The first card PSA ever graded [Archive] - Net54baseball.com Forums

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12-30-2004, 03:45 PM

Posted By: ethan frostthis is a wonderful pre war message board, i just dont get the constant bashing of PSA. the Doyle variation was a horrible mistake and yet somehow SGC gets off the hook fairly easy. Even though a non baseball card collector could tell that it had a letter glued to the card. Everyone who has actually seen the wagner outside of the holder say its not trimmed. The current owner says its fine and that he has gotten offers of over 2 mill for the card. the only reason PSA has so many "mistakes" out there is because they have graded at least 10 times as many cards as anyone else. the Percentages are the same. bashing grading in general, i understand. picking on PSA is childish.

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12-30-2004, 03:59 PM

Posted By: PASJDTo be clearer, I have read on this board and heard other places that the Wagner was trimmed, and it is stated as though it was a matter of "fact" rather than one of speculation and opinion. Having no knowledge myself, I am interested in what the basis for the claim is; can people tell from the appearance of the card; do people "know" first-hand; has PSA acknowledged a "mistake," etc. If this is a repeat of ancient discussions forgive me.

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12-30-2004, 04:02 PM

Posted By: Joe_G.I agree there is more than a fair share of PSA (and others) bashing. However, the comment that PSA should have more mistakes because they've graded 10 times more isn't entirely true. For instance, SGC has actually graded more Old Judges than PSA. When it comes to vintage items, 19th century in particular, SGC is well represented.

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12-30-2004, 04:04 PM

Posted By: ethan frostMastro says it was real, the current owner says its real, PSA says its real. the card keeps breaking price records everytime it goes up for auction. thats good enough for me.

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12-30-2004, 04:08 PM

Posted By: Juliefrom 4 experts, the whole gory story. None of them are ready to put it in print. Guess that says something...I am NOT an expert, nor do I buy graded cards. Sure would like to line it up against some T206 commons...

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12-30-2004, 04:08 PM

Posted By: ethan frostJoe, SGC is a wonderful company, i collect cuban cards and actually prefer them over PSA for those issues. its just that the bashing gets old

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12-30-2004, 04:14 PM

Posted By: PASJDWell one would not expect the current owner or PSA to say the card was trimmed, so I don't find that persuasive one way or the other. Perhaps others with knowledge, or the poster making the claim (that is how I interpret her claim anyway, I assume the Wagner is the "first card PSA ever graded," and I assume she is referring to the rumors that it was trimmed) will come forward with facts.

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12-30-2004, 04:15 PM

Posted By: JulieI meant to add my comment to the "Mistakes were made" thread, but couldn't find it. It's there. I didn't think the topic warrented a whole thread, at least not from my point of view.

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12-30-2004, 04:17 PM

Posted By: PASJDJulie are these "reluctant experts" expressing opinions based on the appearance of the card, or do they claim to have actual knowledge.

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12-30-2004, 04:18 PM

Posted By: MW

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12-30-2004, 04:27 PM

Posted By: HWMW, well said. The same can probably be said for the memorabilia authenticators also.

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12-30-2004, 04:28 PM

Posted By: Bruce BabcockI know nothing about the PSA 8 Wagner other than the rumors that have been referred to over the years, and alluded to here. However, I have heard of grading companies rejecting cards as "altered" which do not exhibit "minimum thickness." Allegedly, cards can be compressed under pressure, which increases the over dimensions slightly. Then the card is trimmed down to the normal size. Presumably the grading companies would detect such minute variations in thickness by using a digital caliper. A relatively inexpensive precision caliper is accurate to 1/1000 of an inch. I would have thought that such compression would "spread" the surface of the card so that the gloss on a high end card would be disturbed.

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12-30-2004, 04:42 PM

Posted By: Judge DredPSA, SGC, GAI, et al all have their fair share of mistakes and headaches. I'm an equal opportunity grading service scrutinizer, I don't discriminate against any service - I call it like I see it and I don't need a third party grading service to tell me the condition of a card. "Subjectivity" - Even if everybody were to follow some type of grading standard there would still be a huge difference in one persons view of EXMT and another persons view of EXMT. No, grading services are not infallible but it sure would be nice if the grading services used some of their profits to reinvest in a better quality control system or it would be nice if there was a little more uniformity in the understanding of all the graders interpretation of the grading system that they employ.

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12-30-2004, 04:51 PM

Posted By: HWThe subjectivity of card grading is obviously a concern. In my personal collection, I keep an inventory with the item's grade among other things. I have often looked at an item in my collecton and can not believe that I once graded it "Excellent" when it is now looks "Excellent to Mint" (or vice versa) It is hard for me (one person) to be consistent. It has to real difficult for the grading companies if they employ large staffs. I have also received items from well respected dealers and auction houses that were overgraded one time and undergraded another (in my opinin) from the same company. At the end of the day, I try to look at a slabbed grade or a letter of authenticity as my first step in evaluating an item. At the end of the day, I have to be comfortable with an item for it to be in my collection, no matter what anyone else says.

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12-30-2004, 05:20 PM

Posted By: warshawlawas I have received in the mail today yet another PSA holder that could not stand up to the "rigors" of being shipped in a padded bubble mailer without cracking. What a P-O-S holder! I have never had a problem with damage to an SGC holder in the mail.

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12-30-2004, 06:59 PM

Posted By: Julie(only one saw it "before"); interviews with the numebr 2 and number 4 owners (before and after), and descriptions of the "before" card; the words of the person responisble for the altering, who was "a good friend," and 4) the absolute incredibility of the very first card a grading company grades being a PSA 8 T206 Wagner! One of these experts, who posts on this board, had a long, explicit story to tell...one of the more memorable lines from which was "You have GOT to make this sale stick!"

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12-30-2004, 07:10 PM

Posted By: Mike PolandNo not the wagner...but this, <a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html" target=_new>http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_2.html</a>

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12-30-2004, 07:31 PM

Posted By: DD.

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12-30-2004, 08:06 PM

Posted By: Julieand the discussion contains much of what I had aleady been told.

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12-30-2004, 08:09 PM

Posted By: Mike PolandWhen I said, no not the wagner...I was just making a play on words in regard to the subject line of "A little something to add to the fire"...as in not adding the wagner card in a literal fire but adding a link to the proverbial fire in regard to the discussion.

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12-30-2004, 09:14 PM

Posted By: PASJDNot to fault the poster, but the information on that link was pretty thin, it didn't seem to amount to any more than rumors and speculation that were denied. It seems to me as a deductive matter that either the rumors are false, or that there are people who know the truth but they do not wish to go public with their knowledge, whether as a result of a "conspiracy of silence" or for other reasons. Well I had hoped to learn more, perhaps I will some day. It would certainly be disheartening to me if the most significant card that has ever been slabbed was trimmed. From such an auspicious beginning it doesn't seem much good can follow.

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12-30-2004, 11:20 PM

Posted By: J LevineThe last time the National was in Anaheim, I was there with a few experts and friends and got to hold the PSA 8 Wagner (among others)...A good friend of mine grabbed two t-206 commons I was holding and we compared size to the Wagner. I was there, I have first hand knowledge. I will tell you this, the card did not measure up. It was a great trim job. I mean great...it was hard to tell but easy to see when the cards were placed on top of it. As I recall, the Wagner was not taken out after that because the owner at the time nearly had a cow when he saw what we were doing. In my opinion it was trimmed. Not easily noticeable but I feel that it was...I am not an expert in t-206s but have seen my share. My two cents... Joshua

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12-31-2004, 08:28 AM

Posted By: ScottCard-slabbing is a part of the hobby that isn't going away - so we discuss problems (giving examples when we find them) and suggest solutions. SGC and PSA both get "bashed" on this board - the main difference is how each responds. SGC seems to welcome criticism and suggestions, which is why many of us use them when we slab cards.

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12-31-2004, 08:42 AM

Posted By: leonWhat Julie said. I know several experts that have told me they have personally seen before and after of the card. It's a great card and the newest/current owner went on the old board and expressed his opinion and was very eloquent in the matter. At the end of the day it's almost not about "the" card but what it represents. He goes to schools to show children the card and otherwise does a lot of good charitable stuff, if I remember correctly, which is good for the hobby. As for all of the other rhetoric here about bashing PSA, SGC etc......they all will get scrutinized and get what they deserve. Personally I think both do a decent job but I just trust SGC more....as I know and respect them. regards all

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12-31-2004, 09:01 AM

Posted By: qualitycards.com"it was hard to tell but easy to see when the cards were placed on top of it." I have a small stack of beat up F/G T206's and it seems that no 2 are alike in size, and I doub't anyone trimmed my Orval Overall. So stacking a T206 card at random on top of the Wagner may not be the perfect indicator if its been trimmed or not. To see the edges would help, but thats very hard once a card has been slabbed.

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12-31-2004, 09:10 AM

Posted By: MWI agree with Leon that the current owner has done a lot of positive things with the card.

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12-31-2004, 09:15 AM

Posted By: PASJDTo me, MW's personal observation that the card "definitely" looked different is quite powerful and disturbing and the most directly relevant thing I have seen posted yet. In a sense I agree with Leon that at this point it almost doesn't matter, the card has a life of its own as an icon whether it is trimmed or not, but on the other hand, what does it say about PSA if they made a mistake (and I will assume for argument's sake it was an innocent mistake) right off the bat with a card of that magnitude?

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12-31-2004, 09:35 AM

Posted By: Juliea comparison of size (I was amazed at the earlier post in which someone said he had actually compared the size of the Wagner to some commons--and the Wagner didn't measure up!), and , more subtly, the edges. A 100-year-old card will generally taper to the edge, especially at the corners. Most dealers routinely check the edges of T206s in this way....pretty hard with an encapsulated card, huh? Was PSA born to hide the edges of a trimmed card? It may be the hobby and it may be the card of all time, but if anyone ever has the guts to prove it is a trinmmed card,. everyone will acknowledge that an enormous fraud has been perpetrated. Even if the present owner is Mother Teresa.

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12-31-2004, 07:23 PM

Posted By: dan mckeeThe Wagner and several other high grade T206s were on display at the PSA booth at a national several years ago. 90% of the display including the Wagner were trimmed. The difference is, PSA first refused the card as trimmed as they should have. But after convincing, they slabbed it. The person that persuaded PSA to slab it and the current owner wouldn't admit it is trimmed even if it were cut in half. SGC made a mistake, they immediately offered to pay Alan what he bought it for. There is your difference, customer service and making a wrong, right, not making a right, wrong. All grading gets bashed here, PSA more than SGC because of the material we collect here. SGC is by far more knowledgable in the pre-war market than PSA.

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12-31-2004, 07:32 PM

Posted By: PASJDWithout naming names, is the person who convinced PSA to slab the card the same person responsible for trimming it? Seems a reasonable enough inference.

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12-31-2004, 07:33 PM

Posted By: JulieThe corners, the perfect coloring...I felt like I was looking at something created and preserved in--one of those bubbles that they keep people with no immune systems in. We know that can't be true. The blasted hypnotic card--made me want to scream and run!

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12-31-2004, 09:31 PM

Posted By: Judge DredThere has been a lot of credible information provided by many sources about "that" Wagner and the sad part is that so many people want to believe so many different things that the truth has become very distorted and unfortunately the truth may not come to light for many years (or ever). I realize that this thread is dedicated to "that" Wagner card but is it ok to bring in two more words to this thread: "HARRIS COLLECTION" I don't want to stir the pot but isn't there some link of commonality between "that" Wagner and SOME of "those other cards?" Perhaps not as related to this thread.

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12-31-2004, 10:25 PM

Posted By: warshawlawWhy is the very first card PSA ever slabbed the PSA 8 Wagner? And how did they develop the expertise to authenticate and grade it, since it was their first? And how many times have we criticized "old" PSA cards (the ones with the labels that have the funny typeface "0") as being inaccurately graded?

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12-31-2004, 10:30 PM

Posted By: martyI am a little confussed. This Wagner card has the cert #1, but I do not believe that it was the first card that PSA graded. What was the first card graded? I thought that the first cards graded were Hall's. He did not own the Wagner. Like some others here, I have seen a picture of this card prior to PSA ever seeing it. I have not had a close up inspection of the card, just through the display case.

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12-31-2004, 10:37 PM

Posted By: hankronI think Adam's suggesting they should have practiced first on a few 1988 Fleer Jim Ganters or a 1987 Topps Tommy Lasorda to get the kinks out.

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12-31-2004, 10:49 PM

Posted By: JulieAnd that's the truth...

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12-31-2004, 11:02 PM

Posted By: Ethan FrostThe Wagner is not the first graded card by PSA. the whole thing about the Wagner being trimmed is pointless any grading company would gladly grade this card! the card might as well always been real at this point. My point was that the bashing of PSA really seems vicious on this board. PSA made graded cards what they are today, they invented the registry and they are the ones that bring the highest prices. what credentials do SGC have that PSA doesnt? If PSA were to down tomorrow SGC would not be first the #1 company nor would gai, the whole graded concept would die with them. its freaking late and i am so wasted i might have to edit the living bejesus of this post, my whole point is that this would be a better board if the members here didnt post such negative crap all the time, thats all

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12-31-2004, 11:26 PM

Posted By: Julie<img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/N28Caru.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/Cobbgf.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/FClajoie.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/K162.jpg"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/N162Keef.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/OjSM.JPG">

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01-01-2005, 01:13 AM

Posted By: jay behrensEthan, the slabbing business will survive just fine if PSA closes shop. All that statement proves is that you are blindly loyal to PSA. Others who are more knowledgable can tell you why SGC has better credentials than PSA when comes to grading vintage cards. Jay Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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01-01-2005, 09:50 AM

Posted By: JuliePSA graded (if you want to cop out of ANYTHING you said last night, please feel free, but otherwise): why is it cert #1, and what was graded before, and when?

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01-01-2005, 10:20 AM

Posted By: davidthe wagner was not the first card psa ever graded. they had been around for several years before grading the wagner. they gave the card the #1 serial number because of the fanfare associated with the card.

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01-01-2005, 10:21 AM

Posted By: ScottBut give Ethan credit for saying exactly what he thinks - I do agree with him that at this point the PSA-slabbed Wagner might as well be considered original. It is not in the best interest of PSA or the current owner to think otherwise. I also agree with Ethan that GAI or SGC would love to grade that Wagner - I just don't think the results would be the same...at least with SGC.

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01-01-2005, 10:23 AM

Posted By: leonNothing personal but "ignorance is bliss"......take care

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01-01-2005, 11:52 AM

Posted By: Julieand I will try to get the person who told it to me to post about it...may be futile, but I'll try.

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01-01-2005, 01:28 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsI really don't think SGC or GAI would "want" to grade that bogus Wagner! Afterall, didn't SGC not grade any T206 Wagners at all for a certain period of time????? People can say what they want as to why, but it was b/c they did not want a huge liability for a mistake the size of PSA's slabbing that particular card.

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01-01-2005, 01:53 PM

Posted By: MWEthan & david, You are mistaken. The PSA 8 T206 Wagner was the very first card graded by that company. David Hall himself has verified this to be true: "This card was the first card ever graded by PSA. We gave it certification #1 in 1991." Link - <a href="http://www.collectors.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3093" target=_new>http://www.collectors.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3093</a>

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01-01-2005, 03:32 PM

Posted By: Greg EcklundWas there ever any controversy over David Hall's handling of his own collection with regards to his company? Having your collection graded by a company you run and having that particular '52 Topps Mantle happen to come up a "10" seems incredibly shady to me. If I recall correctly, many of Hall's cards ended up being of the "highest grade ever" variety. If I'm not understanding this correctly I would appreciate it if someone enlightened me.

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01-01-2005, 03:57 PM

Posted By: PASJDI wonder what the Tiger Woods card that sold for $125,000 is worth today. I'll take the under. The SI for Kids cards were torn from perforated sheets too, so it strikes me that a "10" is just completely arbitrary.

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01-01-2005, 03:58 PM

Posted By: CyScott Elkins, If I remember correctly, we had this discussion a while back and you stated that you had upcoming irrefutable proof that the Wagner card was trimmed. That was a long time ago. Do you have this irrefutable proof? Cy

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01-01-2005, 05:48 PM

Posted By: Chuck Ross<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4240&item=5152035184&rd=1" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4240&item=5152035184&rd=1</a> So, if I pick this one up for $500, can I turn it around for $125,000? I need to find that buyer so I can quit my day job

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01-01-2005, 09:33 PM

Posted By: hankronI never understood in the first place why anyone would want to pay $1 million for a baseball card or $125K for a Tiger Woods or $100,000 for a Mickey Mantle. If someone has the collecting budget and burning desire to drop six or seven figures on a professionally graded trading card, I'll let him worry about whether this or that edge is funky or a 10 should be a 9. Call me silly, but I don't see how any Mint card should be worth 30 or 50 or whatever times more than the Near Mint version unless it was signed by Walter Johnson or the cast of Leave it to Beaver. So when I see a multi-millionaire paying an extra $95,000 so he could get a 10 instead of a 7 on the label above his card, it's not a scene from The English Patient for me.

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01-01-2005, 09:35 PM

Posted By: ScottWhy is that? ...because there is no danger whatsoever that the card will ever be de-slabbed. If such a danger had ever existed, Honus wouldn't have been put behind plastic to begin with. Okay, I guess it's possible that someone on this board could win the lottery, pay double value for the card, break it out and send it to SGC. But that's not going to happen, so we'll never know how SGC would react to receiving that package. ...but IF they elected to grade it, they would be considered "experts" if taken to court by the disappointed customer. The only reason they would have to fear any liability would be if they couldn't prove that they possessed the skills/equipment to make a grading determination for a card of this value. Hey, this ties back to what I was asking about previously, doesn't it? But we don't care about these issues - the "Big 3" are experts and asking these types of questions is a symptom of "paranoia" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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01-01-2005, 09:47 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsFirst of all Runscott - I actually agree with you - if every future owner of the Wagner is like the present owner, then PSA will never have anything to worry about. Cy - I am not even going back to the Wagner discussion!!!!! Truth is, I had several files on the Wagner with tons of evidence at one time. Had the "conflict" with Mastronet and they suspended me from bidding in their auctions b/c of my comments on the Wagner. When I auctioned off my T207 Redcross Blackburne through Mastronet, I kinda burned the bridge with them over the Wagner and am not even going back to that too lengthy discussion! All I can tell you about the Wagner being trimmed is to go to T206museum and look for yourself! If you can't tell from the corner images shown on that website that the card is trimmed, you better not buy NM ungraded cards on eBay!!!!!!

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01-01-2005, 09:59 PM

Posted By: Scottthen, by golly, it must be gospel truth.

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01-01-2005, 11:41 PM

Posted By: Scott ElkinsI NEVER said anything about the Wagner was "published" on the T206museum site (although they do have a small article about the trimming). What I was referring to were the pics. of the card's corners! Please read correctly before you insert your foot into that mouth of yours and completely try and turn around my posts (which you always TRY and do, but do not succeed). Also, if you can't tell by looking at the several photos from that website and even the catalog the card was auctioned in, that it is trimmed, then maybe people should never bid on any card you have up for auction b/c there could be a possibility you could not tell it was trimmed!?!?

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01-01-2005, 11:45 PM

Posted By: honus3415Is it just me.....or does it seem really foolish to trust thousands and even hundreds of thousands of dollars to plastic? First my thought on the Wagner. I would think that for security reasons a "body double" would be submitted in it's place, afterall isn't that a common procedure by museums with art masterpieces? NOW as for plastic cases in general. WHAT ARE WE THINKING????? These are just plastic cases with a paper label and our precious card inside. Could someone please explain to me how no one "COULD POSSIBLY " get their hands on an usable open one (used, new or reproduced) and repackage a card? Has any of these companies even come close to instilling a trust\confidence in their product? Well with that in mind....how well do they keep track of the little things like their inventory of plastic cases? And are they ever audited? Have any ever been missing? In the card world, our plastic cases have turned cardboard into legal tender....yet with 1/1000th the security!!! I'm not accusing anyone of anything....but I just can't help but think what someone somewhere with enough motivation could do. No motivation or too expensive you say??? Not since as few as 10-20 well-placed "body doubles" could possibly net someone a couple hundred thousand. And all because we whole-heartedly trust those plastic holders and the little paper label inside. "IN PLASTIC WE TRUST" or "A FOOL AND HIS MONEY"? Can't decide my motto for 2005. Hopes for 2005....The "priceless" Price Guide and the "gradeless" Grading Company....but those are a different thread.

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01-02-2005, 06:10 AM

Posted By: runscottI always read your posts and I enjoy them thoroughly.

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01-02-2005, 06:45 AM

Posted By: runscott...at least not with the "big 3". If you held in your hand a slab that had been cracked and glued back together, I think you would be able to tell it.

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01-02-2005, 06:57 AM

Posted By: ChrisI couldn't agree more David. I have never understood that either. Give me a 7 over a 9 anyday and most of the time giove me a 6 over a 7. For my $ anyway.

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01-02-2005, 07:06 AM

Posted By: dennisi also agree an ex/mt ex or vg on a prewar card is a really nice and it lets you buy more if you are on a budget....but to some money is no object, i think if i had $$$ i'd still feel this way.

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01-02-2005, 08:27 AM

Posted By: leonI had a great little answer but was completely off topic

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01-02-2005, 10:15 AM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthPSA has had their holders compromised in a big way. The body double concept happened alright it was posted about on the CU board and the SGC board extensively for a year and a half period and is still brought up for time to time.

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01-02-2005, 10:20 AM

Posted By: PASJD<a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3741.chtml" target=_new>http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3741.chtml</a>

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01-02-2005, 10:39 AM

Posted By: Opportunitymissed---never occurred to me I could put a lesser card in and reseal it. Too much work...

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01-02-2005, 12:31 PM

Posted By: ScottI realize that we discussed this previously, but my understanding was that someone had gotten hold of labels and plastic, and had basically "graded" their own cards.

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01-02-2005, 12:35 PM

Posted By: Scott...it also doesn't shed any light on whether or not cards seals were being broken, or someone was slabbing with previously unused materials. I still think the latter is the case, but it would be good to hear someone clear this up. It sounds like Greg has some information on this.

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01-02-2005, 12:39 PM

Posted By: PASJDMy understanding is that they had their own plastic but not their own labels. So they would take a card, crack it out of the PSA holder, put an inferior card plus the PSA label into one of their own holders and seal it and sell it, and then resubmit the original card itself to PSA, and so on.

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01-02-2005, 12:48 PM

Posted By: ScottThanks. I just didn't want people thinking that cracking slabs and re-sealing them was likely - a lot of new collectors read this board and believe everything we post. I have cracked cards and occasionally ended up with two decent-looking slab halves - scans would look fine, I'm sure, but if you view the slab from the side it's easy to tell it's been "stressed out". It's possible that someone has done this and gotten away with it, but I would have to see examples to believe it.

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01-02-2005, 01:41 PM

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthHappy New Year Scott. As Mike Wentz knows I was very involved in trying to alert collectors to what had transpired. I posted regualarly on SGC's board as well as the Yahoo board under their finance section for CLCT (PSA's ticker symbol). You are correct that the information that PASJD posted is vague at best but then again this was PSA's official release on the subject. I am currently involved as a key witness for the plaintiffs in a large civil case that is pending against CU and Joe Orlando so I cannot comment on what more I know about the crime until after I have testified, 2 weeks from now. I will provide you with 3 links to what I feel is an informative post that I made. Certainly there are others I made on the Yahoo forum and on SGC's that may be more editorial but you may also find informative. As a side note, I make some negative references to someone by the name of Dan Markel, who is a strong supporter of PSA. He and I got into it (I know shocking that I would argue with anyone) but we have since settled our differences and moved well beyond this. <A HREF="http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1600465545&tid=clct&sid=1600465545&mid=2718">Link 1.</A> <A HREF="http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1600465545&tid=clct&sid=1600465545&mid=2719">Link 2.</A> <A HREF="http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=1600465545&tid=clct&sid=1600465545&mid=2721">Link 3.</A>

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01-02-2005, 04:12 PM

Posted By: Julieit might not be PSA's fault, huh?

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01-03-2005, 06:02 AM

Posted By: Scottof course I didn't know that much of it, but the part about finding empty, unused holders at WIWAG was discussed previously. Naturally, PSA would prefer that the public think WIWAG was cracking cases;otherwise, customers start wondering "how did WIWAG get those holders?" But these are likely things we'll never know.

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01-03-2005, 10:38 AM

Posted By: ScottScott Elkins - I debated posting this, for one main reason - I really DO enjoy reading your posts as they are obviously completely un-edited and so they really give us a feel for you passion for card-collecting. And it is very rare that I get "angry" over one of your posts - normally I see a little humor in them and my responses are not intended to generate any anger on your part, and I don't think they normally have that result. However, I don't think it's responsible to post accusations that have no evidence behind them, or to post personal email correspondence. I've learned the hard way that this type of thing comes back to bite you - based on your fiasco with the e95 forgery you sold as real, and the resulting beating you took on the old board and this one, you should also have the experience to know better. In light of that episode, telling people not to buy my cards because I don't agree that a fuzzy scan posted by t206museum indicates positive proof of trimming, is quite irresponsible of you. I waited for you to either edit your post or retract your comments, but since you didn't, I felt compelled to post a rebuttal. And, no, I won't suggest that your customers avoid you because you can't tell the difference between a forged e95 and a real one, even though the evidence is there to support it.