Attention collectors: caramel card mess on ebay

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>This one just plain bites. Will Hays (sandygowill) had a number of cards on ebay last week, specifically some E94s and 98s, and carefully pointed out VERY CLEARLY that the cards were trimmed and to bid accordingly. I noticed a bidder named pgatourace running the bids way up and couldn't quite figure out why. Now, a little over a week later he has the exact same cards on ebay with high opening bids, big BINs and NOT ONE WORD about their being trimmed. The cards are described as being "exmt" and "ex+" etc. They are flat out trimmed and the seller knows it. Look at the top edge of the Mack E98 and the entire Jennings E98. The E94 McGraw is also short. The cards have a lot of eye appeal but it is just frigging wrong that he does not mention one word about the trimming or alteration even though he won the cards under those descriptions and knows they are altered. <br />I hope I am not stepping on someone who is a poster here, but regardless, shame on you!<br />COMPARE THE 2 DESCRIPTIONS<br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5150454734&rd=1" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5150454734&rd=1</a><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5144967871&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86841&item=5144967871&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW</a><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I know there is one particular forum member who must have a light case load and is currently eager to sue someone. May want to let him know. Until then, it would not hurt to let the guy know that you know what he is up to. <br /><br />Thanks for the heads up.

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>tbob,<br /><br />He shows the Square Trade logo in his ad. eBay may actually do something about this one because of that. Can't hurt to contact them.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>He has sold trimmed cards before. Guess this is how he tries to make a living. Be careful on pre war, email a friend or anyone can drop me a line for a second look opinion. I enjoy the hobby and am always willing to help if I can. I had a couple hundred caramels in the past and have a pretty good idea of sizes.<br /><br /><br />In todays times ,unless you know the person that you are dealing with or it is not graded...something is usually wrong somewhere. Happy Holidays<br />

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>You know there is a real difference between a guy selling cards which appear trimmed on ebay who does it either unknowingly, innocently or even perhaps negligently and this where the seller just bought the cards knowing full well they were altered because the original seller TOLD HIM THEY WERE along with all other potential bidders. <br />This reeks...

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Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>That guy was a really good customer of mine for awhile, then he bounced a $700+ check on me. He kept giving me excuses saying that he was going to pay me back, but it has been over a year and he quit responding to my e-mails. <br /><br />If anybody wants to win something from him, tell him that you are buying it with my credit and I will split it with you!<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>I asked him a question about his e107 Thoney and I got this, "This automatic response confirms that your message was received. We at PGATourAce Auctions strive to reply to all questions, concerns or other issue as timely as possible. Your continued patronage remains highly appreciated. Thank you."<br /><br />Still no answer, though.

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Posted By: <b>Bryan</b><p>But I have never bought from him. I never had a problem with getting my money. This is all I know about him.

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>The interesting thing is, he thinks he is being so smart but how many people saw those cards listed previously and will now never trust buying ANYTHING from him. You can put me in that category.

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>...and is also from my home town I'm embarrassed to say. I used to buy things from him every now and then, but won't in the future.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>This type of information makes this board very valuable. TBob, nice catch!!! Should we start calling you EBob?

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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>&lt;&lt;I don't believe this card is trimmed. I would not have bid on it if I did. The only ones I bid on that I believe are definitely trimmed are the (3) 1910 American Caramel Set C cards. They are cut very awkwardly. The other cards were not identified as trimmed. Read Will Hays' ad on those cards. He says he'd go "so far to say that every card is altered or colored in some way." Then on the specific card offered, he doesn't mention trimming at all. And the card measures perfectly. If there was an alteration here, it wasn't a trim. I only bid on the ones I felt were untrimmed. Mr. Hays only said that he believed all cards were altered. They may be, but they certainly were not all trimmed. The 1910 American Caramel Set C cards are definitely trimmed. The others measure out correctly. I would've listed them as trimmed if they had not measured correctly upon receipt. Again, this card was not identified as trimmed, only listed among a group of possibly trimmed and altered.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Not sure how true this is, but a few of the cards seem trimmed to me.

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Posted By: <b>Bryan</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>three25hits</b><p>They will not grade is my guess, otherwise the would have been listed in slabs by the original seller. My guess: some of these cards have made more than 1 trip to PSA and/or SGC...

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>The original ad also states: "(not in a devious way, but most likely, guaging by where I got these, they were cut to fit into those old plastic sheets of the early 1970s - vintage trimming)".<br /><br />Seems clear to me they were trimmed.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Will Hays is a reputable dealer/seller of material. He has two things to consider when he is selling something consigned to him:<br /><br />1) He would like to be as honest as possible about the material he is selling.<br /><br />2) He would like to bring as much money to his consignor as possible.<br /><br />For these two reasons I couldn't imagine that Will Hays would have written an item description about a selection of cards where the "blanket" description did not apply. I would venture to guess that Will Hays would not have placed this particular card in the same category of possibly trimmed or altered cards unless he felt the card belonged there. Doing so to an unaltered card would reduce the amount of income for his consignor (and himself) and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do this (at least intentionally). <br /><br />If someone has the cards in hand and looks at them and does their best to tell you that the cards are probably altered then the cards are probably altered. <br /><br />Looking at a scan of a card and making a determination that the card might not altered and purchasing it for your personal collection is one thing - purchasing this card for your personal collection and finding out it is trimmed and then trying to resell it without disclosing the alterations is another. I guess trying to get something cheap and reselling it without disclosing the alterations could be construed as deceitful (and a bad way of doing business). <br /><br /><br />The following is the item descritption from the auction (in question) at the beginnig of this thread:<br /><br /><font color="red">This week we are running a huge lot of vintage cards, some very old and very scarce. They all have come from a single collection, the type of collection that was put together long ago, well before the days of grading companies, in a time when collectors were more interested in finding the card than in its condition. Make no mistake, many of the cards in this collection are in very low grades. So low, in fact, that I won't even apply a grade of my own, just show big scans and let you take a look. <b>In fact, I'd go so far as to say every raw card this week is altered or colored in some way (not in a devious way, but most likely, guaging by where I got these, they were cut to fit into those old plastic sheets of the early 1970s - vintage trimming) that would make it "un-gradeable", but regardless of the poor grades there are some very desirable vintage cards in this collection and we're going to make some hard-core collectors very happy this week.</b> <br /><br />This card has outstanding color and good focus, bright white borders and mostly-sharp edges with just some minor softness on the left. Cut is a little awkward and there is a tiny spot of paper loss on the back that you can see. 1910 E98 "Set of 30" Hughie Jennings, Detroit Tigers, Hall of Fame. NM book value is $600.</font> <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian McQueen</b><p><br />Andrew,<br /><br />The seller actually purchased this card from me just a few weeks ago. I can verify that it's not trimmed and is authentic. It was a part of the large Mastronet auction of 43 e107s last August. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

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Posted By: <b>Mike Williams</b><p>Dear fullcountbcc,<br /><br />I apologize, but I have to cancel your bid on the George Close Candy John McGraw card. I have discovered that it is apparently trimmed top to bottom. Card measures perfectly side to side at 1-1/2? (no trimming on side borders for sure) but only measures 2-5/8? top to bottom when it should measure 2-3/4?. So apparently slightly trimmed top to bottom. I am going to cancel your bid then drastically lower the minimum and buy-it-now prices. Please check again. Thanks!<br /><br />Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!<br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>His McGraw and Mack indicate some "vintage trimming" now. He still maintains there is no trimming on the Jennings and guarantees it will grade. I am sorely tempted to buy it, send it to SGC, have it rejected and then see what he will do but I have the bad feeling I will be S.O.L. (Southern expression).<br />There was an E98 Bridwell in that group Will Hays sold and I bought it under the impression it was probably trimmed, although it looks the least trimmed of the group. I paid a little more than I should have because pgatourace was busy running me up on it. I'll be o.k. with it in a top loader instead of a slab. All I wanted with this post was to alert the posters here of a problem. Looks like as knowledgeable a collector as Mike Williams fell for the first misleading ad on McGraw.<br />Glad, things were changed, even partially. We all need to help each other on these things. When I got back in the hobby in the mid 80's I bought a VG '55 Killebrew rookie from a card shop after the dealer assured me the card was rare and you just couldn't find one without a crease. From those days of innocence I have become much more knowledgeable by reading, studying, buying, selling vintage material. The posts on this board and the old Full Count Board have been invaluable in that learning process as well as emails to and from a lot of guys here.<br />To all of you, Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday season!<br />tbob

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Posted By: <b>Mike Williams</b><p>Bob...Don't tell John I told you, but it was he that bid <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Take care all!<br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>I was disappointed as I had planned on bidding on some of his Texas-related items and even having him chase down some special interest items for me. So I told him I was through dealing with him. His canned response:<br /><br />"I don't believe this card is trimmed. I would not have bid on it if I did. The only ones I bid on that I believe are definitely trimmed are the (3) 1910 American Caramel Set C cards. They are cut very awkwardly. The other cards were not identified as trimmed. Read Will Hays' ad on those cards. He says he'd go "so far to say that every card is altered or colored in some way." Then on the specific card offered, he doesn't mention trimming at all. And the card measures perfectly. If there was an alteration here, it wasn't a trim. I only bid on the ones I felt were untrimmed. Mr. Hays only said that he believed all cards were altered. They may be, but they certainly were not all trimmed. The 1910 American Caramel Set C cards are definitely trimmed. The others measure out correctly. I would've listed them as trimmed if they had not measured correctly upon receipt. Again, this card was not identified as trimmed, only listed among a group of possibly trimmed and altered. "