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12-28-2004, 01:47 AM
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>For all those interested here is some of the research that I have done on the backs of T-205s...this research is done by me alone and may contain errors, omissions, etc. That being said, I do feel it is fairly accurate and an interesting piece of info. (at least for T-205 collectors and myself).<br /><br />T-205 Breakdown for 2004:<br /><br />This is my yearly breakdown of back frequency on the T-205 Gold Border set. This year, I have broken it down a little further including factory designations. This continues my quest to figure out how they were printed (incl. how many on a sheet, and how many different printing there were). It is also an examination of the rarity of the backs and how they relate to prices, scarcity, etc.<br /><br />The following includes backs from shows, e-bay, other online/phone/mail auctions, internet sales sites, and collectors. Granted, this is but a small cross-section but taken over the years I feel it is pretty accurate. At the end of the yearly notes is the compilation of the last several years work with the breakdowns. Also some interesting notes on scarcity and rarer cards. As an aside, this was a big year for T-205s as they seemed to have a resurgence in popularity. Many more were seen this year.<br /><br />2004 T-205s seen by scarcity order from least to most. Factory codes are only listed for cards that have different factory codes.<br /><br />Advertiser Color Fact. Code # of cards seen %Total<br />Piedmont Blue25 68618.7<br />Polar Bear Blue 60116.4<br />Sweet Cap. Red 51314.0<br />Sweet Cap. Black25 37810.3<br />Hassan Green649 3599.8<br />Sweet Cap. Black42 3439.3<br />Honest Long CutBlack 2817.7<br />Cycle Black 1905.2<br />Sovereign Green 1754.8<br />Hassan Green30 982.7<br />American Beauty Black 13.35<br />American BeautyGreen 9.25<br />Piedmont Blue42 7.19<br />Broadleaf Black 6.16<br />Broadleaf Green 6.16<br />Hindu Brown 3.08<br />Drum Brown 1.03<br /><br /><br />Total 205s taken for this research:3669<br /><br /><br /><br />As you can see, the break down is fairly interesting. Price guides still insist putting a premium on Polar Bear backs. For years, I have said this should not be the case. I also do not feel that a premium should be placed on the color of the backs of the American Beauty and Broadleaf backs. They are very close and I feel that they probably have the same population reports.<br /><br />I also noticed that a few small hoards seemed to have moved some of the scarcities around. There were a lot of Cycle cards listed this year on e-bay. Usually Cycle falls below the Sovereign and Hassan Fact. 30 on my list (it has for the last 3 years). <br /><br />Joss was seen with a Cycle back this year by me for the first time. This helps me in that I had a few holes with the Cycle printing (which I think was one of the first). I always felt that the Cycle printing was shorter and only printed once. Meaning no substitutions. I feel that Piedmont, Polar Bear, and Hassan were all printed more than once using substitutions that have created the short prints/variations/errors. <br /><br />The Gray w/ stats only seems to be printed with Sovereign. I have not seen a Gray without stats with a Sovereign back. This makes me wonder if Sovereign was printed later. <br /><br />The Moran w/ stray line is rarer than we once thought. I still feel it is rare but it was on a later Polar Bear printing and I feel that it is about the same as the two Wilhelm variations. <br /><br />The two Wilhelm variations are from two distinct printings, Hassan and Piedmont. I think they are fairly rare since they only seem to occur with one back advertisement for each.<br /><br />I have been charting which cards come with which backs (any help here would be greatódrop me a line with a list of players and what backs they appear with). <br /><br />Granted, all this is speculation but I do feel I am getting closer on how the cards were printed and how many different printing there were.<br /><br />Below is the totals for the past few years (five incl. this year). <br /><br />Advertiser Color Fact. Code# of cards seen %Total<br />Piedmont Blue25344317.4<br />Polar Bear Blue288914.6<br />Sweet Cap. Red277614.0<br />Sweet Cap. Black25222411.2<br />Hassan Green649200710.1<br />Sweet Cap. Black4219199.7<br />Honest Long CutBlack14507.3<br />Sovereign Green9754.9<br />Cycle Black9524.8<br />Hassan Green309474.8<br />American Beauty Black 78.39<br />American BeautyGreen 55.28<br />Piedmont Blue42 39.20<br />Broadleaf Green 24.12<br />Broadleaf Black 23.12<br />Hindu Brown 11.05<br />Drum Brown 6.03<br /><br /><br />Total 205s taken for this research:19818<br /><br /><br />As you can see, the %ís did not change all that much. Cycle did drop in down in the scarcity order and the Broadleafs flip-flopped but that does not seem significant. I also understand that cards are sold and resold all the time...I actually have a small database for the rarer backs including player, back, and condition so the more common backs are probably skewed higher (but not that much). <br /><br />You may take all this research as nothing more than my opinions. It is put out there for my enjoyment and to help further the knowledge of the hobby. <br />

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12-28-2004, 07:54 AM
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Great research!!<br /><br />Thanks!!

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12-28-2004, 08:53 AM
Posted By: <b>Scott M</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />Great work... I'll have to go check all of my near set to see how the percentages come out with yours but, in the meantime, I can add a back variation to what you have for Dolly Gray...<br /><br /><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~phlflyer1/baseball/misc/Gray_Stats.JPG"><br /><br /><br />Scott

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12-28-2004, 09:05 AM
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Good to see the 2 colors of broadleaf recognized.

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12-28-2004, 09:21 AM
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Someone needs to provide this information to Bob Lemke, as it would make GREAT information in the Catalog.<br /><br />20,000 cards is a pretty large sample size for accuracy sake.

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12-28-2004, 12:53 PM
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Scott,<br />That Gray w/ stats Piedmont back really helps...I always suspected that there must be a variation like that. I thought that the Sovereign Gray w/ stats was printed in one of the last printings and I thought that Cycle (and possibly American Beauty/Broadleaf) might have a Gray w/ stats...this seems like a neverending process for me but it does keep me busy.<br />-Joshua

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12-28-2004, 01:35 PM
Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>Is it everyones experience that American Beauty backs are that difficult to come by? I actually bought a PSA 4 Phillippe with a green American Beauty back about 6 months ago for $40. I thought it was a pretty good deal at the time. This would lead me to believe it was a little better deal than I thought. Great work Josh.

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12-28-2004, 03:17 PM
Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>They are tough...not horribly tough but tough. They show up less often than American Beauty t-206s and $40 was a great price (IMHO). There are bargains out there still...I picked up a Cycle back t-205 in vg for $5 at a show not too long ago (used it to upgrade even).<br /><br />I do feel that there are more American Beauty backs around but they tend to change hands a less. The set registry is something I can not use because I prefer to see a scan of the card to actually verify authenticity and fact. #. Otherwise, I think I would have more data.<br /><br />-Joshua