBBY. Likewise, Hornsby and his 4 year run puts to shame anything Ruth or Bonds has ever put together, plus he has career numbers to match. But from the prices of his cards, you'd never guess he was one of the greatest hitters the game ever saw. That's what it means to underrated in the hobby.<br /><br />Apparicio and Fox are far from being underrated in the game or in the hobby. Appariciio lead the league in SB when no one was stealing. 20 SB could easily get you title. Now if he won 10 straight titles in the deadball era or in today's game, then it might be an impressive feat. If Ruth had managed to stay healthy in '22 and '25 he would have run off 14 straight HR titles, but it would have come with the same caveat, he got most of his titles when no one else was hitting HRs. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-25-2005, 02:12 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>What is really difficult is to identify players which you are sure to disagree with, who at the same time are a little defensable.<br /><br />So let the games begin.<br /><br />Certainly you can't find fault with the selection of players who although they led the league in an offensive catagory for nominally a decade, received essentially no publicity for this achievement.

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01-25-2005, 02:14 PM
Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>I think all anyone cares about today is home runs. If someone like Cobb (maybe Rickey Henderson) played today, where would he rank? Would Henderson make your top-10 baseball players list? Would Paul Molitor even come to mind just for the last 20 years? He was 8th all-time in hits, 500+ doubles, 500+ stolen bases, World Series MVP, and had a 39 game hit streak. So he was a DH, he still put up the numbers. To me that's more impressive than R. Jackson striking out over 2,500 times.

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01-25-2005, 02:18 PM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Glen: where does Ichiro rank?<br /><br />Helton, Pujols, etc.

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01-25-2005, 02:22 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I love the SB as much, or more than most people, but except for a brief time in the mid 80s with Henderson, Raines and Coleman at their peak, no one gave a rats ass about SBs. Casual fans don't appreciate the little things it takes to win a game. All they care about are HRs and players swinging as hard as they can to try and hit the ball out of the park. They could care less what went into setting up that situation that allowed those runs to be scored.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-25-2005, 02:25 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Gilbert, onsidering that not one of those players you mentioned is even 2 years away from having 10 years of service, it's kind of pointless to figure out where they rank. I don't think any of them meets minimum requirements for career records.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-25-2005, 03:01 PM
Posted By: <b>Billy</b><p>Lefty Grove is a very interesting case. His constantly led the league in ERA and his career ERA was one and a half runs lower than the league AVERAGE over that period. His is #3 in black ink, #6 in grey ink rankings for pitchers all-time, and a 300 game winner. How did he only get voted on 76.40% of the ballots??

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01-25-2005, 09:10 PM
Posted By: <b>Josh Evans</b><p>Most overrated Barry Halper<br /><br />Most underrated Mr. Mint