'33 WWG Gehrig on ebay

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>Thoughts? <br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5155212910&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5155212910&indexURL=1&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting</a>

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I have no idea if its real, but if it is, it still appears trimmed to me. But I am in no way an expert with respect to alterations, forgeries, etc. That is why I try to stick with graded cards - yes they make mistakes, but probably less often than I would.

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>Yes, it looks trimmed. Also, I don't see any of the characteristic "bleed through" on the back.<br /><br />....But, supposedly there are no WWG reprint sets, meaning this is either real or a forgery, but not a reprint. The trimmed look also indicates forgery rather than reprint.<br /><br />But to be honest, if the back-scan wasn't included, and the cut was cleaner, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference from that scan. That's why I stay away from Goudeys unless I know the seller or can hold it in my hand.<br /><br />Elliot?

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>look at the bottom corners--they show wear on the horizontal but the vertical edges are straight and sharp--never seen natural wear like that on any card.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>having collected this issue for many years and making several large purchases from canada, i would say this card is real and probably not altered or trimmed. the stock which is hard and white on some often gives a funky corner look that at first looks almost too good to be true, while it is not possible to confirm without actually holding the card, if i were putting the set together, i would not be scared to at least give it a chance. to protect yourself i would contact the seller and ask him a few questions and go over his return policy, his feedback looks okay, any red flags will go up immeadiately based on his response to you.<br />

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I've bought and sold quite a few 1933 World Wide Gum Gehrigs in the past year and the card appears to be authentic. There is little question, however, that the card bears significant signs of alteration including one or more edges that are trimmed. I would also not discount the possibility that this particular specimen has been hand-cut from a sheet.<br /><br />Edited to add: 1933 World Wide Gum cards were printed on a soft, clay-based stock.

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>This is the kind of thing this board is really good for...actual information about cards, from experts, that helps the rest of us learn.<br /><br />Thanks Scott and MW

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>At least the auction photo is large. Card is not a reprint. At least not a normal one. Things I look at on Goudey related card..... this Gehrig, the bat head, red "BIG LEAGUE" bar, and brown dirt all extend ever so slightly into the white border. Normal reprints will crop this photo edge area to avoid dots in the white border when reproducing the card. They then add a clean straight (usually too white) border (sometimes too wide because of original photo cropping) and a closely reproduced caption if needed (like on the T206 reprints with wrong font style/color). The only reprints/fakes that usually can fool are the homemade ones made from photos of real cards (inkjet printer specials). <br /><br /><br />Doesnt look trimmed to me, but the corners sure look sharp, but why not graded?????????? I usually dont have my cards graded, but If I had razor sharp Mint stuff like this Gehrig, I would surly have this one graded!!! Thats the only red flag I see, NOT GRADED!<br /><br /> Frank

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>No question of authenticity.<br /><br />Always tough to tell trimming from a scan. I would vote trimmed, the top border looks especially suspicious IMO, but some WWG's do have weird cuts.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>card seems to taper and it doesn't look like parallax error either. Plus the bottom corner wear from the rear looks suspicious, like it was cut down but couldn't cut far enough to remove all wear.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Within this very thread there is disagreement among very knowledgeable people on an ebay item with as good a scan as one could hope for. Several people say probably trimmed, others say they can't tell, an expert collector who specializes in the issue says probably not trimmed, and an expert dealer who has handled many of this exact card says almost certainly altered. So there is nothing even close to a consensus, and I don't have anywhere near the knowledge of most of you so how could I possibly make an accurate judgment. Not that the grading companies have any more reliable knowledge, far from it, but at least if I buy a graded card even if they got it wrong the card has a commodity resale value.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Yes, three cheers for grading companies! There are definate instances in which they serve a purpose.<br /><br />And all of you want them removed from the planet - shame on you.<br /><br />You can always crack it out when you get it for your very own.

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>But it's also probable that many of the posters on this thread COULD make the trimming determination once they held the card, whereas trimmed cards frequently slip by the grading companies. <br /><br />If I owned this card and didn't have guys like Scott, MW and Elliot to consult, I would certainly send it to SGC - I'm too weak in the Goudey/WWG area. You have to know your limitations and not jump head-first into expensive cards until you've done your homework. "I want a Gehrig and have $1,500" isn't a good enough reason to buy.

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Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>response from the seller:<br /><br /><br />I do not have a return or money back policy as it is with all of my auctions. I do not represent anything other than what the item is. If you notice all of my auctions are for ungraded cards. I buy ungraded cards and wax packs. I do not and have never had a card graded. I am, however, very selective in who I buy from. This card was sold to my by a private authorized UD/Topps/Fleer/Donruss dealer who is also an appraiser for insurance companies. He informed me that he had just gotten it from a private collector that he was doing an appraisal for, and knew that I was looking for this card. He bought it for 1,500.00, and as a favor, sold it to me for 1,500.00 because of the volume I did with his store. In speculating, he said it was as fine of a 33 Gehrig as he had seen, and the fact that it was both Canadian and English version (World Wide Gum), that it was even more rare. I have never intended on selling this card, as it took many years to obtain it. However, I an now unemployed.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>what a load of BS. How does an authorized dealer (whatever that means; I wasn't aware that the manufacturers of current crapola authorize anyone to deal in them) of modern garbage carry any credibility in vintage cards? The fact that there is no warranty and that he has a BIN on the card where he will actually lose money on the listing fees and final value fees if the card sells for the $1,500 he says he paid for it makes no sense. Run away!

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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>Do ask for varying amounts of information if you wish to order their products directly. It's all different depending on the card manufacturer -- but usually a photo of your store, sales tax liscence and some other proof is needed before you order direct.<br /><br />Rich

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Yes, Run Away.

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Posted By: <b>jamie</b><p>why is it collectable dealers feel as if they dont have to stand behind their product?

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Posted By: <b>Tim Mayer</b><p>I agree with Adam, it's a dead point I wouldn't buy this card. though I think it's real, I am pretty sure it was hand cut by a right handed person as it looks like it tapers a bit on all sides to the right as if cut bu a righty with an exacto.<br /><br />I would love this card @ 300 bucks trimmed or not not trimmed, but never @ 1500

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Of course, I would never accuse the Babe of having done such a thing , but I recall he and Lou were never close <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />It also disturbs me that the vendor promotes the value because the card is a "Canadian and English version". I hope board members have not been previously confused by the previous postings on other threads of Elliot, Ben or me (or any other Canadians who have not so identified themselves) which may have been in Canadian. I at least will try and communicate in English in the future. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />That said, I will leave this one for Elliot.<br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The story doesn't make sense. If you deal in new crap, are unemployed and need money, I'm gonna sell all my new crap first. I'm not gonna sell a card that I've been looking for and desired for years. And at a loss to boot.<br /><br />That's like me being desperate for money and the first card I offer up for sale is M101 Thorpe. Not gonna happen. It will be the very last card I ever sell. The card may be legit, but the story stinks.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>In the case of a no return policy or a dishonest seller if the card turns out to be bad it's too late. That is exactly my point, this thread shows that based on the best information available over the internet one can't always tell, so it is very risky. On the other hand, because a slabbed card has a commodity value, there is little risk.

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>But I don't consider slabbing a way to protect collectors from disreputable sellers. The red flags this guy is sending out say not to buy from him regardless of the product.<br /><br />If he offered a good return policy, you would be safe buying it, check it out yourself, and NOT have to pay the slab premium.

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>"both Canadian and English"<br /><br />Not sure what he means. Possibly, that the card is a WWG instead of a Goudey. It is true that the WWG's are scarcer than the Goudeys, but this does not translate into higher prices. The English part normally means (on WWG's) that the reverse is English only which is not the case here. The French and English reverse is more common.<br /><br />I also want to reiterate Scott's post that just because people can not tell the trimming from a scan does not mean that they can't tell if a card is trimmed in person, and I don't see any of the grading companies willing to grade and authentic cards from scans.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Scott, the problem with relying on a return policy is that it is worthless if a disreputable seller refuses to honor it or, even worse, if a scammer takes your return and still keeps your money. I would only trust a return policy as a means to protect myself from buying a trimmed card if I knew the seller to be reputable.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Since Ben is in Montreal and Elliot is in Toronto, let's have them them duke it out as to who's the real Canadian.

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>I don't buy from disreputable sellers, graded, non-graded, etc. A disreputable seller, by definition, cannot have a "good" return policy.<br /><br />I know that some of you will say "what about guys with great feedback, who say they have a good return policy, and who are selling un-slabbed cards, and then they screw you anyway by sending a trimmed card and refusing your return?"<br /><br />Hey, I'm not going to live my life being paranoid about events that probably won't happen - enough real **** goes on. I mean, what if you refuse to buy PSA-slabbed cards from because you are afraid you will end up with a $10,000 PSA-9 card that was "slabbed" by WIGWAG in one their borrowed PSA holders? (or whoever it was who got busted).

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I guess the problem is that while I try to buy from sellers who I "know" (ie Ive either bought from them before or recognize them as being someone from this board etc) I am constantly buying from new sources and until the deal is complete, no matter what the feedback says, you can never feel 100% secure that you are dealing with a reputable seller. Slabbed cards take one variable out of the equation.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>Very little in life is 100%. Good luck to you - I'm getting ready to sell some slabbed cards, AND you know me, so "bid often, and with confidence". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Scott -<br /><br />I will gladly bid on anything that peeks my interests without concern. What type of cards will you be selling?

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>As a rule of thumb I do not buy high ticket items from sellers who I do not know (or know of) unless they are local to me, in which case I know I can take it out of their hides in court if they cheat me. Of course, what qualifies as high ticket for me is different than for someone else...<br /><br />That said, I do not believe I would ever buy a high grade pricey card from someone I'd never heard of.

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>I have quite a few nonsports cards made by World Wide Gum in that same time period (Sea Raiders and Jungle Gum). My main concern about the card, as stated early in this thread by runscott, is the lack of "bleedthrough" (actually print from the sheet below). Almost all the World Wide cards seem to exhibit this effect and lack of it, though not conclusive by itself, would be a red flag for me. Goudey's Indian Gum cards of that era show the same effect (not surprising since World Wide and Goudey were owned by the same folks).<br /><br />Chuck Ross

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>Goudey and WWG were NOT owned by the same people, and in any event the cards were printed at different places at a different time. Albeit the obverses were printed from the same plates.<br /><br />Also, my experience has been that there is less bleed through on the WWG's than on the Goudeys. The lack of bleed through on the Gehrig, does not concern me regarding it's autheticity.

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>Elliot: World Wide Gum was formed by Goudey and the stock was owned by the principals of Goudey (source: George C. Thompson, who worked at Goudey from 1931-1962 and was president of Goudey from 2/4/56 until the company was dissolved on 12/26/63). World Wide was incorporated in Massacusetts in May 1933 with Laurence Lombard as president. He resigned in June 1933 and was replaced as president and director by Robert G. Derlin, who concurrently held the position of president of Goudey (until October 1935). So from mid-33 until near the end of 35, World Wide was run by and owned by the same people who owned and ran Goudey.<br /><br />Chuck Ross

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Chuck,<br /><br />I think what Elliot might be referring to is the fact that World Wide Gum, much like other Gum manufacturers (e.g., Topps), employed various printing companies (not owned by them) to produce their cards. In particular, I am aware of a business called Consolidated Lithograph Manufacturing, once located on Partanas Street in Montreal. An employee who worked there sold us 10 uncut sheets of both 1933 and 1934 World Wide Gum cards. I am also aware that some of the other sheets that left this company were later hand-cut into single cards.<br /><br /><a href="http://members.aol.com/bmwcrds/goudeysheet1.jpg">Example 1</a><br /><br /><a href="http://members.aol.com/bmwcrds/goudeysheet2.jpg">Example 2</a>

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p> the the dealers response would make me not bid. if it were real it should be graded.maybe he's afraid it would come back trimmed or fake.not sure if these were ever reprinted???

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>MW (and Elliot): Yes, I agree that World Wide and Goudey cards were not made in the same place. I was just trying to clarify the statement made by Elliot that they were not owned by the same folks. Again, from mid-1933 until late 1935 they were both owned and operated by the same people. As far as the card that started this thread, what I was trying to say was this: The lack of "bleed-through" (or whatever we should call it, since it really comes from another card)doesn't really conclusively prove anything about the card. If the effect was there, that would tend to make me think the card was genuine. <br /><br />Chuck

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>I stated above that the effect was from the card below (in another sheet). I have to admit that I don't know that to be true, so it could be actual "bleed-through" on that card. I guess one would have to delaminate a card and see if there was ink in the middle to answer that. I did a random check of a couple hundred WWG and Goudeys that I have and it appears to affect about 25-30% of the cards for both companies in that particular sample. Again, if I saw the effect in a scan it would tend to make me say "real"...would be a pretty meticulous forger to go that far. Lack of the effect obviously doesn't prove anything either way.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Goudeys have ink on back because the sheets were stacked before ink was dry. The ink on cards would never bleed through the card stock that would be some strong ink, Plus it would be very distorted (far from readable) one blob of ink <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://members.aol.com/canofprimo/overprintb.jpeg"><br /><img src="http://members.aol.com/canofprimo/overprint.jpeg"><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>I think we are all in agreement now:<br /><br />--WWG and Goudey were owned by the same people from 1933 until sometime in the early '40's.<br /><br />--WWG's were printed in a different place than Goudeys, mostly in printing plants not owned by WWG or Goudey.<br /><br />--A large minority percentage of Goudeys and WWG's have bleed-through, in about equal proportion.<br /><br />--Bleed-through normally will indicate authenticity, as nobody is aware of reprints with the bleed-through effect.<br /><br />--Not having bleed-through does not mean the card is not authentic.<br /><br />--Bleed-through was caused by wet sheets being stacked one on top of the other. br /&gt;<br /><br />Does anybody have a card with bleed-through on the reverse that is different from the obverse?

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>Elliot, thanks for the very concise summary. On all the cards I have with this effect, the two sides are a perfect match (as if it was some sort of bleed-through, though that does seem unlikely). If this did come from stacking sheets (which seems more likely), it sure seems that someone in quality control would have altered whichever step of the operation was causing this. Or maybe since it was only 1 cent cards for kids they didn't really care.