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01-13-2005, 02:04 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p><a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-rogermaris&prov=ap&type=lgns" target=_new>http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-rogermaris&prov=ap&type=lgns</a><br /><br />Roger Maris was a real good player for 3 seasons.That doesnt make a hall of fame career by any stretch.Hes a .260 hitter with a short career and no milestone accomplishments to go along with his famous feat.I cant consider him without any of the following 2000 hits,1000 runs or rbi's, 300 average,300 homers<br /><br />A 12 season career with his last 4 being a combined 240/35/170 thats a 1/3rd of a short career being a bum[injuries or not] Its not like theres no other bad seasons 235/14/51 rookie year, 269/23/53 in 1963.If he makes the hall of fame,its based on one season only and one accomplishment only.Forget his .217 career postseason average too i guess.<br /><br />The most comparable career to his right now is Jeromy Burnitz and i dont know anyone who wants him in the hall of fame,and he still might have 3 good years left.<br /><br />In all honesty if you go to the hall of fame,theres enough Roger Maris connections in there that you wont forget who he is,he doesnt need an undeserved plaque to be remembered.Theres 25 guys on the ballot for the vets committee,of the other 24 id vote for 22 of them before i voted for Maris[Im not saying i would vote all 22 guys into the hall tho obviously,hes just far down on the list]

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01-13-2005, 02:08 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I am a rabid Yankees fan, but there is no way Maris qualifies. He falls about three or four MVP-type seasons short, IMHO. No way does he get in before Lefty O'Doul. <br /><br />Lefty! Lefty! Lefty!

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01-13-2005, 02:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Roger Maris is a part of baseball history and it is a huge part but enshrinement should be saved for the all time greats. . <br /><br />He had a HOF season but not a HOF career. If he had only hit 59 or even 60 homeruns in 1961 I don't think he'd be considered for the HOF. Maris broke a hallowed baseball record and that's his claim to fame. I think he was a great player but not HOF material.

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01-13-2005, 02:34 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Had he been injury-free and played up to his potential over a career of normal length, who knows what might have been. But based on his actual record, it isn't even worth discussing.

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01-13-2005, 02:37 PM
Posted By: <b>qualitycards.com</b><p>I always liked Maris and wouldn't mind him in the Hall, although I do feel his #'s come up short.<br />But here's food for thought.... Sometime the Hall Of Fame isn't just about raw #'s. Case in point Ozzie Smith, he played 19 season hit .262 w/ 28 home runs and has 13 Gold Gloves. <br />Jim Kaat has 283 wins with 16 Gold Gloves and he's not in the Hall. His win total is superior to many Hof'ers like Drysdale, Lyons & Ruffing. And based on Ozzie's #'s, Nomar must be a sure lock. His power is greater and so is his average...jay

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01-13-2005, 02:38 PM
Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Damn good ballplayer. But no.

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01-13-2005, 02:44 PM
Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>When I was a kid and we were playing Wiffle Ball or stickball I always wanted to be Roger Maris while my friends wanted to be Mickey Mantle. (Maybe there's something to my wife's comments about my sanity.)<br /><br />He was a good player and probably would have had better lifetime statistics if the pressures of the chase for 61 didn't burn him out. His batting accomplishments in New York overshadowed his considerable defensive skills (his ball retrieval/relay throw in the last game of the 1962 World Series saved the game for the Yanks) and despite just an average regular season in 1967 he was instrumental in winning the Series for the Cards.<br /><br />Despite being a big Maris fan, I can readily admit he doesn't belong in the Hall.

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01-13-2005, 03:05 PM
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Maris is not a HOFer, He had a HOF season, not career. (a Brady Anderson season). San Fransico's Lefty O'Doul should be in, carrer .349 AVE., was a pitcher as well. Why not consider O'Doul's PCL career and work in Japan, at least a little bit? He's from the left coast thats why he played on left coast. In 10 years we'll be asking does Ichiro deserve to be in HOF (8 Japanese batting titles in a row) My answer will be yes even if he only plays 6-8 years in US. Frank

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01-13-2005, 03:12 PM
Posted By: <b>qualitycards.com</b><p>"He had a HOF season, not career. (a Brady Anderson season)" <br /><br />Actually Maris won 2 MVP awards in 1960 & '61.<br />B. Anderson never won the MVP despite his 50 Home Run season.<br />As stated earlier I don't think Roger is Hall worthy, his stats are too light.<br />But he did win 2 MVP's and that should be noted.

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01-13-2005, 03:40 PM
Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>Is it an "American Baseball" HOF? ...Japan wouldn't fit<br />Is it a "Major League" HOF? ...Negro League players wouldn't make it, just as players of Spalding and McVey's era aren't allowed in.<br /><br />Lots of double-standards in the Hall, not to mention average ball players with strong constitutions.<br />

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01-13-2005, 04:18 PM
Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p>Having lived in Fairfield, Connecticut until the 4th grade before moving to Philly, Roger Maris was of course one of my favorite players and still is today. But it's not even close - he will never get in the Hall of Fame and shouldn't.

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01-13-2005, 05:02 PM
Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>His HOF season is enshrined with images of him in 1961 and his bat. But there is no way that his career numbers should earn him a plaque.

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01-13-2005, 05:49 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Can someone explain to me what he is doing in the Hall of Fame when Jim Rice, Lefty O'Doul, Tony Oliva, and even, say, Steve Garvey and Don Mattingly are not? Not that I think all those guys belong, but looking at Slaughter's numbers he just seems like a pretty good player who made one famous play.

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01-14-2005, 06:02 AM
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>slaughter lost 3 years to the war and would have came close to 3000 hits if not for this.the hall is very hard on this era of players because they lost years in service.too bad for them.how many players could be away from the game 2 or 3 years today and still compete on this high level?.please look at his first 10 years? then look at his career stats. the hall is not for only GREAT players but for very good ones..please review who's in there. we all could name 30-40 players and kick them out. but REALITY is very good players with long careers are in and some w/short career careers are in too(hafey,jackie robinson,campanella,...). i WOULD put maris in because of this...hack wilson is in(with similar stats..look 'em up)so why not maris... it's all about the FAME...maris rates..next to mantle and mays he was/is the MOST FAMOUS PLAYER OF THE 1960'S even casual fans and non fans know who he is and most of them believe he's in anyway...let him in! it won't dilute the talant pool.the main argument against letting him in is his short career while other less deserving players(w/short careers) get in.

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01-14-2005, 07:48 AM
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I guess maybe it is the Hall of FAME. It certainly is not the Hall of superior performance. If it is fame, well Maris is certainly noteworthy:<br /><br />Deadball era HR leader (35 years, 1884-1919) Ned Williamson, 27 HRs<br />Live ball era HR leader (42 years, 1919-1961) Babe Ruth, 60 HRs<br />Modern era HR leader (37 years, 1961-1998) Roger Maris, 61 HRs<br />21st Century HR leader (2001-present) Barry Bonds, 73 HRs<br /><br />Wow ! One of the big three all time home run hitters, with a 37 year reign.<br /><br />How could anyone consider keeping this man out of the Hall?<br /><br />He may not be one of the best players in baseball history, but in my opinion, he is as HallWorthy as Rabbit Maranville.

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01-14-2005, 10:36 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The only prolem with electing everyone as good as Maranville is that you end up with a few THOUSAND players in the HOF. You can't use the worst mistake as your minimum for getting in. You suck it up and hope that you never seen the cronyism that allowed good friends and unworthy players into the HOF that went on when Fritsch, Williams, et al let happen with the Old Timers committees.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-14-2005, 11:23 AM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>You keep Maris out because he doesnt have stats worthy of the hall of fame.I cant believe youre willing to look past the fact he hit .260 career and didnt reach any milestone in stats,he didnt even have 200 career doubles or steal any bases[21 career]besides what i pointed out above.I didnt even point those out because it seems irrelevant when compared to 850 career rbi's. <br /><br />Heres a better stat since people want to use his short career.Slugging percent career doesnt take into account short careers,is helps the players with short careers,just like average or winning percent.His slugging percent career is 22 points behind 100th place all-time.Doesnt sound like much but the difference between 56th place and 100th place is 22 points and the further down you go the more bunched up they get so he could be somewhere around 200th place.That stat should be his best measuring stick when compared to other players using the short career excuse as why to elect him.He was a slugger,he obviously didnt hit for average and hes known for his homers,yet cant crack the top 150.This is a guy with a 12 year career and one of the best home run seasons ever so if he was even decent the rest of his career he should rank a little bit higher wouldnt you think.The fact is his great season of 1961 doesnt even crack the top 100 highest slugging percent seasons of all-time,and the other thing to think about is that stat is weighed heavely in favor of post-deadball era guys so youre almost throwing out the first 60 years of baseball when comparing him because only 5 pre-ruth players made that list,and Maris isnt 5 away from 100th place.<br /><br />You want a much better guy known for home runs to compare him with a whos career makes Maris look even worse of a possible choice.Try looking at Rudy Yorks career stats.the guy who held the single month home run record for 61 years.I think if you check out the stats youll see he was a little bit better than Maris,career average 15 points higher,300 more rbi's in less than 800 more at bats,3 more all-star appearances,9 seasons of 90 or more rbis compared to 3 for Maris,and oh yeah he played the same amount of seasons.How often do you hear Rudy York mentioned for the hall of fame<br /><br /><br />the short career excuse only works if the player was good for his whole career.12 seasons he would need at least 10 great seasons and his last 4 were horrible,his first one was bad,his 2nd,3rd,7th and 8th were average seasons,his 2 mvp seasons could be considered great and in 1962 he hit 256/33hrs/100 rbis 92 runs scored and didnt lead the league in anything and was on a team with 7 all-stars.I dont consider that a great season but if you want to,then thats 3 seasons where he was hall of fame caliber or 1/4th of his short career at best<br />

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01-14-2005, 11:31 AM
Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>Maris is still the homerun leader. McGwire looks like a chemo patient now and do you really think Sosa and Bonds would have hit more than 50 homers without using steroids or other chemical supplements? Is it any coincidence that no one was close to 60 HRs last year as word got out that steroids were being used and testing might show it? I think not. Maris still deserves the record although that damn asterisk might one day show up again, this time for most homers in a season without cheating.

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01-14-2005, 11:41 AM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>tbob makes another good point by mistake probably,Chief Wilson has been the triples leader for over 90 years,Earl Webb the doubles leader for over 70 years,why not put them in too for how long their records have lasted.Wilson appears in the top-10 leaders for homers and rbis more often than Maris too and we wouldnt even be putting him in for that stat,thats just gravy.Webb also has those 3 top-10 home run appearances and a .306 average,forget the minimum 10 year requirement and put him in,74 years the record has stood

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01-14-2005, 01:36 PM
Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>I just looked at the stats for Maris - if this guy gets voted into the hall, it's for 61 and for 61 only. It's a conundrum - his stats say no way, not in a million years, but then, if he got voted in strictly for the 61 stat, I really wouldn't complain about it - it was such a monumental acheievement. As has been said before though, the all time doubles leader and triples leader aren't in - it's hard not to be biased by the glorificaton of the home run as a statistic, but is becoming the all time triple or double leader any easier to accomplish? Looks to me like those stats are much harder to achieve, but they aren't recognized as having anywhere close to the same grandeur. Having said that, the man definitely doesn't belong, but I'm so impressed by the home run ball (as are so many fans) that I wouldn't object either - like I said, a conundrum.<br /><br />I also looked at Lefty O'Doul's stats, and as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't get in either. He had 4 fantastic years, one of them out of this world, but otherwise the numbers just don't add up - he has a very high batting average, but with a very small number of games played. <br /><br />If it was up to me, neither would get in, it wouldn't even be close (even if my Goudey O'Doul would go up in value!).

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01-14-2005, 01:43 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>O'Doul would go in more for what he did outside of the majors than just based on major league stats alone.I think he could fall into that pioneer category where they combine everything he did to get him in.<br /><br />I dont like him now but Joe Torre i think deserves to be in based on combine accomplishments but not as a manager or player.Its not hard to manage the highest spending team but he still gets credit for what theyve done

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01-14-2005, 02:17 PM
Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>John,<br /><br />I dont think Torre should be penalized simply because the yankees spend a ton of money on players. They have overspent ever since Steinbrenner bought the team - it didnt prevent them from playing crappy bb throughout most of the 80's. Many teams spend a lot on their personnel without ever getting close to winning their division let alone a WS. I think Torre deserves significant credit for the Yankees run over the past decade or so. People also tend to overlook just how many of the yankees were home grown and not bought - Jeter, Posada, B. Williams, Rivera, Petite (when he was still a yankee), etc. (dont get me wrong, I do realize the list of free agents could go on for days).

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01-14-2005, 02:25 PM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I think the only manager it hurts is Torre because of the difference between the Yankees and other teams.I just meant i wouldnt vote him because of being a manager or player.He hasnt been hall of fame caliber at either but close for both so i think he deserves it. The fact the Yankees havent won in 4 years only hurts Torre's chances and if they dont win this year it should hurt him more.He doesnt have to manage as much as every other teams manager does because his lineup is pretty much set.Its not a hard job now and the longer he goes without winning it all the worse it looks for him.<br /><br />I still do think he will be a hall of famer as a manager,as do i think Bobby Cox and Tony Larussa eventually will be too,but neither of them were much as players

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01-14-2005, 02:31 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Garyy, you need to take a look at O'Doul's entire career, majors and minors. Back in O'Doul'd day, the PCL was almost as good as the Majors. Many players that grew up out West, like O'Doul, prefered to play closer to home and actually got paid as much or more to play in the PCL then they did for a major league team. He also has the work he put in over in Japan to make baseball what it is today over there.<br /><br />the sum of his career is more than HOF worthy<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-14-2005, 02:35 PM
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Based on your comments regarding who should/shouldn't be in, I think it would be quite interesting. Maybe you can put something together for us?

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01-14-2005, 02:47 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Noone asked me, but: Burleigh Grimes, Eppa Rixey, Enos Slaughter, Red Schoendienst, Bill Mazeroski, Phil Niekro, Gary Carter, Luke Appling, Jim Bunning, Nellie Fox, George Kell, Earl Averill, Chick Hafey (a true joke), Tony Lazzeri.

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01-14-2005, 03:18 PM
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I would vote out Bid McPhee. Not only does he have questionable stats (he was Sandberg without the home runs), but I'm going to have to sell a kidney to get his card.

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01-14-2005, 03:38 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll defer to choices made by the people that elected the managers, execs, umpires, and negro leaguers and also the BBWA. You really can't argue much with their selections. As for players, here is who I'd pull and who I'd add. <br /><br />Removed:<br />J Collins, Walsh, Tinker, Evers, Rixey, Flick, Faber, L Waner, Hoyt, Combs, Marquard, Hooper, Hafey, Youngs, G Kelly, Linstrom, H Wilson, T Jackson, Kell, Bunning, <br /><br />Boarderline already in. Wouldn't bother me if they were or weren't in:<br />Cuyler, Joe Kelley, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Lazzarri, McPhee (more out then in)<br /><br />On the outside, looking in that belong:<br />Dick Allen, Bobby Mathews, Bert Blyleven, Jim Rice, Jack Morris, Tony Mulane, Lee Smith adn Curt Flood as a pioneer and he wasn't shabby player either until he challenged the reserve clause.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-14-2005, 05:04 PM
Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p><br />&lt;tbob makes another good point by mistake probably&gt;<br /><br />LOL, I have the same affect on juries <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-14-2005, 07:05 PM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>There are two analyses of his career: player and contributor. <br /><br />O'Doul qualifies as hall-eligible as a player because he meets the 10 season rule. He started as a pitcher who was a really good hitter but was not converted quickly enough to have a long career as an outfielder. He played in 970 games, which is only 30 games short of the 1,000 game mark needed to be on the alltime stats list in fourth place for batting average. He was sent down to the minors as a pitcher. While in the PCL, he finally converted to an outfielder and was brought up in the late 1920's. He had five stellar seasons where he was one of the very best in the majors, then got old fast at 36 and went back to the PCL, where he played a bit and managed a ton, winning a lot of titles. When I say stellar player, I mean really exceptional, not just really good, what we'd call a superstar today. He came the closest of any player to hitting .400 without doing it (.398), won two batting titles, set the NL record for hits in a season which still stands, and has the highest BA of any Hall-eligible player who is not in (.349). Lest you think he was a Chuck Klein or Hack Wilson home stadium advantaged guy, he hit .352 at home and .347 on the road. I have little doubt that if he'd hit .400 he would already be in the hall...<br /><br />As a goodwill ambassador for the game, manager and coach, he was at the top of his trade for decades. O'Doul was credited by players like Ted Willians and Joe Dimaggio with helping them hone their talents. He advised Gary Cooper in training for Pride of the Yankees (said Cooper threw like an old lady tossing a biscuit). Lefty refused numerous offers to come to the majors and manage because his deal in the PCL was so financially sweet that he would have had to take a massive pay cut to do it. Otherwise, he'd have had a long managerial career in the majors. Lastly, he was the main pioneering influence in organizing Japanese professional baseball. He worked extensively with the architects of the Japanese ML and in fact they named the Tokyo Giants for Lefty's then team. If nothing else, he deserves recognition as a pioneer and contributor to the game. <br /><br />Now, as far as Joe Torre goes, he has 4 WS and six pennants; that's HOF manager in any book. Tommy LaSorda, who I absolutely agree is a HOFer, has less. Most of the managers in the HOF have fewer. It is asinine to argue that anyone could manage the Yankees with the money Steinbrenner throws around and still win. The facts prove otherwise, as Boss has been tossing around the bucks for 30 years and the Yankees have never had a run like 1996-present during his tenure. The closest they came was 1976-81 when they took four pennants and two WS titles, then did not win squat again until 1996 despite landing a host of top priced free agents.

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01-14-2005, 08:21 PM
Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>jay, no dummy hoy?<br /><br />where online can one find pcl stats? all i know of o'doul are his mlb stats which are readily available. i know people have been voted in based on their negro league careers, has anyone ever had their pcl stats taken into consideration when voting?

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01-14-2005, 10:29 PM
Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>Absolutely agree on Lefty O'Doul. The only hope is that the Veteran's Committee will make a smart choice when they're not busy elevating their buddies. Slim chance, but it could happen. Better outcome would be the permanent abolition of this committee, which has sullied the Hall over & over.<br /><br /><i>...Tommy LaSorda, who I absolutely agree is a HOFer</i><br /><br />Adam... what??? Did I miss something? 3 WS appearances (1 win) and he's a HOFer? If he goes in, it could only be after Alston. This is a franchise that primarily comes up short. Repeatedly.<br /><br /><i>It is asinine to argue that anyone could manage the Yankees with the money Steinbrenner throws around and still win.</i><br /><br />Then put in GM's Gene Michael and Brian Cashman, because Torre isn't anything special as a game manager. "Do I put Mariano in in the 8th? Okay!" That's his biggest challenge. Boy, I miss the Steve Kemp Yankees Era, when they burned cash & had nothing to show for it.<br /><br /><br />Bill

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01-14-2005, 10:43 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There is no conclusive evidence that Hoy is responsible for the hand signals in the game. Beyond that, he stats don't really warrant it.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-15-2005, 07:32 AM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Alston already is a HOFer...<br /><br />Lasorda is in because of both his record, including his Olympics record, and his goodwill work as a baseball ambassador. I think your numbers are off too--As I recall, he won pennants in 77-78-81-88 and 2 WS. <br /><br />Bill, your Yankee hatred is treatable...Torre does a lot more than just stick in Rivera. He has to manage a lot of egos and a lot of BS in NY and he does it so well that year after year they plug in new pieces and are the team to beat. As you noted, there were a lot of Kemps over the years. The longest stretch the Yankees went w/o a pennant since before Ruth arrived was in the free agency era from 1981-1996.

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01-15-2005, 08:36 AM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I think Joe Torre is an outstanding manager. Is he perfect, of course not, occasionally in the many games I have seen he makes questionable pitching moves. But who doesn't? His record speaks for itself.

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01-15-2005, 05:41 PM
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>Here is a good page about what Lefty did for baseball. Frank<br /><br /><a href="http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/lefty.htm" target=_new>http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/lefty.htm</a>

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01-15-2005, 06:21 PM
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>These are some PCL/ML stats I can piece together on O'Doul<br /><br />1918 pitcher S.F. PCL 12-8<br />1919 pitcher Yankees 0-0<br />1920 pitcher Yankees 0-0<br />1921 pitcher SF PCL 25-9 .338<br />1922 pitcher Yankees 0-0<br />1923 pitcher Red Sox 1-1 sore arm ended pitching<br />1924 OF Salt Lake PCL .392<br />1925 OF Salt Lake PCL .375<br />1926 OF Hollywood PCL . ?<br />1927 OF S.F. PCL . ? MVP<br />1928 OF Giants .319<br />1929 OF Phillies .398 Batting title, 254 hits Most NL ever<br />1930 OF Phillies .383<br />1931 OF Dodgers .336<br />1932 OF Dodgers .368 Batting title<br />1933 OF Dodgers/Giants .284<br />1934 OF Giants .316<br />1935-51 Mgr S.F. PCL<br />

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01-15-2005, 08:19 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Six years in which he played over 100 games. It's just not enough to merit consideration, and I don't count the PCL. The PCL was a minor league, whereas the Negro Leagues pre-Jackie Robinson were for all intents and purposes MAJOR league baseball or at least the equivalent. I guess there is the Sandy Koufax counterargument, but as fine a hitter as O'Doul might have been during his brief tenure noone is claiming he is the greatest hitter of all time or even close whereas the claim of greatest pitcher is made often for Koufax so I would say he may be the one exception to the rule that you need a legitimate 10 year career.

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01-15-2005, 08:19 PM
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>For those further interested in Lefty's career, there is a biography written in 1997 that is still available on Amazon:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1883532035/qid=1105841826/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-0834980-9707036?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" target=_new>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1883532035/qid=1105841826/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-0834980-9707036?v=glance&s=books&n=507846</a><br /><br /><img src="http://www.ettinger.ca/leftyodoul.jpg"><br /><br />Max

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01-15-2005, 08:28 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>PASJD, you need to learn a little more about the PCL in those day. Calling the PCL back then a minor league is a disservice. They were sort like the Negro Leagues in that they were far better than any minor league out there, but just not quite as good as the major leagues.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-15-2005, 08:33 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I would be glad to learn more, but there is a huge difference: PCL players could and did move up to the majors. So if O'Doul was in the PCL not the majors, that must mean he wasn't called up or sought out by big league teams, right? I assume even back then there were scouts, etc. etc. Not at all the same situation as the Negro Leagues where for an African American that was the top of the ladder.

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01-15-2005, 09:11 PM
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Here's the cover photo from an interesting article on the quality of the PCL. Not sure of the exact year (c. 1917). The article has a number of great photos of Buck Weaver, Mike Donlin, Ty Lober, Roy Cohan, Fred Snodgrass, Joe Tinker, Frank Chance, Ping Bodie and others.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.ettinger.ca/titlepagesmall.jpg"><br /><br />The article concludes:<br /><br />"The Pacific Coast League stands as high now as it can stand among the minor leagues, and it is a recognized power among the minors. To grow it must expand to an eight-club organization and that expansion is not many years away. To grow greater still it must attain major league standing. Its rise to that standing is far, far in the future, but it is as certain as the growth of the great Pacific Coast." <br /><br />Something in there for both sides, I guess. <br /><br />Max

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01-15-2005, 09:33 PM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>PASJD, it wasn't a matter of having the ability to play in the majors, it was often about the money. Many players in the PCL were offered more money to stay and play there then go to majors. There were also a number of players that returned to the PCL becuase they got homesick even though they had the talent to stay in the majors. <br /><br />Until I moved to CA and lived there for awhile. I used to just think the PCL was just another minor league. Spending time there and learning more about the league taught me that the PCL was far more than another minor league.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-15-2005, 10:25 PM
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I guess I can see how that long ago the league could be sort of its own entity rather than purely a feeder for the majors, with no major league teams on the West Coast, travel obstacles, etc. On the other hand, from what I know, anyone who was really a superstar in the PCL did make it to the majors, even O'Doul. Do you know why it took him so long to make it up to the bigs?

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01-16-2005, 08:58 AM
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll defer to someone that actually knows the answer, but my understanding is that he had very strong ties back West and prefered to be out there than out East playing in the majors. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-16-2005, 09:18 AM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I am by no means an expert on the PCL but I do know some of its history.<br /><br />First, the PCL as many minor leagues of the day, was not a feeder to the majors like we think of them today. The concept of a farm system was created by Branch Rickey in the 1930's with the Cardinals. The PCL was an independent league during the years when O'Doul was there, meaning that they had to agree to sell the player to the majors. It was not until the depression that the PCL teams desperate to stay afloat entered into a subservient arrangement with the majors. Some teams did have working relations with specific major league teams prior to that. The deal cut both ways: when DiMaggio came up with SF, he was considered a $100,000 sale prospect. He injured his knee and was rapidly devalued and sold for $25,000 to the Yankees. <br /><br />Second, O'Doul was recognized as a really good hitter during his pitching days. Babe Ruth in his autobiography states that he and Huggins discussed converting the then pitcher ODoul into an outfielder but that things never got to that point before the Yankees released him. ODoul tried to make it as a pitcher for a couple of years in the PCL then tore the cover off the ball as a hitter and was brought to the majors. <br /><br />Third, there are a number of players in the HOF who were elected and who were dominant for about 5 years then merely filled time to make up the service requirement. Koufax and Dean come to mind. <br /><br />Lastly, the HOF is a hall of FAME, not a hall of stats. Where a player has raw stats that make him worthy of being remembered, he should be elected. Similarly, where a player/manager/executive has the overall package of service that makes him worthy of remembrance, he should be elected.

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01-16-2005, 10:24 AM
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Before anyone uses Adams line of hall of fame being for fame to help Maris[and i dont know if he was using that to help his case and im not putting words in his mouth] why wouldnt you put Bobby Thompson in the hall of fame before Maris.He was famous 10 years before him but i dont see any push for him to go into the Hall.Lets compare the career stats tho<br /><br />Maris 1463 games 260 avg 275 homers 851 rbis 345 obp 476 slg percent<br />Thompson 1779 270 avg 264 hrs 1026 rbis 332 obp 462 slg <br /><br />Maris 4 time all-star,Thompson 3 times,Maris had 3 100 rbi seasons Thompson had 4[should be noted that Thompson also had another 3 80 rbi seasons while Maris had 1]<br /><br />Very similar players,both above average outfielders known for what they did in NY but played there only half their career.Theres no way you could seperate the 2 with stats to say one is better,altho you could say Thompson had more good seasons.Picking Roger Maris over him wouldnt be based on any good evidence and could only be because somebody assumes since he hit 61 homers one year he mustve had a great career<br /><br />After i said all this,I wouldnt vote Thompson in but if Maris goes in i dont know how you could keep him out and if both of them are going in why not do Thompson first since hes still alive.Put in Maris the next year.<br /><br />I dont mind electing guys who were great for 5 years but should only be used in extreme cases like Koufax or Dean.Maris obviously doesnt qualify in this case either because you cant find 4 great seasons for him.The only problem with electing guys who were great for 5 years and nothing the rest of their career is it sperates them from guys who were great for 5 years but didnt play enough years to qualify for the minimum. Dave Orr was a great slugger of his day,hes 11th all-time in batting and one of the few deadball era players[Brouthers,Delehanty and Thompson are the only others] who cracks the top 100 in slugging all-time which proves how powerful he was.I dont see why you penalize him for having a career ending stroke after his best season.I could go into another pitcher who had 170 wins in a 5 year stretch and didnt play 10 seasons but i wont

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01-17-2005, 07:28 AM
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>O'Doul has both the several years of excellence as a player and the overall contributor record to justify his remembrance. Maris doesn't. He had two great years, a few ok years, then went off into "civilian" life.